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- [00:01]
Announcer
This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet terms apply. See capitalone.com bank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC this is FRESH AIR.
- [00:18]
Dave Davies
I'm Dave Davies. Our guest today, actor Michael Shannon has appeared in nearly 100 movies and television productions, perhaps best known for playing brooding, villainous or unhinged characters like Agent Nelson Van Alden, HBO's Boardwalk Empire. But Shannon's range is far broader, and his two latest projects find him playing real life historical characters engaged in noble pursuits. In the film Nuremberg, he plays the U.S. supreme Court justice who organized the international tribunal to try Nazi leaders for war crimes after the Second World War, serving as lead prosecutor in the ensuing trial. And in the new Netflix series Death by Lightning, he's President James Garfield, who fought against corrupt Washington politicians for civil service reform before being assassinated only four months in new office. Michael Shannon earned Oscar nominations for his performances in the films Revolutionary Road and Nocturnal Animals. He's also appeared in the films Take Shelter, Knives out, the Shape of Water and man of Steel, among many others, and in the Showtime series George and Tammy. He also formed an indie rock band and has collaborated with musician Jason Narducci and in performing songs from several albums of the group R.E.M. we'll talk about that. I spoke to Michael Shannon last Thursday. Well, Michael Shannon, welcome back to FRESH air. It's been a while.
- [01:42]
Michael Shannon
Oh, it's my pleasure, Dave. Thanks for having me.
- [01:45]
Dave Davies
You know, you've had a lot of roles and as I said, in many of the better known ones, your characters are unhinged or villainous. In these films, you play not just good guys, but, you know, real historical characters fighting battles to right wrongs, strengthen democracy. Do you think this was intentional to cast you in these roles?
- [02:02]
Michael Shannon
Oh, gosh, I don't know. So much of what has happened in my career just seems like dumb luck. You know, I don't know what got into these people's heads to look my way for these things, but I sure am grateful that they thought of me. You know, I guess typically with a project like Nuremberg, I think when people hear that I'm in Nuremberg, they assume I'm playing a Nazi. And, and when they hear about Death by Lightning, they assume I'm playing the assassin. So I guess it's nice to surprise people.
- [02:37]
Dave Davies
All right. Well, you know, you play President James Garfield, as we mentioned in Death by Lightning. That's the Netflix series. He was elected in 1880. What drew you to this project?
- [02:49]
Michael Shannon
Well, it started with Candace's book, Destiny of the Republic.
- [02:53]
Dave Davies
Candice Millard. Yeah, she's been on our show. Terrific historian. Yeah.
- [02:57]
Michael Shannon
And for anybody who watches the program and gets a kick out of it, I highly suggest you read the book, if you haven't already, because it's very captivating and very informative and illuminating. But I find that a lot of people really don't know much about this period. It's kind of sandwiched between the Civil War and the World wars and the Depression, you know, which are all, I guess, more inherently dramatic periods. But I think this period is really worth studying and looking at because the country seemed very lost at sea, as Garfield hints at in his address at the Republican convention. And it's easy, I think, to feel that way now. So if you're curious about how we might get out of this quagmire we're currently in, it might behoove people to take a look at this period in our nation's history.
- [04:05]
Dave Davies
Yeah, and it's interesting because Garfield was kind of an accidental hero. I mean, he was initially going to nominate someone else for the presidency, and the convention got deadlocked, and people were so captivated by his speech, they turned to him. You know, I didn't remember anything about James Garfield. I'm sure most of us don't. But when I saw you in that suit and that big beard and, you know, that long coat and vest and bow tie, I thought, yes, that's the picture we've seen of James Garfield. Talk a little bit about physically occupying the character. Did you grow that big beard?
- [04:38]
Michael Shannon
I literally could not grow that beard. Even if you gave me five years, it wouldn't look anything like that. But we had such a brilliant team of hair and makeup and wardrobe, and they just. They do their magic, you know.
- [04:58]
Dave Davies
Did you find you're carrying yourself differently? I mean, did you feel like a president? Did people treat you with deference on the set?
- [05:06]
Michael Shannon
Yeah, I mean, it was a very happy set. And, you know, we shot in Budapest, Hungary. And it was interesting because it's not their history, you know, and most of the crew was Hungarian, but they took it very seriously, as if it were their own story they were telling. But, yeah, the wardrobe, you know, a lot of the vests I wear have these very stiff fronts to them, and the buttons are all studs. So if you move too much, the studs pop out of the little holes. So it does do something to your posture.
- [05:48]
Dave Davies
You're a little more like a statue than an Active human. Yeah.
