Fresh Air Episode Summary Title: Ocean Vuong Sees Himself More As A Teacher Than A Writer
Host: Tonya Mosley
Guest: Ocean Vuong
Release Date: June 6, 2025

Introduction to Ocean Vuong and The Emperor of Gladness

In this compelling episode of Fresh Air, host Tonya Mosley engages in an intimate conversation with acclaimed writer and poet Ocean Vuong. Vuong discusses his latest novel, The Emperor of Gladness, which delves into the struggles of working-class life, caregiving, and survival in the fictional post-industrial town of East Gladness, Connecticut. The narrative follows Hai, a 19-year-old Vietnamese American grappling with suicidal thoughts until an unexpected relationship alters his path.

Writing on His Own Terms ([01:27] - [07:36])

Ocean Vuong opens up about his journey to writing independently after the passing of his mother. This significant life event compelled him to honor his family's legacy while redefining his own creative path.

"I started writing this book January 18, 2020. And it was my way out of grief. I thought, okay, I'm fully an orphan now, you know, I said, goodbye, Mom, I'm going to I might write this without you."
— Ocean Vuong [01:40]

Vuong reflects on the pressures of publishing and his desire to create meaningful work that resonates with his personal experiences rather than conforming to external expectations.

Depiction of Working-Class America ([07:36] - [14:00])

Vuong provides a poignant portrayal of American small-town life, contrasting it with the often glorified narrative of the American Dream. He emphasizes the stagnation and lack of upward mobility experienced by many in working-class communities.

"We really fetishize the stories that have these escape arcs and these improvement arcs. Rags to riches. It's so interesting because we see it in our films, even magazine stories..."
— Ocean Vuong [04:47]

He shares insights into his stepfather's life working at Standardyne, highlighting the hidden struggles and triumphs that go unnoticed in mainstream discussions.

"If you ask him, he would say, I have a uniform. There's a stitching on the right chest with my name, my Vietnamese name in diacritics. And our living room was so spare because we couldn't hang anything up."
— Ocean Vuong [05:27]

Themes of Kindness and Community ([14:00] - [23:57])

The conversation shifts to the profound acts of kindness that emerge within tight-knit communities. Vuong narrates a powerful scene from his novel where workers at a fast-food restaurant come together in the face of the opioid crisis, reflecting on the inherent generosity that binds them.

"Everyone says what I do is valuable... but time. The idea of engaging in this product is expensive. On the soul, on the body."
— Ocean Vuong [12:23]

He explores the concept of kindness intertwined with hope, questioning whether one can be genuinely kind without an underlying sense of hope.

Death and Suicide in Personal and Cultural Context ([22:33] - [31:14])

Vuong delves into the sensitive topic of suicide, drawing from personal loss and his late uncle's tragic passing.

"Suicide is still an act of hope. One does it in the hopes of ending immense suffering."
— Ocean Vuong [27:57]

He discusses how his novel seeks to portray the aftermath of choosing life, emphasizing the complexities and challenges that follow such a decision.

Reflections on Death Meditation and Buddhist Practices ([28:22] - [31:14])

Integrating his Buddhist beliefs, Vuong explains the practice of death meditation and its role in fostering a deeper appreciation for life.

"Thinking and meditating on death brings the propulsion of life forward because there's nothing."
— Ocean Vuong [28:22]

He shares his personal rituals of contemplating mortality to navigate daily struggles and maintain perspective.

Identity, Teaching, and Writing Philosophy ([32:34] - [46:52])

In the latter part of the episode, Vuong shifts focus to his identity and his role as an educator. He articulates his decision to limit his literary output to eight books, inspired by the Eightfold Path in Buddhism, aiming to write with profound care and intention.

"I see myself more as a teacher than a writer. To me, the books are more like performances."
— Ocean Vuong [43:57]

Vuong critiques the elitism inherent in literary institutions and emphasizes the importance of dismantling systemic barriers to create inclusive narratives.

"We have to also dismantle whiteness down to its granular othernesses in the same way we have to dismantle the stereotypes on people of color."
— Ocean Vuong [45:40]

He discusses his teaching philosophy, encouraging students to craft their unique voices without relying on traditional blueprints, thereby fostering authentic and diverse storytelling.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts ([46:52] - [48:37])

As the conversation wraps up, Vuong reflects on the legacy of his family and the responsibility he feels to honor their sacrifices through his work. He underscores the privilege of being able to pursue his passion in contrast to his family's laborious struggles.

"There is no draft that is too much. And I think for me, when I sit down to write or when I teach, I think, gosh, I need to honor them by enjoying the work I get to do, even when it's hard."
— Ocean Vuong [35:52]

Vuong concludes by reaffirming his commitment to meaningful storytelling and education, aiming to leave a lasting impact through both his books and his students.

Notable Quotes:

• "Can you be kind without hope?"
  — Ocean Vuong [12:03]

• "Identity is not finite. It is organic and growing."
  — Reginald Shepherd (Referenced by Ocean Vuong) [40:18]

• "I have good days and bad days with it. There are times I sit up and I said, that email is still messed up."
  — Ocean Vuong [30:25]

Final Notes: Ocean Vuong offers a deeply introspective and culturally rich narrative in this episode, blending personal experiences with broader societal observations. His thoughtful exploration of identity, community, and the human condition provides listeners with profound insights into his literary and philosophical perspectives.

For those interested in exploring Vuong's work further, The Emperor of Gladness offers a poignant examination of life's complexities through the lens of a marginalized community.