Loading summary
Transcript202 lines
- [00:01]
Announcer
This message comes from Intuit. TurboTax with TurboTax Expert. Full service match with a dedicated expert who will do your taxes for you from start to finish, getting you every dollar you deserve. It's that easy. Visit turbotax.com to match with an expert today.
- [00:18]
Dave Davies
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Chuck Norris, the martial arts champion turned Hollywood action hero, died last week. He was 86. Norris broke into movies with a cinematic fight to the death against kung fu master Bruce Lee in Return of the Dragon. Norris first learned karate in Korea while serving in the Air Force. Back in California, he kept at it and became the world middleweight karate champion, a title he held for six years. He also set up karate academies where he taught several Hollywood celebrities. One of his students, Steve McQueen, encouraged him to pursue a career in acting. Norris went on to make a dozen kung fu films and became a martial arts cult hero. Then he diversified to become an all around tough guy action star. His films include Code of Silence, Invasion, USA Delta Force, Missing in Action, Parts 1 and 2, and Braddock, Missing in Action, Part 3. From 1993 to 2001, he starred in the TV series Walker, Texas Ranger, playing a lawman you don't want to mess with. Here he is confronting a couple of bad guys, ninja.
- [01:27]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Walker, I am so sorry about the
- [01:30]
Chuck Norris
tragic death of your partner. Sure you are. I know you're the one that arranged the hit and I know you're the one that pulled the trigger.
- [01:42]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
I assume you have proof.
- [01:44]
Chuck Norris
If I had proof, you'd be dead right now. But I'm gonna take you down and I'm gonna take you down hard. You want me, Walker?
- [01:54]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Hey, you got me.
- [01:55]
Chuck Norris
Just name the time and place. You got the guts.
- [02:01]
Dave Davies
Chuck Norris also wrote an autobiography titled the Secret of Inner Strength. We're going to listen to Terry's 1988 interview with him. She asked him to describe the kind of karate he learned while stationed in Korea.
- [02:15]
Chuck Norris
Well, at that time it was called Tang Soo Do. Today it's more prominently known as taekwondo, which is an emphasis on kicking.
- [02:24]
Terry Gross
Okay. Now you taught karate in America, won many karate championships. Bruce Lee got you your first film roles. Did you already want to break into acting when you met Bruce Lee?
- [02:37]
Chuck Norris
No, not at all. When I did the film with Bruce, I had no desire to be an actor. I was still in the karate business and still competing. And I did Return of the Dragon strictly as a kick,
- [02:52]
Terry Gross
no pun intended.
- [02:53]
Chuck Norris
Right.
- [02:54]
Terry Gross
Well, that was in 1972. Would you describe the fight scene that you were in in Return of the
- [02:59]
Chuck Norris
Dragon well, when, of course, the fight scene is to the death in the Colosseum in Rome. About basically like two gladiators pitting their skills against each other. And it was very exciting, you know, to be in the Colosseum in Rome and. And just look out into the arena there and think that a few hundred years ago they were doing it for real. So it was quite exciting, actually.
- [03:24]
Terry Gross
You both choreographed the scene together, right? Yushaf and Bruce Lee?
- [03:27]
Chuck Norris
Yeah, we'd worked out together for about three years prior to this. And so when we decided to do the film, the fight itself, he said, well, what do you want to do? And I said, well, I'll do this, this and this. So we just kind of choreographed it right there on the set.
- [03:40]
Terry Gross
Now, you did Korean karate, taekwondo, and he was a Chinese form of karate, kung fu. Were there any differences in style that you had to reconcile before getting the choreography together?
- [03:49]
Chuck Norris
No, not at all. Because we'd both studied many other styles as well. And I'd studied the Chinese and, you know, with Bruce and the Japanese style. So I was really a conglomeration of several styles. And so was Bruce Lee. Bruce didn't stick strictly to the Chinese styles. He'd studied many different styles. So there was a, you know, there was real good chance, you know, Bill and Davos working together.
- [04:12]
Terry Gross
Now in the scene, I imagine that you didn't really hit each other hard. I mean, what are the rules there when you're choreographing a fight scene for the movie? How did you do it in 1972?
