Terry Gross (5:16)

Literally, yeah.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (5:17)

Larry Graham is. Well, you know, Drake's name is Aubrey Graham. Drake's father is Larry Graham's brother. Anytime I show this movie to someone under the age of 30, they're like, wait, is that Drake's father? I'm like, no, that's his uncle, because they look alike. But yeah, he revolutionized a way to play bass. And so, I mean, pretty much he just invented the idea of like ear candy. Like a whole bunch of micro ideas inside of one three minute song. And that's the genius of Sly Stone.

Terry Gross (5:48)

All right, thank you for that. Let's hear Dance to the Music.

Questlove (5:52)

Say get up and dance to the.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (5:55)

Music.

Questlove (5:59)

Get up and dance to the music Dance to the music Dance to the music Dance to the music.

Shopify Representative (6:26)

Dance.

Questlove (6:27)

To the music all we need is a drama for people who only need a beat yeah, I'm Gonna add a little gut top and make it easy to move your feet. I'm gonna add some bottom so that.

Terry Gross (7:03)

The dancer just won't hide.

Questlove (7:14)

You might like to hear my organ. I said, right now, Right now, Cynthia. If I could have hear the horns. Lord. Cynthia on the throne. Yeah. Listen to me. The dear Jerry call. A message that says all the squares. Yeah.

Terry Gross (7:52)

So that was Sly and The Family Stones 1968 hit, Dance to the Music. And the drumming is so infectious, it's hard not to move when you hear that. And it's not fancy.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (8:09)

So what people don't know is that Sly basically considered Dance to the Music like his sellout song. Sly had released this really intelligent debut album called A Whole New Thing, which is probably my favorite album of this entire canon. But it was way too wordy, way too smart, way too nerdy, just so ahead of its time that only a certain few latched onto it. And the rejection of that album kind of depressed Sly and his label said, look, you know, like, you're doing way too much. You know you're doing way too much. You gotta simplify it. People aren't as smart as you are. Like, instead of you being the smartest guy in the room, be a relatable guy in the room. Like, people just want to dance to the music. And kind of in a very bitter, scoffy way, like, he's like, all right, well, people want to dance to the music, fine. And so he. He did a very sarcastic thing, and so he's like, all right, well, people want to dance to the music, fine. I'm going to make a song, and I'm going to teach them how to dance to my music. And essentially dance. The music is an instructional introduction on who we are. Hey, I play the bass.

Capella University Representative (9:26)

Do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (9:28)

I play the drums, I play the keyboards. And literally, that's the song. There's no. There's no lyrics to the song. It's just a sing along. But what Sly doesn't realize is that in his very sarcastic, bitter, middle finger type of way, he includes everybody, and people grasp to it. And so Dancing the Music is one of those accidental number one songs that he didn't intend on catching on. It was more of, like, just a bitter. Here, you guys want, you know, regular food instead of this, you know, meal I cooked up for you? Fine, take your sandwich and get out of here. And people gravitated towards it, so.

Terry Gross (10:11)

But there's a lot going on in that song, including, like, the kind of scatting part.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (10:17)

Yeah, so what he includes is, you know, a very, you know, the drum beat that is played there is kind of a precursor to what we will call four on the floor. And 10 years later, four on the floor will just be, you know, Whereas in the 60s, four on the floor means that the snare, the kick and the hi hat are all doing. You know, it's teaching your body how to dance to it. Ten years later, they'll take the snare and the hi hat away and it'll just be the kick, boom, boom, boom, boom. And that will be the disco rhythm, you know, what we call boots and cats. Cats, Cats. Boots and cats. So Sly will basically kind of give you the prototype of what will be the disco pulse in the late 60s. But, you know, he's writing the blueprint of what modern dance music will be in 10 years.

