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- [00:01]
Terry Gross
This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep.
- [00:05]
Rami Youssef
More money in your wallet with no.
- [00:06]
Terry Gross
Fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.combank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC A quick note before we start today's show. You may have heard that President Trump has issued an executive order seeking to block all federal funding to npr. This is one in a series of threats to media organizations across the country. The executive order is an affront to the First Amendment rights of public media organizations. NPR remains committed to serving the public, covering news and popular culture without a paywall. This is a pivotal moment. It's more important than ever that everyone who can contribute comes together to pitch in as much as they are able. Please visit donate.NPR.org to give now and if you already support us via NPR or other means, thank you. Your support means so much to us. Now more than ever, you help make NPR shows freely available to everyone. We're proud to do this work for you and with you. Okay, let's start the show. This is FRESH air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Rami Youssef started as a standup comic. Then he created and starred in the semi autobiographical comedy drama series called rami, about a 20 something Egyptian American Muslim trying to make sense of how his life, including his sex life, fit with his commitment to Islam. The series won a Peabody Award and he won a Golden Globe for his performance. Yousef co created the comedy drama series Mo, starring his friend Mo Amer as an undocumented Palestinian American. Last year, Youssef hosted Saturday Night Live and had an HBO comedy special called More Feelings. His acting career is taking off. He stars with Steve Carell and Jason Schwarzman in the new HBO movie Mountainhead, which debuts May 31. It was written and directed by Jesse Armstrong, the creator of HBO succession. In 2023, Youssef co starred in the film Poor Things, which won a Golden Globe for best Motion picture, musical or comedy and was nominated for an Oscar for best picture. Rama Youssef has a new animated series set just before and after 9 11. It's about an extended family of Egyptian Americans in New Jersey. The parents and grandparents are immigrants. The children were born in America. Each of them is trying to figure out how to respond to the Islamophobia that's resulted from the terrorist attack on 9 11. Rami Yousef was 11 years old and in fifth grade on 9 11. That's about the same age as the boy in the series. The series is called Number one, happy Family usa, and that's streaming on Amazon Prime. In the father's attempt to prevent people from noticing they're an immigrant family and Muslim, he does his best to blend in by doing his best to construct the image of a happy, average American family. But because he doesn't quite understand American culture, just about everything he does to fit in is wrong, which only makes him stand out even more. The mother wants to stand up and defend Islam. This is a scene from the first episode, which takes place on 9 11, when the father and mother clash over how to respond. Rama Yousef does the voices of the father and the son. Salma Hindi VOICES the mother.
- [03:29]
Salma Hindi
Busa Rumi A lot happened today. Many people got hurt. This is the worst thing I have ever seen. Things are going to change for us. People are going to look at us differently just because of who we are. And what we must do now more than ever is find our face and be strong. No, we must blend in and change our values as much as possible. We will change everything about who we are to fit in. We must always be cheerful. We will never stick out. We from today have no culture. When people see our family, they won't think Arab. They will think they are happy. They are perfect. We are number one happy family. You usa.
- [04:15]
Terry Gross
Remy Youssef, welcome to FRESH air. It's such a pleasure to have you back on the show. That scene is so funny. I love it when the father says, from now on we have no culture.
- [04:26]
Salma Hindi
It's really great to be back after many years. I really appreciate it. And yeah, you know, it was, you know, it was this idea of really tapping into how, you know, it's almost kind of it is really funny and it's so cool that it gets to be funny. But obviously there's the other part of it that's really sad, which is, hey, maybe if I try to erase as much of myself, I'll be able to fit in. And I think that's the idea that I'm obsessed with. You know, there's obviously all the conversations about overt racism, Islamophobia, all these things on the outside. The parts that I always tend to hone in on is, well, what is the person doing to themselves amidst all that pressure?
- [05:05]
Terry Gross
What were the discussions like in your family living in New Jersey after 9 11? Were there conversations in your family about whether to stand up and defend diversity and defend Islam or whether to just, like you said, erase part of themselves?
- [05:23]
Salma Hindi
Yeah, I mean, I don't know that it was exactly hit the erase button but it really was okay, you know? Cause it's such a sad, terrible thing. And we're just near you know, the site of death of so many people who, you know, innocent people. So there's that piece where you're just as sad as everyone else, but then it turns towards you and who you are, and so you kind of go, okay, we should be quiet or something. It's incredibly confusing. It's incredibly disorienting. And I think within my family, we were always proud of who we were and where we come from. And at the same time, you kind of don't want to rock the boat. And I think my father was very pragmatic about it all. And I remember him kind of being like, you know, my family is really well read. They really. You know, I grew up with books all over the house. And my dad was just like, yeah, Japanese people went through a lot after Pearl harbor happened. He was already kind of saying almost. There was this feeling of this might be our turn right now. And that was at the time. And then now it's kind of like, so when does the turn end? Exactly. What's going on?