- [04:22]
Chuck Norris
Well, we, you know, of course, we didn't go to hurt each other. There's light contact, but just as we would make contact, we would, you know, pull the blow right at the point of contact rather than following through with it, you know, so we could finish the fight.
- [04:34]
Terry Gross
Is that something you're used to from sparring?
- [04:36]
Chuck Norris
Yeah, you learn to control your kicks. And especially from my movies, you know, I have to learn to do that in my films to keep from hurting the stuntmen.
- [04:45]
Terry Gross
Did you enjoy kung fu movies at the time?
- [04:47]
Chuck Norris
Did you see a lot of them in the beginning? I did, but they became redundant. They were all the same. You know, when you have a movie that just has fight from beginning to end and there's no story or no emotion involved, it becomes redundant and it gets boring after a few minutes of watching. Kick, kick, kick, punch, punch. And so it's important. I think that's why they died out. That's why there's no longer those kind of films in the American market is the fact that after a while you get bored of them. That's why I didn't want to do those kind of films.
- [05:18]
Terry Gross
But early on, didn't you want to convince Hollywood that you would be a good star for kung fu type American vehicles?
- [05:25]
Chuck Norris
In the beginning, of course, when I was trying to break through into the film business, you know, when Bruce Lee died, the karate market or the kung fu market and movies died with him, all producers thought, well, since Bruce died, there was no one else that could fulfill that bill. And so when I finally broke in, in 77, you know, I was known as the kung fu star in Hollywood or in the media. But I knew that if I was stuck strictly as a kung fu star, that my career would be very limited and I never, you know, wouldn't be able to grow. So I started working more into the action orientation of my films with, you know, martial arts or karate integrated into the action. And that way I wouldn't be limited to being strictly a kung fu star. And that's what's worked for me.
- [06:16]
Terry Gross
What was. What were some of the things that you had to learn in order to broaden into more general action films?
- [06:23]
Chuck Norris
Learning how to act was the main thing. Remember, I jumped into the films with absolutely no experience as an actor, had very little acting classes and so forth. So I had to kind of learn on the job, and it wasn't easy to do that.
- [06:39]
Terry Gross
Well, Steve McQueen, who was a friend of yours and whose son studied at your karate school, gave you some advice on acting. He told you not to verbalize what's already on the screen. It almost seems like that became a code for you. I mean, you're really known in your movies as not saying a lot.
- [06:54]
Chuck Norris
Most of your actions. Actor, Stallone, Schwarzenegger, I think all of us kind of stick to that mode. Is that when there's something to say, say it. If it isn't important, then keep your mouth shut. And whether that's right or wrong is up to debate. But the thing is that we're not Dustin Hoffman, who's got that ability to express in words, because he can express in words and you can visualize them. But not many actors have that ability to verbally express himself. And you can, in your mind, see what he's saying. And so the thing is, if you can show it on the screen visually rather than verbally, it's much better.
- [07:35]
Terry Gross
Let's talk about stunts some more now. Do you always do your own stunts?
- [07:39]
Chuck Norris
Not all of them. Some I don't do. If this is Way out of my range of ability. Then of course I won't do it. I don't do fire burns, which is really extremely dangerous.
- [07:50]
Terry Gross
That's what, like you're walking through an exploded bomb or something, right.
- [07:53]
Chuck Norris
Or catching on fire.
- [07:54]
Terry Gross
Uh huh.
- [07:55]
Chuck Norris
And things like that I wouldn't want to do. There's just certain things or high dives and I'm not a high diver, so I have to have a stunt double do that. But anything that requires balance or coordination or a certain amount of strength, then I can do that.
- [08:10]
Terry Gross
Well, I remember in Code of Silence there's a great scene in which you're fighting with someone on top of a New York City train.
- [08:16]
Chuck Norris
Yeah, I did that.
- [08:17]
Terry Gross
And the train is moving. That's you. That wasn't a stuntman.
- [08:19]
Chuck Norris
No, no, I did.
- [08:21]
Terry Gross
Now the train was actually moving while you were doing that, wasn't it?
