Poet Ada Limón On Writing In Uncertain Times

Summary

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Fresh Air – Poet Ada Limón On Writing In Uncertain Times

Aired: October 6, 2025
Host: Tonya Mosley | Guest: Ada Limón (24th U.S. Poet Laureate)

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Episode Overview

This Fresh Air episode features a rich conversation with Ada Limón, acclaimed poet and former U.S. Poet Laureate, about her new collection Startlement: New and Selected Poems, her journey as a poet, the role of poetry in turbulent times, and how she’s sought to bring poetry into public life during her tenure as Laureate. The discussion delves into Limón's personal evolution, the challenges and joys of holding national roles, and writing in the face of climate crisis, societal unrest, and the ever-present tension between beauty and suffering.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Concept of "Startlement" and Its Place in Limón’s Work

• Startlement is both the collection's title and a featured poem, encapsulating two decades of Limón’s poetry.
• Limón describes "startlement" as “a forgotten pleasure, the pleasure of the unexpected... not being scared of being amazed, but also the way something can shove you off its center for a moment and being available to that moment” (03:32).
• The word, which feels “almost Victorian,” resonated with Limón as a collective noun for poems: “a startlement of poems, like a murder of crows...”.

Notable quote:

“At its core, it’s about wonder, about not being scared of being amazed.”
— Ada Limón (03:32)

2. Poetry and the Climate Crisis

Limón was commissioned to write "Startlement" for the Fifth National Climate Assessment—an unusual fusion of science and lyricism.

• She was urged not to make it "nostalgic" because, as a scientist said, "there is no going back... whatever happens next is the way forward" (04:34).
• The poem’s tone aims to accept change and foster unity across species and communities amid uncertainty.

3. Reflecting on Two Decades of Personal and Artistic Growth

• The new collection includes poems from Limón’s early 20s to her 40s, chronicling changing perspectives on loss, identity, and kinship.
• Limón speaks about “staring at the work you've made and start to think about... how it reflects... who you are as a human being and the people you've lost” (06:18).
• With generosity, she views this compilation as “an offering” to her past self.

4. Early Works and Evolution of Voice

• Limón reads her poem “Centerfold,” written at age 22, capturing childhood innocence confronted with sexuality.
• Discusses the dual perspective—childish awe and adult awareness:

  “As you age, you begin to understand the terror... and the danger that surrounds women... This poem wants to hold both of those things at the same time.” (09:06)

5. The Role and Responsibility of Poet Laureate

• Limón reflects on her unprecedented two-term tenure as Laureate:
  • A major project involved installing poetry picnic tables in national parks (the “You Are Here” project).
  • She had a poem engraved on NASA’s Europa Clipper spacecraft (10:53).
• These roles were seen as national service, demanding both creative vision and public engagement.

6. "A New National Anthem" & The Poet’s Role of Critique

• Limón reads her powerful poem critiquing and reimagining what national symbols represent; originally written in a “fury” in 2016 (12:40).
  • She feared the poem could bar her from being Laureate, but it became a favorite of then-Librarian of Congress Dr. Carla Hayden.
  • The poem interrogates patriotism, honesty, and “the song that says, my bones are your bones... and isn’t that enough?” (13:58)

Notable quote:

“I think that poetry allows us to hold all of those realities and make space for the full spectrum of... truths.”
— Ada Limón (16:43)

7. Poetry in Public Spaces: National Parks Project

• Limón’s “You Are Here” project placed poems in national parks, offering unexpected poetic encounters with nature (19:05).
  • Observed visitors “get so quiet” and contemplative, hoping poetry would help “sing back to the places we love” and promote reciprocity with the world.

8. Finding Poetry Young: The Elizabeth Bishop Revelation

• Recounts reading Elizabeth Bishop's “One Art” in high school, which transformed her understanding of poetry from puzzle to music (22:22).
  • Limón was struck by the poem’s emotional progression and the potency of the “you” in poetry.

Notable quote:

“The art of losing isn’t hard to master... Even losing you. The ‘you’ in poetry is everything.”
— Ada Limón (reflecting on Bishop’s poem, 23:16)

9. Becoming (and Surviving as) a Poet

• Limón recalls the moment she and her playwright friend, in their “Pacific Northwest” kitchen, confessed their artistic dreams while splitting a tomato (25:17).
• Discusses the reality of doing creative work alongside “real jobs” in marketing and copywriting—never emotionally investing in ads, saving that for poetry.
  • Marketing taught her about “the absurdity of language” and helped develop a pragmatic, playful relationship with words.