- [05:53]
Michael Shannon
Although it was fun. What was fun about it is the contrast between that and then you see him on his farm and he's actually quite rugged in the beginning. I mean, comparatively speaking, anyway.
- [06:07]
Dave Davies
Right, right. Different era when a real farmer could be in Congress.
- [06:11]
Michael Shannon
Yeah, exactly.
- [06:12]
Dave Davies
Well, I want to play a clip and to set this up. Garfield was a Republican, and the Republican Party had been the dominant party in Washington for years. But it was a party beset by corruption. You know, patronage, employment, self dealing were kind of the rule of the day. There was no such thing as civil service, which Garfield was determined to change. And the scene we're going to listen to is where Garfield was. Had been president a short time and his opponents within the party were blocking all of his cabinet appointments in the Senate because he refused to give these corrupt politicians the control of key federal jobs, especially the port collector in New York because that was a big center of money and patronage. Anyway, in this scene, there's a bunch of senators and cabinet members gathered in the White House and they're all arguing with each other because you as Garfield are determined to stick with this fight that they think he's never going to win. They think he should just give in and play ball with the machine. You've been listening quietly while they argue, and then you finally erupt with a stern message. Let's listen.
- [07:14]
Michael Shannon
Gentlemen, calm yourselves this instant or I will expel you from this building for good. That includes you, Mr. Secretary. Now, I made a vow to end the rot in our government. Spoils, patronage, call it what you want, it's no good. Do nothing. Siphoning taxpayer money for jobs that don't even exist. Elected officials brazenly peddling their influence at auctions. This is not how democracy endures. This is wrong. And all of us know. This is our fight. One day, years from now, each one of us will be judged by what we do in this moment. How will they talk about us, I wonder?
- [08:17]
Dave Davies
And that's our guest, Michael Shannon in the new Netflix series Death by Lightning. That's a powerful speech. I want to talk a little about that moment.
- [08:27]
Michael Shannon
You know, it's interesting. I know we're not talking about it right now, but it draws a comparison to something that Robert Jackson says in Nuremberg when he's talking to the Pope.
- [08:37]
Dave Davies
That's your character, right? Yeah.
- [08:39]
Michael Shannon
Yes, he tells the Pope, you know, you validated the Nazis and how will you be remembered? And, you know, sometimes I wonder how much people are really concerned about how they're remembered, in a sense. Why would that be Important. I mean, you're gone, right? But it's a shame that you have to appeal to people's ego to get them to do the right thing. It shouldn't really be ultimately because you're concerned about how you remembered. It should be more that you're concerned about the future of the next generation and the generation that follows. But if you can bend people at their ego, then you might as well take advantage of it, I guess.
- [09:25]
Dave Davies
So let's talk about Nuremberg. You play Robert Jackson, a Supreme Court justice who's the lead prosecutor in this trial trying former Nazi leaders for their crimes. You know, people of a younger generation might not be as aware of this as you and I, but he also really kind of organized the whole thing. And I thought we'd hear a clip here. You, in this clip, are speaking with the army psychiatrist who has been sent to the prison prison where these captured Nazis are being held. His job is to keep them from committing suicide, for one, and then to pursue some combination of therapy and also building psychological profiles to assist in the prosecution. And in this scene, this is well before the trial gets underway, you're telling the psychiatrist you want him to get information from Hermann Goring, the highest ranking Nazi, about their defense strategy. And the psychiatrist is resisting. The psychiatrist he's played by Rami Malek speaks first.
- [10:22]
Michael Shannon
You want me to be a spy? I want you to do your duty for your country. No, you want me to break doctor patient confidentiality. I think you already have, Doctor. We read every report. We need more. Why not just shoot them? That's what everybody wants. I mean, if you're just gonna cheat. It's not cheating. If you're asking me to betray my oath, why not just shoot them and be done with it? After the last great war, we made Germany crawl, we humiliated them, made them pay reparations they couldn't afford. We made them hate us so much that in less than two decades they went from a broken nation to near world conquerors. We have to do this right, because if we don't, if 15 years from now they come back even stronger. I don't know if we can beat them a third time. If we just shoot these men, we make them martyrs. I'm not going to allow them that. There will be no statues of them, no songs of praise. I'm gonna put Herman Goering on the stand and I'm gonna make him tell the world what he did so that it can never. You brought me here because of curry? No, I brought you here to show you that before the Bullets were fired before tens of millions of men died. All of this started with laws. This war ends in a courtroom.
- [12:28]
Dave Davies
That's our guest, Michael Shannon, with Rami Malek in the new film Nuremberg. Give us your sense of your character here, Robert Jackson, the Supreme Court justice on this historic mission. How you got into his head.
