Patti Smith’s ‘Horses’ Turns 50

Summary

Podcast Summary

Fresh Air – Patti Smith’s ‘Horses’ Turns 50

Date: November 7, 2025
Hosts: David Bianculli, Terry Gross
Guests & Contributors: Rock critic Ken Tucker, Patti Smith (archival interviews), Laura Dern (guest segment)

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Overview

This episode commemorates the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith’s landmark debut album Horses, exploring its cultural impact, the creative processes behind it, and Smith's enduring legacy. Featuring expert commentary from rock critic Ken Tucker, and archival interviews between Terry Gross and Patti Smith from 1996 and 2010, the show dives into Smith’s early days, her collaboration with iconic photographer Robert Mapplethorpe, and the formative environment of New York’s poetry and punk scenes. The episode also briefly includes a conversation with Laura Dern about her late mother Diane Ladd, but the central focus is on Patti Smith and Horses.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ken Tucker on the 50th Anniversary of Horses

• Horses remains a unique fusion of poetry and rock, influenced by French surrealist Rimbaud and The Doors’ Jim Morrison, with Smith charting her own path between rebellious art and self-discipline.
  • Quote: “Fifty years on, Patti Smith’s Horses still sounds like nothing else before or since its arrival in 1975.” (Ken Tucker, 01:27)
• Emphasis on the collaborative alchemy between Smith and guitarist Lenny Kaye—transforming poetry readings into epic musical performances.
  • The pivotal role of St. Mark’s in the Bowery (not just CBGB’s) as Smith’s creative crucible. (03:33)
• Reflection on the famous Mapplethorpe album cover, depicting Smith’s androgynous, poetic image—a now-iconic symbol.
  • “Consider what it was like to see for the first time the 28-year-old Smith as she struck an androgynous pose in a white shirt and black tie.” (Ken Tucker, 01:34)
• Review of the 50th anniversary reissue: includes alternate takes, unreleased tracks like “Snowball,” and commentary on their differences from the original album’s vision.
  • “Right from the start, she knew how she wanted to sound and reportedly fought with her producer… to achieve the sounds she heard in her head.” (Ken Tucker, 07:33)
• Smith’s continued creative output: still touring, publishing memoirs, and engaging fans through her Substack.

2. The Patti Smith & Robert Mapplethorpe Creative Partnership

Source: 1996 Interview with Terry Gross

• Smith recalls the origin of the iconic Horses album cover photograph by Robert Mapplethorpe: spontaneous, personal, and inspired by Frank Sinatra’s swagger in “The Joker is Wild.”
  • Quote: “In the end, the final photograph…was really a tribute to Frank Sinatra...the way he slung his coat over his shoulder.” (Patti Smith, 12:31)
• Their artistic partnership began serendipitously in Brooklyn; Mapplethorpe encouraged her to embrace performance and helped finance her first single with money from his patron, Sam Wagstaff.
  • Quote: “Well, we helped each other in any way we could...mutual belief in each other’s work.” (Patti Smith, 15:44)
• Mapplethorpe’s creative restlessness led him from collage to photography, driven by a need to generate his own visual “information.”
• Smith credits Mapplethorpe with guiding her from self-doubt to recognizing art as coming from intelligence rather than neurosis.
  • “By helping me believe in myself as a person and gaining respect for my own intelligence, [he] shifted the emphasis where the work came from.” (Patti Smith, 16:26)

3. Smith’s Path from Poet to Performer

Source: 2010 Interview Excerpts

• Smith did not see herself as a singer, lacked instrumental skill, and felt outside the world of rock, particularly as a woman — inspiration from Grace Slick was “as close as it got.”
  • Quote: “I didn’t have any specific talents...girls weren't in rock and roll bands. I mean, they sang. But...the closest thing...was Grace Slick.” (Patti Smith, 23:05)
• The importance of Lenny Kaye’s creative support: “He was there to magnify my ideas.” (24:24)
• Smith’s artistic mission was about connection, not stardom. She wanted to reach “other disenfranchised people”—the odd, the marginalized, the rebels—through the album’s fusion of poetry and rock.
  • Quote: “I really recorded the record to connect with these people…to create some bridge between our great artists…[and] the new guard…” (Patti Smith, 26:00)
• Her performance style arose not from vocal perfection but from the determination to communicate humanistically through energy, poetry, defiance, and vulnerability.
• “Birdland” cited as the song most representative of this mission—built on improvisation and band communication, meant as “my telegram to the new breed.” (28:23)