- [06:38]
Terry Gross
Did you code switch a lot when you were 11? After 9? 11, like the cartoon version of the sun does. Part of the code switching is not just the way he talks. It's also what he wears to try to look like all American.
- [06:53]
Salma Hindi
Yeah, I mean, I grew up in New Jersey, and there was this, like, burgeoning emo rock scene. And I was so jealous of my friends who had the straight hair and wore the tight pants, and I had this curly fro, and I tried to hide it with a hat. I was always wearing hats. And, you know, even in my older age, it's like such a holdover from being a kid and trying to just stuff it under a hat. But, you know, the beauty of this series for me has been that I think every. Everyone code switches, you know, And I think we leaned into this animated style where the family literally looks different when they're inside the house and when they're outside the house. And I think, to an extent, everybody does that, you know, and what becomes, you know, the larger pressure cooker is that there is this performance that this family is literally doing for the FBI agent who moves in across the street. But at that core, underneath all of it, I think this is what everybody does, and I think it's certainly what kids do. And so, in so many ways, it really feels like this quintessential just middle school experience. But you add onto it the creation Of Homeland Security.
- [08:02]
Terry Gross
Right. A good reason to be paranoid. Like, you have every reason to feel like you're sticking out, you're not fitting in, and maybe that means prison.
- [08:11]
Salma Hindi
Yeah, it's very much okay. Is Courtney the popular girl talking about me behind my back? And are the phones tapped? You know, and usually people just have to deal with the Courtney part. And now this kid has both of them, and that's where the series lives.
- [08:31]
Terry Gross
You do the voice of both the father and the son, and their voices are very different. Do you want to demonstrate both voices for us?
- [08:39]
Salma Hindi
Well, you know what it was? It was my sister Reem. She was a producer on the animated show with me, and she had pulled up all these videos when I was a kid because I was struggling really finding these voices. I've never done this kind of acting before. And when I was a kid, I used to make these videos, and I'd do them sometimes when my parents were sleeping. And so I'd kind of, like, whisper, and I'd kind of be raspy, you know, and I'd be in that place. And so I just copied what I actually sounded like as a kid there. And then I was trying to find the complete opposite and go really deep into my stomach and find the anxiety and find it in the bottom of the throat, you know, and then became the dad.
- [09:21]
Terry Gross
The father, in some ways is kind of like Homer Simpson in kind of getting everything wrong, misconstruing things. If I remember correctly, he hangs up to fit in and look so American. He hangs up Christmas ornaments in the summer. He keeps using the word like Jesus Christ, totally inappropriately. But anyways, do you see a connection between him and Homer Simpson?
- [09:48]
Salma Hindi
Totally. I mean, I think there's this father who, you know, I think in both cases, being the head of a household in the ways that they think they are and the ways that they totally aren't, and they end up banging their head every direction that they move. The father in this show, Hussein Hussain is his name, his anxiety takes him over in this way that is almost vulnerable. And it's certainly very vulnerable because he does these musical numbers throughout the show that kind of tap into what's really going on with him. And he kind of became the star of the show where I went, oh, yeah, wow. I mean, he's the one that is most split by this and is probably furthest into this idea of a code switch kind of splitting you right down the middle.
- [10:36]
Terry Gross
How did your father feel about the character of the father? Because people always assume, oh, well, that's how the father is in mysterious. So his real father, you know, Rami Youssef's father must be like that. Your father sounds like the opposite.
- [10:50]
Salma Hindi
My father's really cool. I mean, I think part of my. And my mother is so cool. I mean, I'm really lucky. I mean, I feel part of why I've been able to explore these feelings in my work artistically is that they gave us the space as parents to, you know, understand our feelings. And so it's not like these elements didn't exist in our communities and in our families. And so our. This kind of constant fear and paranoia is actually not exaggerated. I would just say that my family saw it. Even if they were experiencing it, they were actually able to see, well, maybe we should turn the volume down. And then I think the fun thing with making something, especially a cartoon, is you never have to turn the volume down because it's a cartoon. And so I think that my parents, when they watch my work, I kind of painstakingly go through making sure that a lot of details are different enough. And we also write these shows in writers rooms where we're drawing from other writers and their families and kind of what they went through. So I think my parents, they're pretty good about kind of going, eh, who cares? Especially at this point, too. My dad's really funny about this stuff. He just is like, I'm seven years old. Who cares?
- [12:05]
Terry Gross
So there's briefly a grandfather in the series, and he is very sexist. Like, he is the man, and he has control, especially control over his wife. He's grumpy. He orders people around. And at one point he says, I sacrificed everything for this family. Most men of my generation hit. And he's referring to hitting women. And he says, I only yell. I didn't even take a second wife. So did you have a grandfather who was like that? And if so, how did you deal with it? Like, did you say anything?
