Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'

Summary

Fresh Air Episode Summary: Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'

Introduction

In the December 19, 2024 episode of NPR's Fresh Air, host Terry Gross engages in a profound conversation with acclaimed writer and filmmaker Miranda July about her latest novel, All Fours. The episode delves deep into the novel's exploration of a woman's midlife crisis, fears surrounding perimenopause, and the complexities of personal transformation. Through intimate dialogue, July shares her inspirations, personal experiences, and the societal pressures that influenced her storytelling.

Writing All Fours: Themes and Inspirations

All Fours has garnered critical acclaim, securing spots on numerous best-of-the-year lists, including the New York Times and The New Yorker. The novel centers on a 45-year-old woman grappling with midlife changes, fear of losing her libido, and the anxiety of being perceived as "old." Terry Gross introduces the book as a blend of humor and poignancy, highlighting its dual perspective on the possibilities and costs of starting over.

The Fear of Portraying Perimenopause and Women's Aging

Miranda July candidly discusses her initial fears about writing All Fours. She was apprehensive about how readers would perceive her exploration of perimenopause and a woman's inner turmoil during midlife. At [03:15], July reveals, “I think fear in general was also why I wrote the book... I wanted to not write about that because so many women I admired... focused on important subjects.” However, her interactions with women and health professionals led her to realize that addressing perimenopause was intrinsically linked to broader societal issues.

Societal Pressures on Women Regarding Aging

The conversation touches on societal expectations for women to conceal their age. At [04:26], July expresses frustration, saying, “We shouldn't have to reinforce the idea that a woman getting older is a really terrible thing.” She emphasizes the importance of women owning their age and challenges the notion that aging diminishes a woman's value or attractiveness.

Co-Parenting and Personal Life Influences on the Novel

July opens up about her personal life, particularly her transition from being married to co-parenting with her ex-husband. At [13:25], she shares, “It was like an ongoing conversation with my husband... figuring out what exactly had to change and what could stay the same.” This delicate balance of maintaining family stability while embracing personal growth mirrors the protagonist's journey in All Fours.

Raising a Non-Binary Child and Its Reflection in the Book

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around July's experience as a parent to a non-binary child. At [24:55], she explains how her child's identity influenced the novel: “The child in the book is non-binary... I just went with they them.” This decision underscores the book's themes of identity and the fluidity of personal transformation. July emphasizes the importance of respecting a child's self-identification and the delicate balance of parental support without imposing one's own views.

Miranda July's Formative Years and Influence on Her Work

Exploring her past, July recounts her involvement in the punk scene during her teenage years. At [32:19], she reflects, “The thing that drew me to punk... it was an all-ages scene... I put my first plays on in a punk club.” This early exposure to a creative and unstructured environment fostered her unique narrative style and independent spirit, which are evident in her writing and filmmaking.

Experiences in the Punk Scene and Peep Show Jobs

July candidly discusses her unconventional jobs, including working at a peep show to support herself early in her career. At [34:02], she shares, “One of us is going to have to strip... that's how I started.” While initially viewing it as a means to an end, July reflects on the complexities of performing and the blurred lines between reality and exhibitionism. This experience provided her with profound insights into human sexuality and the performative aspects of identity.

Reader Reactions and Themes

The novel has resonated deeply with readers, many of whom have shared how All Fours mirrors their own inner lives. At [40:05], July mentions, “Women who while they were reading the book felt kind of exposed... they felt like they weren't alone.” Readers have praised the book for its honest portrayal of midlife struggles, creating a sense of community and validation for those experiencing similar feelings.

Conclusion

Miranda July's All Fours serves as a poignant exploration of midlife anxieties, personal transformation, and the societal pressures faced by women. Through her candid conversation on Fresh Air, July not only sheds light on the novel's themes but also offers a window into her own journey of self-discovery and acceptance. The episode underscores the universal quest for identity and the courage required to embrace change, making All Fours a compelling addition to contemporary literature.

