Raphael Saadiq's Secret To Creative Success: 'Dare To Suck'

Summary

Fresh Air: Raphael Siddiq's Secret To Creative Success: 'Dare To Suck'

Introduction

In the July 8, 2025 episode of NPR's Fresh Air, host Tonya Moseley engages in a profound conversation with Grammy-winning and Oscar-nominated musician Raphael Siddiq. Renowned for his multifaceted career as a singer, songwriter, multi-instrumentalist, and producer, Siddiq delves into his creative journey, personal losses, and the philosophy that drives his artistic success.

Early Life and Musical Beginnings

Raphael Siddiq's passion for music was ignited in his childhood, heavily influenced by his older brother, Dwayne Wiggins, a co-founder of the acclaimed group Tony, Tony, Tony. Reflecting on his upbringing, Siddiq shares:

"He sort of showed me the way because he loved music so much. I loved it too." ([04:27])

Growing up in Oakland with 14 siblings, Siddiq faced the heartbreak of losing five siblings, including Dwayne. These early experiences shaped his emotional depth and resilience, which later became integral to his music and performances.

One Man Show and Personal Tragedies

Siddiq's one-man show, No Bandwidth, One Man, One Night, is a testament to his ability to blend triumphs with tribulations. He emphasizes the importance of authenticity in storytelling:

"I wanted people to see and hear... you can still show someone a beautiful side through dark times." ([06:35])

The show invites audiences to disconnect from their devices, fostering an intimate environment where Siddiq narrates the highs and lows that have defined his career over three decades.

Collaborations and Influences

Throughout his career, Siddiq has collaborated with legendary artists such as Whitney Houston, Beyoncé, Stevie Wonder, and Erykah Badu. His ability to bridge classic influences with contemporary sounds sets him apart. Discussing his collaboration with Beyoncé, Siddiq recounts:

"Working with Ms. Beyoncé is... I would just dream up like, call this guy, call this guy and that's how Quincy Jones would do it." ([24:43])

This collaborative spirit extends to his work on Beyoncé's Cowboy Carter album, where he co-wrote the award-winning song "Bodyguard." Despite initial doubts about the song's fit, Beyoncé's instinct led to its successful inclusion:

"She caught it in like two seconds. She goes, what? What's that?" ([24:54])

Creative Process and Signature Concepts

A cornerstone of Siddiq's creative philosophy is the mantra "dare to suck," a concept that encourages artists to embrace vulnerability and experimentation. Originating from an acting class experience, Siddiq explains:

"I'm going to try to not be different. I'm going to try to do something that I like first and second." ([28:23])

This fearless approach has allowed him to innovate within his music and performances, continually pushing boundaries and exploring new artistic territories.

Current Projects and Legacy

Siddiq's recent work includes co-writing "I Lied to Youo" for Ryan Coogler's film Sinners. The song serves as an emotional anchor for the movie, drawing from Siddiq's gospel roots:

"He loves the Lord, I still love church, but I gotta go." ([18:58])

Beyond music, Siddiq is committed to community engagement, exemplified by his initiative to open a boxing gym in Modesto aimed at empowering youth. He shares the impact of this project:

"This was more to get kids off the street, giving them a place to go to, to be... they have a place to talk to adults." ([32:05])

Conclusion

Raphael Siddiq's journey is a compelling blend of musical mastery, personal resilience, and unwavering dedication to his craft. Through his one-man show, collaborations with industry giants, and community projects, Siddiq exemplifies the spirit of "dare to suck," inspiring both audiences and fellow artists to embrace their authentic selves and pursue creative excellence.

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This summary captures the essence of Raphael Siddiq's conversation on Fresh Air, highlighting his personal and professional experiences, creative philosophies, and contributions to music and community.

Transcript

[Tonya Moseley]

This Message comes from Amazon One Medical. Ever gotten sick on vacation? Amazon One Medical has 247 virtual care so you can get help no matter where you are. It's kind of like the room service of medical care. Thanks to Amazon Healthcare just got less painful. This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. No idea where to sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout to help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level today. This is FRESH air. I'm Tonya Moseley and my guest today is Raphael Siddiq, a Grammy winning and Oscar nominated singer, songwriter, multi instrumentalist and producer. He just announced an extended national tour of his one man show, no Bandwidth, One Man, One Night. Three decades of hits. It started at the Apollo Theater in Harlem with sold out performances in Los Angeles and Oakland and now extends through the fall. With nothing more than a mic, a few instruments and his stories, Siddiq instructed that everyone in the audience lock their phones away as he revisited the highlights, heartbreaks and hits that have shaped his music career from his early days with Tony, Tony, Tony to his work with Lucy Pearl and through solo albums like Instant Vintage and Jimmy Lee. Here's a cut from his 2002 autobiographical hit Still Ray, I'm coming home to you.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Wear something see through so I can see your heart for night can never come soon enough for me. I watch the sky all day, Night is where I find you and peace of mind. My days are filled with grief. That's why I truly give you what you need because you love me for me.

[Tonya Moseley]

Rafael Siddiq has also built a career writing and collaborating with some of the biggest names including Whitney Houston, Beyonce, Stevie Wonder, Solange d', Angelo, Earth, Wind and Fire, and Erykah Badu. Most recently, he co wrote the song I Lied to youo for Ryan Coogler's film Sinners, a gospel blues ballot that served as the emotional centerpiece of the film inspired by his own church roots and gospel upbringing. Rafael Siddiq, welcome to FRESH air.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Thank you. Good to be here.