- [12:41]
Salma Hindi
My grandparents never lived with us. I mean, this is trying to kind of create something that's more emblematic of that generational thing than my actual grandfather, who was quite different and was also. You know, my grandfather is really interesting because he grew up in a village. He was one of two people who could read. And then he took that and became one of the only ones there again, who went to college and then became an interpreter for the United Nations. He interpreted between Arabic and French and English for over 20 years. So he's kind of this totally different mold, I think, of that, Jen, because he was such a.
- [13:20]
Terry Gross
Can I Just stop you for a second. That's amazing. He was one of two people in his village who could read and became a UN translator.
- [13:27]
Salma Hindi
It is so much more impressive. Sometimes people will say to me, oh, dude, you were just like a kid in New Jersey. And now you have this whole Hollywood thing. And I go, man, in terms of arcs within my family, that's not really. It's like, yeah, I should have. Of course, I have to look at what came before me. I mean, he set the bar.
- [13:50]
Terry Gross
So you write and sing songs for the series, and I want to play one that's. I think you can describe it as the theme song. And it ends the first episode of Number One, Happy Family USA so let's hear it, and then we'll talk about writing songs. So this is in the voice of the father.
- [14:10]
Salma Hindi
Hello. Hello, neighbors. You're afraid of us near you but the only blood we want Is to bleed red, white and blue I know you think we're scary But I swear to you we're. We will prove to you our love we will be number one Number one family in you, USA Number one Happy family USA Is the truth takes a boy.
- [14:52]
Terry Gross
So what made you think you should turn part of this into a musical?
- [14:57]
Salma Hindi
So, yeah, that song comes out of the earlier clip that you played where he kind of proclaims out of peak anxiety to his family that they're gonna erase their identity. And then he bursts the door open and starts singing this proclamation to the neighborhood and forces his family to come out and dance with him on the front lawn. And then the song, as you can kinda hear there, ends with the police swarming the house, a helicopter, and then Hussein sacrificing his son to the authorities, you know, hoping that that will appe. And, you know, I felt this. It's either gonna be, we're making something depressing or something so insane that you have to laugh at this depressing subtext. And so it had to be the latter. And that's where music just started to feel like such a fun extension.
- [15:57]
Terry Gross
Have you ever been in a band?
- [15:59]
Salma Hindi
In high school, I was in a band and played backup guitar, backup vocals, and always fiddled around with, you know, guitars. And then I kind of had put them. I put the music thing down as I kind of went into music, into comedy and performing and all of that. And then we were doing these voices at a sound studio that had all these instruments. And I probably picked up the guitar hour for the first time after many, many years and started singing these songs as the dad and had so Much fun. And then we ended up baking it into the show.
- [16:36]
Terry Gross
In your band, did you do covers or originals?
- [16:40]
Salma Hindi
It was originals, and if you go back and listen to the originals, you'd probably encourage us to do covers.
- [16:48]
Terry Gross
Well, in addition to the number one happy family song that we just heard, you write some dark songs, and I want to play a dark song. This is a father singing. One of the lines he sings is, sometimes the darkness comes for me. And this is his deep internal feelings, not the facade he's trying to put on. So let's hear that. Do you want to say anything about it before we hear it?
- [17:11]
Salma Hindi
This comes at the end of an episode where we've seen him probably be his most performative. And then he has this moment when everyone's asleep, and he goes out into the driveway and sits by his halal cart. He's a halal cart vendor in the city, and it's always parked in the driveway. And I love that image because it sticks out in this suburb that they can barely afford. And he sits at it, starts playing guitar, and at a certain point, there's, like, a piano line in which he hits the area of the cart where the sodas are stored, and it opens up into a keyboard, and there's a piano that comes out of the cart. And so he's singing this thing that sounds sad, but at the same time, visually is, I think, quite funny.
- [18:02]
Terry Gross
And it's the kind of thing you can only do in animation.
- [18:05]
Salma Hindi
Yes.
- [18:06]
Terry Gross
Yeah. Okay, let's hear it.
- [18:22]
Salma Hindi
I think I'm scared But I'm sitting with my family Got to show them that I'm brave Sometimes I'm quiet but I think it's just because I might scream, I've got to be Mr. Tough Guy. I'm the dad. But sometimes, oh, oh, the darkness comes for me and I don't know what to do. Yeah, the darkness. Oh, it comes for you, too. And what do you do? I think I'm gonna fight for the light. Yeah, I think I'm gonna fight for the light. I think I'm gonna fight for the light, baby. I'm fighting the fight.
- [19:40]
Terry Gross
Do I detect a very slight Lou Reed influence in that?
