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- [00:00]
Natasha Rothwell
This message comes from Carvana.
- [00:02]
Tonya Mosley
Sell your car the convenient way, enter.
- [00:05]
Natasha Rothwell
Your license plate or vin, answer a few questions and get a real offer in seconds. Go to Carvana.com today.
- [00:13]
Tonya Mosley
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. This has been quite a year so far for my guest Natasha Rothwell. She returns to the third season of the popular HBO show the White Lotus. And just this past weekend her Hulu series how to Die Alone was, which she created and starred in, won an Independent Spirit award for best ensemble cast and a new scripted series. But that win is bittersweet because the show, which premiered last September, was canceled after just one season. While Rothwell's return to the White Lotus signals a deeper dive into the tension between entitlement and servitude, which has been present along with murder in every season of the show, it follows the storyline of seemingly picture perfect travelers with various dysfunctions who go to the White Lotus resort to escape. In the first season, Rothwell's character Belinda is a spa manager at the Hawaii location. She meets a wealthy visitor named Tanya, played by Jennifer Coolidge, and the two strike up a friendship. Belinda shares her dreams of opening up her own spa with Tanya.
- [01:23]
Natasha Rothwell
I do think that there's a purpose in helping even rich people, you know, helping them to find healing, making them feel more present, more aware. Yeah. Cause rich people, they're the ones that, you know.
- [01:37]
Dom Hetrakul
Up the whole world.
- [01:38]
Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of rich white up people. They could really use you. No. Have you ever thought about starting like your own business? Come on. No. Cause I would be down for funding something like that.
- [02:04]
Tonya Mosley
We watch as Tonya flakes on Valinda, never funding her dream to open a spa, instead running off with another guest who goes on to con and attempt to have Coolidge's character killed. Well, in this latest season in Thailand, Belinda experiences the other side of the guest staff dynamic as a visitor taking part in a White Lotus exchange program. Natasha Rothwell is an award winning actor, writer and series creator. Her early start in comedy included a stint as a writer on Saturday Night Live during the 201415 season. She also starred in HBO's Insecure as Issa's hilarious and sexually liberated friend Kelly. She also served as a writer and supervising producer on the show. Natasha Rothwell, welcome to FRESH air.
- [02:51]
Natasha Rothwell
Thank you for having me.
- [02:52]
Tonya Mosley
First, let's talk a little bit about the White Lotus because fans of the White Lotus were very happy to see you return, intrigued because we know that your return means something pretty big. And this season she's at the Thailand resort. So she's there to relax and, as I said, learn a few new things to bring back to the resort in Maui. Well, in the clip I'm about to play, your character, Belinda shares what she's been through to a wellness expert assigned to train her ponchai, played by Dom Hetrakul. Let's listen.
- [03:25]
Dom Hetrakul
So you like Thailand?
- [03:29]
Natasha Rothwell
Very much.
- [03:31]
Dom Hetrakul
I am happy.
- [03:38]
Natasha Rothwell
You know, before I got here, I was depressed. My friend was my boss, actually. He died in this freak accident at work. And this woman, this rich woman, she's supposed to help me open up my own spa, you know, so I could be my own boss. Something I've always wanted to do. And of course, she flakes runs off with some guy she just met.
- [04:11]
Dom Hetrakul
Ah.
- [04:16]
Tonya Mosley
That was my guest today, Natasha Rothwell, in the latest season of the White Lotus. I have to say, the music is always like the other character in the room, isn't it? It's just what Mike White does with music.
- [04:27]
Natasha Rothwell
It's so special. It really is.
- [04:29]
Tonya Mosley
Well, Belinda is such a fascinating character. I'm so interested to see how this season pays off and seeing what becomes of her, because she has this veneer of sweetness that kind of hides this sense of dejection and growing resentment that I assume that she feels by being, like, stiff by Tanya, you know, how was it to return to her character?
- [04:55]
Natasha Rothwell
I think in the time that audiences saw her before, as they just heard, you know, she's experienced some depression. And I think that happens naturally when you open yourself up vulnerable about your dreams to someone, especially if that someone is a stranger, you're taking kind of a big swing. And I think she felt really, you know, hurt and dejected after that rejection from Tanya. But I do think we find her on the precipice of change. You know, she's taking a pretty big swing going to a country she's never been to before. She's going there by herself at first until her son can join her. And I think when someone does something like that, it speaks to their optimism. And I think that it's really fun to meet someone when they're about to try again.