Terry Gross (11:15)

But then he also does a lot of things that become beats for hip hop artists later.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (11:20)

Yes. So again, like, Sly believes in micro examples. Like, you know, another artist will make one hook, one melody, one lyric, you know, like just one thing. Whereas Sly will probably try to cram in seven ideas at the same time. Like, Sly puts a lot of attention to harmony, which is a church thing. So that makes people feel comfortable, like, oh, they went to church. Cause they sing harmonious. But then Sly knows the importance of unison. Unison singing is where everyone sings in the same register. So, like, you know, think of the idea of, like, when Billy Joel's Piano man comes on, you know, that's the type of song that you hear in a bar. And, you know, everyone sings together as they hold their mug of beer and, you know, sing along. So that's a very inclusive type of thing. So when everyone's singing in the same key, without harmony, it's not intimidating like the worst singer and the best singer can unify. So he knew the power of unison singing, which is included, and harmony singing, which is a spectacle and type of dance rhythms and innovative bass sounds like just every new idea that was unexplored in 1967, 68 and 69. Sly was the pioneer and the first person to do those things.

Terry Gross (12:47)

So I want to play another Sly track and talk about it with you because I found the film so interesting in really pointing to specifically what makes Sly's music so interesting and catchy and why so many people kind of, as you put it, use his vocabulary. So I want to play everyday people because this has significance in a lot of ways. I mean, Sly's band is made up of black and white musicians, male and female. Musicians and Everyday People speaks to inclusivity. So can you talk about that a little bit in terms of the types of music that are drawn on in Sly's music and the kind of inclusivity that he represented within the band and in some of his lyrics.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (13:38)

Sly's role, Vernon Reed of Living Color kind of painted that. You know, this marks the first time that a black singer is kind of stepping out of the roles that we were traditionally playing. You know, before Sly, it was like you were strictly singing about love songs, in particular about relationships. You really weren't giving any commentary about everyday life or things that are relatable in the present to the, the artist, you know, to the audience that you're serving. It's almost like music before Sly was almost kind of a, a fantasy, if you will, like a, a means to escape your present situation. And Sly kind of uses his music as a means to sell humanity. And Everyday People's a. A great example where he's essentially saying that, hey, like I breathe air like you do, I bleed like you do. There's some things that we have in common, there's some things that we don't have in common, but we're all the same person. And sometimes, especially, you know, during that period, during the civil rights period, especially with that time in which Martin Luther King has died and Malcolm X has died, Medgar Evers has died and the Kennedys died and kind of the dream of the civil rights period died. That kind of messaging at the time seemed very necessary for, you know, there was questions in the air like, what do we do now? So Slide kind of accidentally inserts himself in the leadership position kind of in the name of just trying to find relatable content to his lyrics. Because, you know, a lot of his music is very self confessional and very relatable, kind of in a way that, you know, Dylan was also affecting music with his, you know, with his songs at the time. And I guess Sly wound up being the unofficial spokesperson for black people.

Terry Gross (16:03)

Well, let's hear Everyday People and this is from 1969.

Questlove (16:15)

Sometimes I'm right and I could be wrong My own beliefs are in my song. The picture the nigger, the drama ending makes no difference what group I'm in I am everyday people we got to live together I am no better, neither are you we are the same whatever we do. You love me, you hate me, you know me and then you can figure out the bag I in I am every dream you There is a long we got to live together There is a yellow on the phone, except the black.

Terry Gross (18:00)

So that was Everyday People, which as you pointed out, has a kind of nursery rhyme part to it.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (18:05)

Yeah.

Terry Gross (18:09)

Yeah. And that has, like I said, the message of inclusivity and togetherness. But as someone in your documentary points out, that alienated a lot of black listeners in the sense that, you know, police were beating up black people, which of course, you could say today as well. But it was a very. It was. And also like black power was becoming a thing.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (18:35)

It was risky. Yeah, it was risky because again, this song is released right on the edge of the razor. Like there's always a time in American history and, you know, today is no different. There's always a time in American history where we're just right on the edge, right on the precipice of like, you know, a kind of explosive end result, you know, and for someone to sort of come in waving a proverbial, like, white flag, that's a risky thing because, you know, one we do see the evidence of the abuse that's given. But it's also like, who's gonna be the first person to kind of come to half court, you know, to the 50 yard line, who's gonna cross the aisle and, you know, start a Kumbaya moment and sort of dismantles whatever conflicts that we have? And that's, that's the role that Sly's music played. Whereas, you know, the messaging of his music was always encouraging, always, you know, a cheerleader of justice and a cheerleader of positivity. And unfortunately, even though the music spoke of that optimism inside, he was sort of falling apart at the seams because there's a pressure of or a burden, which is why we call it the burden of Black Genius. There's a burden when one puts themselves in that position where they often have to come up with the solutions or the answers to why society is the way it is.