- [19:46]
Salma Hindi
Somebody called it Kebab Dylan. Somebody else was like, wait, dude, this is like, war on drugs. This is like, some sort of, like, Arab Jeff Buckley thing. Yeah, it's totally this, like, folk thing that is so fun to do as this character because it kind of sneaks up on you. And he. Again, he's so crazy the whole episode. And then all of a sudden you go, oh my God, this guy's so tender. And there's this tenderness in him. And that is the experience of so many of the men that I know where you go, oh, man, this dude is like kind of intense. And then you get him alone and you go, wait, is this the most emotional person on earth?
- [20:30]
Terry Gross
Yeah. Okay. And I want to point out again that that was my guest Rami Youssef singing on that song. Is that your guitar also?
- [20:38]
Salma Hindi
It is.
- [20:39]
Terry Gross
Good for you. And that was an excerpt from Rami Youssef's new animated series, Number One Happy Family usa. Well, let's take a short break here and then there's plenty more to talk about. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rami Youssef. His new animated series is called Number One Happy Family usa. And also he co stars in the new movie Mountainhead, which debuts on HBO and Max May 31. And it was written and directed by Jesse Armstrong, who created Succession. We'll be right back.
- [21:11]
Salma Hindi
Terrence.
- [21:11]
Terry Gross
I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH air.
- [21:14]
Salma Hindi
You may have heard that President Trump has issued an executive order seeking to.
- [21:18]
Terry Gross
Block all federal funding to npr. This is the latest in a series.
- [21:23]
Salma Hindi
Of threats to media organizations across the country. Millions of people depend on the NPR.
- [21:29]
Terry Gross
Network now more than ever. We're depending on you. Please donate today.
- [21:35]
Salma Hindi
Visit Donate NPR Know that fizzy feeling.
- [21:39]
Terry Gross
You get when you read something really good?
- [21:41]
Salma Hindi
Watch the movie everyone's been talking about.
- [21:43]
Terry Gross
Or catch the show that the Internet can't get over?
- [21:46]
Salma Hindi
At the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast, we chase that feeling four times a week.
- [21:50]
Terry Gross
We'll serve you recommendations and commentary on.
- [21:53]
Salma Hindi
The buzziest movies, tv, music and more, from low brow to highbrow to the stuff in between. Catch the Pop Culture Happy Hour Podcast from npr. I'm Tonya Moseley, co host of Fresh air. At a time of sound bites and short attention, sp our show is all about the deep dive. We do long form interviews with people behind the best in film, books, tv, music and journalism. Here our guests open up about their process and their lives in ways you've never heard before. Listen to the Fresh AIR podcast from NPR and whyy.
- [22:29]
Terry Gross
This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. Start selling with Shopify today. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your.
- [22:39]
Salma Hindi
Business without the struggle.
- [22:41]
Terry Gross
Go to shopify.com npr. You started out in college studying political science and I think economics as well. I'm not sure where that came from Considering where you've ended up. But how did you go from that to comedy?
- [22:58]
Salma Hindi
I was very bad at school, and so I ended up, you know, I ended up leaving. I was always in high school, really middle school and high school. I was fascinated with cameras, and I was always making things. And then in the back of my head, I said, this is what I love doing the most, but there's no way I'm going to be able to actually live doing this. And I didn't see a path to it being a career because I didn't know anyone who'd ever done that. So I just thought I had to go to school and become a lawyer, you know, because that was kind of the only thing I could imagine myself doing, even if I had no real connection to, like, the law. I just said, well, I know how to talk. And it seems like those guys talk, and then they're able to feed their families by talking. So that was kind of all. I could say nothing to it. And then I was, you know, there's some books you gotta read in the middle. And then this comedy thing comes up and you go, oh, well, you could talk here, too. And this is way more in line with what I love about art and filmmaking. And so, yeah, it just became inevitable at a certain point.
- [24:10]
Terry Gross
It seems to me the standup comedy world is so different than what the life of a faithful Muslim would look like. Cause, you know, I don't know what circles you traveled in, but you think of standup comics, first of all, of, you know, just being on the road all the time and having really bad eating habits and drinking a lot. So were there parts of your life, especially early on when you had to. You probably had less control of your life early on when you started in stand up, Even things like, is it five times a day? Yeah, yeah. Praying five times a day. As a young comic on the road, yeah. I'm sure there were some very inopportune times that you wanted to pray, and you were on, like, a bus or a plane or doing a set. How do you manage that? Like, what do you have to make certain compromises?
- [25:12]
Salma Hindi
Well, this is a great thing. There's so many great features that are built in. Terry, you should do traveler's prayers where you can combine. I mean, it's amazing.
- [25:18]
Terry Gross
Oh, there's travelers prayers.
- [25:20]
Salma Hindi
Oh, yeah.
- [25:20]
Terry Gross
Are there special prayers?