- [08:23]
Chuck Norris
It was doing about 35 miles an hour, in fact. You know, the thing is, the stuntman that I was fighting with was a little bit apprehensive about me doing that because we were relying on each other to keep our balance on that train. Because we're 50ft in the air. That's an L train. We're 50ft in the air. And he said, I don't know if you should do this or not. I said, well, look, let's do it with the train stopped. If you feel I'm not capable of doing it, then we'll bring in a stunt double. So we did it with a train stop. And he said, no, no, he says, you'll do okay. So I did the fight with him.
- [08:53]
Terry Gross
Do you carry any kind of insurance?
- [08:56]
Chuck Norris
Well, of course, the studio gets very upset when I do that because if I do get hurt, then production stops and it costs a lot of money. But the audience today is very sophisticated. They look, they look to see if it's a stunt double or if it's the stuntman or it's the actor doing it. And so if it's something that I can do, then I like to do it. Especially when you do an acting scene, you really don't know if it's good or bad until it gets on the screen. But when you do a stunt, you know immediately whether it's good or bad. And there's an immediate, you know, exhilaration when you do a stunt that you don't get as an acting scene.
- [09:35]
Terry Gross
I want to get back to this fight scene in Code of Silence on top of the train. How did you and the stuntman that you were working with keep Your balance while the train was moving, what were some of the tricks to doing that?
- [09:47]
Chuck Norris
Well, the tricks are just having the ability to maintain your balance up there. It's, you know, we had the fight prearranged, of course, but we're rolling all over the top of that train, and we're really controlling each other. You know, we're preventing each other from falling off, so we're really balancing each other as we're fighting on top of that train. And it just, you know, either you have the athletic ability to do it, or you don't have it.
- [10:08]
Terry Gross
Now, as you're actually holding onto each other and trying to help each other keep balance, you have to look as if you're fighting each other and trying to throw each other off the top of the train. Can you talk a little bit about how you kind of make it seem like you're trying to throw the person off the train while you're really hanging on to them?
- [10:27]
Chuck Norris
It's kind of a hard thing to describe, you know, because you're up there and you're just, you know, you're just doing the thing as strong as you can without losing your balance. And a couple times, you know, I broke my balance once, but he controlled it for me, and then he broke his balance once, and I brought him back on balance. And it's just a matter of being able to have the experience and the ability to be able to do that.
- [10:52]
Terry Gross
Okay, let's look at fight scenes for a second. When you're choreographing a fight scene where you'll be using martial arts, are there certain things that you think have to get into the scene, like a certain number of. Of kicks or certain number, you know, a certain amount of, like, really dazzling stuff?
- [11:09]
Chuck Norris
No, the main thing, when I try to. When I do a fight scene, I try to make it as real as possible. You know, the thing is that If I'm fighting two guys is one thing. If I'm fighting four, like in Code of Science, I fought, what, 12 or 14, and I got the daylight speed out of me. You know, I didn't. I didn't win because it would have been totally unrealistic for me to whip that whole bar room. And so, in turn, you know, I wound up losing that fight. But that's the realism of it. If I'd have whipped everybody in that bar room, it would have been totally unrealistic. No matter how good you are as a martial artist, you only have so much ability. And so, in turn, I wound up losing that particular fight. But I tried to make it as exciting, as dramatic as I could before I got whipped.
- [11:50]
Terry Gross
You have a kind of spin kick that you do.
- [11:52]
Chuck Norris
Yeah. Spinning heel kick. Yeah.
- [11:54]
Terry Gross
Would you describe that, what that is for listeners who haven't seen it?
- [11:57]
Chuck Norris
It's like having a baseball bat in your hand and swinging like a batter would swing at a ball. But you torque your whole body around in a full circle and your leg swings around like a bat would. And it's extremely powerful kick. And I have to be. When I do that in my fight scenes, I gotta be very, very careful because if I hit one of my stuntmen with that, it would cause real serious damage.
- [12:20]
Terry Gross
In your autobiography, you talk about having to break the pain barrier in karate. And you've had a lot of broken bones during your years as a karate teacher and as a karate student. Broken hands, broken noses. So what do you mean when you say breaking the pain barrier?
- [12:39]
Chuck Norris
Well, you're able to eliminate and really ignore the pain. It's something you practice and train, and you get to a point where you're able to really ignore the pain.
- [12:51]
Terry Gross
Is this something you've had to practice as a stuntman, too, you know, in your role as doing your own stunts?