- [05:43]
Tonya Mosley
I think I heard you say that Belinda kind of represents the person you used to be.
- [05:48]
Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, No, I think, you know, season one, she, you know, swallowed a lot of blood, you know, and didn't say what was on her mind and, you know, was very, you know, obliging. And I think that that's partly because she's working in a place where she can't really articulate her pov. And her. Her needs and advocate for them because she's there to serve. But I do think there's parts of that that she could have fought against. And I think when we see her now, she's sort of straddling that line of, you know, being an employee and the guest and, you know, when she's leaning on that foot that's in the guest lane, you know, she's allowing herself to speak up and advocate for her needs a little bit more, which I think it's always cool to see someone audition sort of that kind of version of themselves. And I think that's vacationing 101, right? You go and you're like, who am I gonna be here? And so I think she does that a bit as well.
- [06:50]
Tonya Mosley
This season is in Thailand. But, you know, something that I found so interesting is Mike White, who is the writer, the creator of the White Lotus. You know, season one, he had no idea what he had on his hands. You're just making this cool thing, and you don't know how the public will receive it. I mean, it is such a hit now. How different was it for you on the set for this one versus the first season?
- [07:18]
Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, Mike jokingly said that season one was basically a zoom TV show, comparatively. You know, we were. You know, we had one location we weren't permitted to leave because of the COVID protocols. You know, we were shooting.
- [07:34]
Tonya Mosley
You were shooting in Hawaii during COVID Yeah, pre vaccination.
- [07:37]
Natasha Rothwell
So it was. We were one of the first, if not the first, you know, production back, and there was a lot of fear, you know, and fear is a really tough place to make anything creative. But Mike somehow created this environment that made us feel safe. And, yeah, we were sold on a limited series. It was one and done. And, you know, I watched season two with everyone from home excited, and, like, there was really no expectation that I would come back, and I didn't have it. I didn't. You know, I'm not the type of, you know, creator or actor that fights for it, because I have deference to the pen, for sure. And so I watched and was excited. And then when Mike asked me to be a part of season three, I was gagged, you know, because it's bigger. But I think for me, what grounded me in the bigness of what the show has become are the people. And, you know, showing up on set, I'm seeing, you know, the same hair and makeup team. I'm seeing the same dp, the same ad, and, you know, it was just felt like returning home I was like, oh, yeah, like, the heart and soul of the show is the same. It's the perception that's increased. So it felt very comforting to land in Thailand and remember that it is just, at the end of the day, a group of people just trying to make some art, you know.
- [08:55]
Tonya Mosley
How long did you guys spend in Thailand to shoot?
- [08:58]
Natasha Rothwell
It varied per actor. I was there for about five months.
- [09:02]
Tonya Mosley
Wow.
- [09:03]
Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. It was not a short trip.
- [09:08]
Tonya Mosley
There is a theme in the show of mindfulness, and there are lots of references to Buddhism. And really, for these characters, the visitors of this resort, they're coming to grips with the ugliness of who they are and their individual ways. Did you have a spiritual experience while you were in Thailand, or was it work, work, work?
- [09:29]
Natasha Rothwell
No, I think that, like, you can't help but have a spiritual experience there. It's such a special place. You know, I learned while I was there Thailand has never been colonized. And so it's a really interesting juxtaposition to being from the States, where we're constantly in this trauma response from our history. And to go to a place that doesn't have that, it brings out, I mean, at some level, a certain kind of levity of just being alive.
- [09:59]
Tonya Mosley
Can you describe or explain, give an example of what you mean by that? Like, the differences?
- [10:04]
Natasha Rothwell
I mean, they call it the land of smiles. You meet people. There's no preconceived notions of who you are, where you're from. And I think, you know, walking around the world as a black woman, there's all these suppositions about who I am and where I'm from and what I believe in. And there they wait for you to declare who you are, what you are about. And even in the language, you know, I found so interesting, when I say swatika, the K is the feminine sort of identifier, and it's given, not received. So even the power to identify. When you say hello to someone, I say the ka to let you know how to receive me.
- [10:45]
Tonya Mosley
How to. Right. Oh, that's so interesting.
- [10:48]
Natasha Rothwell
Even so, it's not the other outside in sort of descriptor saying what you are. It's not the world telling you what you are. You're declaring it when you say hello. So it's small things like that. And I think that there's a warmth and a genuine, you know, spirit of acceptance there that just is pervasive.
- [11:07]
Tonya Mosley
There is a scene in the show, it's where you're waiting for dinner and you see another black guest there that was Written into the show. Because you mentioned it to Mike White, right?