Terry Gross (20:30)

We're listening to the interview I recorded earlier this year with Amir Questlove Thompson about his documentary Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius. It's streaming on Hulu. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH air.

Questlove (20:46)

I wonder, I wonder. I wanna take you higher. I wanna take you higher.

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Terry Gross (22:55)

Same album as Everyday People, his message about inclusivity, he has the song Stand. That's, that's a message to take a stand, stand up for your rights, you know, demand your rights. And that resonated a lot within the black community.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (23:11)

Stand proud. Yes.

Terry Gross (23:12)

Yeah. So talk a little bit about that song and why you think that song is important musically and in terms of the message of the lyrics.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (23:19)

So basically, Sly makes the song stand and he completes the song and he has a kind of a test pressing demo made of it. And you know, he takes this record demo to Whiskey a Go Go in Hollywood on Sunset Boulevard, which was, you know, the nightclub of the moment. And he gives the DJ the 45 to play and the DJ puts it on. You know, it's like a proto disco in 1969 where teenagers are dancing in the club and you know, the teenagers are dancing and the song ends. And Sly was like, really disappointed. He's like, man, like, that song didn't hit the way I wanted it to. And at the time the girl that he was with was like, well, you know, you didn't put a get down part in. And he's like, well, what do you mean? He's like, you gotta have a part in the song that just like wakes people up and makes them want to like really get down. And he's like, oh, get down part. And so he leaves the club that night and around one in the morning he calls the band together and says, hey, we need to add something to the song that really just wakes it up out of nowhere. So kind of in the last minute and fifteen seconds of the song, this tension building, kind of structure of the lyrics comes to this feverish, like, climatic end where the song totally changes from what it was to something totally, completely different. And he creates a get down part, what we will now know as a breakbeat. You know, the part of the song that sparks magic, that makes people really want to dance and get down to it. And I kind of think that was Sly's nod to the black community, you know? Cause by that point, Sly was such a pop hit, but he really didn't have much numbers on the board for his black audience. Like, when he first came out the box, his white audience immediately latched onto him. And sometimes, I know with certain black artists, even though it's unspoken, one of the burdens of black genius is sometimes, like, the burden of being white people's favorite black person, you know, that's often, like, kind of a mark of shame, like, ah, man, I gotta get right with my people first before the rest of the world loves me. So I almost feel as though, in a sort of code switch way, he wanted to add a part to that song that really made black people say, oh, okay, he's still down with us, you know. So he adds this really funky part at the end that really solidifies his genius.

Terry Gross (26:07)

So let's play that transitional part so we hear some of the main song, and then we hear what it transitions to at the end.

Questlove (26:16)

Stand they will try to make you crawl and they know what you're saying makes sense at all and don't you know that you are free well, at least in your mind if you want to be Sam.

Terry Gross (27:25)

So that was Stand, which is on the same 1969 album as Everyday People. And those two songs have a kind of contrast, like I said before, inclusivity and, like, stand up for your rights. And at this time, it's a catchy song, but it's also, like a message song. And the Panthers, the Black Panthers, who are very active at this time, it's 1969, become really interested in Sly. And there's this really interesting part of the movie that talks about how the Panthers said, you need to join our group or you need to donate $100,000 to our group. To which Sly responds, give me a reason.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (28:01)

Yeah, I mean, the thing is, is that one of the burdens, especially with black success, is that you might lose yourself. And oftentimes. Look, I'll be very honest with you. Even though my experience with Summer of Soul was one of the most magical, transformative moments of my life, there were Many a time where, you know, besides the Oscar, like, there were like, 40 other awards that I won also in the circuit of film festivals. And, you know, by the 20th, I would. I would tell my manager, Zara, I'm like, man, like, can we pull out of some of these things? Like, there's a fear of winning because if you're too successful, then you're singled out. And being singled out for positive reasons or negative reasons is such a nightmare for most black people. And yes, in this case.