- [12:43]
Michael Shannon
You know, I was able to do some research that was helpful, a lot of reading, in addition to his work on the Nuremberg Trials. I mean, throughout his career, he was a part of so many momentous decisions in the court's history. But I feel like he's pretty plain dealing, straight shooting kind of guy, you know? And what was really fascinating to me was just how extraordinarily difficult it was for him to do something that seemed very logical and necessary. How much opposition he met at every step of the way. How many people said, you know, you shouldn't do this, or this isn't how we should handle this situation, or let's just shoot him. Which was the prevailing sentiment among a lot of the people in power in America at the time.
- [13:40]
Dave Davies
Yeah, we just finished a dreadful catastrophic war. Yeah, yeah.
- [13:44]
Michael Shannon
And then now here he is talking to this very well meaning at the time, doctor, and still just meeting so much obstruction. And it goes all the way throughout the story. And I think you finally, actually in the showdown with Guring, see him really start to lose it a little bit. Just say, why is this so difficult? It's so obvious what's happened. It seems to be so obvious what the outcome should be. Why am I having such a hard time doing this? But I'm so glad that he insisted on it. You know, it was the first time in our civilization's history that there was an international tribunal, I believe. And it was an important precedent that he established. I wish that it was being honored more fervently nowadays.
- [14:44]
Dave Davies
Right. But there really weren't these international laws before that.
- [14:46]
Michael Shannon
So he had a lot of to.
- [14:48]
Dave Davies
They were improvising a lot of it, in a way.
- [14:50]
Michael Shannon
Yeah. I mean, the charges themselves were. I believe it was the first time that anybody had been charged with crimes against humanity. I don't think that was a term that existed prior to this trial.
- [15:08]
Dave Davies
The climactic moment in the film is in the courtroom at Nuremberg, which had been reconstructed, I gather, carefully, to really be historically accurate. And you as the prosecutor, have this long exchange with Herman Goering, who is played by Russell Crowe, who just does an amazing job of it. I will say I read something interesting in the production notes. You know, scenes like this would often be shot in pieces. You know, one character makes a dramatic speech or asks a tough question, and then the reaction in response might be shot later with, you know, and then it all gets pieced together. In this case, as I understand it, four cameras were set up to capture everybody and it was shot in one long continuous take, which is closer to a real life courtroom exchange. I wonder how that affected the dynamics, the feel of it.
- [15:55]
Michael Shannon
Yeah, Russell and I had met the weekend before. We were set to shoot that scene just to go through it. And we both agreed that it would be our preference to do the entire scene without breaking it up. They had scheduled it, I believe, for three days of shooting because typically on a film set, you would not attempt to shoot that many pages in one day. It was around about, I think, a 20 page scene. And we both agreed that to break the scene up into acts, if you would, over the course of three days, would deflate the momentum and the tension of the scene. And I just always am a big fan of getting lost in a scene if and when I can. A lot of times, for me, the most difficult scenes are actually the very short scenes because sometimes it takes a minute to get your bearings, you know, and I like to get to a place where I just forget that there's a camera or anybody's filming it and it's just something happening. And so it was actually an opportunity that I relished. Some people, I think, would say, oh, you must have been so anxious about having to do so much in that fashion. But it was kind of the opposite. I think I would have been more anxious had we kept it the way they had scheduled it.
- [17:30]
Dave Davies
Why don't we just listen to a moment of this? You and Russell Crowe as Hermann Goring in this trial at Nuremberg.
- [17:37]
Michael Shannon
For the record, is there any doubt in your mind that Adolf Hitler is dead? I have no doubt. So you are aware that this makes you the only living man who can expound to us the true purposes of the Nazi party and the inner workings of its leadership. I am perfectly aware of this, sir. Your party, from the very beginning intended to overthrow the Weimar Republic. That was our firm intention. What the hell? And upon coming to power, you immediately abolished parliamentary government in Germany. We found it to be no longer necessary. Is that because you believe people are not capable of self government? We were elected by the people and given a mandate for change. The systems that had previously existed had brought Germany to the verge of ruin. Your own President Roosevelt said, there are certain peoples in Europe who have forsaken democracy, not because they did not wish for it, but because democracy had brought forth men who were too weak.
- [18:54]
Dave Davies
And that's our guest, Michael Shannon and Russell Crowe in the film Nuremberg. I understand that this film was shot in Budapest, as was the Netflix series Death by Lightning, and you had a big crowd of extras who were the audience in the film. I heard that after you finished a take, they burst into applause.
- [19:14]
David Biancooli
Is this true?