- [11:19]
Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, I pitched it to him. You know, we're close and, you know, I tell him about my travels and the like. And, you know, with Belinda being in a foreign country, I was just, you know, reiterating the importance of black travel and how once when I was traveling to Ireland, I was at some castle on the top of some misty hill. I can't remember. But what I do remember is when I was there, I was the only black person I could see. But this black family, a mother, father and two kids that were like, around 12 or 11, sort of walk up the hill and break through the mist. And I just looked at them and they looked at me, and we just kind of walked towards each other and hugged. And I was explaining to Mike, I was just like, when you see yourself reflected in a space that you. I mean, it just lets you know you belong there, you know, I think when Belinda in that moment sees this couple, it's just there. She sees that, and it's this, I think, internal affirmation that she can lean back and enjoy her wine in this moment. She doesn't have to be in this servile position as a default. She can experience life from that perspective as well.
- [12:32]
Tonya Mosley
There are so many themes that this series unpacks through these individual characters and their journeys. Is there anyone in particular that, like, really lights you up or, like, you, like, really are thinking deeply about as you're watching this series? Because it's actually quite deep when you start to think about these issues of servitude and white privilege and wealth and access and all of that.
- [12:58]
Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, I think that it's such a great question because I think that when you're talking about servitude specifically and Belinda being in a servile position but stepping out of that this season, I think it highlights code switching it highlights sort of the passport you'd need to sort of move between those two spaces. I think she's often seen as sort of like this moral compass, moral center, which I think flirts with the idea of sort of the magical negro that, you know, doesn't have that any problem. She's there to, like, make sense of white mass. But Belinda serves as such an interesting ruler to measure the other characters against.
- [13:44]
Tonya Mosley
Natasha, it took you eight years to get this show made, and after it was announced that it was canceled, you said, like, this is an undeniable hit. This is like a critical, creative, and award winning show. Did you feel like executives gave up on it too soon?
- [14:02]
Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, you know, I was pretty shocked. The landscape of Hollywood has been interesting, I think, in a post strike world. But I think even zooming farther out, I think television, led by black stars and shows that are centering marginalized voices aren't getting the support and placement that they need. I think it's unfortunate that how to Die Alone didn't meet the metric that, you know, the studio was using to make their decision. But I'm so proud of what I've created and I think for me it just tells me that, you know, I'm just going to continue to fight harder.
- [14:53]
Tonya Mosley
This was such an original show. It was also autobiographical in a bit. A bit like, it's not literal, but I mean, the main character, Mel, is described, as I mentioned, a broke, fat black woman who has given up on herself until she almost dies in like the saddest way. This cheap bookshelf falls on her in her apartment and that's when she has this awakening, like, you know, what am I doing in life? Like something similar happened to you.
- [15:24]
Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, you know, I've been fat and black my whole life, but outside of those two, no, I was. I had like this toothache and I'm very famously allergic to acetaminophen and. And other NSAIDs at varying degrees. And I took one because it was just. I had. I had this dental work and it's been so long and I was like, how bad can it be? I'm sure I'm over it by now. And so I think my pain took over common sense and I took some NSAIDs and just started swelling up like Hitch and drove myself to the urgent care because it was an ambulance is an expensive thing in the States. And, you know, they shot me with an EpiPen and reminded me not to take NSAIDs. And I was like, yeah, I know, but I just remember being in that waiting room and being even seen in the back. They were just like, you know, you have to wait for this medicine to take effect. Who can take you home? And I didn't have anyone. And I was just like, this ain't this ain't, this ain't it. So it's little moments like that, you know, I remember there's another moment that. Where in the show the character of Mel goes toe to toe with some umlaut furniture, our homage to perhaps ikea. And I had a similar situation where I had a shelf bonk me in the head. I didn't lose consciousness or anything like that, but it was just like I was fighting with aloneness, you know, and, you know, the pride I think I had with asking for help at the time. And so I wanted to write a character who had this wake up call and wasn't fixed immediately. I think so often we see, you know, fat girl gets bonked on the head, she wakes up and realizes, you know, she needs a man to fix her problems and then she needs to go to the gym and all is right. And for me, body neutrality is where I've arrived. And like, I didn't want to, you know, promote, you know, the never ending wheel of like the, you know, wellness industrial complex of like, let's just throw a workout at her and a man and it'll be solved. It's much deeper.