10. Doubt, Service, and Poetry’s Purpose

• Limón acknowledges recurring doubts: “Sometimes it’s difficult to not think, ‘I need to immediately go into full-time activist mode’... then there are times where I think that poetry is my way of serving” (31:03).
• She reflects on the “beautiful doubt” that keeps her questioning poetry’s efficacy—and the importance of acknowledging practical needs alongside creative pursuits.

Notable quote:

“Doubt is so beautiful because I distrust certainty sometimes.”
— Ada Limón (31:03)

11. Public Voice vs. Private Self

• On shifting from Ada-the-poet to Ada-the-Laureate:
  • The Laureate is “a symbol... you become a part of something”; poetry becomes a representation of the art form and the country (37:04).
  • After her term, Limón is “returning to myself... embracing my strangeness again,” aiming for personal excellence and authenticity.

12. Tenderness, Vulnerability, and Representation in a Turbulent Moment

• Limón ties her identity and visibility (as a Mexican American woman) to the importance of representation for young people and the nation.
  • Advocates for “tenderness and vulnerability... when everything feels violent and horrific, to point out the beautiful thing” (34:23).
  • Strives to hold onto “softness” as both a radical act and a personal salvation.

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Memorable Quotes

• “It’s about wonder, about not being scared of being amazed...” (Ada Limón, 03:32)
• “The art of losing isn’t hard to master... Even losing you...” (Ada Limón, discussing Elizabeth Bishop, 23:16)
• “Doubt is so beautiful because I distrust certainty sometimes.” (Ada Limón, 31:03)
• “Tenderness and vulnerability... is what we need right now.” (Ada Limón, 34:23)
• “I’m returning to myself... getting weirder. Embracing my strangeness again.” (Ada Limón, 37:04)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:19 – Introduction of Ada Limón
• 01:55 – Limón reads "Startlement"
• 03:32 – On choosing the title “Startlement”
• 04:34 – Writing “Startlement” for the National Climate Assessment
• 06:05 – Reflecting on poems written in her 20s through 40s
• 07:48 – Reads early poem "Centerfold"
• 10:53 – National Parks project & NASA collaboration
• 12:40 – Reads “A New National Anthem”
• 16:43 – On the poet’s role as a critic of nation and tradition
• 19:05 – Experiences of sharing poetry in national parks
• 22:22 – Early encounter with Elizabeth Bishop’s poetry
• 25:17 – Deciding to become a poet with her best friend
• 27:06 – On balancing poetry with paid work
• 31:03 – Wrestling with doubt and purpose as a poet
• 34:23 – Tenderness, vulnerability, and public voice in difficult times
• 37:04 – Returning to authenticity after serving as Poet Laureate

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Closing Thoughts

This in-depth interview brings listeners inside Ada Limón’s creative process, her philosophy of poetry as both public act and private reckoning, and her commitment to beauty and vulnerability in times of uncertainty. The episode is filled with Limón’s characteristic warmth, humility, and insight—offering not only a portrait of a writer at the height of her powers, but also hope and companionship for anyone grappling with the challenges of being human right now.

Transcript

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[Tonya Mosley]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Moseley. When Ada Limone became the 24th poet laureate of the United States in 2022, she imagined her role would be to bring poetry to the people. What she found instead was that poetry was already everywhere, in waiting rooms, on subway cars and secret journals. People just didn't call themselves poets. It's that kind of intimacy, poetry as a quiet, essential part of daily life, that defines Limone's own work. Her new collection, New and Selected poems, spans nearly 20 years of writing, bringing together poems from six earlier books alongside new works that grapple with living in this moment, the climate crisis, the erosion of privacy and the exhaustion of being constantly on display. Her previous collections include the Carrying, which won the National Book Critics Circle Award, and Bright Dead Things, a finalist for the National Book Award. She's also a recipient of a MacArthur Fellowship and was named one of Time magazine's Women of the Year and recently completed a three year tenure as poet laureate. Ada Limone, welcome to FRESH air.

[Ada Limón]

Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure.

[Tonya Mosley]

Ada, you know that word startlement, the name of your book that's also a poem in the book. It's not a word we use anymore. It feels almost Victorian. But it's the title of your new collection and I'd love for you to read actually the first poem and on the other side we can talk about it. Will you read it for us?