Notable Quotes

• Miranda July on Fear and Writing:
  “I think fear in general was also why I wrote the book... I wanted to not write about that because so many women I admired... focused on important subjects.”
  [03:15]

• July on Owning Age:
  “We shouldn't have to reinforce the idea that a woman getting older is a really terrible thing.”
  [04:26]

• On Co-Parenting and Change:
  “It was like an ongoing conversation with my husband... figuring out what exactly had to change and what could stay the same.”
  [13:25]

• Regarding Her Non-Binary Child:
  “The child in the book is non-binary... I just went with they them.”
  [24:55]

• Experiences in the Punk Scene:
  “The thing that drew me to punk... it was an all-ages scene... I put my first plays on in a punk club.”
  [32:19]

• On Working at a Peep Show:
  “One of us is going to have to strip... that's how I started.”
  [34:02]

• Reader Reactions:
  “Women who while they were reading the book felt kind of exposed... they felt like they weren't alone.”
  [40:05]

This comprehensive discussion on Fresh Air provides listeners with an in-depth understanding of Miranda July's All Fours, the personal and societal themes it tackles, and the real-life experiences that shaped its creation.

Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Miranda July was a bit afraid of what people would think of her after publishing her second novel, All Fours. The book is partly about sexuality and has some very explicit sexual scenes, but that's true of many books. Her larger fear was the theme of a woman reaching midlife and entering perimenopause, the time in a woman's life when she's transitioning into menopause and is experiencing some of the many symptoms associated with that time of life. For her main character, it's the fear of losing her libido, dealing with mysterious moods and anxiety and the thought of being seen as an old woman. But the book has gotten the opposite reaction. She feared. It's on many of this year's 10 best lists, including the New York Times, in which it was described as this year's literary conversation piece, and in the New Yorker, where it was described as a study of crisis, the crisis of being How Middle Age Changes Sex, Marriage and ambition. July's moving, very funny book is at once buoyant about the possibilities of starting over and clear eyed about its costs. When our critic John Powers reviewed it, he said, I gasped in surprise at All Fours. Miranda July's hilariously unpredictable novel All Fours is sometimes described as a book about perimenopause, the transitional stage before menopause. Yet this flattens it into sociology and self help. July's mind is far too unruly and interesting for that. John goes on to describe the book as perverse, unrepentant, sometimes dirty and often laugh out loud funny. All4's story revolves around a 45 year old woman, a slightly famous artist, writer and performer who decides to take a break from the routines she's stuck in and drive from her home in LA to New York. Her husband thinks it's a good idea and even suggests the best route for the drive. But about 30 minutes away from home, she stops at a gas station and feels this electric connection to a young man there, and he seems to feel it too. They end up having an affair in a motel room she rents and redecorates, and she spends the entire three weeks there. Their affair is both sexual and chaste. They're both married. He she won't engage sexually, which would be disloyal to his wife but they touch and dance, and the intentional eroticism becomes all consuming for her. But then the three weeks are up, she returns home and has enormous trouble re entering her life as a wife and mother. Miranda July is also a filmmaker, actor, performance artist and visual artist. Miranda July, welcome to FRESH air. It's such a good book. I really enjoyed reading it and and I'm looking forward to talking with you about it. So you were afraid to write this book and what people would think of you. Elaborate on what your biggest fears were.

[Miranda July]

I mean, I think fear in general was also why I wrote the book. Like I upon turning 40, which was a few years before I started writing it, it seemed like this this grim time was suddenly approaching that was very vague, like this time of a woman who's no longer young. And I wanted to not write about that because so many women I admired, so many writers had written about more important things, right? Like, they had not focused on the people trying to shame them or the shame they felt themselves. They focused on important subjects. But the more that I got older and I started writing this book at 45, and the more that I talked to other women and gynecologists and naturopaths, the more I felt that this subject actually wasn't separate from those more important things.

[Terry Gross]

Well, one thing about getting older is I think Wikipedia has relieved the burden of that because for most people, their birth date is on the Wikipedia page. And so you can't really hide it even if you want to anymore. And I resent the fact that women especially are supposed to hide their age. Like, why can't we own it? Why can't we proclaim it? You know, why should we have to reinforce the idea that a woman getting older is a really terrible thing?