- [17:57]
Tonya Mosley
Tell me about your relationship with the word fet because, you know, it's in all of the descriptions of this show. And you wrote it.
- [18:07]
Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, I went into many meetings, many zooms over that word because, you know, folks were scared of it. And my journey with the word, you know, when I was younger, I used to cry when I was called it. And then, you know, cut to now. I wanted that word to no longer be pejorative. It's just a fact. It doesn't has. It has no indication of my heart, my intellect, my creativity, my business acumen, my, you know, my kindness. Like, so to take back that word and put it in the description. And so often I've been in interviews where they won't say that part of the description because they feel weird about it. It lets me know how comfortable someone is with me being in their space. And I had a meeting before we start production, which is, you know, very common that, you know, the showrunners will talk to all of the staff and the crew on this giant big call. You, we're all on zoom. And I addressed everyone on the call sheet. I said, the word fat is not pejorative. So when you are on set and you're using this word in a pejorative way, no, that is not accepted. You know, if you eat a big lunch and you say, ugh, I feel fat. Right. Which we're all one to do. But like, that is something that tells me you feel uncomfortable with the idea that you are not a straight size or you are not small and you're talking to or around or in earshot of someone who is plus size, it's telling them consciously or subconsciously that you are disgusted with them. So if you want to use it in a positive light, go ahead, call somebody a fatty baddie, keep it pushing. But we are not going to create a space where anyone is going to be made to feel discomfort based off of that word.
- [20:07]
Tonya Mosley
Our guest today is Natasha Rothwell, one of the season three stars of the White Lotus on hbo. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH air.
- [20:17]
Natasha Rothwell
It's Oscar season and we watched the nominated movies so you don't have to. We are making some bold predictions for Hollywood's biggest night and we may help you win your Oscars pool. Listen to the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from npr.
- [20:34]
Tonya Mosley
Hey, it's hey, Martinez. I work on a new show and yeah, the news can feel like a lot on any given day, but you just can't ignore la noticias when important world changing events are happening. So that is where the up first podcast comes in. Every single morning in under 15 minutes. We take the news and boil it down to three essential stories so you can keep up without feeling stressed out. Listen to the up first podcast from npr. Public Media counts on your support to.
- [21:01]
Natasha Rothwell
Ensure that the reporting and programs you depend on thrive. Make a recurring donation today to get.
- [21:07]
Tonya Mosley
Special access to more than 20 NPR podcasts.
- [21:10]
Natasha Rothwell
Perks like sponsor free listening, bonus episodes.
- [21:14]
Tonya Mosley
Early access and more.
- [21:16]
Natasha Rothwell
So start supporting what you love today@plus.npr.org.
- [21:23]
Tonya Mosley
You auditioned for SNL. You ended up being a writer. Tell me a little bit about that audition and that time period. Cause this is, if I'm correct, this is like the time period when they were looking for a black woman.
- [21:37]
Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. Yeah. They had their mission pretty clear. Yeah. But I was in New York at the time and had been working at this high school as a theater teacher for about four years. I landed in New York around 2009. And at this point I had, you know, left my job teaching and was just like pushing all the chips in on my career. Had so many gig jobs.
- [22:08]
Tonya Mosley
You were teaching theater to what, what age group?
- [22:10]
Natasha Rothwell
9Th, 10th, 11th and 12th.
- [22:12]
Tonya Mosley
Okay. So. Yeah. So, so high schoolers. Was there ever a moment in those four years where you were thinking like maybe this is my life or did you always know? It's a temporary thing.
- [22:22]
Natasha Rothwell
I was working at, you know, community centers down in, you know, Flatbush. And at the same time I started teaching at Upright Citizens Brigade. And so I became really enmeshed in the education program at ucb, this time with adults and improv. And they had way more understanding with this lifestyle of needing to leave to go do an audition. And one of those auditions was snl. And I got word that, you know, they were doing These special secret showcases with black ladies. Because, you know, very famously, Kenan and Jay Pharoah didn't want to wear drag anymore. And I got a place on the showcase, and, yeah, just shot my shot. And, you know, how did you.
- [23:15]
Tonya Mosley
What was your audition? Do you remember?
- [23:17]
Natasha Rothwell
It was. I had a lot of different things that I auditioned with. I had a drunk Maya Angelou impression I had.
- [23:27]
Tonya Mosley
Why is that making me laugh? Just do what they get about it.