- [19:16]
Michael Shannon
They did. They also did that when I gave my opening statement to the tribunal. Yeah. You know, Hungary is a country that really went through a lot over the course of the 20th century between Nazi invasion and also Communist regime. And I think a lot of the people that were extras in that scene, if not directly been affected by it, had had a member of their family or previous generation affected by it. And so even if their English wasn't fluent, just to be in that room and to have an opportunity to hear these words and to see these actions, I think was very meaningful to them.
- [20:12]
Dave Davies
Let's take another break here, then we'll continue our conversation. We are speaking with Michael Shannon. He stars as President James Garfield in the new Netflix series Death by Lightning, and he plays a prosecutor trying Nazi leaders for war crimes in the new film Nuremberg. We'll talk more about his life and career after this short break. I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.
- [20:33]
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- [20:45]
Michael Shannon
See return policy@carvana.com this message comes from AT&T. America's First Network is also its fastest and most reliable based on RootMetrics. United States Root Score Report 1H 2025 tested with best commercially available smartphones on three national mobile networks across all available network types. Your experiences may var. Roodmetric's rankings are not an endorsement of AT&T. When you compare, there's no comparison AT.
- [21:13]
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- [21:48]
Dave Davies
In 2008, you were in the film Revolutionary Road, with director Sam Mendes. I have a clip I thought we'd listen to here. This is a story where Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet play a suburban couple. I guess it's the 50s, early 60s, and kind of in this conventional suburban life, they have friends in an older couple who are played by Kathy Bates and Richard Easton. And this older couple have a troubled son who's in a psychiatric hospital. That's you. And in this scene, we're gonna hear they brought him out of the hospital for an afternoon to come and visit this lovely couple. And everybody's in the living room and we're serving sandwiches. And it's the 50s, so everybody's smoking, and you kind of take over the conversation. And we'll hear Kathy Bates, who plays your mom, briefly. First, let's listen.
- [22:36]
Michael Shannon
This egg salad is delicious, April. You must tell me how you fix it. You a lawyer, Frank?
- [22:41]
David Biancooli
No.
- [22:42]
Michael Shannon
No, I'm not. I could use a lawyer. John, let's not get started again about the lawyer. Pop, couldn't you just sit there and eat your wonderful egg salad and quit horning in? See, I've got a good many questions to ask, and I'm willing to pay for the answers. Now, I don't need to be told that a man who goes after his mother with a coffee table putting himself in a weak position legally. That's obvious.
- [23:05]
Various NPR Contributors
John, come have a look out this fabulous picture window.
- [23:08]
Michael Shannon
If he hits her with it and kills her, that's a criminal case.
- [23:11]
Various NPR Contributors
Oh, look, the sun is coming out.
- [23:12]
Michael Shannon
If all he does is break the coffee table and give her a certain amount of aggravation and she decides to go to court over it, that's a civil case. Maybe we'll have a rainbow.
- [23:21]
Various NPR Contributors
John, come have a look.
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Michael Shannon
How about doing everybody a favor? How about shutting up? Settle down now. Maybe I can look into it. Recommend someone. What do you say? So, what do you do, Frank?
- [23:38]
Dave Davies
I work at Knox Business Machines, actually.
- [23:41]
Michael Shannon
You design the machines? No, make them, sell them, repair them.
- [23:46]
Various NPR Contributors
All these questions.
- [23:47]
Dave Davies
I help sell them, I guess. I work in the office.
- [23:52]
Michael Shannon
Actually, it's. Well, it's sort of a stupid job, really. There's nothing interesting about it at all. What do you do it for, then?
- [24:02]
Beatles Members (Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Ringo Starr)
Maybe Frank doesn't like being questioned by the.
- [24:04]
Michael Shannon
Oh, okay, okay, okay. I know it's none of my business, and besides, I know the answer. You want to play house, you got to have a job. You want to play very nice house, very sweet house, then you've got to have a job. You don't like Anyone comes along and says, what do you do it for? He's probably on a four hour pass from the state funny farm.
- [24:27]
Dave Davies
All agreed, that's our guest Michael Shannon, hijacking a nice pleasant conversation in the film Revolutionary Road. That's quite a cast you're with as a young actor. I mean, what do you remember about that experience?
- [24:42]
Michael Shannon
It was just one of the most sublime situations you could hope for. I mean, in addition to the cast, you've got Sam Mendes directing, you've got the astonishing Roger Deakins photographing everything. Fortunately for me, in that instance, I was playing someone who really didn't give a rat's butt about anything. So it was okay to let go. I frankly think the hardest part in that story are the parts that Leo and Kate are playing because they don't get to just say whatever comes into their head. You know, they're trying to hold on to something. And my poor fella John is not trying to hold on to anything.