[Tonya Moseley]

No phones, a one man show, several hours just you locked into the audience. Why did you want the audience to put away their phones?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Taking the phones away just made It. So I can give people the same opportunity that I had as a young, as a shorty going to the Oakland Coliseum and watching the ojs. I mean, I could see them walking up the stairs. I could see the lights on their shoes. I could see the lights on the amps. I paid attention to so much detail. Now when you. When you have phones in front of you, it's just sort of. You see people stiff and nobody's moving in the crowd.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yes.

[Raphael Siddiq]

It look. Look like it's robots, not really real people. So when there's no phones, you know, I don't know, I. I just. I like it. The testimonies. I heard people say, well, they got a chance to hug, kiss, dance with each other and things that they don't do. Like it was, you know, see earthman and fire at the show, you're singing, you know, you got your fist pumping, you dancing, you have. Your hands are free. Trying to get people a free moment. Hope they enjoyed it.

[Tonya Moseley]

You pay tribute at the concert to your brother, Dwayne Wiggins. You all co founded Tony, Tony, Tony. He passed away earlier this year. I want to offer my condolences first as a fan.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah, he was your Michael Jordan growing up. He taught you how to play instruments. You played a bunch of instruments for this tour by yourself. And he was one of those folks that was instrumental in teaching you.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yes, he was definitely inspiring the whole time. He was already killing it pretty much as a kid. You know, in the neighborhood, we live in two separate homes. You know, we have same. The same fathers, not the same mother. So we had two totally different lives when it came to what our households were like. But as far as music, he sort of showed me the way because he loved music so much. I loved it too. He definitely was the guy. Like, oh, he could play bass. Tell my dad, you know, like, you know, he could play. And if you don't buy him a bass, I'm gonna buy it for him. You know, he was that type of dude, like, always wanted to help.

[Tonya Moseley]

One thing that is so interesting about you, 14 siblings, 14 brothers and sisters.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Well, that's including my dad's family before me. So with Everybody in that 14, I'm the youngest boy.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yes.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Didn't there be a younger girl from the other side? But at my house, I was the youngest, so it was two girls and two boys, and I was the youngest in that house, but I was born late, so I was the only one in the house the whole time.

[Tonya Moseley]

You all are so well known in Oakland. Because that's where you then grew up. And one of the things that you've been doing lately, especially over the last few years, is really revealing for us even in this one man show. The beautiful moments, the things that make you who you are, but also the tragedies. Of your 14 siblings. You've lost several of them now. Is it. It's five now, including Dwayne?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, it's five now. Yeah, yeah, it's five. It's life. You know, I started seeing it from seven, seven years old. My first brother was Alvy. Alvie Wiggins. Yeah, we've lost a few, but in our neighborhood, it doesn't really. I hate to say it, it's kind of normal.

[Tonya Moseley]

It's normal, but it's something that just over the last few years you've really been sitting with and talking about publicly. This one man show, I mean, you spend a lot of time talking about those influences of your siblings who have passed away. What is it about now that you want it to be this revealing?

[Raphael Siddiq]

I've always talked about it, you know, with friends. I think for the one man show, I wanted people to know the trajectory of what? Of my life. Because, you know, the music, you. You hear the music, you hear all the pretty things and, and I wanted people to see and hear. You can still show someone a beautiful side through dark times. And it made sense to talk about it in detail because sometimes people think they know you. And I'm like, okay, you do know me. We did grow up together through music. But here's the other side.

[Tonya Moseley]

One of those examples of something that you created that was beautiful out of tragedy was the hit song that everybody knows, everyone loves from Tony, Tony, Tony. It never rains in Southern California. And I want to play a little bit of it because I was really surprised to hear that it came from a grief stricken place. Let's listen to a little.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Kiss and squeezing hugging girl, you know the rest. As they tell me ain't never any Southern California. You may tell me enough. Raised in Southern California. Maybe I'll take the flight out tonight and you can pick me up. About me I don't know what airline girl but I know it won't be leg as they tell me in Appalachian, Southern California.

[Tonya Moseley]

That's my guest today. Rafael Siddiq is part of the group tonight. Tony, Tony, Tony singing his 1990 hit, It Never Rains in Southern California. That was written around the same time you lost your sister Sarah.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, it was, it was written by Timothy Christian Riley and he brought it to me and we were Working on it in Sausalito at the time. And I got a phone call that my sister got in a car accident and she was on life support. So I actually went to the hospital and they pulled her off the machine that same time I went there and then I had to go back to the studio to finish the song and you know, so that's. That's not how it came about, but that's how it got finished.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah. I'm really struck by you saying that of all of that you've dealt with and experienced, you wanted to show people like a place of beauty that can come out of that grief stricken place. Having to get on the mic and sing this beautiful song that is. It's also pretty romantic. It is like the song that kind of folks that are in New Young Love kind of tap into. At least I did when I was that age. I think that's just really powerful. It's kind of like the hallmark of your music.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, it definitely is. It comes with a lot of influences too, you know, from different artists. You know, when you're singing a slow song, sort of this love love ballad. And this is our second album, so at this point I'm just figuring out how to sing this type of record. So you're discovering things about your voice, you're discovering things about the music, how to complete it, and you're thinking about records you heard from Jeffrey Osborne to Lionel Richie and the Commodores to Earth, Wind and Fire, Switch the Barge. I mean, you have all these different things like going through your head. All these things that you're not even sharing with the people that you're working on the song with.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah, yeah. When did you find your voice? When did you know that you could sing?