[Ada Limón]

Yeah, absolutely. Startlement. It is a forgotten pleasure, the pleasure of the unexpected blue bellied lizard skittering off his sunspot rock, the flicker of an unknown bird by the bus stop. To think perhaps we are not distinguishable and therefore no loneliness can exist here. Species to species in the same blue air, smoke, wing flutter, buzzing, a car horn coming. So many unknown languages. To think we have only honored this strange human tongue. If you sit by the riverside, you see a culmination of all things upstream. We know now we were never at the circle center. Instead, all around us something is living or trying to live. The world says what we are becoming, we are becoming together. The world says one type of dream has ended and another has just begun. The world says once we were separate and now we must move in unison.

[Tonya Mosley]

That's Ada Limon reading Startlement. Thank you so much for reading that. Tell me, how did that word startlement become what really is this poem, but also a container for 20 years of your poetry?

[Ada Limón]

Thank you. Yeah, startlement, for me, I mean, it's a Shakespearean word. And then when I was thinking of a title for the whole collection, which was really hard to come up with, a title or how do you title, you know, a life of work, a whole collection that spans your life, And I kept thinking maybe a startlement was the collective noun for poems. A startlement of poems, like a murder of crows, like a murmuration of starlings. So, yeah, it became the container. But I think really at its core, it's about wonder, about not being scared of being amazed, but also the way something can shove you off its center for a moment and being available to that moment.

[Tonya Mosley]

You wrote this poem, startlement, for a government report on climate change initially, is that right? The fifth National Climate Assessment.

[Ada Limón]

That's correct. I was asked to write this poem for the front matter of the fifth annual National Climate Assessment, which is a congressionally mandated report. And it was difficult to write the poem, but I will admit that I met with a bunch of the scientists and the journalists and all the people that spend all this time making this report, and one of the women followed me out and she was near tears, and she said, I know that you have to write this poem for the front matter, but do me a favor, don't make it nostalgic. And it really stuck with me about how there is no going back, that even if we can practice river restoration and remove dams, and even if we are lucky enough to see some return of salmon or some flourishing in the oceans, it's not going to be a return to what we had. Whatever happens next is the way forward. It's what happens next. And that's where this poem, where the seed of the poem was planted.

[Tonya Mosley]

This collection includes. Am I right that this includes poetry that you also wrote when you were in your early 20s, all the way through to you now in your 40s?

[Ada Limón]

Yes, yes, that's very true. Yeah.

[Tonya Mosley]

Yeah. When you look back, do you see yourself aging in your poems? How did that. How was that process of you going through over 20 years worth of work?

[Ada Limón]

Yeah, it was pretty bizarre and surreal to go and look at everything you've made from your. You know, I think the earliest poem, I believe I was maybe 22, 23. I think that's probably the earliest poem in the book and up until now. And so I think there's a level in which you stare at the work you've made and start to think about, oh, how it reflects not just your impulses as an artist, but who you are as a human being and the people you've lost. You know, I think about the poems that are about grief. I lost my stepmother when I was in my mid-30s. And I think about those poems that were in the original collection, Bright Dead Things, and how she's become a ghost in these poems. And I think about how I really tried to see not only the poems, but the person that wrote the poems with as much generosity as possible. And that's how I made the collection, which was. This was an offering to myself back then, too.

[Tonya Mosley]

What is that earliest poem? Which poem is that that you wrote at 22, 23?

[Ada Limón]

I want to say the youngest. Oh, you know what? I think it's Centerfold.

[Tonya Mosley]

Can I have you read Centerfold?

[Ada Limón]

Absolutely. This is a poem I wrote while I was in graduate school at New York University. And I was still. Remember, I was studying with Sharon Olds. I was in her workshop. And I think I was just 22, maybe 23. Centerfold crouched in the corner of the barn. We sat with the cedar chest splayed and the magazines laid out in perfect piles. I was the first to reach the centerfold. And together we stared. These women, these giantesses, folded over couches on bear rugs or steel bars, their bodies so slick they could slip through the pages and then through your fingers. One in particular was my favorite. With her left leg perched on a ballet bar and her hair piled around her shoulders, I thought she must be famous. I thought how lovely it would be to be her, to be naked all the time and dancing.