- [25:21]
Salma Hindi
Oh, you can combo. You can combo and shorten and. But. But I think that the thing you're talking about, though, in terms of, like, fitting it in in certain places, this is where I actually think an artistic lifestyle is so interesting because so my father, you know, worked managing hotels, always on his feet, always dealing with people. Hey, where do I pray? Like, the broom closet. You know, there's that. And it's just like, where is that going to happen? And then, you know, when you're an artist, it's like everyone assumes you're gonna be 20 minutes late. You know, there's this whole other, you know, kind of way. And I always think, you know, I'm surrounded by spiritual people, you know, whether they are, you know, part of any sort of practicing thing or not. Because Hollywood is basically, hey, I have this 130 page, you know, thing. And I know you don't see it yet, but I see it. I believe in the unseen of these words on this page. Come with me, and let's all believe in it together and make it such a spiritual place, you know, everyone is tapping into, you know, the unseen.
- [26:27]
Terry Gross
Do you have prayer breaks for everybody? Who wants it on your sets?
- [26:34]
Salma Hindi
We do. Yeah. It's on our call sheet.
- [26:36]
Terry Gross
Now, you mentioned that your father worked at a hotel, and it was the Plaza, and I think it was the time that Trump. Trump owned it, right? Yeah, yeah. And the first time you were on our show, you told us that there was a photo in your home of Trump and your father, since your father worked in Trump's Plaza Hotel, and you thought of him as like, Uncle Donald Trump, because anybody who was with your father on the wall like that, that was like an uncle. And I'm wondering, this is a strange question, but Trump seems so obsessed now with immigrants crossing the border from the south, right. South of the U.S. mexican border. Has that eased up the Islamophobia? Because the lens is now on Venezuela and El Salvador.
- [27:35]
Salma Hindi
Well, I mean, first of all, it's always kind of baffling, just because I have firsthand experience that any of the business acumen that he relies on was built up by immigrants. I mean, I think on one hand, people go, his father gave him a huge check. But on the other hand, it's. Whatever did punch through was these are businesses built on immigrants, especially the hotel business in New York. So that's always crazy. And then I think in terms of, you know, it almost goes back to what we were talking about earlier of whose turn is it in this country? And right now, everyone's having a lot of turns. So on one hand, he's looking at the south, immigration, border stuff, but then I also think that the censorship around the conversation with Palestine and the way that he's really legislating, you know, with, you know, globally. Islamophobically is incredibly heightened and frightening. And it's almost like he's taking it to new levels. I mean, he's posting the craziest things about just leveling out an entire, you know, culture. So, you know, yeah, he's really he's given everyone a go.
- [28:44]
Terry Gross
Was it Trump who promoted your father or was it somebody?
- [28:48]
Salma Hindi
It was somebody else. But, you know, my father's relationship with his family was always my father's always categorized it as incredibly positive With Trump's family. Yeah.
- [29:01]
Terry Gross
How did your father feel after he became president? I don't know if you want to speak on your father's behalf.
- [29:07]
Salma Hindi
I don't know. You know how, like there's all these conversations where people go, oh, man, that Republican senator's out there bashing gay people. And we all know he's gay. And it's like, oh, man, Trump's out there and he's just bashing immigrants. And we know he really likes them and works with them and they helped him with everything. And so it's like you're just watching something that defies the experience that you've had.
- [29:31]
Terry Gross
Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rami Youssef. His new animated series is called Number One Happy Family usa. He's one of the stars of the new movie Mountainhead, which premieres on HBO May 31st. And he had a semi autobiographical series called Rami that is still streaming on Hulu. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.
- [29:53]
Salma Hindi
When Malcolm Gladwell presented NPR's Throughline podcast with a Peabody Award, he praised it for its historical and moral clarity. On Throughline, we take you back in time to the origins of what's in the news, like presidential power, aging and evangelicalism. Time travel with us every week on the Throughline podcast from npr.
- [30:17]
Terry Gross
A lot of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story, but right now you probably need more. On up first from npr, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under 15 minutes because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big crazy world of ours on any given morning. Listen now to the UPVERSE podcast from npr. Tariffs, recessions, how Colombian drug cartels gave us blueberries all year long. That's the kind of thing the Planet Money podcast explains. I'm Sarah Gonzalez. And on Planet Money, we help you understand the economy and how things all.
- [30:56]
Rami Youssef
Around you came to be the way.
- [30:57]
Terry Gross
They are para que cepas. So, you know, listen to the Planet Money podcast from npr. I want to play another clip. And this is from your 2024 special, More Feelings, a sequel to your earlier special, Feelings. And this is about getting a call after the Israelis were taken as hostages by Hamas. So let's hear that clip.
- [31:26]
Salma Hindi
October 10th, I get a call from a guy I know. He goes, yo, bro, where are you at with Hamas? Where am I at? Like, am I a member? You think any of us, like, what happened on October 7th? It's awful. We hate seeing people die. It's inhumane. It made me cry, and it always does. It's why we've been talking about Palestine our whole lives. We hate what's happening there. We want justice, we want peace. And we do. So, of course I don't like it. Now I gotta prove to you that I'm not violent. Like, you think that's what's in my heart? You know me, you think, like, I'm like, Hamas, like, bro, I'm a Taliban guy. Like, that's. That's a real group. That's. They've been going for 20 years. You know what I'm saying? Like, they're strong.