[Raphael Siddiq]

I found my voice probably a Union Baptist, this church on 71st Avenue in Oakland, California. I was asked to sing a song with all the tiny tots. Had to sing a song on Easter Sunday. And this lady named, call her Sister Nation, she was the pastor's wife. She handed me a piece of paper and said, you're singing this song on Sunday. We got a chance to rehearse it one time and then on Sunday you're singing.

[Tonya Moseley]

How old were you?

[Raphael Siddiq]

I don't know, seven?

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Raphael Siddiq]

And I was singing a song and people started responding. When I was singing the song was embarrassing that the words. It was his gospel song. It was like, you know, if I was naked without bread or meat and my friends was like in the audience crying, laughing. But when I sang it at church, people responded like, oh, oh. And I heard it, but it more or less made me more nervous, you know? Cause they kept responding like I was doing a good job. And then I didn't do it anymore. I didn't do it anymore until I played in some local bands and I was playing cover songs. I would sing the song by Mr. Mr. Called Broken Wings. I sang that, like, in the 12th grade, playing bass and singing. I'd sing Single Life by Cameo. Those were the next songs I sang. And then pretty much, I didn't like being a front guy. I didn't want to be a front guy.

[Tonya Moseley]

You didn't?

[Raphael Siddiq]

No. I was playing in a band where there was two other lead singers, and I would. Those are just two songs that I sang in the band. And when the Tony started, ended up singing Lil Walter, and the producers, Danny and Tommy, thought that I should sing more songs. And that's how I became a front guy.

[Tonya Moseley]

So it wasn't always in the plan for you to be a front guy?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Oh, never. I don't. I don't want to be a front guy. I didn't want to be a front guy at all. I wanted to play bass for people who sing really good and maybe be on a big tour. I mean, my dream would have been, like, early in my career to play for the Stones, you know, and just be gone. You know, play for some big group that does stadiums and just be gone.

[Tonya Moseley]

Which you. You actually had a chance to do that. Mick Jagger asked you to play with them on the Grammys in 2011.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah. See, Solomon Burks, he had passed away, and they recorded one of his big songs. And I think his family, Solomon Burke's family, called Mick, they're really good friends and asked him what he performed for their dad on the Grammys. And Mick thought to call me to assist him. And that was so cool because we got a chance to rehearse and play blues. He loves Harlem Wolf and Buddy Guy, Aubrey King. And he's a blues guy. So it was like the younger blues guy meeting another guy who was inspired by black people's music.

[Tonya Moseley]

That's so cool. I mean, I'm just thinking about your dream always to be able to play with a group like that. And then you had that dream fulfilled by them asking for you. What do you remember most about that experience?

[Raphael Siddiq]

I think the best thing hanging out with Mick was we both agreed, like, we had more fun at rehearsal than we did at the Grammy. Oh, really?

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, because he pulled out his harp and we played blues, you know, and my band took some solos they're like blues guys. And so it made sense for us to like, play together and really have conversations about all the. All the blues guys. I didn't get a chance to meet the Stones, actually hung out with these guys at Chess Records.

[Tonya Moseley]

I think we know we could hear the influences of all those greats from Mick. But like, to hear him tell you those stories, that's pretty special.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, it was what I expected because it would be like talking to my grandfather. The way he would say Howlin Wolf was acting. That's the way my grandfather would act. Or that's just the way some of the older men I play with. It's those characters, you know, they're gonna say what they want to say. They're gonna have a shotgun with them, you know, it was Shotgun Love, Shotgun Blues, you know. So he just confirmed it.

[Tonya Moseley]

You've always gravitated to music of previous generations. You're like an old soul, like in modern packaging. What is it about that older music that you feel like is just always.

[Raphael Siddiq]

You've tapped into it has a feeling. It has a feeling. And the late great Isaac Hayes told me there's no such thing of old school. It's either you've been to school or you didn't. Right. I was schooled music, the feeling of music doesn't change. So you want to get the feeling from way, way back. And you want to take that feeling and inject it to something new. I didn't know that I was doing that. It's just something that I got turned out on when I was a kid. You know, it's whatever you get turned out by when you're young is what you end up being, you know.

[Tonya Moseley]

What do you love about the bass in particular?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Bass made me feel big. I was so little, you know, probably 99 pounds when I was at age. Bass has had this big sound. I heard it on Motown Records like Pride and Joy by Marvin Gaye. And I didn't know what I was hearing. And later on I would find out I was listening to one of the greatest bass players of all time. All times. Who was it? James Jamerson.