- [12:56]
Chuck Norris
Oh, yeah. That still doesn't mean I like pain, because I don't like pain. I'd prefer not to be hurt than being hurt. But the thing is, like in Firewalker, I did. I broke my ankle in the second week in the filming. So I had to go eight weeks with a broken ankle. And I couldn't put a cast on because I was still filming. So I had to keep it taped through the whole movie. So it was painful. But you learn to work with it.
- [13:19]
Terry Gross
Other times when a stunt has gone wrong, when someone who you were fighting with actually connected instead of almost connected, or when someone fell off something that they were.
- [13:29]
Chuck Norris
Well, my poor brother has taken a tremendous beating. I've knocked him out twice. I broke his leg once. And so he's taken the worst beating of all the stuntmen I've worked with, because I work with him so much that sometimes we get carried away a lot of times. And I try to. Either I try to get too close to him or he tries to get too close when I'm kicking at him. And so, in turn, we've made a little bit of contact, and he's had his injuries from our fights together.
- [13:56]
Terry Gross
Chuck Norris is my guest. I recently saw your new movie, Missing in Action Part three, Braddock. And, you know, it's interesting, you're without a shirt during A good deal of the movie. And I wonder if that's intentional, you know, to show off all the muscles.
- [14:12]
Chuck Norris
No, not really, because I'm not an Arnold Schwarzenegger. But, you know, in the torture scene that you saw, you know, it was conducive to not have the shirt on.
- [14:22]
Terry Gross
But conducive to what?
- [14:23]
Chuck Norris
Well, you know, because I'm being electrocuted and all this stuff here, you know, so, you know, they had, you know, have to be able to see the reaction of my body being electrocuted.
- [14:32]
Terry Gross
Can I tell you my reaction to that scene?
- [14:34]
Chuck Norris
Sure.
- [14:35]
Terry Gross
Well, just to describe it, you're being tortured by South Vietnamese, right?
- [14:41]
Chuck Norris
North Vietnamese. North Vietnamese, yeah. Now, he's from Saigon. Yeah.
- [14:46]
Terry Gross
Okay. And they've kidnapped your son. So you're being tortured in this cell. You're suspended by your hands. Your hands are tied over your head and you're standing on your toes. Now, your son is in bondage in a chair in front of you and there's a gun pointed at him. And the torturer tells you that if you step down, you know, you're on your toes, but if you. If your heels touch the ground and your arms lower about an inch, that this gun is gonna go off.
- [15:14]
Chuck Norris
Shotgun. Yes.
- [15:15]
Terry Gross
Yeah. And. And shoot your son. Now, seeing you kind of writhing up there with all your muscles exposed it struck me as almost a sexual bondage scene.
- [15:25]
Chuck Norris
Well, is that good or bad? I don't know.
- [15:27]
Terry Gross
I'm not trying to put any value on it. It just struck me, and I was wondering if that was. Was it conscious or not?
- [15:32]
Chuck Norris
No, not with me. It wasn't conscious. No. I didn't see it as that. But maybe the women might. I don't know.
- [15:42]
Terry Gross
Or some men might. I don't know.
- [15:43]
Chuck Norris
I don't know, really, because I don't see myself as that way. But it's interesting you thought that way. But the thing is, what we were trying to show the mental torture as well. Because here he is trying to force my feet down so the shotgun will go off and kill my son. So it was the tension and the mental torture that was going on as much as the physical torture, because it doesn't work out that way.
- [16:14]
Terry Gross
A lot of adults in America, especially parents of children, get very upset at certain action movies in which there's a lot of violence depicted. Now, I understand that you actually get more upset by movies that are sexually explicit.
- [16:27]
Chuck Norris
Well, the thing is, when we talk about violence, again, it's how you do it. If you provoke violence on the screen, if it's A provocation of violence on the screen, then I don't think it's done in a very negative way. What I try my films are kind of a retaliation against violence. And I don't see that as a bad thing for children to see. And I kind of have that reputation, I think, with the audiences, with the families throughout the country, that they don't mind their children coming to see my movies because it's action oriented, but not. But there's no extreme language and there's no strong sexual scenes in the movie. And I think most families are more concerned about that than they are the action sequences in the movies.