- [23:30]
Natasha Rothwell
It's just fun. It's just fun. And then I did an impression of Kenan, which was just making looks with my eyes. There was no dialogue. And after that, I did get a call back, and that meant we auditioned at Studio 8H. So we went down to 30 Rock, and of those who made it the second round of auditions, you would go into the famous Studio 8H, and in the audience is Lorne Michaels. And then it's populated by, you know, past and present cast members, writers, executives, and it's famously a very, very cold room. And everyone tells you, no one's gonna laugh. It's gonna be really quiet. And, you know, I was auditioning alongside, you know, Sasheer and Leslie Jones and all of these major, major comedians, and I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified. But it was, again, one of those things where I was just like, just go hard or go home. And I did get laughs during mine, which gave me some feel goods. And it was the Kenan impression. Cause he was in. He was in the room, and he told me once I finally was in the writer's room, he was like, you were killing me. Because I was just basically pulling face, which is just like, you know, something he's known for. And to do it in front of him got the room to laugh.
- [24:41]
Tonya Mosley
Is there something you wrote that you are most proud of on the show?
- [24:45]
Natasha Rothwell
Yes. I worked with Taraji P. Henson on her monologue, which I'm so excited.
- [24:52]
Tonya Mosley
I actually have a clip of this. So Taraji P. Henson hosted the show in 2015, and at the time, she was starring in the Fox show Empire as Cookie Lions. And the name of the monologue is I made it. Let's listen to it a little bit.
- [25:07]
Natasha Rothwell
This is so nice. Oh, my God. Being on Saturday Night Live really means so much to me because it proves that after 20 years in show business, white people finally know who I am. Now, look, I've been around a while, but a lot of you are just getting to know me as Cookie on Empire. Thank you. No, no, no. Real talk. This role changed my life. I mean, I spent so many Years hustling in this business and now I'm here. So I guess you could say I made it. Hallelujah. Don't worry about where you are. Be grateful that you've come this far. You may not always come in first. Just remember that. It could be worse. I could have been an extra on the Lion King? Could be wearing some giant toucan wings? Could be trying to make some bachelors holla. Could be twerking on a pole for a dollar. I could have been a hip hop video ho. Did it once or twice but not no more. None of that stuff matters now. Cause I made it. Oh yeah, she made it. Used to tip five, but now it's 30%, see? Cause you made it. Oh yes, I made it. Almost all my organs Just to pay the rent. You got a purchase? Oh yes, I made it.
- [26:50]
Tonya Mosley
Coulda passed out. That was Taraji p. Henson in 2015 in her opening monologue on SNL written by my guest today. I love that. Like, it's part monologue, it's part song. Did you write the song?
- [27:05]
Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. Like, it's a team effort there for sure. So I have not heard that since. It's so funny.
- [27:12]
Tonya Mosley
Oh, really?
- [27:13]
Natasha Rothwell
I was like, oh, wow, I do remember. No, it was a team effort and the music was inspired. You know, I grew up in the church and John P. Key, you know, has some really early 90s, late 80s jams that would be like you would be cooking. And so I just remember working with the music director and I was like, we gotta hit these. It has to have that sauce.
- [27:35]
Tonya Mosley
It's also so real, you know, like all the things that she listed. It goes on to say, like all these other things that. Oh, these things you take for granted. That show that I made it, she made it.
- [27:47]
Natasha Rothwell
And I felt like she was singing for me for sure. Cause there I was, like writing for this iconic show that I just. I had no, truly no aspirations to be on because I didn't see myself on the show. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't see myself on the show.
- [27:59]
Tonya Mosley
So it was never a dream of yours even not seeing yourself?
- [28:02]
Natasha Rothwell
No. I mean, Ellen Cleghorn, who was in my show how to Die Alone, I just remember her in early sketches. And there was this whole period of time where it was just black men in drag and I didn't see myself as being on screen there. And I didn't think it would be an option. So I was just like, well, I know I'm gonna make it, but I don't know if it's gonna be by way of snl. And so when I was there, you know, working on the sketch, and it was just. Yeah, it was for both of us. I was just like, well, this is. Both of us are here. And we didn't think we would be. So it was pretty cool.
- [28:34]
Tonya Mosley
Pretty soon after you started working on Insecure, like, was that whiplash, or was it a lot different? Was it similar?