[Tonya Moseley]

Mm mm. I wanna ask you about a project that you just got done completing that we've all experienced sinners. What a movie. And you co wrote the film's signature song, I Lied to youo with Ludwig Goranson. It's performed by Miles Canton. He's got like this deep, resonant voice that feels like it's come from another time. He's so young, but he's got like this really rich voice and that song that you co wrote, it really serves as this emotional centerpiece for the film. It's a pivotal moment. First off, I want to know how did that opportunity come your way?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Well, Ryan Coogler is from Oakland. I'm a huge fan of, you know, of the person that guy is. And then when this opportunity came, he called me and told me about it and told me what he was thinking about, gave me a synopsis of the film. And it was about blues and right up my alley. You know, it's my background too. And they were about to leave the New Orleans to shoot it and they gave me the story. And I'm thinking, when do you want it done? And they was like, can we do it now? So I just started playing the guitar lick and I just wrote the lyrics right there.

[Tonya Moseley]

Let's listen to a little bit of it.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Something I been wanting to tell you for a long time. It might hurt you. Hope you don't lose your mind. Well, I was just a boy about 8 years old. You threw me a Bible on that Mississippi road. See I love you, papa, you did all you could do. And they say the truth hurts so I lied to you. Yes, I lied to you. I love the cougars.

[Tonya Moseley]

That was the song I Lied to youo from the movie Sinners, which my guest today, Raphael Sadiq co wrote. Tell me about that line. They say the truth hurts so I lied to you. You wrote that, right?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, I did, yeah.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah, tell me about that line.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Well, that's a little mischievous boy line. You know, I should think about if you lied to your girlfriend and it's like you like, well, they say the truth hurts so I lied to you. I didn't want to hurt you so I just lied. I've always had that in my head, that concept of a song.

[Tonya Moseley]

Why? Why do you think?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, because I thought it would always be a great blues song to take that big voice of Miles. Yeah, Miles sounds like he's 60, right? I know he should. Young dude, like 19 or something, right? So once Ryan told me about the movie, sort of changed the words around from what I thought I could say. Because now I'm thinking about a pastor, a father, right?

[Tonya Moseley]

Because in the storyline it is Miles talking to his father, who is a pastor, right?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Not telling the truth, but he loves his dad, but he loves music. Doesn't want to hurt his dad. To say, I want to go play in this club because I still love the Lord, I still love church, but that I gotta go. Maybe I'll make it back.

[Tonya Moseley]

Is it true? I heard this, I don't know if it's true, but that you love soundtracks and scoring. Like you'll be at home watching a movie or a show and then just start for yourself to think about a soundtrack or a song that be like the score.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah. If I'm watching a movie, I'll just turn the volume completely down and I'll start scoring. Like start seeing what I would do versus what they're doing. That's how I kind of learned.

[Tonya Moseley]

Wait, can you give me some examples when you've done that?

[Raphael Siddiq]

So there's a, there's a movie. It's about, it's about this, this kid who played football in Syracuse and Jim Brown was his mentor and they had an Elvis Presley song in it at first. And they wanted this montage to happen when this kid is traveling from the east coast to the South. And when he reaches the south, there's all these black kids on the side with signs with his name. Because in the south back in the day, you could run the football all the way to the five yard line, but you couldn't punch it in for a touchdown if you're black.

[Tonya Moseley]

I didn't know that.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Right. So not in the South.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah.

[Raphael Siddiq]

So the black kids were like chanting him on. They wanted him to run through and make a touchdown. So I had to turn that down and write a song over the top of that. And that was a song called Keep Marching that was on the record. This is called the Way I see it, my 60s album. And instead of me giving the song to the film, I kept it. It's the biggest licensed song I ever had. Well, there's nothing you can do. Well, there's nothing you can say. Cause everything just ain't gonna go your way. If you're feeling kind of strange and you wanna lay it down and it's hard for you to keep your feet on solid ground. You gotta keep on, keep watching. Oh, keep. You just gotta keep on. Oh yeah. Keep marching. Keep marching on. Keep marching on. Keep, keep on. Keep watching.

[Tonya Moseley]

Our guest today is Grammy award winning musician Raphael Siddiq. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is FRESH air.

[Raphael Siddiq]

When a girl goes shine and a Risco cries and the clown is wearing no makeup. You got to get up and run. You got to get up and stride. You got to put all your pride into making it. You gotta keep moving much.

[Tonya Moseley]

The House of Representatives has approved a White House request to claw back two years of previously approved funding for public media. The rescissions package now moves on to the Senate. This move poses a serious threat to local stations and public media as we know it. Please take a stand for public media [e-mail] thank you.

[Raphael Siddiq]

This is Eric Glass on this American Life.

[Tonya Moseley]

Sometimes we just show up somewhere, turn.

[Raphael Siddiq]

On our tape recorders and see what happens. If you can't get seven cars in 12 days, you gotta look yourself in the mirror and say, holy. What, are you kidding me?

[Tonya Moseley]

This car dealership trying to sell its.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Monthly quota of cars and it is not going well. I just don't want one balloon to a car. Balloon the whole freaking place so it looks like a circus. Real life stories every week.

[Tonya Moseley]

Hi, this is Molly Sievi Nesberg, digital producer at FRESH air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter, and I'm a newsletter fan.

[Raphael Siddiq]

I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks the timely.

[Tonya Moseley]

Highlights from the archive. It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week. An exclusive. So [e-mail] fresh air and look for.

[Raphael Siddiq]

An email from Molly every Saturday morning.

