Fresh Air: “‘Merrily We Roll Along,’ From Flop To Hit”
Date: November 27, 2025
Host: Terry Gross
Guests: Jonathan Groff (Tony-winning star of the revival, “Frank”), Maria Friedman (Tony-nominated director)
Episode Overview
This episode of Fresh Air explores the remarkable journey of Stephen Sondheim’s 1981 musical Merrily We Roll Along, tracing its path from infamous Broadway flop to celebrated, Tony-winning revival. Terry Gross revisits her conversation with Jonathan Groff and Maria Friedman as a filmed version of the 2023 hit revival is about to open in cinemas. The discussion unpacks the revival’s creative process, the show’s emotional themes, Sondheim’s songwriting, and its contemporary resonance for both performers and audiences.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
The Show’s Structure, Story, and Legendary Music
- The musical tells the story of three friends—Frank (Groff), Charlie (Daniel Radcliffe), and Mary (Lindsay Mendez)—moving backward through 20 years of fractured dreams and shifting relationships.
- Despite its initial short run (16 performances), Merrily We Roll Along developed cult status, largely because of Sondheim’s "hummable" and emotionally rich score.
- The 2023 revival achieved major accolades, including multiple Tony Awards and nominations, and is celebrated for its fresh, heartfelt approach.
The Power and Function of Sondheim’s Songwriting
- Syncopation and Character: Maria Friedman describes how Sondheim’s musical choices, especially syncopation, are deeply tied to character and storytelling rather than style for its own sake.
“The syncopation is about the edginess of the way they feel. It's not just there as a kind of add on. It's driven by the narrative.”
—Maria Friedman [04:57]
- The Life in the Pauses: Groff highlights the subtextual power in Sondheim’s rhythmic pauses.
“Maria, oftentimes in rehearsal, would talk with us about how the pauses are just as, if not more important than the notes... There's almost like a playfulness I find in the pauses...”
—Jonathan Groff [05:48]
The Revival’s Approach & Sondheim’s Legacy
- Previous attempts at reviving Merrily had mixed results. Sondheim and collaborators insisted Friedman avoid referencing the original failed version, focusing instead on a new, authentic take.
"They themselves had rejected the old version... They were starting afresh. A couple of people have taken bits from the old one; that was just an absolute no go with Steve."
—Maria Friedman [07:34]
- Opening night felt momentous, marked by a profound audience silence rather than just applause, indicating deep engagement:
“The success you could hear in the silence... There’s some lines that happen 2 hours and 40 minutes into an evening... and when you feel those land, it's like, whoa. These people are really listening.”
—Jonathan Groff [09:49, 10:15]
Emotional Intensity and Staying Present
- Groff and Friedman discuss the emotional toll and catharsis of performing Merrily hundreds of times, revealing how authenticity and presence keep performances fresh.
"Instead of it getting rote... it just goes deeper and deeper and deeper."
—Jonathan Groff [13:43]
- Friedman emphasizes the importance of an actor’s adaptability:
“We have one tool that is our very, very best friend as an actor, and that’s staying present... it makes you richer and deeper. And hopefully, ultimately, they come back to something that you need and want, that—it's a conversation. It's a constant conversation.”
—Maria Friedman [13:45]
Sondheim’s Innovation: Reverse Chronology & Song Reprises
- Merrily We Roll Along famously moves backward in time, with songs reprised to shifting, poignant effect (“Not a Day Goes By”).
“If I’m gonna write the show that goes backwards in time, we'll start with the reprises. That is to say, start with the variation on the theme and then go back to the theme. And that's what happens here...”
—Stephen Sondheim [37:39]
Exploring “Our Time” and the Passage of Youth
- Our Time marks the show’s nostalgic hope at the story’s chronological beginning (but play’s ending), highlighting both characters’ and actors’ yearning.
“When I've made my way through the story and I get to the... I feel like I am 18 years old. I feel full of hope... looking out at this audience on Broadway like 40 plus years later... and it feels like anything is possible.”
—Jonathan Groff [17:59, 20:06]
Navigating Onstage Emotion
- On learning to manage real tears versus performing, Groff muses on the balance between emotional truth and the need to deliver the show.
“Connecting to the importance of telling the story and communicating the ideas was essential in getting me over that kind of crying that makes it unable to speak.”