4. Cultural Reception & Lasting Impact

• The Horses album cover faced resistance from the record company for its nonconformist appearance, but its instant appeal to fans—who mimicked Smith’s look—spoke to her power as an icon for outsiders.
  • Quote: “People were very upset constantly about my appearance when I was young…I would go to clubs…and at least half of the kids had white shirts and black ties on.” (Patti Smith, 30:12)
• Mapplethorpe’s photograph played a key role in launching his public career, while Smith delighted in the way fans turned her image into a badge of belonging.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ken Tucker on Smith’s singular sound:
  • “Smith had one foot in poetry, the other in rock and roll. Her spirit animals were the French surrealist Arthur Rimbaud and the Doors demigod Jim Morrison…” (01:27)
• Patti Smith on the Horses cover photo:
  • “In the end, the final photograph…was really a tribute to Frank Sinatra… the way he slung his coat over his shoulder.” (12:31)
• Patti Smith on supporting Mapplethorpe:
  • “Well, we helped each other in any way we could…mutual belief in each other’s work.” (15:44)
• Smith on making music for outsiders:
  • “I really recorded the record to connect with these people…to create some bridge between our great artists…[and] the new guard…” (26:00)
• On the reaction to her image:
  • “People loved the photograph. The people on the streets loved the photograph. And…at least half of the kids had white shirts and black ties on. It was…it was kind of cool. We were all…turned Catholic.” (30:12)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 01:27 – Ken Tucker’s review of Horses and cultural context
• 03:33 – Downtown poetry scene’s influence on Smith
• 05:42 – Smith’s leap to the Arista label and her place among Motown and pop legends
• 10:53 – Patti Smith discusses the making of the Horses cover with Mapplethorpe
• 14:35 – Smith recounts her first meeting with Mapplethorpe and their early creative support
• 17:55 – Mapplethorpe financing Smith’s first independent single
• 23:05 – Smith on not considering herself a rock singer and women in rock
• 26:00 – Artistic mission behind Horses: merging poetry/rock to reach the disenfranchised
• 28:23 – “Birdland” as emblematic of the album’s goal
• 30:12 – Cultural impact and reception of her look

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Tone & Style

The episode is reflective, intimate, and historically rich, interwoven with music clips, personal recollections, and journalistic analysis. The speakers maintain a tone of admiration, candor, and curiosity, echoing the boundary-pushing spirit of Smith’s career.

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Conclusion

Fresh Air’s 50th-anniversary tribute to Horses explores not only the album’s music and impact but the collaborative energy, revolutionary ethos, and mutual loyalty that defined Patti Smith’s artistic rise. Her story—of poet-to-rock star, outsider to icon—resonates as urgently today as it did in 1975, and the podcast captures this blend of nostalgia and ongoing relevance.

Transcript

[NPR Announcer]

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[David Biancolli]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Biancooli. Patti Smith is now considered one of the wise women of rock and roll, an eloquent chronicler of her life in music and in a series of acclaimed memoirs. But 50 years ago, she was a scrounging poet who wanted to be a rock star on her own very literary terms. And her debut album, Horses, announced a unique artist. Today we're going to listen back to portions of two of Terry's interviews with Patti Smith about her early days as a poet and performer. But first, rock critic Ken Tucker takes a look back and tells us about the new anniversary edition of Horses, which is supplemented with previously unreleased music.

[Patti Smith (performing/singing)]

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine. Milden pad of thieves, wild cord on my sleeve.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

Fifty years on, Patti Smith's Horses still sounds like nothing else before or since its arrival in 1975. At the time, Smith had one foot in poetry, the other in rock and roll. Her spirit animals were the French surrealist Arthur Rimbaud and the Doors demigod Jim Morrison, both bad boys who died young. They inspired Patti as self mythologizing rebellious innovators, but they also served as warning lessons in the self control and discipline necessary to be a long lasting pro artist, which the 78 year old Smith has indeed become. Consider, however, what it was like to see for the first time the 28 year old Smith as she struck an androgynous pose in a white shirt and black tie. Cover photo by pal Robert Mapplethorpe. And consider what it must have been like to first hear her tremulous croon on a song like Free Money.

[Patti Smith (performing/singing)]

Every night before I could sleep.

[David Biancolli]

Find.

[Patti Smith (performing/singing)]

A ticket, win a lottery Scoop the pearls up from the sea, Cash them in and buy you all the things you need Every night before I Where's my head? See those dollar bills girl squirrel in my bed I know they're stolen but I don't feel bad I dig that money buyer things you never had oh baby, it would mean so too much to me.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

Music critics write about 1970s downtown Manhattan Patti Smith performing at CBGB's and Max's Kansas City, but they ignore or aren't aware of the true crucible of her talent, St Mark's in the Bowery, the Lower east side church and ground zero for the new York School of Poetry. This was the site of open readings where Patty could rub shoulders with key influences like Allen Ginsberg, John Giorno and Ann Waldman. Patti's print poetry was flatly derivative. But Smith's creative breakthrough came in collaboration with guitarist Lenny Kaye. Together they set her poems to music, with Lenny plugging in to accompany her words at readings. Very quickly, they were welding electric guitar to epic creations, as in this nine minutes plus opus, combining one of her poems with a cover of Chris Kenner's Land of a Thousand Dances. It's the song that gave the album its name.

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Boy was in the hallway drinking a glass of tea from the other end of the hallway a rhythm was generating Another boy was sliding up the hallway he merged perfectly with the hallway he merged perfectly the mirror in the hallway.

[Patti Smith (performing/singing)]

The boy looked at Johnny Johnny wanted to run but the movie kept moving as planned the boy took Johnny he pressed him against a locker he drove it in he drove it home he drove it deep in Johnny the boy disappeared Johnny fell his knees started crashing his head against a locker Started crashing his head against a locker Started laughing and sturdy when suddenly Johnny gets a feeling he's been surrounded by horses Horses H Horses Coming in in all directions White shining silver studs with their nose in flames he saw horses horses, horses, horses, horses, horses, horses, horses.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

Patti quickly went full on rock star, getting signed to Clive Davis, then new Arista Records alongside unlikely label mates such as Barry Manilow and Lou Rawls. At once a punk and an artiste, Smith had to grapple with the question of what it meant to be avant garde when you also love the Marvelettes.

