Fresh Air: Michael Shannon Gets A Turn Playing Good Guys
Podcast: Fresh Air (NPR)
Host: Dave Davies
Guest: Michael Shannon
Release Date: November 26, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Dave Davies interviews acclaimed actor Michael Shannon, exploring his latest roles as real-life “good guys” in the Netflix series Death by Lightning (playing President James Garfield) and the film Nuremberg (as Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson). Known for his portrayals of brooding or villainous characters, Shannon reflects on tackling historical figures fighting for democracy and justice. The conversation also touches on his music collaborations, notably his REM cover band, and iconic past roles in Revolutionary Road, Boardwalk Empire, and The Iceman.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Fresh Territory: Playing Historical “Good Guys”
- Casting against type: Michael Shannon usually plays darker roles; these projects surprised both him and audiences.
- Shannon: “Typically with a project like Nuremberg, I think when people hear that I’m in Nuremberg, they assume I’m playing a Nazi. And… Death by Lightning… they assume I’m playing the assassin. So I guess it’s nice to surprise people.” (02:02)
- On whether casting him was an intentional subversion: He attributes it mostly to “dumb luck” but appreciates the opportunity.
2. Death by Lightning & The Forgotten President
- James Garfield's legacy: Shannon discusses how Garfield—a little-remembered figure—offered a lens on a lost era.
- Reading Candice Millard’s book inspired his performance: “If you’re curious about how we might get out of this quagmire we’re currently in, it might behoove people to take a look at this period in our nation’s history.” (03:27)
- Representation and physical transformation: Shannon didn’t grow the full beard; credit goes to the skilled hair and makeup team.
- Wardrobe impacts performance: “A lot of the vests I wear have these very stiff fronts… So it does do something to your posture.” (05:06)
- Contrast between rural and presidential Garfield: He notes the physical and symbolic differences when playing Garfield on his farm versus in the White House.
3. Portraying Presidential Integrity
- Civil service reform and resistance to corruption: Garfield fought spoils and patronage systems.
- Clip: Garfield’s stern speech (07:13)
- “Gentlemen, calm yourselves this instant or I will expel you from this building for good… I made a vow to end the rot in our government… This is not how democracy endures....”
- Clip: Garfield’s stern speech (07:13)
- Appealing to legacy and ego: Shannon reflects, “It’s a shame that you have to appeal to people’s ego to get them to do the right thing. It shouldn’t really be ultimately because you’re concerned about how you’re remembered. It should be… about the future.” (08:38)
4. The Challenge of Nuremberg
- Robert Jackson’s ambitions and obstacles
- “It was the first time in our civilization’s history that there was an international tribunal... And it was an important precedent that he established.” (14:35)
- Clip: Jackson’s confrontation with Army psychiatrist (10:21)
- “If we just shoot these men, we make them martyrs… I’m gonna put Herman Goering on the stand and I’m gonna make him tell the world what he did so that it can never… This war ends in a courtroom.”
- Improvising justice: Davies and Shannon discuss the novelty of “crimes against humanity” and the lack of prior international legal frameworks.
- “I believe it was the first time that anybody had been charged with crimes against humanity. I don’t think that was a term that existed prior to this trial.” (14:50)
5. On-Set Dynamics and Filmmaking Choices
- The Nuremberg trial scene (15:55): Filmed as a continuous, 20-page courtroom sequence with four cameras; both Crowe and Shannon preferred this approach for authenticity and dramatic energy.
- Shannon: “To break the scene up would deflate the momentum… I just always am a big fan of getting lost in a scene if and when I can.” (16:12)
- Emotional resonance for Hungarian extras: Many had personal or familial connections to European 20th-century history. After tense scenes, applause from the extras reinforced the impact.
6. Reflections on Past Iconic Roles
Revolutionary Road (2008)
- Clip: Unfiltered honesty at a 1950s dinner (22:35–24:26)
- Working with Mendes, DiCaprio, and Winslet: “It was just one of the most sublime situations you could hope for.... I was playing someone who really didn’t give a rat’s butt about anything. So, it was okay to let go.” (24:41)
- Getting Oscar-nominated for a small role: Opened doors, including to Boardwalk Empire.
Boardwalk Empire
- Playing Nelson Van Alden: Began as a righteous “avenging angel;” evolved into a much darker, tortured figure.
- Impact of TV fame: Developed a more personal relationship with the audience.