[Tonya Mosley]

Thank you so much for reading that. That's Centerfold by my guest, Ada Limone. She wrote when she was just grad school. What was the impetus for that poem?

[Ada Limón]

You know, I was thinking about the naive child and how there's so much tenderness in often a young person's viewpoint. And for me, I was this young girl discovering, you know, these. This pile of old magazines, you know, Playboys or whatever they were. And. And instead of being horrified or scared by them, I thought, oh, this is amazing. You could just be a naked woman dancing and be so free. And there was a real moment where I thought this was great. And, of course, as you age, you begin to understand the terror of that, and you also begin to understand the danger that surrounds women and the figure of women. And I feel like that this poem sort of wants to hold both of those things at the same time, which is that wonder and awe that the child has. And then also how clearly the next part of this poem, right. The next thing that happens is the discovery of the danger of what it is to be in a female body moving through our world.

[Tonya Mosley]

The Library of Congress asked you to serve a second two year term, which had never been done before, because the Poet Laureate position is typically a one year term. And so I was just wondering, when they asked you to extend for that second term, what was the unfinished work that both of you felt you needed to complete?

[Ada Limón]

There were two things that were really key to making that decision to sign on for this second two year term, which was one, the project that I was creating, my signature project called you are Here, was with the national parks. And it was quite large. And we wanted time to do it and to do it right. And so we were able to not just do the project, but then unveil those poetry picnic tables in seven different parks around the country. And that was really meaningful. The other thing was that I have a poem that's engraved on the spacecraft, the Europa Clipper, and that went to space. It launched on October 14, 2024. And so it felt also as I should be serving in that role while that spacecraft launched. I think that was another part of that decision because it felt like it might be a disservice to the next Poet Laureate to have them come in in September and then for there to be this sort of big NASA project that was continuing with me and didn't. We didn't want to rush it in any way.

[Tonya Mosley]

One of the poems that you read at your inauguration was the new national anthem, which I'm going to have you read. But I want a little bit of backstory about it because I also have heard that you were afraid that this actual poem would be the reason why you would not become Poet Laureate. And it ended up being the thing that you read, the piece of work that you read and your inauguration.

[Ada Limón]

Yeah, I wrote that poem in 2016, and I wrote it in a. In a fury. And it just came out in one sitting, which is very rare. And this is a poem that I wrote and then immediately sent it to a friend who worked at a news site called buzzfeed. And he immediately published it. And I thought, oh, no, I think this will. I laughed with my husband. I was like, now I'll never become Poet Laureate. And I was thinking, of course, joking, that would never happen anyway. But then the odd thing was that it was Dr. Carla Hayden's. It was one of her favorite poems.

[Tonya Mosley]

And Just to remind people who Hayden is, she was the head of Library of Congress.

[Ada Limón]

Yeah, Dr. Carla Hayden, who is the Librarian, or was the Librarian of Congress while I was serving. And she encouraged me to read the poem a few times. And then I read it at my inaugural reading at the library.

[Tonya Mosley]

Can I have you read it?

[Ada Limón]

A new national anthem. The truth is, I've never cared for the national anthem. If you think about it, it's not a good song. It's too high for most of us, with the rocket red glare. And then there are the bombs. Always, always there is war and bombs. Once I sang it at homecoming and threw even the tenacious high school band off key. But the song didn't mean anything, just a call to the field, something to get through before the pummeling of youth. And what of the stanzas we never sing? The third that mentions no refuge could save the hireling and the slave. Perhaps the truth is, every song of this country has an unsung third stanza, something brutal snaking underneath us as we absentmindedly sing the high notes with a beer sloshing in the stands, hoping our team wins. Don't get me wrong, I do like the flag, how it undulates in the wind, like water, elemental and best when it's humbled, brought to its knees, clung to by someone who has lost everything. When it's not a weapon, when it flickers, when it folds up so perfectly you can keep it until it's needed, until you can love it again. Into the song in your mouth feels like sustenance, a song where the notes are sung by even the ageless woods, the short grass plains, the Red River Gorge, the fistful of land left unpoisoned. That song, that's our birthright, that sung in silence when it's too hard to go on. That sounds like someone's rough fingers weaving into another's. That sounds like a match being lit in an endless cave. The song that says, my bones are your bones and your bones are my bones, and isn't that enough?