[Patti Smith (performing/singing)]

Every day things change and the world puts on a new face. Certain things rearrange and this old world seems like a new place.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

That's the hunter gets captured by the game. A 60s hit for Motown's Marvelettes, written by Smokey Robinson and adored by Smith, who has always had juicy taste in oldies. The new 50th anniversary edition of Horses includes some alternate takes of songs from this album and others that would appear on subsequent releases. The one previously unreleased song is called Snowball.

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Oh, don't look behind me now I know what's coming Big white hair above.

[Patti Smith (performing/singing)]

Light looking like a snowball.

[NPR Announcer]

When it hits me I'm so amazed when it.

[Patti Smith (performing/singing)]

Hits me I'm feeling crazed when it hits me I start to recall Memories flooding like a snowball rolling down the hill Snowball giving me but you your face that I used to see Places that we used to be this time.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

It'S pretty easy to hear why Snowball didn't make the horse's cut. It's a more conventional pop song, one that doesn't possess the grand delirium Smith was going for. Right from the start, she knew how she wanted to sound and reportedly fought with her producer, the Velvet Underground's John Cale, to achieve the sounds she heard in her head.

[Patti Smith (performing/singing)]

Car stopped in a clearing. Ribbon of life it was nearing. I saw the boy break out of his skin. My heart turned over and I cried and he cried. Break it up. I don't understand. Break it up.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

These days, Patti Smith is still touring. She has a substack newsletter to chronicle her dreamiest thoughts and has a new memoir called Bread of Angels. The reissue of Horses fits right into her current context, sounding as urgent and immediate as it did a half century ago.

[David Biancolli]

Ken Tucker reviewed the new 50th anniversary edition of Horses. It was released last month by Legacy Recordings. After a break, we'll listen to a portion of Terry's 1996 interview with Patti Smith. This is FRESH AIR.

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[David Biancolli]

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[Laura Dern]

On the Throughline.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

Podcast from NPR, the story of the undersea cables that run the Internet.

[Laura Dern]

Other historians have compared it to the.

[NPR Announcer]

Apollo missions of going to the moon.

[Laura Dern]

Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Biancolli]

November 10th marks 50 years since Patti Smith released her debut album, Horses. One of the biggest influences on Smith was her friendship with the artist Robert Mapplethorpe. They both were 20 year old aspiring artists when they met in 1967 in New York City. They soon moved in together and helped nurture each other's artistic development. Mapplethorpe became one of the most controversial artists of his time. His photographs of nudes, often in erotic and sadomasochistic poses, put him at the center of a battle over censorship and federal funding of the arts. Mapplethorpe died of AIDS in 1989 at the age of 42. Terry first spoke with Patti Smith in 1996. When Smith had published a book of short prose poems dedicated to and inspired by Mapplethorpe. The book was called the Coral Sea. Terry asked Smith about a famous photograph he had taken of her.

[Terry Gross]

He took the photograph, perhaps the most famous photograph of you that was on your. The COVID of your album Horses, I think, in 1975, in which you're wearing a kind of oversized white shirt and an undone tie with like a suit jacket slung over your shoulder. Tell us how that photograph came about.

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Well, we. We wanted to take the COVID and Robert knew where he wanted to take it. It was up in Sam Wagstaff's apartment in New York City, which was very white, a very white room. And there was a triangle of light that used to come through a window. And he was extremely interested in photographing that triangle. And we went up there and I remember the lights started changing and he wanted us to hurry up and we had to run. We couldn't get a cabin. We had to run as fast as we could because he could really feel the light changing. And in terms of my clothing, it was just my usual clothes I used to like. I really wanted to have a Baudelairian type of look. I wanted a black and white, sort of a mixture of just how I was and little 19th century feel in it. But in the end, the final photograph, which some people have made quite a bit of the particular pose or stance in the photograph was really a tribute to Frank Sinatra.

[NPR Announcer]

Frank Sinatra?

[Terry Gross]

He knew the capital years?

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Well, no, actually he did a movie, I think it was called. Oh, Man, I don't think it was Pal Joey, it was the Joey Lewis Story. And Joey Lewis was a singer that got in trouble with the mob and got his throat cut and he wound up a comedian. I don't know if you remember that.

[Terry Gross]

But yeah, it's the movie that all the Way comes from.

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Yeah, that's right. The last scene of it. Frank Sinatra's walking alone down a dark street with a lantern. There's a lantern lit street. And he sort of philosophically talking to himself in a pane of glass and he slings his coat over his shoulder and philosophically walks into the city sunset. But I always thought it was cool the way he slung his coat over his shoulder. So that was the only. There was only a couple of photographs in that particular shooting like that. But that was the one Robert picked, the Frank Sinatra shot.

[Terry Gross]

The Joker is Wild, I think.

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's it. The Joker is Wild. Appropriate title.

[Terry Gross]

You met Robert Mapplethorpe in 1967 when you were 20. Do I have that right?

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Yes.

[David Biancolli]

How did you meet?