- [32:28]
Terry Gross
I just thought that was a really nice mix of, like, speaking from the heart and being really funny. And it's a hard subject to tackle because you're gonna get it from all sides, right?
- [32:41]
Salma Hindi
Yeah, absolutely.
- [32:43]
Terry Gross
Can we just, like, break down the joke for a second and talk about the process of, like, speaking out in defense of Palestinian lives while also saying you have to free the Israeli hostages and then finding where the joke is going to land? Like, what is the funny part of that? What was the process, like for you of figuring out, like, where do I go with this to turn it into comedy?
- [33:09]
Salma Hindi
Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a balance of threading what needs to be said with diverting expectation. And so the expectation, obviously, in this joke, it's all just like, tension release. It's like, okay, what am I gonna say? What am I gonna say? What's he gonna say? And then it just. You swerve right into just. It's like, oh, my God, you think I support a terrorist group, not that one, or whatever.
- [33:35]
Terry Gross
You know what I mean?
- [33:35]
Salma Hindi
So that's. That's the. That's the misdirect. Right? And so, yeah, for me, it's, you know, how do you kind of thread that stuff and do it? And then you also know that you're not hitting everything, right? Because it's like, there's so much on the table in that joke that's just not discussed because it's a joke and I'll never be able to get at it, you know, and that's just part of the cost of what it is that I do. And I'm also. I'm not really qualified to. There's so many unbelievable Palestinian authors and historians and people who do these things in a way that it's so much more eloquent because they know. And my thing is, like, not that I'm necessarily like a poet, but, you know, if you read poetry from the Middle east, it's so beautiful in how it can capture so much in its brevity. And that's my hope with the joke is in its brevity. It can kind of hold a lot of feelings. So, you know, the misdirect at the end of the joke holds the frustration that you're even putting me in this framework of yours. And the idea that you think that I am not upset is insane because you've known me my whole life, you know, so all those things are kind of carried while trying to, you know, just hit the target of what my actual job is.
- [34:51]
Terry Gross
Did part of you say to yourself, maybe I'd be better off not bringing this up at all?
- [34:56]
Salma Hindi
At the end of the day, I'm wired to go near. Don't touch that. Don't touch that. I'm like a little child. I go, well, why not? No, I could touch it. Let me prove to you that I could at least hover around it. That is just. That is just. I'm just like a little kid who's just like, no, don't tell me no. Yes. Because I don't want there to be this elephant in the room. Then what am I doing? It feels so dishonest. It feels so. What is the point of even being up here? You know, Like, I can't let that go.
- [35:27]
Terry Gross
In the series the Studio, which was co created by Seth Rogen and he stars. It's a comedy series and he stars as a movie studio head, there's an episode that takes place around the Golden Globes. Now, you won a Golden Globe for your performance in Rami, and you're one of the people who comes out and announces the award winners and they come up on stage and anyways, there's a lot of campaigning and like all of the award shows. And I'm wondering, having won a Golden Globe and having been part of this episode, if you have anything to tell us about what that campaigning is like and what you think of it if you had to do it, and what the experience was like for you, first.
- [36:11]
Salma Hindi
Off that show, getting to be a part of it and do an episode. It was amazing because those guys are so genius in their satire, you know, Seth and Evan. And I think what they get at so well is why it's called the business and why it's called the industry, you know, because it feels almost industrial. It's like, this is where you're gonna show up, and this is what you're gonna do, and these are the people you need to talk to. And I've always found this part of it, and I think they obviously relate to it. You have to be like. You have to be incredibly sensitive in order to tap into yourself to make something artistic that will resonate with people immediately. When you are done with this really sensitive process, it's almost like you need to harden everything about yourself that made you able to make that thing, to then put up with a barrage of the criticism that's gonna come about the project because no one will ever be happy. Like, you never make something that everyone loves in order to be in a bunch of rooms with people where you kind of, you know, and look. For me, I love meeting new people. I can't say that it's always this crazy strain, but certainly you go to the point of exhaustion where if you kind of don't harden yourself up a little bit, like, you're just gonna feel terrible. And so I've always been really fascinated by. We need the most sensitive people to suddenly be business people. And that is captured really well in.
- [37:47]
Terry Gross
That episode you hosted Saturday Night Live last year, and it was during Ramadan. So how did that work out? Because people go crazy when they're guest hosting Saturday Night Live. The whole cast goes crazy because they're writing, like, late into the morning, like, overnight. And it sounded so intense in the days leading up to Saturday night. So how did you make it through all of that during Ramadan?