- [28:43]
Natasha Rothwell
It was very different, you know, night and day, because once you have SNL on your resume, it's like a stamp and a passport, and a lot of people want you to, you know, to be a part of their shows. And Amy Gravett, who's still a wonderful friend and still an amazing executive at hbo, was in New York and wanted to meet with me for this show from the woman who created Awkward Black Girl. And I was like, I love that show. So, yeah, I'll meet with her. What's this show about? And she's like, you know, we shot a pilot, but we're opening up a writer's room for Insecure. And I was like, absolutely, I would want to meet because I just loved Awkward Black Girls so much.
- [29:24]
Tonya Mosley
You are. I am an Awkward Black Girl. That's what you were saying to yourself.
- [29:27]
Natasha Rothwell
I was shouting it from the rooftops. And so when I would see her show on YouTube, I didn't know it had the. You know, was heading to the. You know, to hbo to be on a bigger screen, and jumped right into that and moved coasts and everything.
- [29:43]
Tonya Mosley
So you were a writer on the show, but can you quickly tell the story of then, how you came to be Kelly? Yes, because there was a moment with everyone where it became apparent that you are Kelly.
- [29:56]
Natasha Rothwell
I had zero aspirations to try to jockey to be on the screen. I was just like, I just want to be the best writer possible. And about a month into the writers room, Ben Dugan, who was one of the writers on the show, had pitched, you know, growing Issa's friendship circle just for writing and so that we could have, you know, diversified stories. And that's where, you know, the characters of Tiffany and Kelly came along. And as a room, we're pitching their characteristics and things like that, and, you know, wrote a few scripts with her in it. And. And a part of Issa's process is to read all the scripts aloud. The writers reading the scripts aloud in the writer's room just so we can hear it and making sure that it sings. And I was always being cast as Kelly because she would cast us in the writer's room. And I'M never not myself. And I obviously know I have the ability to sell this character. And I thought I was selling it for its existence. I was not trying to sell myself for it. I was just like, I love this character so much. I want her to live. And I just remember as we have these scripts generated and the casting process started, Issa and Prentice called me in their office, and they're just like, you know, you, Kelly Wright. And I like, burst into tears because I didn't see it coming. I didn't see it coming.
- [31:09]
Tonya Mosley
I want to actually play a clip to remind folks of Kelly and who she was in this scene. She is talking about her work as an accountant. Let's listen.
- [31:20]
Natasha Rothwell
That's why I make sure my white clients get less on their tax returns. It's reparations. That's what that is. I feel like, Rob, you know what I mean? It's the facts. It's just facts. I don't care if I get in trouble. I'm doing it. That's what I marched for. I took off work so I could walk down the street and do to white people. Finally, real talk. Don't tell nobody. Cause I'm gonna go to full jail. I'm not surprised. Like, full jail. You ever see Lock Up Abroad? They gonna lock abroad up.
- [31:48]
Tonya Mosley
That's my guest, Natasha Rothwell at HBO's Insecure.
- [31:53]
Natasha Rothwell
I'm cracking up. Cause that was definitely like a huge improvised moment. And so.
- [31:57]
Tonya Mosley
So that wasn't wr some of it.
- [32:00]
Natasha Rothwell
I think it started off, but then I go on this tangent about wanting to make white people pay more in their taxes. And we were just going back and forth. And then I'm sure it ended with us with her breaking or one of us breaking.
- [32:14]
Tonya Mosley
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is actress, writer, and series creator Natasha Rothwell. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH air.
- [32:25]
Natasha Rothwell
If you're a super fan of FRESH Air with Terry Gross, we have exciting news.
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Tonya Mosley
WHYY has launched a Fresh Air Society.
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Natasha Rothwell
A leadership group dedicated to ensuring Fresh Air's legacy. For over 50 years, this program has brought you fascinating interviews with favorite authors, artists, actors, and more. As a member of the FRESH Air Society, you'll receive special benefits and recognition.
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Tonya Mosley
Learn more at whyy.org freshairsociety Natasha, you mentioned how you grew up with parents who were in the military. Did you move around a lot?
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Natasha Rothwell
I did. My dad was in the Air Force. And yeah, I was born in Wichita, Kansas, and I was there for maybe the first year of my life, year and a half, maybe. So I have really no memories of that. My older sister was born in Albuquerque, New Mexico. My brother was born in New Jersey. We lived in Florida, Illinois, Turkey at the Incirlik Air Force Base there. Maryland. Yeah. And then my dad was stationed at the Pentagon, and then he retired as a commander at Fort Dix. And so it was a lot of moving around. It's all I knew. So there's no kind of, like, you know, I didn't lament my upbringing. I was just, like, curious of people who didn't live like that. You know what I mean?