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Well, we met in Brooklyn. I was around Pratt Institute of Art, where he went to school. I had a friend there, and my friend had moved, and I was looking for my friend, and I knocked on the door where he used to be, and someone said, well, I don't know where your friend is, but you can ask the guy in there. And I went in another room and saw this kid sleeping on this cot. And I just stood there and was watching him sleep. And he opened his eyes and smiled at me. And that's how we met.

[Terry Gross]

Now, was he already taking photographs when you met?

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

No, he didn't start taking photographs till late 69 when we were at the Chelsea Hotel. He really only started taking photographs. He was doing drawings, paintings and collages and some constructions. And then later he did installations. But in his huge montages and collages, he used a lot of magazine pictures, holy cards, existing pictures, reproductions of Michelangelo, who he greatly admired, reproductions of statues and sculpture. But he was never satisfied. And he really started taking photographs to insert within his other work. He didn't set out to become a photographer. He really just wanted to create his own information for his drawings and montages.

[Terry Gross]

Did you help each other with your work?

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Always.

[Terry Gross]

What ways were you able to help him, and how did he help you?

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Well, we helped each other in any way we could. Whether it be financially or an encouraging word or constructive criticism. And just mutual belief in each other's work. When you. That's something really that no one can duplicate nor take away from you. Is when you have another human being that completely believes in your work.

[Terry Gross]

Was he the first person who completely believed in your work?

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

I'd say so, yes.

[Terry Gross]

You've said that Mabel Thorpe helped you make the transition from psychotic to serious art student. What did you mean by that?

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Well, I'm never quite sure of what I meant. You know, when people ask me to explain what I said 20 years ago or something, I couldn't exactly say what I meant, but I probably. When I met him, I felt like my work was really an extension of my neuroses. And instead of an extension of intelligence. And he. By helping me believe in myself as a person and gaining respect for my own intelligence, shifted the emphasis where the work came from. I really did start writing and drawing when I was younger to relieve myself from certain emotional tensions. But like what? Well, I mean, whatever tensions people have when they're. When they're growing up, whether it Be fear or sexual tensions or parental tension, youthful paranoia. I. I don't know. Name it.

[Terry Gross]

I think he gave you the money to record your first record, the 45 that had hey Joe on one side and Piss Factory on the other. Tell me the story of that.

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Well, it's really simply Robert. You know, for a long time I had helped him financially and Robert's situation got more solid. He had a really benevolent and wonderful patron, Sam Wagstaff. And through Sam Wagstaff, Robert was able to finance our first independent. Well, our only independent single. And that's all the story was. I wanted to do a single and didn't have the money and he gave it to me. So we went into Electric Ladyland one night and. And did it one night.

[Patti Smith (performing/singing)]

We may look the same. Shoulder to shoulder, sweating 110 degrees but I will never faint. I will never faint. They laugh and they expect me to faint, but I will never faint. I refuse to lose, I refuse to fall down because, you see, it's the monotony that's got to me. Every afternoon like the last one Every afternoon like a rerun next to Dot hook. Yeah, we look the same Both pumping steel, both sweating but, you know, she got nothing to hide and I got something to hide here called desire I got something to hide here called desire and I will get out of here. You know, the fear potion is just about to come in. My nose is the taste of sugar and I got nothing to hide here save desire. And I'm gonna go, I'm gonna get out of here. I'm gonna get out of here. I'm gonna get on that train and I'm gonna go on that train and go to New York City. I'm gonna be somebody. I'm getting.

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Robert always, when we were younger, he always thought that I should sing, although it was never really an ambition of mine. And he was really happy when I wanted to do the single and he was really pleased to be a part of it.

[Terry Gross]

Had he heard you sing? I mean, would you sing? Were you singing in the house before you were singing and performance?

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Yeah, you know, I, you know, be making spaghetti or washing clothes and sing. I don't used to sing little songs. And for some reason he liked my singing. He used to think I used to sing little blues songs and things. And he used to think I. Well, he always thought I should sing.

[Terry Gross]

You think you would have done it if he didn't nudge you in that direction?

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Well, he did push me towards that, but it was a series of people. Actually, you know, Sam Shepard was really instrumental in getting me to sing in public. I had a few different friends that seemed seemed to think that I had a bend toward that. And I really do believe if it wasn't for those friends, Lenny Kay and a few others, no, I don't believe that I would be singing, at least not recording. I mean, I might still be singing around the house making spaghetti, but I can't say that I would have been recording.

[David Biancolli]

Patti Smith speaking to Terry Gross in 1996. After a break, we'll listen to portions of another of their conversations, this one from 2010. Also, we'll hear from actress Laura Dern in a 2023 interview discussing her mother, Diane Laddie, who died this week at age 89. And I'll review Pluribus, the new series from Breaking Bad creator Vince Gilligan. I'm David B. And Cooley, and this is FRESH air.

[Patti Smith (performing/singing)]

Dreaming Hotel. You just had to quarrel Sent you away. I was looking for you. Now you got gone. Are you on the phone? Another dimension.

[David Biancolli]

We're commemorating the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's debut album, Horses. She's considered the godmother of punk. With her first album, she created a hybrid of poetry and rock and established a high energy performance style that was sometimes aggressive and sometimes ecstatic. When Terry spoke with Patti Smith In 2010, Smith had written the memoir Just Kids about growing up in New Jersey, moving to New York in 1967, evolving into a poet, songwriter and performer and beginning a relationship with artist Robert Mapplethorpe.