- [25:31]
Dave Davies
You were only in two scenes in this movie, I think, and you got an Oscar nomination for Best Supporting Actor. Did that change things? Did that open doors?
- [25:40]
Michael Shannon
Well, I definitely think it kind of paved the way towards Boardwalk Empire. It's hard to say. I mean, a lot of it's speculation. You know, I don't know what goes through people's heads because I feel like, you know, John Givings and Nelson Alden are very different people. But I do know that I got that meeting with, with Terence Winter and Mr. Scorsese not, not long after that nomination.
- [26:10]
Dave Davies
And that led to Boardwalk Empire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, Boardwalk Empire was a long project for you, you know, over, I guess, five seasons, over four years or something like that. And you play this FBI agent, Nelson Van Alden, who, well, boy, he goes through quite a journey into some dark, dark places. Did you know where that character was going as it was coming?
- [26:33]
Michael Shannon
Yeah, sure. So first of all, just for the record, Nelson was not in the FBI. He was in the Treasury.
- [26:41]
Dave Davies
Right, right. It was revenuers back then. Yeah, yeah.
- [26:44]
Michael Shannon
But no, I didn't know. You know, I went in for the meeting with Terence Winter and Mr. Scorsese and it was presented to me that he was kind of the, the avenging angel of the whole thing, that he was a stand up fella, very devout religious individual. They didn't indicate the fall from grace so much, but it was about as broad of a story arc as you can hope for. I always kind of secretly wished that there would have been more of a phoenix rising from the ashes kind of quality to the whole thing. But he kind of never really was able to redeem himself. But, you know, it sure seemed to tickle people. And that's something that you can be proud of, I guess. Yeah, but I was very sad for him.
- [27:41]
Dave Davies
You know, that's really when I first really became aware of you as an actor, is that, you know, it is a pretty dark role. Did you find that people recognized you more and more? Casting directors were calling more and.
- [27:55]
Michael Shannon
Well, when you're on a TV show, it's a whole different ball game than doing films because you really become a part of people's routine and people develop very strong feelings about, you know, the number of times people said would come up and say, oh, I just hate you, I just hate you. I'm like, well, you actually don't even know who I am. But they get very personally involved.
- [28:23]
Dave Davies
Did it typecast you anyway as a guy who's mentally unhinged or, you know, I don't know.
- [28:29]
Michael Shannon
You know, I have this annoying proclivity to see all the characters I play as distinct and unique individuals. Now, some of them, there may be a propensity for darkness or being troubled or whatnot, but they're all very different to me. You know, even like. Like I said earlier, the difference between John Givings and Nelson Van Alden is pretty astronomical for me.
- [28:58]
Dave Davies
But Givings is the guy in Revolutionary Road.
- [29:01]
Michael Shannon
Or the difference between Nelson Van Alden and Richard Kuklinski from the Iceman is very different. What's similar is it's me. That's. The similarity is it's always me. It's always my body and my face and my, you know, and I guess, you know, I'm a big fella and I got this giant head and it's not too difficult for me to seem intimidating, I suppose, but it couldn't be further from what I'm actually like.
- [29:31]
Dave Davies
Right, right. You know, it's funny, I got a call from my son this morning who is grown and has kids, and he said, oh, today's your interview with Michael Shannon. Did you see all of the 1200 films he made? Not all, but a lot of them. I don't know, when you look back at all the career, this career you have, what do you think? Is it amazing to you?
- [29:53]
Michael Shannon
I'm always reminded of something that I believe is attributed to Bob Dylan. This notion that what he's done in the past isn't terribly compelling to him on a day to day basis. He's not sitting around listening to Blonde on Blonde and saying, boy, I really crushed it. You know, he's thinking about what he's doing now, and I kind of look at it that way, too, but it can give you a little bit of vertigo. If you actually look back at everything and think, oh, my God, I was a part of all of that. It makes you a little dizzy, for real. But it's also the past, you know, And I'm always thinking, well, what can I do now that would be worth a darn, you know, and keep pushing myself. And I still feel like I have so much to learn. There's so much not just about acting, but about life and the world. And I guess the thing I'm most grateful for in my career is how much I've learned about the world through acting. And when I look at these projects that I have now, Nuremberg and Death by Lightning, I learned so much. I would have never known anything about Robert Jackson had I not done Nuremberg. And I probably wouldn't have known anything about President Garfield had I not done Death by Lightning. So I just want to keep discovering and learning.