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Tonya Mosley
Your parents, they've been married over 40 years.
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Natasha Rothwell
They were up 47 years yesterday.
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Tonya Mosley
Wow. You know, I mean, that's aspirational.
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Natasha Rothwell
It's goals. It's goals.
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Tonya Mosley
Has it ever felt, like, oppressive? Yeah.
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Natasha Rothwell
Yes, absolutely. I mean, they have this unbelievable love story. And, you know, I wrote a show about how to die alone, so I definitely, yeah, I would be like, okay. You know, they set a pretty high bar. But I. You know, as much as I resented it, I think especially in my early 20s where I was just sort of tapping my watch, I'm so grateful for them as an example because they're just. They ride so hard for each other, and it gives me something to look forward to myself.
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Tonya Mosley
I've heard you describe yourself as neurospicy. What does that mean?
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Natasha Rothwell
Well, now I know it means that I have pretty severe adhd. I'm late diagnosed, and, yeah, I've always known that. I see the world a little bit differently. I've had previous therapists suggest that I might have adhd, but I didn't really pursue that or identify as that. I just was just like, oh, yeah, my brain works a little bit different. And last year, actually, I got an official diagnosis, and it was heartbreaking a little bit. I think I was, like, resisting the diagnosis because it meant, like, when I looked at my life in hindsight, there are all these moments of empathy I have for that girl that was struggling, who had no idea why. And I just took it as a moral failure. You know, coming from the church, I was like, oh, yeah, I need to pray this inability to sit still out, and I need to pray this lack of focus and attention out, you know, and now knowing that those were. My brain's just wired differently. Yeah, it was kind of a painful diagnosis in that respect, but then so freeing because it was just like, oh, I don't have to mask the fact that, like, you know, I have no short term memory. Like, it's so terrible and I don't have to feel bad about it, but I can announce it, be like, hey, I have really severe adhd, so if you say something to me, I might have to write it down or you're going to have to tell me more than once or, you know, part of.
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Tonya Mosley
You kind of like being in denial about it. Was it also because so many of like the descriptors are not like the things we know ADHD to be correct.
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Natasha Rothwell
I didn't know the full sort of scope of what someone with ADHD presents as, you know, like it's so varied, it's so deep, it's so complex. And especially for black women, we are so high functioning that we can mask so many of the things that are markers for ADHD because we have trained ourselves to show up in a way that's acceptable. And so my whole life has been acceptability politics. So I have known how to show up and pretend I hear you and, you know, pretend to be focused and to correct my behaviors and, you know, laugh off this mistake. And there's a whole sort of circus that I think that I was able to put down once I realized I had the diagnosis. And every day I'm still learning more where I'm just like, and I'm forever inquisitive about myself probably to the point that I shouldn't be. My therapist is just like, you don't have to have an explanation for everything.
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Tonya Mosley
And I'm like, some things just are. Huh?
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Natasha Rothwell
Some things just are. But I love being in this part of my life where I get to ask those questions and be curious about my own behavior and embrace the fact that, yeah, I'm an ADHD baddie.
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Tonya Mosley
Natasha Rothwell, this was such a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you.
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Natasha Rothwell
I enjoyed talking with you.
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Tonya Mosley
Natasha Rothwell is an award winning actor, writer and series creator. She played Belinda in the current season of HBO's the White Lotus. Coming up, we remember actor Gene Hackman who died yesterday at the age of 95. This is FRESH AIR. We learn today that actor Gene Hackman has died at the age of 95. Yesterday, authorities found the bodies of Hackman, his wife Betsy Arakawa and their dog in their home in Santa Fe, New Mexico. We remember Gene Hackman with an interview Terry recorded with him in 1999. Hackman was a two time Oscar winner whose movies included Bonnie and Clyde, the Conversation, Mississippi Burning, Unforgiven, the Quick and the Dead, Superman, Hoosiers and the Royal Tenenbaums. He made his last film in 2004 and stepped back from acting, Hackman won his first Academy Award as the violent, racist narcotics detective Popeye Doyle in the 1971 film the French Connection.
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Natasha Rothwell
All right, Popeye's here.
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Dom Hetrakul
Put your hands on your heads. Get off the barn. Get on the wall.
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Tonya Mosley
Come on, move, move.
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Dom Hetrakul
Come on, sweetheart, move. Hands out of your pocket. Turn around. Come on, turn around. Get on the wall.
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Natasha Rothwell
Get on.
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Dom Hetrakul
Turn around.
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Natasha Rothwell
Turn around.