[Terry Gross]

You say that until a friend suggested that you be in a rock and roll band, it had never occurred to you, it was just like not part of your world?

[NPR Announcer]

No. Why would it? You know, I'm not a musician. You know, I don't play any. I didn't play any instrument. I didn't have any specific talents. I mean, I came from the South Jersey Philadelphia area and in the early 60s everybody sang. They sang on street corners, three part harmonies acapella. I knew most of my friends were better singers than me. There was nothing in what I did that would give a sense that I should be in a rock and roll band. Also, girls weren't in rock and roll bands. I mean, they sang. But, you know, the closest thing to a rock singer, a real rock singer that we had was Grace Slick. And I certainly didn't have Grace Slick's voice.

[Terry Gross]

So you found the guitarist Lenny Kaye. You read an article by him about a cappella groups and you really liked it. And you found him, you sought him out he was working at a bookstore in the Village. If you had not found Lenny Kaye, do you think you wouldn't have been in a rock and roll band? Because he has been your guitarist kind of forever.

[NPR Announcer]

Well, I can't say what would happen. It was really Sam Shepard who suggested, you know, I said to Sam, when Robert helped me through Gerard Malanga to get my first reading, I said, I gotta do something special, because if I don't do something special, Gregory's gonna, you know, throw tomatoes at me or something. Gregory Corso, who was mentoring me not to be a boring poet. And I said, I want to do something special. And Sam said, well, you have these. And I said, well, I could sing a cappella songs. And he said, well, do you know anybody that plays guitar? And I said, well, this fella Lenny K. Mentioned, he played a little guitar. And I don't know how I would have evolved. Because the thing about Lenny that made him different from everyone else is Lenny was there to magnify my ideas. He really. I'm not saying. I'm not saying he was totally selfless. He had a sense of himself, but he was completely there for me.

[Terry Gross]

You were saying that you didn't have, you know, you didn't think of yourself as a singer per se, that your friends had better voices than you did, but you created this new style, really, that was a combination of poetry and music. It wasn't about having, like, a perfect singer's voice. It was the style that you performed and the personality that you put into it. The kind of defiance that you had in some songs, the energy. Would you talk about what you felt you were doing early on that was different from what you'd seen other people do.

[NPR Announcer]

I think my perception of myself was really as a performer and a communicator. My first album, Horses, my. My Mission and the Collective Band Mission was really, on one level, to merge poetry and rock and roll, but more humanistically, to reach out to other disenfranchised people. You know, in 1975, the, you know, young homosexual kids were being disowned by their families. You know, kids like me who were a little weird or a little different were often persecuted in their small towns. And it wasn't just, you know, because of sexual persuasion. It was for any reason, for being an artist, for being different, for having political views, for just wanting to be free. And I really recorded the record to connect with these people and also in terms of our place in rock and roll, just to create some bridge between our great artists that we had just lost Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison among them, and to create space for what I felt would be the new guard, which I didn't really include myself. I was really anticipating people or bands like the Clash and the Ramones. I was anticipating in my mind that a new breed would come. Television. A new breed would come, and they would be less materialistic, more bonded with the people, and not so glamorous. That's. I didn't. I wasn't thinking so much of music. I wasn't thinking so much of perfection or stardom or. I had this mission, and I thought I would do this record and then go back to my writing and my drawing and return to my somewhat abnormal, normal life. But Horses took me on a whole different path.

[Terry Gross]

Is there a track from Horses that particularly illustrates what you were describing as what your mission was?

[NPR Announcer]

Birdland.

[Terry Gross]

Okay.

[NPR Announcer]

I think Birdland, because, for various reasons, Birdland was an improvisation built on an improvisation. It so much exemplifies the communication of my band, especially between Richard, Lenny and I. And it speaks of this new breed, you know, the. The new generations who will be dreaming in animation. You know, the new generations that will race across the fields no longer presidents, but prophets. That. That was my. It was like my telegram to the new breed.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, let's hear it. This is Birdland from Patti Smith's first album, Horses.

[Patti Smith (performing/singing)]

I'm helium raving in this movie. Be his mind. So he cried out as he stretched the sky pushing it all out like Lake Dick's cartoon. Am I all alone? This generation, we'll just be dreaming of animation night and day. It won't let up. It won't let up. And I see them coming in. Oh, I couldn't hear them before, but I hear now it's a platinum. Lights moving in like black ships. They were moving in streams of them. And he put up his hands and he said, it's me, it's me I'll give you my eyes Take me up oh, now please take me up Robert.

[Terry Gross]

Mapplethorpe did the very iconic photograph for the COVID of Horses. What impact do you think that photo had on how people perceived you? Well.

[NPR Announcer]

I. You know, I don't know. I know people really liked it. I know the record company didn't.

[Terry Gross]

They didn't. That's such a great photo. Why didn't the record company like it?