[Tonya Moseley]

I want to talk to you just a little bit about your process and writing songs for other people, too. Beyonce's album Cowboy Carter won best country album and album of the year at the Grammys. And you produced and wrote two of the songs, 16 carriages and bodyguard. Congratulations.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Thank you. You know, working with Ms. Beyonce is I know what hard work is, and I respect people that work hard. You know, you don't even have to be around them to know. You could just look at the production amount of work they put into a show or when they come out with music or whatever. But being in the room and working with people, you really get to see, like, how hard they work.

[Tonya Moseley]

I've heard you say you don't remember the experience, but one thing you do remember is that you guys had a lot of fun.

[Raphael Siddiq]

The good time is you're around a lot of great people, a lot of great thinkers. Everybody's a thinker in the room. It's sort of like I was at my studio for a lot of it on my own, but sometime I went to the studio where it was like five or six rooms and different people working in different studios. And you can go grab, you know, the dream out of a room, which is an amazing songwriter, producer, any musician is uncalled. I would just dream up like, call this guy, call this guy and that's how Quincy Jones would do it. You got to be able to have that book, that black book, to call the right musicians. And that's why music suffers. To me now, you're not making a phone call so everything sound the same. You're not giving different energy, different spirits, different personalities. On music, you need different personalities. It's not about you, it's about everybody else. And then you. That's what made great records. And that's what the fun thing about Beyonce's record was.

[Tonya Moseley]

This particular song, Bodyguard, though, you presented that to Beyonce, but that wasn't necessarily the song she can choose. And she chose that of yours.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, that song. I was going through my Dropbox and I was playing songs in a room with her. She was in the room. Jay Z was in the room. Jay and a few. Some of the staff. And I was looking for song. I don't think. I don't think the phone was even hooked up to the speakers. And I played and I stopped it real quick because that's not the song I wanted to play. And I didn't think it was something she even like. But she caught it in like two seconds. She goes, what? What's that? And I'm going, oh, that's just this idea that I had. And I played it and she liked. She's like, what are you doing with it? And that's how it got on the record.

[Tonya Moseley]

I want to play a little bit of Bodyguard. And it actually is at the point where there's like this solo guitar. Let's listen. That was Beyonce singing her award winning song, Bodyguard, written by my guest today, Raphael Siddiq. That guitar at the end, that was also not planned. Right. Is that you?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, that's me. Yeah. She wanted a solo. B wanted a solo. And I did a solo. And she was like, can we make it longer? You never hear that from an artist in 2025 playing a guitar solo. They want it longer. But she knows her audience and she knows that is rare. And she's. I think we could do that. We can, we can. We can have a 16 bar solo on this record. So that was a little bit of pressure to go back in there and play like a 16 bar solo. Yeah. Because I would have called my boy. I would have called Eric Gills, who is Eric Gales. Eric Gales is one of the most amazing guitar players in the world today. It's from Memphis Delta Blues. He was the guy that's playing. He played a lot of guitar and centers, but I would have called him to play. But he was on tour, so I had to play it, and it came out good.

[Tonya Moseley]

I love how I had to play it.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Had to play it.

[Tonya Moseley]

You had to.

[Raphael Siddiq]

I like spreading. I like spreading it around.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah. I think that, like, something about that. About Beyonce choosing that song where you mistakenly played it, but then you're like, oh. And she says, no. What is that? I've heard you say both she and Solange, because you wrote Cranes in the sky for a seat at the Table, her album, that they make choices like that. It's sort of like the mark of a great musician is to go outside the box, the places that aren't safe. It just made me very interested to know more about how you write these songs. Many, many times. They're for yourself. And then many years later, you might present them to an artist like Beyonce or Solange. You can tell about just how brave they are and how far they're gonna go with it based on the choices they make on your self.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I don't know. I guess it's in the water. In Houston, that family, both of them are, like, really particular about what they like as far as design, style, you know, staging, and, you know, what you can pull off. And it's not a lot of artists that take those chances. They take chances. And music is about taking chances, taking risks lasting longer than your teacher or your executives or labels or anything like that. You know, for me, it's like, what chance are you going to take? If you're. If you're. If you're playing music, you have to be. You have to dare to suck. And a lot of people don't, don't do that. I don't. I don't fault people that don't do that. But when you run into people that do, you have to know, like, I'm going to try myself. I'm going to try to not be different. I'm going to try to do something that I like first and second. Secondly, I hope it's the audience that likes it also. But first, I have to like it.

[Tonya Moseley]

Have you always been like that for yourself as an artist? Dare to suck.

[Raphael Siddiq]

I've always been like that. I didn't know what I was doing, so I had to find the words later on through different people. You know, dare to suck came from this acting coach that I was working with one time, and she's like, you gotta dare to suck. And I'm like, wow, that's a. That's pretty good. Because I did suck at acting. So it was like, so that's A good point. I just took that and ran with that. Then I realized in music, I did that a lot because, you know, you're not. You're not always going to be good acting. Well, I took acting class because it wasn't for acting, it was for stage. I just wanted to get a little bit past myself, you know, I didn't want to be always thinking I was this artist, Rafael Sadiq. It's like, no. I wanted to get out that shell and just, you know, walk in a room with people where I wasn't good and where we have these, these different drills that we do that I was gonna be pretty embarrassed to do them in front of people or read a monologue and. And there was better people in the class, you know, way better than me. That was killing it. And I had to stand up in front of this class. I was like, wow. They're like, we have like five minutes to learn this piece and you gotta read it in front of people. They're gonna film you and then the class is gonna watch it back and critique you. That was the worst thing I ever heard in my life. And I did it, you know, I did suck, but I did it, you know.