- [31:33]
Dave Davies
You played a contract killer in the film the Iceman. It's based on a real guy, and Ray Liotta was in the film. He's done a lot of mob films. He's quite a tough character in a lot of them. What was that experience like?
- [31:48]
Michael Shannon
Oh, gosh. I mean, that was a thrill. You know, I'm as big a fan of Goodfellas as anybody. And also the movie Something Wild, the Johnson Demi film. I remember seeing him in that and thinking, that's the scariest human being I've ever seen in my life. And he had those beautiful blue eyes, those ice water eyes, you know, just very powerful eyes. I was a little weak in the knees, I suppose, but I got over it.
- [32:20]
Dave Davies
Was Ray Liotta a scary guy in any way?
- [32:23]
Michael Shannon
Well, I mean, the issue was is that I, you know, I had to be scarier, so.
- [32:28]
Dave Davies
Right.
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Michael Shannon
And there's a scene in the movie, if you see it, where he points a gun at my face and I. I'm completely expressionless, like, okay, go ahead. And it spooks him out so much that he. He leaves me alone. And I think I actually managed to spook him out for real.
- [32:50]
Dave Davies
How many people have done that? I imagine.
- [32:52]
Michael Shannon
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:54]
Dave Davies
We're going to take another break here. Let me reintroduce you. We are speaking with Michael Shannon. He stars as President James Garfield in the new Netflix series Death by Lightning, and he plays a prosecutor trying Nazi leaders for war crimes in the new film Nuremberg we'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH air.
- [33:13]
Michael Shannon
This is Ira Glass of this American Life. Do you know our show? Okay. Well, either way, I'm gonna tell you about it. We make stories that hopefully pull you in at the beginning with funny moments and feelings and people in surprising situations. And then you just wanna find out what is gonna happen and cannot stop listening. That's right. I'm talking about stories that make you miss appointments. This is American life. Wherever you get your podcasts this Thanksgiving week, up first from NPR News is your companion with news of traveling and shopping and Black Friday and the health of the economy and all the other news you need to start your day each morning, listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [34:00]
Dave Davies
Hey, it's Ray from Car Talk.
- [34:02]
Michael Shannon
Are you tired of all the depth and thoughtful care that goes to NPR shows? Want some good old fashioned goofing around.
- [34:09]
David Biancooli
And stumbling to figure out what's going on?
- [34:11]
Michael Shannon
Well, I've been taking occasional car questions again.
- [34:14]
Dave Davies
You can hear them by signing up.
- [34:16]
Michael Shannon
For NPR along with lots of other bonus content.
- [34:19]
Dave Davies
Just go to plus.NPR.org this is FRESH AIR. And we're speaking with actor Michael Shannon. He has a busy acting career, but he's also revived his long standing interest in music. For several years, he and musician friend Jason Narducci have assembled a band and toured, performing covers of whole albums by several artists, focusing in particular on REM here's Shannon and Narduzzi performing the REM song Driver 8 on the Tonight Show. Michael Shannon is the lead sing.
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Michael Shannon
The walls are filled up stone by stone, Fields divided one by one. And the train conductor Sailors take a break, drive a raid, drive a raid, Take a break. We've been on this ship too long. And the drink ductus is Take a break, driver a driver take a break. We can't reach our destination but still a way is away.
- [35:46]
Beatles Members (Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Ringo Starr)
But it's still the way is away.
- [35:49]
Michael Shannon
Sol Tree House on the outskirts of the bar power lines.
- [35:57]
Dave Davies
And that is our guest actor Michael Shannon singing Driver 8 with a band including Jason Narducci. That band sounds tight, I gotta say. Do you think that music has informed or affected your acting in any way? You know, rhythm, pace, any of that?
- [36:13]
Michael Shannon
Oh, definitely, yes. They're very interwoven. Particularly when I'm doing theater, I rely on music to inspire me and to give me energy to perform. A lot of times I listen to music on my way to the theater before the show. I mean, I have so many albums on my phone that I'm constantly having to delete things because I'm running out of storage in my memory. But I just, I like to have as much music as close to me as possible at all times.
- [36:53]
Dave Davies
Yeah, yeah. REM Is aware of your doing this and I think some of the band members showed up at a performance once and went on stage with you. Right?
- [37:02]
Michael Shannon
I, they've all, yeah, when we, when we play in Athens, Georgia, we've done two tours so far and when we go to Athens, they, they all make a point of coming to that show, which is really sweet and special and mind blowing. And there have been other shows where one of them might make an appearance, depending on where we are in the country. But yeah, they're definitely interested in it and they've been unbelievably gracious about the whole thing.