[Miranda July]

Right? I mean, we shouldn't have to reinforce it for sure, but it does. Like, I think people, I don't totally want to blame women when there's real repercussions, you know, economically, just in their sense of what's possible in the world, you know. So it's a tricky line. Like, yes, I sort of obviously I'm on the side of declaring it, but I am kind of often I'm just being honest here because so much of the book is about, like, not trying to be less ashamed than I actually am, not trying to seem less ashamed because I feel like then you can't evolve. Like, if you're hiding the place where you're actually at, then it's hard to get to the next place. So when I say I'm 50 I am always a little disappointed when the person doesn't look shocked.

[Terry Gross]

Oh. Like, oh, but you look like 35. That kind of thing.

[Miranda July]

When they just sort of are like, yeah, like, I still have that in me despite having declared all that stuff a massive construction, you know, like a best construction ever. That we become less interesting, you know, so early, so young. Right. 45. I mean, like, why was I thinking about this at 45? But I was.

[Terry Gross]

There's a line in your book where you're buying something from an older woman and you think about how you sometimes really hate old women and so.

[Miranda July]

Well, it's not. Yeah. We're gonna have to decide. Are we saying you.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, I'm sorry, the character. The character, the character.

[Miranda July]

I mean, we can get into that. But you know, the narrator's saying, so the character.

[Terry Gross]

This is where the character has gone to the hotel. She's felt this, like, erotic charge from this younger man. She's 45, he's 31. Who she met at. Who she looked at at a gas station. And he looked back at her and then they met briefly in a diner. So she's unpacking her suitcase at this motel and the reading is about what she's thinking as she's unpacking her clothes and which ones she's going to leave in the suitcase and which ones she's going to actually unpack and wear.

[Miranda July]

Right? Yeah. So she leaves the sort of more androgynous styles in the suitcase. I left these things in my suitcase in favor of my more overtly feminine and form fitting clothes. Heels and pencil skirts, cropped sweaters, shirtwaist dresses with tight belts around the smallest part of my waist. Every old thing had a modern counterbalance. Past age 40, you had to be careful with vintage. I didn't want to be mistaken for an elderly woman wearing the clothes from the 1960s of her youth. Young people especially had trouble making distinctions between ages over 40. When I got my first Patti Smith tape, horses, at 22, Smith was only 49, but I didn't think of her as a contemporary person. I wasn't even sure she was still alive because the COVID of Horses was a black and white photograph. Instead of knowing this was a stylistic choice, like vintage clothes, I unconsciously associated the record with the deep past of black and white movies. If anyone asked, I would have probably managed to assign the album to the right decade. But most of life is a vapor of unconscious associations never brought to light. A good way to check your outfit is by running past the mirror. Or better yet, make A video of yourself running past your phone. How old was that blur of a woman? Was she from the past or was she modern? And where was she going in such a hurry? I walked around Monrovia in a red shirtwaist dress and white wedge heels. The commercial areas weren't really built for walking, but there were some nice residential neighborhoods. Several times I passed teenage girls wearing backpacks, their breasts inflated by the hormones in cow's milk and barely covered by tank tops. Whenever I saw them coming, I pretended I was from another country, projecting the air of someone so foreign she could not understand or be hurt by anything American.

[Terry Gross]

Did you share a similar almost fear of older women or a dislike of them that your character has?

[Miranda July]

I think I was catching myself around this time. I kept sort of noticing what I was thinking about older women and noticing the way that I might dismiss someone or not give them sort of the full benefit of an interior life or an erotic life, or think of them as like a sad character kind of for no reason, right? Like, this is just like someone I'm seeing in passing. And by the time I was writing the book, I was aware, like, oh, that fear or hatred of older women is, of course, self hatred, you know, because I will become that. And to some degree, I already am that to people younger than me, you know, so it's like a kind of slippery.

[Terry Gross]

Your character is experiencing things and fears that relate to perimenopause, but some of the things she's experiencing, she doesn't know relate to perimenopause until she actually goes to her gynecologist. Was it that way for you, that you had symptoms of perimenopause that you were attributing to other things?