Terry Gross (29:06)

Why?

Amir Kweslove Thompson (29:09)

Because you're gonna be separated. Like, for a lot of black people, it's. You come up in the neighborhood, you know, your next door neighbors, you spend the night at your cousin's house. And then in the snap, suddenly, you know, I'm Macaulay Culkin's character staying at the Four Seasons Hotel, like, by myself in the lap of luxury. And that's an alienating feeling because you can't take everyone with you. You can't save everyone. You know, I grew up in a neighborhood in which I had between the two neighbors, you know, my grandmother's house and my house. Like, I had 30 plus friends. And now it's just four of us. Like, I'm one of four who's not dead or in jail. And so there's a constant, like, why me? Why was I chosen? My cousin was just as smart as I was, and that person plays drums better than me. Like, they should have been in this position. Like, there's an imposter syndrome thing that happens, and just a feeling of guilt that one feels. And, you know, the Panthers sort of approached slimes like, okay, well, you know, you're talking about these political subjects that we're about. So we want you to be our leader and fund our movement. And Sly fundamentally doesn't necessarily agree. Like, he's not that revolutionary, even though he has the ability to channel in the feeling of a revolutionary. So what winds up happening is for every time the pressure's on Sly to prove his blackness, the more success he gets, he just winds up. His only answer is to create blacker music. So, you know, the pressure of everyday people leads to stand, and then the pressure of stand leads to basically the ribbon cutting of funk. The very first funk song, which is thank you for letting me be myself again. You know, it's kind of like this brilliant deflection thing. Like his version of, hey, guys, what's that over there? You know, it may turn around and then, like, he's gone. Instead, he'll just say, here's an even funkier Song to pluth out. I'm super black, you know, and that's kind of how he gets out these situations. He has to performatively become more blacker in his music, you know, and to the point where the pinnacle of it will be his fifth album, which is there's a riot going on, which every critic salivates over that album. Like, oh, my God, it's the most amazing funk album ever. Yes, it's the very first funk album. But for me, it's probably 41 of the most painful, documented minutes in a creator's life. Like, this is clearly someone who is an unwilling participant and his journey. Like, I hear someone crying for help, but because the music is so awesome and so mind blowing, you know, we wind up fetishizing his art. And you don't see the pain of it or the fact that black pain is so beautiful. Like, the sound of Aretha Franklin's voice. Like, yeah, we'll say, like, it's so soulful. So. But no, Aretha Franklin's voice is the sound of a woman who never had a relationship with her own mother, whose mother rejected her. And when you hear her beautiful voice, that's the sound of pain. So somehow a lot of black music that we love, the sound of, Ray Charles voice, the sound of Stevie Wonder's voice, the sound. What we're really getting off on is their pain, which I'm guilty of it, but, you know, it's problematic. And it's also a pleasure, you know, And I feel guilty that sometimes I get off on someone's pain.

Terry Gross (33:25)

Yeah, but isn't that because we all have pain and we like music that understands pain and puts our pain into something beautiful?

Amir Kweslove Thompson (33:34)

We do. But see, here's the problem with that, though. One of my mentors who passed away, writer Greg Tate, he wrote a book called Everything but the Burden. And what that essentially means is that oftentimes black art, black pain is just so beautiful that oftentimes, you know, we'll take everything. We'll take the dancing, we'll take the fashion, we'll take the lingo, we'll take the singing. We'll take everything but the burden and the pain that it takes to reach that level of art. For me, one of the best examples, every time I dj, there's a song by James Brown called It's a New Day. And probably three minutes into that song, James Brown does a level of screaming that is beyond just ad libs. Like, every time I dj, this song, it's so awesomely danceable and funky, but also so painful to hear because James Brown is a person that was an orphan that grew up in a brothel. His mother gave him away, his father gave him away. So that feeling of rejection he had all of his life, all that pain is coming out in this song. And you know, that's kind of the thing. It's everything but the burden. That's kind of the empathetic way that we wanted to paint this story that, you know, Cause people often just say like, wow, he had everything and he was a genius. And then he chose drugs. And for me.