[NPR Announcer]

Because my hair was messy. Because, you know, it just. It was a little incomprehensible to them at the time. But I fought for it, and they did try to airbrush my hair, but I made sure that was fixed. People were very upset constantly about my appearance when I was young. I don't know what it was. You know, they just it was very hard for them to factor. But I've always had that problem, even as a child. You know, I used to go to the beach when I was a little kid and just want to wear my dungarees and my flannel shirt. And the whole time people would be, why are you wearing that? Why don't you get a bathing suit? You know, it's like, leave me alone. It's just like, I'm not bothering you. Why are you worried about what I look like? It's just I'm not trying to bother anybody. But people loved the photograph. The people on the streets loved the photograph. And it gave Robert some instant attention. I think it was his, you know, where he it really helped, you know, launch his work into the public consciousness. And so we were both very happy about that. And the funniest thing and sort of the sweetest thing was when I started performing after the record came out, I would go to clubs anywhere. It could be Denmark, could be in Youngstown, Ohio. And I would come on stage and at least half of the kids had white shirts and black ties on. It was it was it was kind of cool. We were all we all had suddenly turned Catholic.

[David Biancolli]

Patti Smith speaking with Terry Gross in 2010. There's a new 50th anniversary edition of her debut album, Horses, now out on Legacy Recordings. She also has a new memoir titled Bread of Angels, coming up. We remember actress Diane Ladd, who died Monday at the age of 89. This is FRESH AIR.

[NPR Announcer]

I'm Rachel Martin.

[Laura Dern]

If you're tired of small talk, check out the Wild Card Podcast. I invite influential thinkers to open up about the big topics we all think about, but rarely talk about. Tune in this fall to hear Mel Robbins, Malala Yousafzai and Brene Brown talk about everything from grief and God to ambition and forgiveness. Watch or listen on the NPR app, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. There is so much happening in politics in any given week.

[NPR Announcer]

You might need help putting it all.

[Laura Dern]

In perspective as your week draws to a close. Join the NPR Politics podcast team for our weekly roundup. Here, our best political reporters zoom into the biggest stories of of the week, not just what they mean, but what they mean for you all in under 30 minutes. Listen to the weekly roundup every Friday on the NPR Politics Podcast.

[David Biancolli]

On this week's books we've loved. We're headed to the open range with Morning Edition's Michelle Martin to break down.

[Laura Dern]

Charles Portis classic True Grit.

[David Biancolli]

Find books we've loved in NPR's Book of the Day podcast feed on the.

[Terry Gross]

NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Biancolli]

Actress Diane Ladd died Monday at the age of 89. Her most famous film roles include Martin Scorsese's Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore in which she played the foul mouthed Southern waitress Flo. Here she is telling customers to leave the other waitress alone.

[Patti Smith (performing/singing)]

Everybody can see she's got big on.

[NPR Announcer]

Her, but hands off, let the girl do her work. If there's gonna be any grab assing around here, grab mine. Dave, you look but don't you touch.

[David Biancolli]

And David Lynch's Wild at Heart in which she played a former beauty queen who hires a hitman to kill her daughter's boyfriend. The boyfriend is played by Nicolas Cage. Here he is calling the house to talk to her daughter.

[Terry Gross]

Can I talk to Lula?

[NPR Announcer]

There's no way in hell that you're gonna talk to her.

[Laura Dern]

If you even think of about seeing Lula, you're dead.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

What?

[NPR Announcer]

You heard me. And don't you ever call here again.

[David Biancolli]

Ladd's real life daughter Laura Dern played her daughter in the film. They worked together again in mother daughter roles in the film Rambling Rose and both were nominated for Academy Awards. They continued in that pairing. In the HBO series Enlightened. In 2023, Terry Gross spoke with Laura Dern. The actress had just written a book about conversations with her mother. It grew out of her mother's diagnosis of lung disease. When the doctor had given her six months to live, he suggested that walks might help increase her lung capacity. So Dern began taking her mother on 15 minute walks every day.

[Terry Gross]

What is something that you asked her on these walks that you don't think you otherwise might have asked her? That was important for you to hear about?

[Laura Dern]

Well, my mom says we both thought I was dying. So we spilled the beans. And most of us within our own family particularly don't spill the beans. Or we wait till it's too late and say, oh, I wish I'd asked them this or that. And what shocked me as I would start to engage her in topics is how little I had asked this only child, single mother who raised me an only child. And yet I hadn't asked her. Why did you, from this tiny town in Mississippi think I'm going to be an actor. That's what I want to do. What, what was the first movie that inspired you? Who were the actors you fell in love with? Given That I became an actor as well. And we worked together, as you mentioned, a number of times. Wouldn't that be a natural conversation? It never came up. Things as seemingly mundane as favorite foods, favorite colors, favorite flowers that were just to pass the time. It moved me so much how little the people in our most intimate relationships, how little we ask. And I know her emotionally, but I never asked where those feelings stemmed from.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. I want to play a scene you did with your mother in the HBO series Enlightened. I'm not going to set up the whole story. I will just say that you had basically a ragey nervous breakdown at work, and you go off to rehab in Hawaii, where you learn to meditate and you return home changed by it. You've learned to meditate to calm the rage and anger and to center yourself and focus. And you come home with an exercise that you're supposed to write a letter to somebody who you have difficulty communicating with. So you come home and your mother, who's played by your mother, Diane Ladd, is there. And here's the scene where you start reading her the letter that you were told to write in rehab.

[Laura Dern]

Mother. They have asked me to write a letter to the person I have the most difficulty communicating with. It was not hard for me to decide who that person is.

[NPR Announcer]

How long is this gonna take?