[Tonya Moseley]

Is there a particular lesson from that that stuck with you that you use on stage now as just a part of your act?

[Raphael Siddiq]

What I learned from it is, you know, you have to and, you know, take it all in. Especially it really came to to be a great part for my one man show because it's just. It's just me and I have to walk out to an audience where I'm not, you know, you don't hear drum roll in the beginning. It's just me. I open it up, I say something to the audience, and they're used to me coming out, you know. You know, it's not that. This is something else. And so I think, you know, I really like good acting. I'm a huge fan of like most Def. Jeffrey Wright, Mr. Cheadle, Don Cheadle Don, who takes that craft really serious.

[Tonya Moseley]

So, like you do with music like.

[Raphael Siddiq]

I do with music. Denzel, you know, I used to see like Denzel like every other few days. We used to work out the same boxing gym. And he's just so cool, so solid.

[Tonya Moseley]

Boxing.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah.

[Tonya Moseley]

You're a big boxer?

[Raphael Siddiq]

No, no, I'm not a big boxer. No, I love boxing. I did train boxing, but I trained it to, to be in, to be in shape. I did spar a little bit, you know, but I was too old already to begin to hit my Head.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah.

[Raphael Siddiq]

And it's no way not to get hit in your head. But what boxing does for you, it just gives you, you don't really fight, you know, you're not out there fighting all the time. So you just need to know how to use your hands. My dad was a boxer. You know, somebody walk up on, you just got to know you can give them, you know, a two piece and a biscuit. You're not gonna be running, you know, if you can hit in your face, you're not gonna like, stop fighting.

[Tonya Moseley]

Right. When did you learn that?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Oh, I come from a fighting family. Yeah, you know, Yeah, I come from a fighting family. Like fighting neighbors, you know, but all in fun, you know. So I opened up a boxing gym in Modesto, California with my nephew Alvy Wiggins called Charlie Ray Boxing. And it was more to get kids off the street, giving them a place to go to, to be, you know, educate them about, you know, school and also how to use their hands and how to commit to something. And so it's over like 30, 30, 40 kids, they go there and they train, they box and they go, they get out of school, they do their homework and then they have a place to go talk to adults. And this one kid used to be scared to walk home because people bothered him. He joined the gym and two months later, you want to ride home? He was like, no, I got this. I'm walking home. Wow, he's ready.

[Tonya Moseley]

If you're just joining us, my guest is Rafael Siddiq, a Grammy Award winning musician, producer and founding member of Tony, Tony, Tony. He's worked with artists like Whitney Houston, Beyonce, Stevie Wonder and Solange, and recently co wrote the song I Lied to youo for Ryan Coogler's new film Sinners. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH air.

[Raphael Siddiq]

You know those things you shout at the radio or maybe even at this very NPR podcast on NPR's Wait, Wait, don't tell me we actually say those things on the radio and on the podcast. We're rude across all media.

[Tonya Moseley]

We think the news can take it.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, don't tell me. Wherever you get your podcasts at Planet Money, we know that economic jargon can sometimes feel like speaking another language.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah, like Arbitrage, Alpha, Otarchy.

[Raphael Siddiq]

That's just what's in the news these days. There's also absolute advantage.

[Tonya Moseley]

Aggregate demand, aggregate supply. And this is just the A's.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Oh, animal spirits.

[Tonya Moseley]

That's a pretty good one. Planet Money from npr. We Help you translate the economy so you can understand the world. Wherever you get your podcasts, you're listening.

[Raphael Siddiq]

To NPR because you're curious. You want to know what the world is like beyond the surface. NPR feeds that curiosity with stories from real people, with real experiences and all the perspectives that come with them. It's our right to be curious and our prerogative to listen. So keep your curiosity alive. Hear the bigger picture every day on npr.

[Tonya Moseley]

Rafael Siddiq. That's not your birth name. How did you come up with that name?

[Raphael Siddiq]

My birth name is Charlie Ray. Charlie Ray Wiggins. I came up with the name because I had a friend named Michael Ashberry who passed now from Arizona. He moved to Oakland, and we both worked at United Parcels. And on our. When we get off, we work from 11 to 1. We get off work and we would go to a mall or something. He would tell girls his name was Raphael and my name was Hostin. I'm like, why do you lie to people? He was like, I don't want to tell people my name. I'm like, you sell drugs or something? What's going on? And he's like, no, I just don't want to do that. So I told him, well, I look more like a Raphael, and you look more like a Halston. And so I got an audition for Sheila E. And her sister Xena was signing everybody up, and Zena didn't look at me. When she asked me my name, she goes, name, please. And I thought it was kind of rude, so I just said, rafael. And I got the gig. And I never changed the name.

[Tonya Moseley]

Sadiq Siddiq.