[Miranda July]

Well, I had a different experience from the narrator. I actually had this amazing doctor, Dr. Maggie Nay, who started talking with me about it in my early 40s. I may have been just 40. And she's like, look, we're gonna take your blood and see where your hormone levels are at. And that's just to get a baseline so that as you get older and things your hormone levels drop, we'll kind of understand the speed at which that's happening. And you might want to do bioidentical hormones if you want that. And I always remember at the end of describing all this, which was a longer conversation, she said, I'm so excited for you. And she didn't mean that, like, as a joke. And I not knowing anything else about this, never having had a conversation about it in any other time in my life, not having had a conversation about it ever before with anyone. I just smile. I just dumbly smiled and was like, ha. Yeah, you never know what's coming next, you know, like, this is exciting. Like go from ballet slippers to pointe shoes, you know, like it's always something new. I don't know, it didn't seem inherently bad, but then, you know, as I would talk to my friends, I was like the only one who knew anything.

[Terry Gross]

So one of the things the book is about is the feeling that you need to change your life, but not knowing how to do it and knowing that there will be consequences and rewards if you do. And part of the consequences will be for the other people in your life. If you're leaving a marriage, if you're breaking up a home in a way that will affect your young child. And I know you've experienced similar things and this might be too personal, but was there a lot you had to weigh before changing your life? Knowing that it might be the right thing for you, but there would also be consequences that everyone in your family would be facing, including you? Because I'm sure there'd be a downside as well.

[Miranda July]

Yeah, I mean, my changing life moment, it wasn't like I alone in my head was coming up with that I had to do this. It was like an ongoing conversation with my husband at the time and very slow. And we both, I think as much as we didn't want to traumatize our kid, we also didn't want to traumatize ourselves. And we were very attached to ourself and the triangle of our family. So what exactly had to change and what could stay the same? I feel like it's still changing. I mean, kind of as long as we're a family, which will hopefully be forever. You know, you've got three changing people in it whose needs are changing and who are trying to be honest. And I guess that was the big shift was like, oh, we're not going to pretend we're not changing anymore and that a lot of those changes have nothing to do with each other or this thing that we've built. But you know, as much as you worry about the kid, my biggest worry was that they wouldn't get to see me as I really was. And I say they because they're non binary. There's just one kid because I started to realize, oh, there's a whole lot of myself that happens outside the home with my best friend or in my studio alone being creative or just me alone in the world. Like, I feel like I'M starting to feel like this part that used to just be like me on a break or, you know, at work, this may be the lion's share of me. This might be kind of what I have to offer them as far as one way to live, one way to be. But actually when I go home I'm being like a smaller version and not kind of like I just less interesting to. Even to myself. Like because I was biting my tongue a lot and no one was asking me to do this, by the way. Like it's, it's very personal. I know a lot of people who. The freest they feel is. Is in their home and you know, the world is terrifying. But. And so I began to feel like something I had to do for my child. Like I need to change these circumstances so they can see who I really am.

[Terry Gross]

So this may be too personal, but please don't answer it if it is you and your former husband. Is that the right way to describe it? Lived together for a while with your child, but more as friends than as a married couple. How did that work? I think a lot of people would be curious about that because I think there are a lot of couples who separate, who remain friends, but they don't want to be romantically involved anymore and they want more freedom outside of the home. But I could see where there'd also be a lot of discomfort and tension and nervousness around each other. So if there's anything that you can offer about how that arrangement worked out.

[Miranda July]

Yeah, I mean it is interesting. I feel a little different since the book came out. Like I've now read so many emails and messages and comments on my substack about women at this point or women doing things differently or trying to figure this out that I no longer. I'm like, is there a way to answer this question that isn't specific to me because I actually don't feel like. I think at the time I felt very unique and very like no one's doing what I'm doing. And both worried by that and sort of proud. And now I'm like, no, this is incredibly widespread. At least lots of thoughts about it. And then people trying to figure out how to do it. I mean the thing of living together, it's what you're used to. Obviously that's not going to work if you're incredibly embattled, you know, but if you're not, then it is kind of an opportunity to see who the other person is a bit more like, wow, this person who is like my long time pal But I never could quite see what they were like when they're dating, you know, not that like you're necessarily getting any details or anything, but just like their energy, you know, because you were the person they were dating and now you're not. And like, yeah, there might be some sadness or strangeness about that, but you're also like, look at you. You're a person. Like, I never really gave you all of that. And meanwhile, you're also getting it, too. Like, they're seeing you as a person more completely. And nothing you do is threatening in the old way, you know, the way every new thing and change is, like, sort of threatening when you're in a in a couple sometimes. And if if you know it's gonna be a lifelong relationship, you know, partly because of the child, but also cause, you know, life isn't that long and you've already invested so much time and energy with this person. Like, maybe that's sort of interesting to get to see and be seen, you know, in this different way.