[Laura Dern]

Do you have somewhere to be?

[NPR Announcer]

No, I just wanted to know how.

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Long this is gonna take.

[NPR Announcer]

Not long.

[Laura Dern]

I've just gotta read you what's on these papers.

[NPR Announcer]

Well, I can read, honey, but I'm.

[Laura Dern]

Supposed to read it to you. Mom, that's the point. Okay, Amy, you and I have been through a lot. Dad's death, all of Bethany's issues, my divorce, money problems. You name it, we have dealt with it. I know I have disappointed you in many ways. And yes, there have been times that you have disappointed me. But I want to change that. And I truly believe that we can change. And if we can change, anything is possible. If we can change, the whole world can change for the better.

[Terry Gross]

I don't know what that means, honey.

[Laura Dern]

Mom, can you just let me finish and we'll talk after?

[Terry Gross]

Is this what they asked you to do up there?

[Laura Dern]

One of the things, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

And what medications did they give you?

[NPR Announcer]

Mom, nothing.

[Laura Dern]

I'm off my medication.

[Terry Gross]

Well, why on earth.

[Laura Dern]

Mom, I don't want to talk about my medications. I'm here reading you.

[NPR Announcer]

I just want to be sure that you are okay.

[Laura Dern]

Okay, I just.

[Terry Gross]

Look, don't get irritated with me because.

[Laura Dern]

I just want what's best for you.

[Terry Gross]

That is all I have ever wanted. Such a beautiful scene about miscommunication and not understanding each other and having like a different approach to expressing things. When you work with your mother, as you've done several times, does it make you self conscious because you know each other so well? It's not like a professional relationship because you have, you know, the deepest personal relationship anybody has.

[Laura Dern]

Well, first of all, thank you for playing that scene. I'm just smiling and cracking up over here as I'm listening to it because it is the extraordinary writing of Mike White, who, you know, just.

[Terry Gross]

He's great. Yes.

[Laura Dern]

Navigated the complexity of that dynamic, as you mentioned. And you know, in the book, in our conversations, my mom talked about the joy she had remembering the first time we worked together on Wild at Heart, the first film we did together. And we had to do this very emotional scene. And she remembered me preparing for the scene at one end of the set and her at the other end, both doing our work, both having trained separately as professionals, you know, not engaged in that together, and then coming together to do this very emotional scene. And the camera rolls and David lynch called action. And it's very emotional. And I'm crying in her arms. And he said, cut. And mom describes us pulling away and her looking in my eyes and realizing that she knew exactly what had brought up the emotion in me. And I looked at her and felt I knew the emotion and the pain she was expressing in the scene. Both very personal, both never discussed. But we just know each other so well. And so at that moment, we started laughing hysterically right after this big crying scene. And mom describes the whole crew looking at us as if we were nuts. But it was such a personal, intimate, beautiful thing to share the kind of knowing and bringing it into this professional space, but also the boundaries of that professional space that it's sort of this unspoken language, or so you wouldn't ask.

[Terry Gross]

Your mother, what were you thinking of when you made that scene?

[Laura Dern]

Exactly. And yet we knew. And yet we knew and never discussed it.

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Yeah.

[David Biancolli]

Laura Dern speaking with Terry Gross in 2023. Her mother, Diane Laddie, died Monday at the age of 89. Coming up, I review Pluribus, the new Apple TV plus series from Vince Gilligan, creator of Breaking Bad. This is Fresh air. Making time for the news is important, but when you need a break, we've got you covered on All Songs Considered, NPR's music podcast. Think of it like a music discovery show. A well deserved escape with friends. And yeah, some serious music insight. I'm gonna keep it real. I have no idea what this story is about. Hear new episodes of All Songs Considered every Tuesday wherever you get Podcasts this.

[NPR Announcer]

Message comes from Superhuman, the AI productivity suite that gives you superpowers everywhere you work with Grammarly, mail and coda coming together. You get proactive help across your workflow so you can outsmart the chaos experience AI that proactively helps you go from to do to done faster. Unleash your superhuman potential today. Learn [e-mail] podcast that's superhuman.com podcast fall.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

In love with new music every Friday.

[David Biancolli]

At All songs considered.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

That's NPR's music recommendation. Podcast Fridays are where we spend our whole show sharing all the greatest new.

[David Biancolli]

Releases of the week.

[Laura Dern]

Make the hunt for new music a.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

Part of your life again.

[David Biancolli]

Tap into new Music Friday from All.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

Songs Considered, available wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Biancolli]

Vince Gilligan, the creator of Breaking Bad and co creator of Better Call Saul, has a new series called Pluribus. It stars Rhea Seehorn from Better Call Saul, and the first two of its nine episodes premiere tonight on Apple tv. Plus, seven of the nine were made available for preview and I've seen them all. But I want you to have as much fun watching Pluribus as I did, so I'm going to say as little as possible about what happens in them. Apple TV already has renewed Pluribus for a season two, and it's a smart move. Vince Gilligan once again has come up with a boldly brilliant TV series. The best way to describe Pluribus without revealing anything is to think of it as an episode of the Twilight Zone spun off into its own series. It begins with scientists monitoring a radio telescope and discovering something new and exciting. There's gotta be something bouncing off the off the.