- [37:38]
Dave Davies
So what's next for you?
- [37:40]
Michael Shannon
Oh, goodness. Well, we are going to do yet another REM tour. These tours have been commemorating the 40th anniversary of particular albums. So the first one was for Murmur, REM's first full length album, and the second one we did was the 40th anniversary of Fables of the Reconstruction. So now we are going to go back out on the road with the 40th anniversary of an album called Life's Rich Pageant. And that tour is in February and March. In terms of my actual day job, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing next. I did shoot a film earlier this year called Mr. Irrelevant, which is a football movie in which I play the coach, Bill Parcells. Right. And that will be coming out, I assume sometime next year. But other than that, I don't have anything in the can, the proverbial can. So it'll be it's as much a mystery to me as anybody else right now.
- [38:51]
Dave Davies
Michael Shannon, thank you so much for speaking with us again.
- [38:54]
Michael Shannon
Thanks for having me, Dave.
- [38:56]
Dave Davies
Michael Shannon is a two time Academy Award nominee. He stars as President James Garfield in the new Netflix series Death by Lightning, and he plays a prosecutor trying Nazi leaders for war crimes in the new film Nuremberg. Coming up, David Biancooley reviews a revived and expanded TV documentary series about the Beatles on Disney. This is FRESH air.
- [39:19]
Various NPR Contributors
Wicked was a smash hit that earned Oscar nominations for Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo. But that was only the first half of the story. Wicked for Good is every bit as splashy as the first installment, but can it match the impact of its predecessor and live up to the hype? Listen to Pop Culture Happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get.
- [39:38]
Michael Shannon
Your podcasts on NPR's wildcard podcast, Suleika Jawad reflects on losing friends she met while getting treated for cancer in her 20s. And the truth is, I would experience.
- [39:51]
Dave Davies
Any amount of grief to experience those loves.
- [39:55]
Michael Shannon
Watch or listen to that Wild Card.
- [39:57]
Announcer
Conversation on the NPR app or on YouTube.
- [40:01]
Michael Shannon
PRWildcard.
- [40:04]
Dave Davies
On wait, wait, don't tell me famous actors remember their days of obscurity. Like when Pedro Pascal remembered the stress of being a waiter, the logistical labor of meeting everyone's needs in the right manner. You know, act one the water.
- [40:21]
Michael Shannon
Act two the drink.
- [40:23]
Dave Davies
Listen to Wait Wait in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts in 1995, ABC presented an eight part documentary series called the Beatles Anthology, telling the history of the band and its music in the first and only fully authorized TV biography. The only one that is until now. 30 years later, the Beatles Anthology is back with the sound and images restored and with a brand new ninth episode added at the end. Disney is presenting the newly refurbished series beginning tonight with three episodes unveiled nightly. Our TV critic David Biancooley has this review.
- [41:06]
David Biancooli
When the Beatles released the original the Beatles anthology in 1995, it was a next generation British invasion attacking on two fronts at the same time. On the one hand, there was the Music three box set Anthology collections released on CD by Apple Records full of studio outtakes and alternate versions. And on TV there was the eight hour the Beatles Anthology documentary on abc. It was shown across the globe and later released on home video. That was in 1995, 25 years after the Beatles had broken up. That documentary extended their legend and their impact for several more decades. It told the story of the group via performance, film and TV clips, and lots and lots of interviews. John Lennon, who had been shot and killed 15 years earlier, was represented in vintage interview clips. So were the other Beatles. But for the 1995 documentary, Paul McCartney, George Harrison and Ringo Starr also sat still for new interviews, separately and together. So when it comes to the key moment when John meets Paul and invites him to join his group, the Quarrymen, the documentary recounts it by having Paul in 1995 playing on guitar and singing the song he sang for John as a sort of audition when they met. Then John in an old interview is heard picking up the story. It's told the same way in the new The Beatles Anthology 2025, as in the original, only with crisper video and art.
- [42:53]
Beatles Members (Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Ringo Starr)
I get to the top, I'm too tired to rock. I was the singer and the leader. Well, I made the decision whether to have him in the group or not? Was it better to have a guy who was better than the people I had in obviously or not? And that decision was to let Paul in to make the group stronger. And I turned around to him right then on first meeting and said, do.
- [43:16]
David Biancooli
You want to join the group?
- [43:17]
Beatles Members (Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Ringo Starr)
And I think he said yes.