Terry Gross (35:14)

Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, yeah.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (35:16)

For me it's like what happened in his life that made him want to choose drugs? And that's the question that no one could answer. Like, especially like when I interviewed Clive Davis. And Clive has a history of, you know, there's Janis Joplin, there's Whitney Houston, there's Sly Stone, there's, you know, all these artists that have sort of famously succumbed to darker demons. And, you know, I kind of asked him like, well, I think it's more than just like, oh, he was hanging with the wrong crowd and chose cocaine instead. When I asked him what circumstances do you think that he was going through during that period he was on your label that you might not have been aware of. And this is definitely not just a story of Sly Stone. This is a story of anyone I've ever worked with. This is the story of Frank Ocean or Lauryn Hill or Dave Chappelle, Kanye west. Like anyone who's ever been mired in trouble, anyone you ever ask, like, why are they doing this? Like, everyone goes through this.

Terry Gross (36:25)

My guest is Questlove. His new documentary about Sly Stone is called Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH air.

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Amir Kweslove Thompson (37:17)

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Terry Gross (37:41)

So to illustrate the point that you were making about pain in music, let's listen to Family Affair, which is a song about, you know, kind of what you're saying, that one person does really well and other people in the family don't. And there's a lot of pain within the family. So this is Family affair Sly in the Family Stone.

Questlove (38:16)

Family affair It's a family affair One child grows up to be somebody that just loves to learn and another child grows up to be somebody you just love to burner mom loves the both of them. You see, it's in the blood.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (38:51)

Both.

Questlove (38:52)

Kids are good to mom Blood sticker than the mud It's a family affair It's a family affair It's a family affair Waldo Bear Walnut.

Terry Gross (39:13)

That was Sly and the Family Stone. My guest is Amir Questlove Thompson. His new documentary about the group and about Sly in particular is called Sly Lives the Burden of Black Genius. So, you know, we talked about this a little bit. The subtitle of your film is the Burden of Black Genius. And your theory is that for black artists in America, success can be more terrifying than failure for the reasons that you described. What do you think the burden included for Sly? Like, what were the personal burdens in his life in addition to being singled out and how singled out can mean removed from your own people? What are some of the personal burdens that you think he also shouldered?

Amir Kweslove Thompson (40:00)

1 to the pressure of writing game changing music. You know, Sly's the first person to use a drum machine. Sly's a kind of the pioneer of the bedroom, do it all yourself musician. You know, there's the pressure of feeding the machine, of writing the hits of Keep Winning. You know, there's the idea of what you are versus who you really are, you know, as the generations go on. Like, Sly was unable to do that. And when he drops the baton, there was someone in the wings waiting to pick that baton up. And at the time, that person was 12 years old. And that person's name was Michael Joseph Jackson. So Michael Jackson will wind up picking up the baton of what should have happened to sly. And then 10 years later, in 1982, Michael himself will go through that same process of being the chosen one, being the God, being the unifier, being the center of attention. And then suddenly he'll just wind up on a kind of a hamster wheel of chasing perfection. And this happens to everyone, this Prince, Whitney Houston. It's that level of pressure that one puts on themselves. You know, and there's just no space for humanity in entertainment, but especially in black entertainment. So I feel as though now's the time to have that conversation because I feel as though, especially with black people, we are now in a space where we are open to things like the discussion of therapy and mental health.

Terry Gross (41:52)

I want to pick up on that because I think that genius is often accompanied by or fueled by some kind of mental health issue, whether it's OCD or bipolar disorder, that there's something within you where you are wired to not necessarily be happy, but you are wired to do music or painting or writing. And, like, you kind of have no choice, but. And there's even been, like, studies about this, you know, that you can have some kind of mental health issue, and that is often, you know, self medicated with drugs. And I'm not trying to deny any of the things you said about how black artists have a burden that white artists don't. So I'm just trying to add, well.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (42:47)

Yeah, this became a serious point of contention with kind of me and the Disney organization and the idea of, like, well, is this the burden of genius or the burden of black genius? The difference between black genius and regular genius is that most white artists aren't. Their feet aren't gonna be held to the fire of. Remind yourself that you're Italian, you know, make sure you keep up your German roots.