[Tonya Mosley]

You highlight this poem as kind of being central to your philosophy as poet laureate. And I was just wondering how you see that role of critique, especially for a beloved national symbol. Obviously, you felt some fear around it because you joked, you know, you wouldn't become poet laureate, but how do you see your role of critique in that role? As part of what a poet laureate should offer?

[Ada Limón]

Yeah, I think that in the role, you know, first and foremost, you serve the Library of Congress, and the Library is the largest library in the world. And so you're thinking about knowledge collections, not just the books that were saved, but also the items that are saved. But you're also thinking about the history of the country. So I think that the poet's job, in many ways, is to. Or at least the poet. Poet laureate's job is to be aware of where we are in context. And I think that's important because for the most part, we are just reactive to the now. Right. Especially given social media and how everything is about breaking news as well, you know, and it feels like we get trapped into a moment of always reacting, and so we get overwhelmed. At least for me, I shouldn't say we, but I know that I get overwhelmed. I feel like, oh, I can only live in outrage, right? Or I can only live in fear or anxiety. And maybe it's too much, or maybe I'm not allowed beauty. Maybe I'm not allowed joy. How can I be joyful when so many people are suffering? You know, how can I kiss and be hugged and celebrate love while so many people are suffering? And I think that poetry allows us to hold all of those realities and make space for the full spectrum of not just human emotion, but the full spectrum of truths.

[Tonya Mosley]

Your signature project when you were a poet laureate was this poetry installation in national parks. It was called you are Here. Even in your description of poetry, for me, it gives me that same sensation of how I feel when I'm out in the world and in nature. And so I just wonder, what did you learn from watching people encounter poems in these outdoor spaces versus reading them on a page?

[Ada Limón]

Oh, that's a great question. I think there were so many people that I ran across when we were doing that unveiling of those legacy poems on these picnic tables inside national parks where people would come. And at first they're looking around, at first they're figuring out where they are. And then when they had a moment to actually spend time reading the poem that was on the table, they got so quiet, and it was so beautiful.

[Ken Tucker]

You.

[Ada Limón]

You know, they would just get so quiet, and they would reflect on the language and the song that the poet was making while they were staring at this place. And I think the thing that I was hoping it would do, and I hope I still hope it is doing, is allowing them not just to be quiet in those beautiful spaces, but also think of ways that they might offer something back. But I think sometimes if we can find language to sort of sing back to the places we love, we can feel deeper, a deeper sense of connection, and it can actually feel like we are working together, that there is something like reciprocity there.

[Tonya Mosley]

Our guest today is ada Limone, the 24th US poet laureate and author of the new poetry collection Startlement. We'll be right back after a short, short break. I'm Tonya Moseley, and this is FRESH air.

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[Tonya Mosley]

You've told this story about the way you found your way to poetry, Elizabeth Bishop High School. You're reading her poetry. You fell in love. What was it about her work in particular that you still remember about that falling in love moment?

[Ada Limón]

Oh, yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up. The Elizabeth Bishop poem. It's called One Art. And I remember exactly where I was. I was near the front of the classroom at Sonoma Valley High School. Go Dragons. And I remember we we had this poem on a test and we were reading it out loud and it just made sense to me. I felt like it wasn't a puzzle at all. And I think before then I thought maybe poems were like puzzles. And this wasn't a puzzle at all. This felt like music. Of course, I was, I was 15, so I was madly in love and, you know, tender to everything that was crush related. And so I saw this poem. I was like, oh, this is a, a love poem. And then it had this form. It's A arguably one of the most famous villanelles. And as I was reading it, I had no idea that this was a form that existed, but I knew that she was making a pattern. And I could see the pattern, and I could see how it wasn't unlike a song that has a chorus or a bridge and how you can see those repeated things. And I remember that phrasing. The art of losing isn't hard to master. So many things seem filled with their intent to be lost, that their loss is no disaster. And I just thought, oh, wow. She's beginning with the small items, you know, and she says, I lost my mother's watch. And look, you know, so she's going on at these. Oh, you can. And then practice losing farther, losing faster places and names and where it was you meant to travel. And it's like, oh, she's just showing us the it. That losing is part of life and that there's almost something easy to it. And then at the very end, you get the even losing you. And then I thought, oh, the you in poetry is everything. And I remember being 15, going, this is. This is masterful. This is incredible.