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Dom Hetrakul
Hey, you dropped that.
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Tonya Mosley
Pick it up.
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Natasha Rothwell
Pick it up. Come on, move.
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Dom Hetrakul
What are you looking at? All right, bring it here. Get your hands out of your pockets. What's my name?
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Natasha Rothwell
Doyle.
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Dom Hetrakul
What?
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Natasha Rothwell
Mr. Doyle.
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Dom Hetrakul
Come here. You. Pick your feet. Get over that.
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Tonya Mosley
Get your hands on your head.
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D
When you were preparing for your role as a, you know, narcotics cop for French Connection, how did you see this role as comparing to other cops that you'd had, that you'd seen portrayed in movies?
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Dom Hetrakul
I try not to look at that kind of thing. As an actor, I try to only look at characters and the script in. In a way that is always fresh for me. I ask myself a few very basic questions about how is this person like me? How is this person unlike me? And in answering those things is where I usually come up with the character.
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D
Would you be able to tell us how you answered them?
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Dom Hetrakul
Well, there's some very obvious things where I ask myself. For instance, in the French Connection, I would say to myself, am I a policeman? No, of course not. What does it take to be a policeman? If I can really be honest about myself, given my personality, my physical makeup, what kind of a policeman would I be? Would I be able to do certain things that are required of me in this story? Yes, maybe. If I say to myself, no, then the next question is, well, what do I have to do in order to convince somebody that I am capable of doing that?
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D
So when you ask yourself, what do I have to do to become that person in a role, what answers did you give yourself? What did you have to do to become that person?
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Dom Hetrakul
Well, some of it was pure acting, and some of it, as I said before, that sometimes I would say to myself, I couldn't do this. I couldn't say that line to that character in reality. So then I have to ask myself, if you say you can't say that in reality, then how are you going to act that? I would then give myself a situation where under some circumstance, I would be able to do that. I would relate to an argument, possibly that I had had with someone at some very high voltage time in my life, to the point Where I could say, okay, given the right circumstances, I can do that. Now, I will now try to recreate that moment, just to speak in layman's terms for myself, by doing it in a sensory way. What was I wearing that day that this event took place? What was the weather like? What was the atmosphere? And be very specific about that so that then I can create, recreate a situation for myself that was. That is similar to the situation in the script.
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D
You know, you were talking before about how when you do a character, you have to ask yourself, what's similar about me and this character? What's different about me and this character? What would I have to do to fill in the gap between what he would do and what I would do? In at least two recent movies, you played characters with a real sadistic streak. The sheriff in Unforgiven and the sheriff in the Quick and the Dead. And these were. These are characters who definitely had a strong sadistic streak. What do you do to get in the spirit of a character like that?
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Dom Hetrakul
I find in me a sadistic streak. I find something in me that may not be very attractive, but that I feel would be valuable in this context. I think if you search hard enough, you can find a lot of elements in yourself that you can. You can use as an actor. You know, under certain circumstances, we're all capable of murder, I suppose, so you just have to find that circumstance. Sadism, I suppose, is not something that I find very attractive, but I guess there are certain things in me that will elicit that kind of thing.
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D
Well, on screen, you know, the great sadists always have a lot of charisma.
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Dom Hetrakul
Well, that's true.
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D
So it must be fun to play roles like that.
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Dom Hetrakul
It is. It's always more fun to play heavy than it is to play a good guy. My kids are always asking me to play these things. Grandfathers and kindly old gentlemen. And I just tell them that, you know, not that I dislike watching that kind of thing, but for me to play it is not as interesting.
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D
Do you get offers for kindly old gentleman kind of roles?
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Dom Hetrakul
I have, yes. I have grandfathers and things like that that are all knowing and wise and all that, and they just don't interest me.
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D
You've actually dropped out of acting a couple of times, didn't you?
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Dom Hetrakul
Mm.
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D
Why?
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Dom Hetrakul
Yeah, well, I thought I wanted to paint. I thought I wanted to do a lot of things, and. And once I started doing those things, I found that I didn't have the skill that I pretend to have as an actor. And so I kind of drifted back to it. If you've done it as long as I have, it's very hard to drop it. You know, there's something very seductive about acting because you come to work and there's 90 people standing there waiting for you to do something. And there is something both very heady and seductive and unattractive about that.
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Tonya Mosley
Gene Hackman speaking with Terry in 1999. He died yesterday at the age of 95. Fresher's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Meyers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly CB Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Moseley.