Terry Gross (43:16)

Put some Yiddish in that song.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (43:18)

Yeah, exactly. Like there's. When you have black success, nine times out of 10 you're gonna go in the history books because it's just so pioneering. And you better make us proud and you better not mess up or embarrass us. I think right now we're just starting to have that conversation about how do we feel inside, you know, our humanity.

Terry Gross (43:45)

You talked the last time you were on our show about the importance of vulnerability.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (43:48)

Yeah.

Terry Gross (43:49)

And how it's time to talk about vulnerability and express vulnerability.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (43:53)

So these next six projects I'm working on, this will be the common denominator. I touch on this in the Earth, Wind and Fire Doc, which comes out in September. And with Sly, it's also about humanity and vulnerability, which, you know, is sometimes just way too risky to figure out. Will you get penalized if you are oversharing too much because some people might not be able to handle it.

Terry Gross (44:26)

My guest is Amir Kweslov Thompson. His documentary about Sly and the Family Stone is called Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air support for this.

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Terry Gross (46:12)

Podcast you talked to Sly and I don't know how much he participated in the movie, but how would you describe him now? He's in his early 80s, he's clean, he hasn't used drugs. I'm not sure how long, but he's off of them as far as yeah.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (46:30)

He'S been clean for about kind of close to a decade. And that's why we called it Sly Lives. Like. The irony of all this is that all of his disciples unfortunately didn't make it. But yet Sly is still with us. And for me, like, my favorite part of that film is when his kids describe what his life is like now. Like, I love the fact that Novena Caramel from KCRW in LA says that, you know, like he loves pizza with pineapples on it. He loves, you know, watching old westerns. He loves driving new cars. The first time I saw Sly drive, he was driving a very unusual, I don't know what kind of car that was, but just the fact that he has an everyday, normal existence. Like he plays with his grandkids, like he, he's just a normal guy. Which to me that speaks volumes. Like to be normal, to be human, you know, not to be the scary black guy, not to be the over sexualized person, but just a normal, relatable, everyday person. To me that's the dream.

Terry Gross (47:52)

Amir, it's been so great to talk with you and just like all these projects you're doing, it's really remarkable. I really look forward to the Earth, Wind and Fire movie now.

Amir Kweslove Thompson (48:02)

Well, whenever I do a press run, this is one of my favorite highlights. And you know, I'm so glad that for the last 20 plus years like this has sort of been like the springboard for my projects coming out. And I thank you for receiving it.

Terry Gross (48:18)

Amera Questlove Thompson's documentary Sly Lives, AKA the Burden of Black Genius is streaming on Hulu. Our conversation was recorded earlier this year when the film came out. Questlove is the drummer, co founder and leader of the Roots, the house band for the Tonight show starring Jimmy Fallon. The annual Roots picnic will be held in Philadelphia next Saturday and Sunday, May 31 and June 1. Featured performers this year include D' Angelo, Lenny Kravitz, Meek Mill, Glorilla and Miguel. Tomorrow on FRESH air, my guest will be writer James Patterson, who has sold more than 400 million copies of his books that includes the Alex Cross detective series, the Women's Murder Club and Maximum Ride. He's collaborated on books with Bill Clinton and Dolly Parton and is starting a novel with Mr. Beast. I hope you'll join us.

Questlove (49:09)

If you want me to stay, I'll be around today to be a Bayless for you to see. I'm about to go and then you'll know. For me to stay here I got to be me. You'll never be in doubt. That's what it's all about. You can't take me for granted and smile. Come on, please I'm gone. Forget to reach it by phone because I promise I'll be gone for a while.

Terry Gross (49:45)

FRESH air's executive producer is Daniel Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Bodonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Our consultant visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

Shopify Representative (50:18)

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