[Terry Gross]

My guest is Miranda July. Her novel All Fours is on many Best Books of the Year lists. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH air.

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Hi, it's Tanya Mosley. Before we get back to the show, the end of year is coming up and our FRESH AIR team is looking back at all the fantastic interviews and reviews we've been able to bring you in 2024 because of your support. We had so many delightful, introspective, sometimes emotional, sometimes funny, always deeply human conversations with St. Vincent Al Pacino, Bridget Everett, Pharrell Williams, Jeremy Strong, Ina Garten and so many others, people you know well and hopefully new people you learned about. For the first time on our show, we're able to do this because of your support to your local station or by joining npr. NPR has grown a lot this year, and we want to say thank you, an extra special thank you to those supporters. You know who you are, and we see you. If you don't know what we're talking about, NPR is a great way to support independent public media. When you sign up for a simple reoccurring donation, you support our mission to create a more informed public and get special perks from more than 25 NPR podcasts, including sponsor free listening weekly bonus episodes from our FRESH AIR archives, and even exclusive and discounted items from the NPR Shop and NPR Wine Club. When you donate today, you join a community of supporters united in our curiosity about the world and respect for hearing out different perspectives. Join us on the plus side today at plus.npr.org thanks.

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[Miranda July]

Going to have to bend the law to get the materials that you need.

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If not break it.

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[Miranda July]

Basically a lump of coal in the.

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[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH air. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with writer and filmmaker Miranda July. Her films include you, me and Everyone We Know and kajillionaire. Her new novel, All Fours, is on many 20, 24 best of lists. It's about a woman wanting to shake up her life. She's thinking of leaving her marriage and is having a very erotic affair. When she discovers she's entering perimenopause, she fears the best part of her life may be ending and she may lose her libido. She worries about getting older. There are parallels to Miranda July's life. I want to ask you about being the parent of a non binary child, which is the position more and more parents seem to be in. How old is your child now?

[Miranda July]

12?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. So they use the pronoun they them. What are some of the things you have to deal with as the parent of a non binary child in terms of even questions like do you want your child to take hormones? Do you want them to have a puberty block? Or do they want to have it? Like, is Your voice going to take precedence over theirs, or do you hope to be on the same page? Do you want to just follow what they want, knowing that they're not an adult yet and that their mind could possibly change? There's so many questions I think, that the parents of non binary children have to deal with. And especially now in a world where that's being like demonized in politics.

[Miranda July]

Yes. I mean, that's like a whole other book that I didn't write. The child in the book is non binary. And I remember sort of wrestling with like, should I have the child be he? And it would be he for a while? Then she. None of these things are feeling right, you know, it is a fiction. I'm making up all kinds of other things. Surely I can just. The gender of this child doesn't have to map onto the gender of my child. But I went home one day and asked my child, I just described this situation. I said, what do you think? Should I just have them be they them? I mean, I don't want, you know, it's not you, you know, so I don't want that to feel invasive to you. And they said, I think everyone in the book should be they them, which was such a kind of 2.0 answer, like, sort of like just questioning the construction of gender in general. And I said, like, okay, yeah, I'm not there yet. Point taken. And then I just went with they them. And I, there's maybe one point in the book where it's kind of acknowledged that potentially it's the same hormones that the narrator is taking, estrogen, you know, that a non binary, trans feminine child would, might one day take. But beyond that, you know, as a mother, it's not my story to tell, especially because, as with any child, it's a changing story. And you don't, like you. None of us want to put something out there that's gonna haunt the child, you know, which is not to say like they're ever not going to be trans. I don't mean that. But it's like, it's a private journey. My own, you know, deep inner gender and sexuality journey is a private journey. So I, I, it's tricky. I, there's so much information and conversation that is missing and that I would love to give any parents or grandparents who are listening, but it's just, it's too public for just me as a mother, not an educator, not a writer. Yeah, I'm just too protective of the sanctity of their childhood.