[Raphael Siddiq]

I just found Rafael Siddiq in this just black bookstore and this Arabic book. And I just looked up names, and I saw Siddiq. It means man of his word. I like the word. I love how Tupac's name used to sound in film, like Tupac Shakur, you know, I was like, yeah, I like Raphael Sadiq. Sadiq. Like, yeah, got a ring to it. And I used it. I went to the courthouse, swore it in Bow. I talked to my dad first. He said he was fine with it. I changed it. And that summer, I went to New York and the wu Tang clan. Mr. Yu Got Wu Tang, had a little rhyme in his record. Like, it said, I want a super freak physique like Ralph yesterday, right? Yeah. So that was like, maybe four months after I changed it. So I was like, oh, it worked as an artist, as a front person, and I ended up using it in. That's how I got the Name for.

[Tonya Moseley]

The youngins who don't know. How did the name Tony, Tony, Tony come about?

[Raphael Siddiq]

How the name Tony, Tony, Tony came about was we. My brother used to have this really wavy hair. Dwayne. No. We were watching the movie Untouchables. Andy Garcia, his name was Tony. And so he had that sort of hair, too. And so we took Andy. Andy Garcia's Tony name. And my brother said, man, my hair looks so good. On the first day of school, my teacher will call me Tony, Tony, Tony. And we played at this wedding reception. We didn't have a record out. The guy said, what's the name of the group? Where we were standing there? And I think my brother said, tony, Tony, Tony. Like, joking. And when they said, ladies and gentlemen, ooh, Ooh. Wow, that's. But if you're Italian, you know, when we tell people that's Italian, they go like, yeah, Tony, Tony, Tony.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yes.

[Raphael Siddiq]

So that's how we got the name. And it ended up, you know, haunting us. Because people like friends that you knew from back in the day, when they see you, they forget your name and they call you Tony. Right. I think I came home one day after some tour. My mother was like, hey, Tony, not Mama. My mom called me Tony before. Back in the day, I was like, wow, damn, you too? Yeah.

[Tonya Moseley]

All right. Raphael, you brought a friend with you.

[Raphael Siddiq]

I did. This is my limited edition Fender Telecaster. Fender was so nice to let me design my own guitar. It's. It's based around my instant vintage album cover. So the little outfit I wore. This is sort of the print.

[Tonya Moseley]

Oh, the print is there. That paisley line? Yeah. I mean, you say it's so nice that they allowed you to do it, but it's an honor. It's a limited series.

[Raphael Siddiq]

No, it's definitely honored. But I'm a bass player first. Yeah, so. So most of my friends who play guitar, you know, we joke around, like, how in the hell you get a guitar? And I'm like, you definitely deserve it more than me. But I like it because it's. As a bass player, I need, like, this body to be against me, and this feels good against my body. And it's. It has that. That.

[Tonya Moseley]

What is that? When you say it has that. What is that?

[Raphael Siddiq]

It has that. It has that bite to it. It just bites. And so when you're writing on it, it just gives me that. It gives me that information to just keep, you know, going forward. And I know the bass is coming next.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah.

[Raphael Siddiq]

But I love this stripe on the neck. And, like, when I Was a kid when I would see a guitar with this on the back of it, which was Fender.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah. That's a signature offender.

[Raphael Siddiq]

That's a signature offender.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah. Tell me about the design process, how you. How you came to design it. Make these choices that you make. Yeah. And describe what it looks like. Because we've got cameras, but there are also people who are going to be just hearing it.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Well, I just really took the artwork from Insta Vintage and I wanted that color and I wanted this pig. It's called a pig guard. This is where you. Yeah, this. It's like this pretty pick guard. I wanted that. I wanted this black stripe around the trims. I wanted this to feel like a car, like an old school car. Like, you know, we have like candy. A candy colored Mustang 67 Mustang or.

[Tonya Moseley]

Cougar driving down Telegraph.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Driving down Telegraph. But I wanted the headstock to be black and gold. And I think that I just really wanted to make sure that has this really like Tony Maiden sound with this is like shot Rufus and Chaka Khan, you know, like, what's that? It had. I wanted that bite. And Tony Maiden is like a hero of mine who plays guitar, who play all those records on Rufus and Chaka Khan. And I think he was my main inspiration behind the sound of the guitar.

[Tonya Moseley]

You know, there's like an energy shift from you when you pick up that guitar.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, of course. Yeah. I'm at home when I pick up the guitar. Any instrument. This is when you like, you know, a kid and you find something that you love and. And you know, you love. I mean, musicians don't want to say, but you love this more than you love your girl. You have to reel it in. After a while you go, okay, the instrument is second and the girl is first. But you know.

[Tonya Moseley]

My guest is Rafael Siddiq, Grammy winning musician, producer and founding member of Tony, Tony, Tony. We'll be back after a break. This is Fresh air. Recycling can feel like a lost cause. But one college student started a grassroots efforts to turn beer bottles sand for eroding beaches.

[Raphael Siddiq]

We have some music bump in and like some people are sorting. There's one person crushing and the rest of us are like hand sifting the material. Now you can come up with creative.

[Tonya Moseley]

Ideas by taking a second look. Double takes. That's on the TED Radio hour podcast from npr. This message comes from dsw. Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're from dsw because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now. You know, like the Sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off the many sides of you, from daydreamer to multitasker, and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com hey, everybody, it's Ian from How to Do Everything. On our show, we attempt to answer your how to questions. We don't know how to do anything, so we call experts.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Last season, both Tom Hanks and Martha.