[Tonya Mosley]

And I can imagine that so many people that you've encountered as you talked about poetry, for them is. It's pretty academic, where they think about it as it relates to school, those moments in high school or in other grades where you finally come to a piece of poetry that sticks with you. But there's a difference there between loving it intensely like you loved it and so many people do, and then the decision to actually become a poet. When did you decide you wanted to be a poet?

[Ada Limón]

I'll tell you a story. But I was with my best friend. She's still my best friend, Trish. She's a great playwright. And we were sitting around her kitchen table in Seattle. We met at the University of Washington sketching a sundial. And I said to her, I think I want to be a poet. And we were splitting a tomato because neither of us had any money, and she never had any utensils in the house. And I still remember she had this.

[Tonya Mosley]

Sounds so Pacific Northwest. I just have to say. Continue.

[Ada Limón]

It is sundial.

[Tonya Mosley]

Eating a tomato.

[Ada Limón]

Yeah, go ahead. And she were eating a tomato, and we're spinning, splitting a tomato. And I still remember she was. She had a fork and a pizza cutter that was like all the. All the utensils she had in the world. And we were splitting this tomato and salting it. And I said, I think I want to be a poet. And she said, oh, good. Because I think I want to be a playwright. And then I was thinking, oh, we just memorialized this tomato that we were splitting around her kitchen table because we had nothing else to eat. And I thought, oh, yeah, I think we're just going to have to get used to just splitting a tomato from here on out because we're choosing jobs or careers or lives, creative lives, because there's not jobs or careers. That may mean that we have to be pretty frugal.

[Tonya Mosley]

So you make this declaration, but you do take on other types of jobs. Like you don't go into becoming a full time poet. You had a whole other career in marketing before you made this decision to take the leap.

[Ada Limón]

Oh, yes. I mean, I've said this before, but I do think it's. If you choose art as your passion, as the thing you want to pursue, people will say, do what you love and the money will follow. And I think in reality, if you choose the creative life, you often have to do what you love and then also get a real job and that. So I was trying to figure out how to make a living, you know, and I really needed to make sure that I could make rent and I could pay off my student loans from graduate school. And I think that I was very lucky to find magazines and work for marketing and really put language to use in a different way.

[Tonya Mosley]

I was wondering about this because writing for marketing, I mean, slogans, selling things, because sometimes like promos come across our desks where we have to give ideas or thoughts or even write them, and they really require compression and clarity. And so I'm also just wondering how that maybe helped or kind of enhanced your own poetry, if at all.

[Ada Limón]

Yeah, you know, I don't think that they. I don't think that writing copy ever necessarily helped my poetry, but I do think that understanding language and working with language all day long was really good for my brain because it also allowed me to understand the absurdity of language. You know, if you really want to start to get surreal about where language works and where it fails, you know, read a sales report, you know, or try to. Or be in a room where people are coming up with ad campaigns. And the more and more earnest that you get, the more and more you think, you know, this matters. Like there's. There's nothing else that matters, like this cell phone, you know, and the absurdity of that, the absurdity of selling things, this absurdity of marketing things was kind of great to witness firsthand and to play around with it. I think one of the things that was really healthy for me was that I was never attached to my campaigns. I like to play with them. I was happy to do headlines and it was fun for me. It was a game.

[Tonya Mosley]

But you weren't emotionally invested.

[Ada Limón]

I was never emotionally invested because I was going home and I was writing poems and that's where I was emotionally invested. And so in many ways, you know, if someone said, oh, this one's not going to work, I'd say, oh, great, here are five more options, you know, and so it was a, it was a good job for me and I was really lucky to work with a lot of good people. And I think it not only helped me, you know, make a living, which I needed desperately in New York City, but it also helped me develop some perspective about what it was to be an artist and also have to exist in a world where you needed to pay rent and you needed to save money. And it was great if you could get health insurance, all of these things. So I've always been a firm believer that artists need to talk about the way we make livings and the way that we can move in the world. Because I wasn't less of an artist because I had a full time job. I think I was, you know, just as much of an artist as I am today.

[Tonya Mosley]

Was there ever a moment where you gave up on poetry or came close?