[Terry Gross]

Of course. Yeah. Have you changed a lot having more space in your life on your own because I would imagine you co parent with your former husband and that you don't have your child every day to take care of. And in some ways that's a real loss. And in other ways, it gains you some independence and personal time. And I wonder what that shift in time and that shift in the balance of independence versus having somebody dependent on you all the time has changed you, for better or worse, has changed your life or for better and worse.

[Miranda July]

So, yeah, the four days, every other four days I'm alone, you know, or wherever, whoever I choose to sleep with, like in my 20s, like, it's, it's really like you really have to stop and think when you have that, that time alone where you're not responsible. Like, what actually am I doing here in this life? Like, what do I feel like? And you keep just because you've unburdened yourself practically from this construction or these real responsibilities doesn't mean they just automatically lift off your shoulders. Like, most of my issues come from within, right? So suddenly you're like, oh, it wasn't all the construction of marriage or the patriarchy or it was those things, but they're inside me and I'm still running for dear life or replacing those constructions with new ones. You know, anything that'll fill up my time, take my time, please, you know, Instagram, whatever. Like, and so to actually be willing to take on that freedom, it's a real practice. Like, it's and I don't mean to make it sound hard or scary. It's only hard in the way that, like, a new habit is hard.

[Terry Gross]

My guest is Miranda July. Her latest novel is called All Fours. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH air.

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I'm Lakshmi Singh. Public radio reminds us of our shared humanity, even at our darkest hours. Like with a story of an artist couple who make beautiful spaces for communities to grieve. We found that people will usually stop by and just feel a little bit more open and willing to talk and share. Help us make room for light in the dark. Give before the end of the [e-mail].

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[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH air. Let's get back to my interview with writer and filmmaker Miranda July. Her latest novel, all Fours, is on many best of the year book lists. So I want to talk about your formative years. You gravitated toward punk as a teenager and what drew you to it? And what were your first experiences listening to punk rock or, you know, going to clubs?

[Miranda July]

I mean, I think I wasn't ever like, I'm not like a music head. So the thing that drew me to punk, especially as a teenager was first of all, it was an all ages scene. Like the clubs, like I could go to them. They weren't, they didn't have alcohol. And not only that, but the, the whole premise was you don't have to be taught, like you can figure it out yourself. And that was great for me, who did not want to be taught by anyone anyways and wanted access to a like a space, a world, a literal. I mean, I put my first plays on in a punk club in 924 Gilman, a sort of seminal all ages punk club in Berkeley. And that was so great. Honestly, I would wish that on any teenager to have the freedom to do something outside of school that while punk seems sort of lawless, it actually was a structure, you know, it did formalize what I was doing.

[Terry Gross]

You actually moved to Portland to be part of the riot grrrl scene?

[Miranda July]

Well, I moved to Portland to be with my girlfriend at the time. And riot grrrl kind of had just happened. I'd say I sort of missed it slightly, but certainly the like, the feminist underpinning was all there.

[Terry Gross]

One of the jobs that you had early on while trying to support yourself, I guess while you were doing your art was working at a peep show. How and why did you get that job initially?

[Miranda July]

Let's see, my girlfriend and I broke up. She moved out. We had to cover her rent. And I remember my friend at the time, like, how are we going to get this money really quickly, you know, that we were missing? And she said, well, one of us is going to have to strip and it can't be me because I have glasses. And I was like, okay. And so initially it was this Club that I think is still there, called Mary's. Mary's in Portland. But then I've had these kind of lifelong problems with my eyes. And there was smoking in the bars back then, so I couldn't really handle the smoke. So that's why I moved to the peep shows, which is just like a box. You're not really sharing air with anyone.

[Terry Gross]

And you're separated by glass. Right.

[Miranda July]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

What did you learn doing that? About sexuality or about men? About yourself. About what it means to get really turned on looking at somebody who's basically on exhibit behind glass.