—Jonathan Groff [23:26]
- Friedman counters that tears—whether from joy or sorrow—can serve the performance when authentic:
“A beautiful sunset, a moment where I'm sharing ecstasy with friends... that will make me cry. So if that's what Jonathan feels... let it happen. Why not?”
—Maria Friedman [25:22]
The Casting Journey
- Friedman describes serendipity in casting both Groff (a meaningful visit to Sondheim’s house) and Daniel Radcliffe (“he is Charlie”), following keen artistic alignment.
Sondheim’s Hands-On Direction & Actor Guidance
- Friedman recounts Sondheim’s collaborative, detail-obsessed directing during the 90s London revival, encouraging flexibility (even changing song keys) and emotional honesty.
“He would sit cross-legged, looking into my eyes... just going, nope. What are you thinking? Nope. What's that? What are you doing? What are you thinking?"
—Maria Friedman [30:50]
- Sondheim pushed against self-indulgence in performance, insisting actors evoke emotional response in the audience, not just themselves.
"It's not for you to cry, it's for the audience to cry."
—Maria Friedman, quoting Sondheim [34:19]
Personal Connections to Sondheim
- Sondheim’s influence on Friedman extended to her personal life—he became godfather to her child after she faced a serious illness.
“What it meant to me was everything. I asked him whether he would be, you know, godfather to either one of my children... He was happy. He was happy.”
—Maria Friedman [44:26]
Comparing Roles: Hamilton vs. Merrily
- Groff contrasts the solitary, comedic performance in Hamilton with the interconnected, emotionally demanding role of Frank.
“Theater for me is—it's almost religious... to be inside of something where you can play everything... the therapy of that we get every night to scream... and lean into the joy... it really is the gift of gifts.”
—Jonathan Groff [45:33]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
“The spaces are so delicious to play in the writing of the music... The pauses in between the notes and understanding the life that happens in those pauses are so major.”
—Jonathan Groff [05:48] -
“The success you could hear in the silence.”
—Jonathan Groff [09:49] -
“He always would say, for God's sake, don't do it for me, do it for you, and I'll come and see it, and if I like it, I'll let you know, and if I don't, trust me, I'll let you know.”
—Maria Friedman on Sondheim [08:42] -
“Write what you know...”
—Frank’s advice, as described by Groff [11:05] -
“He was very much, you know, he was a great friend to those of us lucky enough to [know him]. I don't want to own him... What it meant to me was everything.”
—Maria Friedman on Sondheim as godfather [43:09]
Key Timestamps
| Timestamp | Segment / Discussion | |-----------|---------------------| | 00:17 | Episode setup, original flop to Tony-winning revival | | 02:56 | “Old Friends” song excerpt (Groff & Friedman) | | 04:57 | Sondheim’s syncopation and musical storytelling (Friedman) | | 05:48 | Groff on the importance of pauses in Sondheim’s music | | 07:34 | Why revive Merrily: rejecting the original vision (Friedman) | | 08:42 | Opening night and the power of silence in theater | | 09:49 | Audience reaction and show’s emotional arc (Groff) | | 11:05 | Key lines about writing and emotional impact | | 13:43 | Staying fresh/recent through presence (Groff & Friedman) | | 16:43 | “Our Time” song and its meaning (Groff) | | 17:59 | Emotional resonance and acting inside Merrily | | 23:26 | Managing onstage emotion (Groff & Friedman) | | 26:06 | Casting stories: Jonathan Groff and Daniel Radcliffe (Friedman) | | 30:25 | Sondheim’s hands-on directing (Friedman) | | 34:19 | Sondheim insisting “it’s not for you to cry, it’s for the audience” | | 37:39 | Sondheim on writing reprises and reverse chronology | | 39:37 | “Not a Day Goes By” (both versions) | | 43:09 | Sondheim as godfather – personal reflections (Friedman) | | 45:33 | Groff on Hamilton vs. Merrily roles | | 47:50 | Closing appreciations |
Conclusion
Through candid storytelling and insightful reflection, this Fresh Air episode captures how Merrily We Roll Along was transformed from misunderstood flop to a resounding artistic triumph. Jonathan Groff and Maria Friedman’s deep affection for Sondheim and intricate understanding of the material breathe fresh meaning into its ever-relevant story of friendship, ambition, loss, and hope—reminding listeners of the enduring power of theater to both reflect and shape our lives.