[Ada Limón]

Yeah, I think that, honestly, I think it happens a lot. I'd like to say it doesn't happen a lot, but oftentimes I think, what can I be doing if, okay, this is one life, right? I have one life that I get to live and I'm so grateful that I get to live it. And I don't know how many years that I will have left, but I think, what do I want to dedicate myself to? And sometimes it's difficult to not think, oh, I need to immediately go into a full time activist mode or a full time mode where I am helping animals or helping to preserve nature, or working solely for the climate crisis and helping to, to serve, to really serve in a physical way. And then there are times where I think that poetry is my way of serving. And I think that I go back and forth. And I also think that there are times where I think poetry saves me all the time. It saves me. And then I think, can it save others? And I don't, I don't know. Yeah, I think that I. But I think that doubt is so beautiful because I distrust certainty sometimes. Like this idea that, oh, you know, poetry matters more than anything. It's like. It does. It does, but so does, you know, being able to eat, being able to be safe. You know, those things really matter, and they all matter together.

[Tonya Mosley]

Our guest today is ada Limone, the 24th US poet laureate and author of the new poetry collection Startlement. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH air.

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[Ada Limón]

Of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story, but right now you probably need more on. Up first from NPR, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under 15 minutes, because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big, crazy world of ours on any given morning. Listen now to the upverse podcast from npr.

[Tonya Mosley]

Ada, you spoke out when Carla Hayden from the Library of Congress was fired by the Trump administration. And so you've been vocal on things that you really care about. How do you see your role in this moment in American history and what poetry can bring to it?

[Ada Limón]

Yeah, you know, I think that one of the things that I really hope I can do is really be a true artist in all that sense, to give myself the freedom to keep making things and to be as expansive as I possibly can. And I think that as a woman, as someone with, you know, Mexican heritage, as, you know, I think that there's a way, the way in which we can make sure that young people can see that. I think about that a lot. I think about how important it is to have representation. And at the same time, I also really feel like what we need right now is tenderness and vulnerability, because everything that is being asked of us is to be, oh, we are just reacting with these suits of armor that I know we need, I know we need, right? This rise to action, this feeling like we are up against everything, and that feels so difficult. And I feel that with everyone else. And yet at the same time, I feel like we can't lose our softness, we can't lose our tenderness. And if I can fight in some way to hold onto that, to show that, to show the softness, to show the importance of love, as silly as that may sound, when everything feels violent and horrific, to point out the beautiful thing when everything feels, you know, like there's no hope. I guess I want to keep doing that, and I want to make sure I do it not just for others, but for my own soul, for my own self.

[Tonya Mosley]

I think you said that after your appointment, after April, you returned home and it felt like you were returning to yourself as a poet, which kind of implies the role as poet laureate maybe had taken you away from that self. What part of Ada the poet did you have to let go of to be Ada the laureate?

[Ada Limón]

You know, the poet laureate role is symbolic. It is. I don't know if people are interested in the tarot, but it's like a major arcana card. You become a symbol, you become a part of something. And what you end up talking about usually is the power of poetry, the power of language. And you talk about poetry as an art form as a whole, right? Where as an artist, we talk about what we make. We talk about, oh, this is the weird poems I make, and this is my strangeness and does it matter, et cetera, et cetera. And then I think then in that role, you're thinking about, okay, I want to represent not just poetry, but I want to represent the library. And then they say, oh, you know, you're the poet laureate of the United States. So then you think, oh, no, do I represent the United States? That's a lot. Lot, right? So then it becomes like this idea of, oh, I'm just trying to represent these other things. And in some ways to do that, well, you kind of have to let go of some of yourself. You need to become a little stronger. You know, you have to. You have to have a little bit of a hard shell. And you need to be someone who can be very articulate about what it is that matters and the importance of langu. And I think as an artist, those things unravel a bit. We can say, wait, does poetry matter? And then you make your poems and you think, oh, yeah, they do. They do matter for me, you know, So I think that I'm returning to myself in some ways. I'm getting weirder. I'm embracing my strangeness again. And I think that in the role as the laureate, there's a part of you that's, you know, you're just trying. I am someone who is always. I'm really always trying to do my best. And in that role, I was really. I will be very honest with you, I was just trying to do my very best. And I think now I can work towards a type of excellence in my own work, which is that strangeness and that softness and the slipperiness of reality that makes me who I am.

[Tonya Mosley]

Ada Limone, it was such a pleasure to talk with you and thank you so much for this collection, 20 years of your work.

[Ada Limón]

Thank you. The pleasure was mine.

[Tonya Mosley]

Ada Limone is the nation's 24th poet laureate. Her new collection is called Startlement. Coming up, rock critic Ken Tucker reviews the re release of the album Buckingham Nicks. This is FRESH air.