[Miranda July]

Hmm. Yeah. I mean, my main goal was to make, as, you know, much money. It still wasn't that much, but to make this amount of money in a short time so I could work on my, you know, what ended up being like my first book of short stories, my first feature film, you know, I needed the time was how I was thinking about it.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[Miranda July]

I mean, I wouldn't recommend that job to my child or anyone else's child. But on the other hand, like, most jobs at that age are not so great.

[Terry Gross]

Were you able to see the peep show as a form of performance art?

[Miranda July]

No. No, I don't think I thought of it as my job. My not great job. That was, I think, when I quit that job, I started working unlocking car doors for a company called Papalock. You know, when you lock your key in your car and that doesn't happen so much anymore, but. And that job really I really hated because I had a beeper and, like, I could be beeped in the middle of the night to, like, have to go unlock someone's car. Which I was. You know, I'd been trained, but. And I always managed to get it open, but sometimes it took, like, a while.

[Terry Gross]

I have one more peep show question. So when men were staring at you and telling you their sexual fantasies, did you find it at all flattering or really creepy? Like, what was your experience of that, watching them? Like, they're there to watch you, but you're watching them.

[Miranda July]

I mean, at the time, like, for some context, like, I was lesbian. I had, like, very, I think, like, bleached out short hair. And I would wear a wig that was like my normal pretty girl wig that was like, longer brown hair. And so the whole thing was sort of like, I am so far from this, you have no idea. Like, I'm. Yeah, so it just.

[Terry Gross]

I'm not even me. You think you're looking at me. You're not that kind of thing.

[Miranda July]

Yeah, Just like Yeah. And. And I could see exactly how like I remember at the it. Mary's knowing that there was like. That there was a kind of guy, like if I put on. What's the song like in your eyes, the light, the heat, like, what is that, Genesis or something?

[Terry Gross]

I don't know.

[Miranda July]

In. In your eyes, I think it's called that. That would really just be like, oh my God, like this song which is so great and this girl, you know, like that. That would sort of generate this like man feeling and that there was another song, Brown eyed Girl, that's like. Yeah, yeah. Even though I don't have brown eyes, that it like cultivated a feeling of like just a brown eyed girl up here, you know, like girl next door kind of feeling. And that that was another thing that the customers liked to feel. You know, it was kind of like a homey feeling. So I think. But. But you know, these things aren't so different than life itself. Like noticing qualities in the rest of life, which I was doing all the time anyways. I mean, like in my first collection of short stories, I think there's only one story that has a peep show in it. So the amount of noticing I was doing at that in my 20s was across the board. And most of what I was noticing was not in that club or in Mr. Peeps.

[Terry Gross]

What were some of the conversations that you know about. About your book that you found most interesting? Like, what were some of the themes that you're glad your book provoked? You know, the themes in the conversations.

[Miranda July]

I mean, the things that make me most happy to read are like, women who while they were reading the book felt kind of exposed. Like, oh no, this is like my whole inner life exposed here in this book. And you know, I've had people tell me that like they were reading it on the plane and they felt like they at a certain point had to put it away. Not because of the sexual content, but because like they were sitting next to their husband and it was all their. All their true feelings that they weren't saying. And that's always kind of astonishing to me. Like, oh, writing can do that. Like, I get a lot of messages from older women who say, like, oh, this all happened to me. My all fours time was 20 years ago. But I'm stunned to realize that I wasn't alone. I thought I was uniquely crazy or irresponsible or something. And so they're just. It's like a reframing of their life to have the community from the book.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I look forward to your next book. Thank you so much for being on our show.

[Miranda July]

Thank you so much, Terry Miranda July's.

[Terry Gross]

Latest novel is called All Fours. This is FRESH air.

[Santa]

You care about what's happening in the world. Let State of the World from NPR keep you informed. Each day we transport you to a different point on the globe and introduce you to the people living world events. We don't just tell you world news, we take you there. And you can make this journey while you're doing the dishes or driving your car. State of the World podcast from npr. Vital international stories. Every day you care about what's happening in the world. Let State of the World from NPR keep you informed. Each day we transport you to a different point on the globe and introduce you to the people living world events. We don't just tell you world news. We take you there. And you can make this journey while you're doing the dishes or driving your car. State of the World podcast from npr. Vital international stories every day.