- [38:17]
Salma Hindi
It was actually really wild because I did fast that whole week. In a way, SNL's hours are a bit Ramadan friendly because everyone is up until these really. You know, it's almost like they could all do Ramadan all the time because they leave the office at, like, three in the morning, and then they sleep in until, you know, like, noon or whatever, and then come and they work really hard. I'm not saying that like they're slacking, but in an odd way, it did work, but it was certainly a strain because you can't have that coffee to start the day. And I felt like I probably had a more calm week because I was fasting because stuff would be going down and I'd go, you know, this is probably just Ramadan brain and it's not actually a big deal. And so I got to kind of lean into that. But I'm pretty sure if I had just been eating, I would have been like, this is crazy. This is so nuts. But so much fun. I had so much fun. It was really a group of people. And when you go through that week with them, too, when you see them later, you just, you feel like you're seeing family because you went through that week.
- [39:27]
Terry Gross
Yeah. It looked like you were having a good time. Rami Youssef, it's really been such a pleasure to have you back on the show. Thank you so much.
- [39:35]
Salma Hindi
Oh, thank you for the, you know, just incredibly thoughtful questions. It's always just so exciting. So I thank you.
- [39:40]
Terry Gross
Terry Ramy Youssef's new animated series called Number One Happy Family usa, is streaming on Amazon Prime Video. He co stars on the new HBO movie Mountainhead, written and directed by Jesse Armstrong. It premieres May 31st. After we take a short break. TV critic David Biancooli reviews this year's Kennedy Center Mark Twain Prize for American Humor ceremony honoring Conan o' Brien. It's streaming on Netflix. This is FRESH air.
- [40:11]
Salma Hindi
Imagine, if you will, a show from.
- [40:12]
Terry Gross
NPR that's not like npr, a show.
- [40:15]
Rami Youssef
That focuses not on the important but the stupid, which features stories about people.
- [40:19]
Terry Gross
Smuggling animals in their pants, incompetent criminals.
- [40:22]
Rami Youssef
And ridiculous science studies.
- [40:24]
Salma Hindi
And call it Wait, Wait, Don't Tell.
- [40:25]
Rami Youssef
Me, because the good names were taken. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me.
- [40:29]
Salma Hindi
Yes, that is what it is called. Wherever you get your podcasts on the Indicator from Planet Money podcast, we're here to help you make sense of the economic news from Trump's tariffs. It's called in game theory a trigger strategy or sometimes called grim trigger, which sort of has a cowboy esque ring to it to what exactly a sovereign wealth fund is. For insight every weekday, listen to NPR's the Indicator from Planet Money.
- [41:02]
Terry Gross
Last December, Conan O' Brien was selected by the Kennedy center as the next recipient of the Mark Twain Prize for American Humor. In February, newly re elected President Trump dismissed the Kennedy Center's chairman and president and appointed himself as the new chair. Invited performers, guests and O' Brien himself had to decide whether to attend the March 23 awards ceremony to under the Kennedy Center's new leadership, they did, and Netflix recorded it and unveiled the resultant TV special May 4th. It's called Conan O' Brien the Kennedy Center Mark Twain Prize for American Humor, and our TV critic David Biancooli has this review.
- [41:43]
Rami Youssef
Bob Smigel was a writer for Late Night with Conan o' Brien in its early days and was and still is the man providing the voice and barbed humor of the sarcastic hand puppet known as Triumph, the insult comic dog. Triumph opened the Mark Twain Prize for American Humor Award presentation by subtly acknowledging the controversy caused by the recent restructuring of the Kennedy center management as Conan o' Brien, waiting in the wings to be introduced, laughed loudly.
- [42:10]
Salma Hindi
Good evening and welcome to the Kennedy Center. Thank you all for coming and shame, that should cover it.
- [42:24]
Rami Youssef
Yes, that tension and concern about partisan political interference towards the arts was unavoidable, but because this was a gathering of comics celebrating the brave and outspoken legacy of Mark Twain, it was not unmentionable. Here's how John Mulaney, the first of many comics to pay tribute to Conan, alluded to it.
- [42:45]
Salma Hindi
Congratulations to my friend Conan O' Brien on receiving the 26th and final mark Twain Prize for American Humor.
- [42:55]
Rami Youssef
The Max Weinberg 7, led by Conan's old late night and Tonight show drummer, provided the music. Former sidekicks and opening acts such as Andy Richter and Reggie Watts were given time to pay their respects. So were three former recipients of the Mark Twain Will Ferrell, David Letterman and Adam Sandler. Other comics both toasting and roasting. The evening's guest of honor included Sarah Silverman, Stephen Colbert, Will Forte, Nikki Glaser, Bill Burr and Kamal Nanjani, whose appearance was staged like a version of a TED Talk, complete with projected graphics and lots of statistics. He pointed out how Conan was widely recognized for launching his career as a staff writer on the Simpsons. Then Nanjani took a deep dive into the numbers to hilarious effect. Even Conan in the guest of honor box but mic'd up could be heard laughing at the mathematically accurate comedy bit and its pie charts.