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[Tonya Mosley]

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[Ada Limón]

AI has gotten that good.

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[Ada Limón]

Here at Life Kit, we take advice seriously. We bring you evidence based recommendations. And to do that, we with researchers and experts on all sorts of topics because we have the same questions you do, like what's really in my shampoo? Or should I let my kid quit soccer? Or what should I do with my savings in uncertain economic times? You can listen to NPR's Life Kit in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Taylor Swift is once again taking over the Internet. Her new album touches on her relationship with fiance Travis Kelce, as well as.

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[Ada Limón]

We're delving into the life of a showgirl and unpacking all the joyful bangers. Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tonya Mosley]

In the early 1970s, Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham were struggling musicians. In 73, they released their first album called Buckingham Nicks. It was a commercial flop, but it was heard by Mick Fleetwood who was so impressed he offered the duo membership in Fleetwood Mac. The result turned that ban into one of the best selling acts of all time. For the first time, the long out of print, Buckingham Nicks has been digitally remastered and re released. Rock critic Ken Tucker has a review of this legendary 52 year old album.

[Ken Tucker]

She was there kinda lady D come curling round you like fingers but she'll leave you crying. In.

The only album Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham ever made as a duo, Buckingham Nicks is a remarkably fully formed preview of the sound that turned Fleetwood Mac into a superstar act in the late 70s and forever after. Credit Lindsey Buckingham in 1973 for playing guitar with a unique combination of Intricacy and force. And credit Stevie Nicks for vocally going her own way. Way before there was a hit called Go youo Own Way.

I come running down the hill with your F. You're the winner.

In 1973. If you listened to that song, Long Distance Winner, it would probably be the first time you'd ever heard Stevie Nicks. You'd think, who's that? How does a voice with such a delicate tremble also manage to be so strong? Working in Los Angeles with producer Keith Olsen, Buckingham and Nicks were making music that fit the time and place they were living in. You can hear it in the context of LA music, in the manner of the Eagles, Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, Jackson Browne. But their sound also stood apart as something at once more dreamy and more intense. From the start, there was a romantic and artistic tension between Buckingham and Nicks that gave the pretty melodies an undercurrent of unhappiness.

If we could start again well, who knows? Have we really changed? Some say we have Reflecting our past. Who can save, who can save? Races are run Some people win Some people always have to lose oh yeah.

You can understand Lindsay and Stevie's dismay when Buckingham Nicks was a commercial family. How could a song such as Don't Let Me Down Again, which sounds in retrospect like prime Fleetwood Mac, how could this not have been a hit? Buckingham nicks was a 1973 release that bombed in the year defined by Elton John's Goodbye Yellow Brick Road and Pink Floyd's Dark side of the Movie Moon. In 1974, Nix began waitressing at a Beverly Hills restaurant when she and Buckingham got a call from Mick Fleetwood. Keith Olsen had played the album for him and he loved it, especially the seven minutes plus mini symphony that closes the album called Frozen Love.

Sam.

Buckingham and Nicks join Fleetwood Mac and along with the staggeringly beautiful voice and songwriter of Christine McVie, turned a shaggy British folk blues band into a pop music melodrama about love and betrayal. And this album can now be heard as Stevie and Lindsay's calling card. As accomplished, anguished and ambitious an audition as anyone has made.

[Tonya Mosley]

Ken Tucker reviewed the re release of the album Buckingham Nicks tomorrow on fresh air. Escaping poverty, then going back home, journalist Beth Macy went back to the Ohio factory town where she grew up to find that jobs have left, families are struggling, and old friends now embrace conspiracy theories. Macy's new book is Paper Girl, a memoir of home and family in a fractured America. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram at the NPR Fresh Air.

[Ken Tucker]

I just need somebody that I lean on Nobody wants to keep your when you're in love with the game but you know that I can't let go and there ain't nothing left to show Got the feeling I can't say no Without a leg to stand on there's so many fine people.

[Tonya Mosley]

Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Sharp, Annmarie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzle, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CB Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Teresa Madden directed today's show with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Mosley.

[Ada Limón]

America's global role is shifting fast. On sources and methods we explain how and why. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. I've talked to spies, I've reported from war zones, I've interviewed ambassadors, generals, presidents. Want to understand what is happening around the world and how it affects us? Join me and my fellow reporters as we break it down for you. Listen to sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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