[Tonya Moseley]

Stewart stopped by to help.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Our next season is launching in just.

[Tonya Moseley]

A few months, so get us your.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Questions now by emailing howtopr.org or calling 1-800-424-2935.

[Tonya Moseley]

Sly Stone, I want to talk to you a little bit about him. Legendary musician, just passed away, was a big influence on you. Is it true that Sly Stone father was your pastor?

[Raphael Siddiq]

No, he wasn't. He wasn't my pastor, but we were in the same church district. It's called Kojik Church of God in Christ. And his dad was a part of that network. And he visited the church that I went to, and he preached, preached at this church. And I think I was playing drums, and Timothy Riley was on Oregon, and Sly's dad was in the pulpit preaching. And we're having this conversation while he preaching, like, that's Sly's dad. That's Sly's dad, Sylvester.

[Tonya Moseley]

That's the OG Sylvester.

[Raphael Siddiq]

That's the OG Sylvester. And he just looked, he just stopped preaching and looked over at us and just said, if you ever get out there in the world, you know, be careful. Just be careful.

[Tonya Moseley]

That was his advice to you?

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah. I mean, right on the microphone in front of the church.

[Tonya Moseley]

How did you interpret what he was saying to you?

[Raphael Siddiq]

I knew exactly what he was talking about. He was saying, you know, it's just, it's a lot out there, but be careful. There's drugs out there, a lot of temptation, a lot of things that can get you into a place where you don't want to be. And then his father was saying, don't be like Sly in a, in a preacher type of way. But every preacher was like that, you know, but besides the. I don't even want to say goat. That's. That don't even. That doesn't even do it.

[Tonya Moseley]

Do him justice.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Him justice. He was definitely inspiration for everybody, all teach. He, he was like Steph Curry. He changed the game of music completely. And I know that because I talked to the late Great Maurice White. And we hung out a lot. And he, I said, so, man, who are you trying to, what was, what was your inspiration? He said, man, you know what? I was really just trying to be like the, from the, you know, the boys up your way. I'm like, cool Sly. Then I was listening, when I listened to Earth and Fire, I could hear it, how his inflections on his word, some of the words he used and how he sings. And then I start thinking everybody was really trying to be like Sly. He's an amazing songwriter. He's amazing piano player, organ player. And, and he was smart, brilliant, intelligent. You know, he, he was an intellectual guy. He, he understood theory, even though he just got, he had the God given gift.

[Tonya Moseley]

Yeah, it like permeates just like his influence. It seems like.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Yeah, he's man, when you go listen to like in time and have fun in the summertime. And I mean, anything that he did, I don't even think he needed a band most of the time. I would have loved to hear him just sing and play. That voice is like, yeah, I felt like he sounded a lot like Ray Charles. Yeah, I feel like he was inspired by Ray Charles a lot.

[Tonya Moseley]

Stone rolling. That song of yours, was that a tribute to him? Is that.

[Raphael Siddiq]

No, that's a trip to a. More like Memphis, Memphis, Memphis soul or Memphis, Memphis Soul? Like, definitely. Yeah, that's the Stax records, Otis Red and Al Green. Those boys, nobody did it like them. You know, the first lyric, you know, fat lady shaking, backbone breaking, you know, that's a blues line. But that record, there were songs I did that sound like Honey Yard Dash was like more of a slide thing or a heart attack. You're giving me a heart attack. That was definitely, that was definitely a sly thing. 100%, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tonya Moseley]

Well, Rafael Siddiq, this has been such a pleasure.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Thank you.

[Tonya Moseley]

Rafael Siddiq is a Grammy Award winning musician and producer. His one man show, no Bandwidth, One Man, One Night. Three decades of hits will continue touring the country this fall. Tomorrow on Fresh air, author and poet Layla Motley. She earned critical acclaim a few years ago at just 19 for her new York Times best selling debut novel, Night Crawling. Now she's back with a new novel that follows three young women as they navigate what it means to be a mother today when reproductive rights are being rolled back across the country. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram at nprfreshair. Our interviews and Reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Meyers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CB Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show with Terry Gross. I'm Tanya Moseley.

[Raphael Siddiq]

What would you think if you saw.

[Tonya Moseley]

A robot dog out for a walk in your neighborhood? What the hell is that? Oh my God.

[Raphael Siddiq]

This is Basha just hanging out with us.

[Tonya Moseley]

So could they have a medium, double takes and how they can change your point of view? That's on the TED Radio Hour podcast from npr. Here on the Indicator from Planet Money, we fanned out across the country to ask how you are feeling about the 2025 economy.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Anxious. Uncertain? Unfair?

[Tonya Moseley]

Turbulent.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Crazy.

[Tonya Moseley]

We don't just recite the headlines, we show you how the economy is affecting your life. In 10 minutes or less each weekday, listen to the Indicator from Planet Money wherever you get your podcasts. Squid Game is Netflix's most popular show.

[Raphael Siddiq]

Of all time and it just wrapped up its final season and we're here to help you unpack that bloody finale.

[Tonya Moseley]

Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour on.

[Raphael Siddiq]

The NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.