- [43:52]
Terry Gross
Well, there are 781 episodes of the Simpsons. Conan wrote three.
- [43:59]
Salma Hindi
You know what? Let's zoom in so we can see it a little bit more. Let's zoom in a little bit more.
- [44:06]
Terry Gross
There we go. That is a whopping 0.38% by comparison. Charles Manson wrote 0.5 of the songs released by the Beach Boys.
- [44:22]
Salma Hindi
Charles Manson is a bigger part of the Beach Boys than Conan is off the Simpsons.
- [44:29]
Rami Youssef
Just about everyone on stage scored big and provided an original approach. Stephen Colbert brought along Hot Ones host Sean Evans to replicate Conan's viral hot wing eating interview from that show, Sarah Silverman. Well, you have to see what she did to believe it. And by the time David Letterman showed up at the end to hand the prize to Conan o' Brien, comics preceding him had combined to present the funniest Mark Twain Prize show in its 26 year history, and one with lots of messages, the Mark Twain Prize.
- [45:02]
Terry Gross
Oh, my God.
- [45:03]
Salma Hindi
Let me just say one thing, and.
- [45:04]
Rami Youssef
I'm not a historian, but I believe.
- [45:07]
Salma Hindi
That history will show this will have been the most entertaining gathering of the resistance ever.
- [45:14]
Rami Youssef
The strongest points were saved for last when Conan took the stage to accept the award. More than any previous recipient, he articulated an understanding and appreciation of what the author Mark Twain wrote and represented. Conan, after all, had graduated from Harvard majoring in history and literature. And without once evoking the name of Donald Trump, Conan cited Twain's works and put them into a context that reflected our times as much as Twain's.
- [45:42]
Terry Gross
First and foremost, Twain hated bullies.
- [45:46]
Salma Hindi
He populated his works with abusers such.
- [45:49]
Terry Gross
As Huck Finn's alcoholic father, Tom Driscoll and Pudd' Nhead Wilson. And he made his readers passionately hate those characters.
- [45:56]
Salma Hindi
He punched up, not down.
- [45:58]
Terry Gross
And he deeply, deeply empathized with the weak.
- [46:02]
Rami Youssef
Conan then brought it full circle by bringing things back to his perspective and his profession.
- [46:07]
Terry Gross
Above all, Twain was a patriot in the best sense of the word. He loved America, but knew it was deeply flawed. Twain wrote, patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
- [46:25]
Rami Youssef
Now.
- [46:31]
Salma Hindi
Some of you.
- [46:34]
Terry Gross
Some of you might be thinking, what does this have.
- [46:36]
Salma Hindi
To do with comedy?
- [46:37]
Terry Gross
It has everything to do with comedy.
- [46:42]
Salma Hindi
Everything.
- [46:43]
Rami Youssef
It was as much a lecture as an acceptance speech. And it also may have provided a clue to a hidden motivation behind Conan's Travel series, Conan O' Brien Must Go, which started its second season May 8th on Max.
- [46:56]
Terry Gross
Twain empathized with the powerless in America, former slaves struggling in Reconstruction, immigrant Chinese laborers in California, and European Jews fleeing anti Semitic antisemitism. Twain's remedy for ignorance about the world.
- [47:08]
Salma Hindi
Around us was to travel at a.
- [47:10]
Terry Gross
Time when travel was very long and very difficult. Twain circled the globe and he wrote, travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and.
- [47:20]
Salma Hindi
Narrow mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely.
- [47:24]
Rami Youssef
On these accounts, from Triumph to Letterman, every speaker on that Kennedy center stage that night explained why Conan o' Brien was a worthy recipient of the Mark Twain Award. Yet no one explained it as well as Conan himself. Afterward, when he closed the show by jamming on guitar playing Neil Young's Living in the Free World with Adam Sandler and The Max Weinberg 7. He looked like he was having the time of his life. And as this special proves, as a comic and even as a student of Twain's writings, Conan o' Brien has led quite a life.
- [47:57]
Terry Gross
David Biancooli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed Conan o' Brien, the Kennedy Center Mark Twain Prize for American Humor. It's streaming on Netflix.
- [48:08]
Salma Hindi
Ladies and gentlemen, this man can play guitar. Don't we want to see the man jam a little bit?
- [48:20]
Terry Gross
Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be ProPublica reporter David Armstrong. He'll explain why some critically needed prescription drugs are so expensive in the US It's a subject he knows from personal experience. A single pill of the cancer treatment he takes costs roughly the same as a new iPhone. I hope you'll join us. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Annmarie Budonato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.
- [48:58]
Salma Hindi
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