[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH air. Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead is going to review a newly released recording of a concert he attended in 1978 by pianist Sun Ra and his orchestra. Kevin says the colorful Philadelphia bandleader didn't always connect with traditional jazz audiences, but he'd found a second home doing so in Baltimore.

[Eric Glass]

Pianist Sun Ra called his sprawling orchestras orchestras, and like Noah's Ark, they crammed in an improbable amount of vibrant variety. He had his earworm melodies, like that one, Watusi, with its percolating Afro Cuban percussion. The orchestra played squalling free jazz barrages and sang genial vocal chants connected with Sun Ra's personal cosmology involving space travel and an interplanetary exodus.

[Miranda July]

From an asteroid to court makes your life filled with space.

[Eric Glass]

Joy June Tyson, longtime singer and costumer for the orchestra, who decked them out in striking, spangled outfits that looked good when the chanting musicians did a ring dance in front of the stage, counterclockwise, like the ancestors at the other end of time. Sunrise keyboard synthesizer could become a rocket taking off for and maybe arriving at a more hospitable planet than this one. This music comes from newly released recordings of sun ra in 1978 playing one of the Left Bank Jazz Society's weekly Sunday concerts in Baltimore. Some Left bank regulars disliked the jazz avant garde to the point of scolding musicians who went too far. And yet this show was Sun Ra's fifth for the Left bank in under two years, making him very much a house favorite. He did draw his own audience, but the Left Bank's African American standbys dug him too, knowing a comic Persona and a black carnival act when they saw one. Sun Ra was serious, but it's not like he didn't know he was funny. His wisdom was couched in puns and wordplay, but Sun Ra's warm welcome was really because his rocket to the future flew straight through the jazz of the 1930s and 40s. He was well drilled in the fundamentals the old school jazz fans revered. I attended a few of Sun Ra's Left bank concerts, and this one got even odder than usual when documentary filmmaker Bob Muggy's overhead movie Lights came up after the first set, as if the gods were checking in from above. Some of Muggy's footage turns up in his fine frame film Sun Ra A Joyful noise in the 70s, Ra started reviving then obscure 1930s swing tunes by his early idol and one time employer, band leader Fletcher Henderson. Those vehicles for trumpet sensation Michael Ray, let the orchestra traverse time as well as space. This is yeah, man. Sun Ra and his orchestra played three sets that evening in 1978, and the double album Lights on a Satellite gives a fair sampling of their range and includes a few tunes they didn't record so much. There are good features for tenor saxophone hero John Gilmore and altoist Marshall Allen. At age 100, Marshall leads a posthumous Sun Ra orchestra that also has a new CD called Lights on a Satellite. That modern band has its moments, but there's only one Sun Ra as a leader or keyboard player. Here he is on organ for Round Midnight, just playing the melody his way. The producer of this and dozens of historical jazz records, many of which we've praised here on the show is Zev Feldman, who likes to fill out album booklets with extracts from interviews he conducts with witnesses whose memories are not always accurate or pertinent. The Sun Ra booklet contains a few contradictory or just plain wrong statements, some made by Feldman himself about such easy to verify stuff as what day or days the orchestra played that weekend or at what time. Those famous ballroom shows were all Sundays from 5 to 9pm in the booklet, someone guesses Sun Ra played three or four times for the Left Bank Jazz Society when it was 13 concerts in 11 years. Producer Feldman calls himself the jazz detective, but it's a detective's job to sift through conflicting accounts to tell us what really happened, not just throw it all out there before racing off to another case. Valuable music like this deserves more scrupulous documentation. Presentation.

[Terry Gross]

Jazz Astir and Kevin Whitehead reviewed Sun Lights on a Satellite live at the Left Bank. Kevin's latest book is Play the Way youy Feel the Essential Guide to Jazz Stories on Film. If you'd like to catch up on Fresh AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Billie Eilish and Finneas, or with Ronny Chang of the Daily show and the series Interior Chinatown, or about TikTok and its uncertain future, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to. Subscribe to our free [e-mail] free Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stanischewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Boldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Sivi Nesper. Thea Chaloner direct directed today's show. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

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