- Typecasting? Shannon insists his characters feel distinct, even when others perceive a pattern of darkness: “What’s similar is it’s me… I guess I’m a big fella with a giant head and it’s not too difficult for me to seem intimidating, I suppose, but it couldn’t be further from what I’m actually like.” (29:30)
The Iceman (2012)
- Acting with Ray Liotta: “I was a little weak in the knees, I suppose, but I got over it… The issue was I had to be scarier.” (32:19)
7. Music and Performance
- Touring with Jason Narducci performing REM albums: Describes it as joyful and intertwined with his creative process.
- Music’s influence on acting: “They’re very interwoven… Particularly when I’m doing theater, I rely on music to inspire me and to give me energy to perform.” (36:12)
- REM’s approval: Band members have watched and even performed with Shannon’s group, especially at Athens, GA shows.
8. Looking Forward
- Next projects and future learning: Preparing another REM anniversary tour (for “Life’s Rich Pageant”) and pondering his next acting job.
- “I still feel like I have so much to learn. There’s so much not just about acting, but about life and the world.” (30:09)
Notable Quotes and Moments
-
On casting expectations:
“When people hear that I’m in Nuremberg, they assume I’m playing a Nazi… So I guess it’s nice to surprise people.”
— Michael Shannon (02:02) -
On historical relevance:
“If you’re curious about how we might get out of this quagmire we’re currently in, it might behoove people to take a look at this period in our nation’s history.”
— Michael Shannon (03:27) -
As Garfield confronting corruption (clip):
“I made a vow to end the rot in our government… This is not how democracy endures. This is wrong. And all of us know. This is our fight. One day, years from now, each one of us will be judged by what we do in this moment. How will they talk about us, I wonder?”
— Michael Shannon as President Garfield (07:13) -
On persuading with ego vs principle:
“It’s a shame that you have to appeal to people’s ego to get them to do the right thing...it should be more that you’re concerned about the future of the next generation and the generation that follows…”
— Michael Shannon (08:38) -
On the significance of Nuremberg:
“It was the first time in our civilization’s history that there was an international tribunal, I believe. And it was an important precedent that he established. I wish that it was being honored more fervently nowadays.”
— Michael Shannon (14:35) -
On his own reputation as an actor:
“I have this annoying proclivity to see all the characters I play as distinct and unique individuals… What’s similar is it’s me… but it couldn’t be further from what I’m actually like.”
— Michael Shannon (29:30) -
On acting and music:
“They’re very interwoven… Particularly when I’m doing theater, I rely on music to inspire me and to give me energy to perform.”
— Michael Shannon (36:12) -
On continual growth:
“I still feel like I have so much to learn. There’s so much not just about acting, but about life and the world.”
— Michael Shannon (30:09)
Segment Timestamps
- (00:17–02:02): Introduction & role overview
- (02:02–04:04): On being cast against type
- (04:04–06:10): Getting into President Garfield’s character
- (07:13–08:16): Garfield’s White House confrontation (audio clip)
- (08:27–09:25): Reflections on leadership, ego, and legacy
- (10:21–12:27): Nuremberg: Jackson’s confrontation with the army psychiatrist (audio clip)
- (12:42–15:08): Portraying Robert Jackson and inventing international law
- (15:55–17:36): Filming the dramatic Nuremberg trial scene
- (17:36–18:54): Excerpt: Showdown with Hermann Goering (with Russell Crowe) (audio clip)
- (19:16–20:12): Audience reactions on set; resonance for Hungarian extras
- (22:35–24:26): Revolutionary Road dinner scene (audio clip)
- (24:41–25:40): Working with Mendes/DiCaprio/Winslet & Oscar nomination
- (26:09–29:30): Boardwalk Empire: Role, character arc, and audience reactions
- (31:48–32:28): The Iceman: Working with and intimidating Ray Liotta
- (35:07–35:56): Musical performance: “Driver 8” (REM cover)
- (36:12–37:38): Music’s influence on acting and relationships with REM
- (37:40–38:51): Upcoming projects: Football film (Mr. Irrelevant) and REM tour
Tone and Style
The conversation is thoughtful, down-to-earth, and laced with self-deprecating humor. Shannon is earnest, reflective about his career and roles, and passionate both about acting and music. Davies’ questions are informed and inviting, encouraging introspection and storytelling.
This episode is a must-listen for fans of Michael Shannon, those interested in character acting, American history on screen, or the intersection of music and performance. Shannon’s nuanced discussion of leadership, justice, artistic anxiety, and continuous learning gives rare insight into the mind of one of today’s most compelling actors.