[Terry Gross]

It's not bouncing off the moon, Dave.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

Maybe it's those Chatty Cathys at the Forest Service.

[David Biancolli]

I hate those guys, always on the.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

Radios talking about trees.

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Dave, it's not Smokey Bear we're picking up.

[Laura Dern]

Look at that signal.

[Terry Gross]

It's drifting.

[David Biancolli]

What is it then?

[Laura Dern]

Looks like simple pulse width modulation.

[David Biancolli]

Old school.

[NPR Announcer]

Like Morse code.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

Maybe somehow it's the time signal out of Fort Collins. They use pulse width modulation.

[Terry Gross]

It's not the atomic clock. The atomic clock changes every minute because it's a clock. This is the same exact Data repeated every 78 seconds. Plus this is coming from 600 light years away.

[David Biancolli]

That's similar to the way another Fantasy Drama Series 3 Body Problem, began recently. But this new series has other plots and plot twists on its mind. Before too long we meet the protagonist of Pluribus. She's Carol Sturka, best selling author of sexy, sappy sci fi fantasy novels, and she's played by Rhea Seehorn, who was so unforgettably real and relatable as Kim Wexler in Better Call Saul. We meet Carol at a Barnes and Noble in Dallas, reading from her book to her adoring fans, then signing copies and interacting with them before retreating with her agent and best friend Helen to a local bar. At the bar, Helen, played by Miriam Shore, offers a toast to the new book tour. A toast Carol rejects Best book tour. What is that?

[Patti Smith (interviewee)]

Is that like best stomach cancer? You endure it, you do not toast it. Oh, how I hate all those paying.

[NPR Announcer]

Customers showering me with love and respect.

[David Biancolli]

And why do I have to make so much money?

[Terry Gross]

How do you bear it?

[David Biancolli]

Carol has fame and money and a beautiful house back home in Albuquerque. Yes, once again Gilligan and company have returned there to film parts of this new series, but all that doesn't seem to make her happy, and when people around her suddenly start acting very strangely, she feels even more isolated. Apple tv, in its own press materials, describes the premise of Pluribus this the most miserable person on earth, it says, must save the world from happiness. And even if I wanted to elaborate, the streaming services pressed restrictions on spoilers make it next to impossible. I've never seen such a long, detailed list of plot points not to reveal. But I don't mind. If you stick with the Twilight Zone analogy, you'll notice echoes in Pluribus from various classic Zone episodes. A woman all alone in her home, fighting against a mysterious enemy surrounding her. A woman fighting against a society that wants her to conform and act just like them. A man all alone with buildings and streets deserted, trying to survive. And so on. Vince Gilligan was a writer and producer on the X Files, and his love of the genre comes through loud and clear here like a radio signal from across the universe. And what he's doing in Pluribus, while having fun with themes from the Twilight Zone and classic sci fi films like Invasion of the Body Snatchers somehow is paradoxically bordering on unique. Yes, he and his creative team of writers and directors dip into Gilligan's familiar bag of tricks. Beautiful photography, long extended set pieces and montages, intense and lengthy conversations among characters. But the way those characters are introduced and dealt with here, and the way the plot widens and deepens to say so much about so many Big Idea topics, it's as singularly and hypnotically odd in its way as Twin Peaks was. It's disturbing, unpredictable, and alternately funny and creepy. And while Rhea Seehorn doesn't carry all of the weight of Pluribus, other co stars, including Carolina Waidra and Carlos Manuel Vesca, are wonderful too. Her Carol is a character you'll relate to, laugh at and buy into completely. The opening episode, written and directed by Gilligan, takes her on a wild and crazy ride, and we go right along with her. And Gilligan and Pluribus ask a larger question as well. Fighting for life and liberty. That's a given. But what if the pursuit of happiness is vastly overrated, maybe even dangerous? On Monday's show, Academy Award winner Tim Robbins talks about Topsy Turvy, the new play he wrote in response to pandemic isolation. From the Shawshank Redemption to founding the Actors Gang, Robbins discusses how his commitment to creating politically relevant art has shaped his four decades career. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram prfreshair. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Deanna Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper Hope Wilson is our consulting visual producer for Terry Gross and Tanya Moseley. I'm David Biancooli.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

You care about what's happening in the world? Stay informed with NPR's State of the World podcast. In just a few minutes, we take you to stories around the globe. You might hear the latest developments in world conflicts or about what global events mean for the price of your coffee. Listen to the State of the world podcast from NPR.

[NPR Announcer]

Keeping up with the news can feel like a 24 hour job.

[David Biancolli]

Luckily, it is our job.

[NPR Announcer]

Every hour on the NPR News now podcast, we take the latest, most important stories happening and we package them into five minute episodes so you can easily.

[David Biancolli]

Squeeze them in between meetings.

[NPR Announcer]

And on your way to that thing, listen to the NPR News now podcast now.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

Instead of letting an algorithm throw mediocre.

[NPR Announcer]

Podcast recommendations at you, Sign up for NPR's Pod Club newsletter.

[Laura Dern]

We comb through hours of audio to.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

Find the gems, the episodes that will.

[Laura Dern]

Make you gasp, cry or crack up in a public place.

[Ken Tucker (rock critic)]

Then every week, we send those pics to your inbox and tell you why.

[NPR Announcer]

They'Re worth your time. Subscribe [e-mail] podclub.