- [43:18]
David Biancooli
The next day, Peter Jackson and his team, who turned outtake footage from the 1970 Let it be documentary into his superb multi part Get Back Beatles miniseries for Disney plus did some of the restoration work here. So did engineer Jeff Emmerich and music producer Giles Martin, the son of Beatles producer George Martin. Their combined efforts make all the music sound so much better. For the audio release of this new Beatles Anthology 2025, they've issued a brand new fourth CD set of recordings. The remastering on all four volumes is a quantum leap forward. Listen to John Lennon on Free as a Bird and his voice no longer sounds distant and tinny. It sounds like John Lennon right there in the studio with the other Beatles.
- [44:24]
Michael Shannon
Be Free as a Bird.
- [44:31]
David Biancooli
So the new audio release definitely is worth it. Is the new TV documentary? Absolutely. There's something about the Beatles and the way they approach things that makes their output seem fresh no matter how many years have passed. The music certainly is that way. But so is this documentary. The first eight hours of the Beatles Anthology seem vibrant and exciting and not at all dated, even though it's the same content as before, only shinier. And the final hour, full of cutting room floor gems is a treat. In the original documentary, you saw and heard only one complete song from the Beatles on their first Ed Sullivan show appearance. In this new hour of The Beatles Anthology 2025, you get another, along with plenty of studio outtakes. And there's a lot of fascinating footage of Paul, George and Ringo reuniting to record new Beatle tracks in the 90s based on old demo recordings from John, along with a juicy origin story told by George of how the musical reunion came to be. It's a story that wasn't told in the 1995 documentary My Recollection.
- [45:42]
Beatles Members (Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Ringo Starr)
Now this again. You'll probably have three or four different versions of this, but Jeff Lynn and myself, we had this band called the Traveling Wilburys and we had Roy Orbison in it. And then Roy Orbison died. Nobody can replace Roy as Roy, but maybe we should have some other person. And then we thought of Elvis and somebody had talked about to the Elvis estate and they loved the idea of Elvis being in the Wilburys. The idea was that we put Elvis onto a multi track machine and then we redo the entire backing, change the chords, change the tune, whatever, and even the lyrics. And we'll then all sing this song and then when it comes to the chorus, we bring up the other and there's Elvis singing the chorus. We never did it because, I don't know, at that point I thought it seemed a bit too gimmicky. But I was talking to Yoko and telling her this idea and she said, oh, I think I've got a tape of John.
- [46:53]
David Biancooli
Jeff Lynn ended up producing those new Beatle tracks. And you can see him working here with George, Paul and Ringo. And you witness the same sort of genial vibes that were on view in Jackson's Get Back. These were men who, despite all the fame and fights and complicated lives, clearly loved one another. The Beatles Anthology 2025 ends with the three of them at George's Friar park estate, lounging on the grass. George is playing a ukulele, he and Paul are singing, and Ringo is slapping his legs in time. Instead of brand new interviews with Paul and Ringo, the documentary ends there. But it's a moment that feels not only fresh and natural, but unabashedly tender and sweet.
- [47:39]
Beatles Members (Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Ringo Starr)
Ain't she sweet?
- [47:44]
Michael Shannon
I asked you very confidentially Ain't she sweet? Cast an eye in her direction on.
- [47:54]
Beatles Members (Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Ringo Starr)
Me oh, my ain't that perfection? I repeat don't you think she's kind of sweet? Neat now ads you very confidentially Ain't she sweet?
- [48:11]
Dave Davies
Ain't she sweet? Ain't she sweet let's go. TV critic David Biancooli is writing a book about the visual artistry of the Beatles. He reviewed the Beatles Anthology, premiering tonight on Disney. On tomorrow's show, a filmed version of the 2023 Broadway revival of Stephen Sondheim's musical Merrily We Roll along, starring Daniel Radcliffe and Jonathan Groff, opens in movie theaters December 5th. It won four Tonys. We'll feature Terry's interview with Groff and the show's director, Maria F. Friedman, and hear tracks from the revival's great cast recording. I hope you can join us. FRESH Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Susan Yakundi directed today's show for Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley I'm Dave Davies.
- [49:38]
Various NPR Contributors
So I just want to check in really quick. Are you okay or are you suffering from sleep deprivation, a stack of bills, or political propaganda? If so, you may be stuck in the parent trap. On the It's Been a Minute podcast, we're diving headfirst into the anxieties of modern parenting and how that trickles out to all of us. Even if you don't have children, come find some relief. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a safe space. How often do you scroll on Zillow looking at homes?
- [50:17]
Dave Davies
There are a lot, lot of people who right now don't feel like it's in their future. At least not in their near term future.
- [50:24]
Various NPR Contributors
If homeownership is awash at this point, what's next for those of us who want a piece of the pie? Listen to It's Been a Minute on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.