- [17:14]
Terry Gross
Well, there's a scene in the movie, and this is part of the commercial that is being shown on television to advertise the movie. You're basically told by the CIA not to go into Vietnam and don't, don't step on any toes there. And you say, I don't step on toes, I step on necks.
- [17:30]
Chuck Norris
Yeah, well, it was funny how that term came up. I was in New York about a year ago and some kids are following me down the road. So they're talking to me and all this stuff here. And one kid says, man, he says, you don't step on toes, you step on necks. And that's how I remember that. So that term kind of stuck in my mind. And so when the movie came about, I said, hey, that's a. I like that terminology. So that's why we inserted it into the movie.
- [17:59]
Terry Gross
In your movies, your character is constantly being provoked to use his martial arts skills and to pull out guns and knives as well. Do people ever try to take you out in real life? Have you been called on in real life to use those skills?
- [18:13]
Chuck Norris
I've never had to use it. I've been all over the world and traveled everywhere, and I've never had anyone approach me in that respect. I think mainly, again, it's the philosophy that I demonstrate on the screen. It's not a guy who's walking around looking for trouble with a chip on his shoulder. That's what brings that type of people on to challenge you. It's a guy who doesn't want trouble, but he's forced into the situation to have to deal with it. And with that philosophy in mind, it's not the type of character that people think that you're walking around looking for trouble. And so in turn, I don't think that's probably one of the reasons I haven't been encountered that way.
- [18:52]
Terry Gross
I'm sure that knowing the martial arts gives you a lot of self confidence. Have you ever used that to psych someone out in a potentially violent situation?
- [19:01]
Chuck Norris
I not in an antagonizing way. Again, when you see trouble happening, you try to diffuse it before it becomes uncontrollable. And I've had to do that several times where I've been able to diffuse a potential physical altercation before it got to that extreme. And that's part of and the thing is, if you don't get emotionally involved and you analyze the situation of why it's happening, generally you can get out of it, especially when the person realizes you're not doing it because you're afraid, but you're doing it just because you don't want the trouble. And they can feel that, they can generally get a sense of that. And when they do, then if you give them an out, then generally they will take it.
- [19:44]
Terry Gross
Okay. What effect do you think you've had on the American view of maleness?
- [19:51]
Chuck Norris
God, Jesus, I don't know. I don't know if I've had any effect on that respect because again, I don't even think of me having a maleness type of an effect on the audience. I just play a particular type of character that I enjoy being. It was a character that I demonstrated as a karate instructor for 15 years, and I've tried to carry it on into my screen life. And you know, a guy who has a certain compassion for life and people and doesn't want violence, but then he's put into a position that there's no choice but to deal with it. And we all would have to do that in our life if we're forced into it.
- [20:36]
Terry Gross
Well, Chuck Norris, I want to thank you very much for talking with us. Thanks for being with us.
- [20:40]
Chuck Norris
You bet. My pleasure.
- [20:41]
Dave Davies
Chuck Norris spoke with Terry Gross in 1988. He died last week at the age of 86. Coming up, we remember Augie Myers of the Texas Tornadoes. He helped shape the sound of Tex Mex on his vox organ. I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH air.
- [20:58]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
This message comes from Angie. If you're tackling a home project, check out angie.com from roofing to remodels and everything in between, Angie connects you with skilled pros who do such a good job, you might trust them to do other things like pull out your tooth or be your kid's godfather. Don't actually ask them to do those things, just let them get the job done. Well, Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust, find a pro for your projects@angie.com that's a n
- [21:27]
Announcer
g I.com support for this podcast and the following message come from Strawberry Me. If you could go back and talk to your younger self, would you tell yourself that you have a job that truly makes you happy? Many people are stuck in jobs they've outgrown or never really wanted. A career coach from Strawberry Me can help you move on to something you actually love. Benefit from having a dedicated coach in your Corner and get 50% off your first coaching session at Strawberry Me. This message comes from ixl, an online platform that helps kids truly understand what they're learning, whether it's math or reading and writing skills. With spring approaching, testing is right around the corner. Studies show that kids using IXL score higher on tests. One subscription covers everything for all the kids in your home. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now. Receive 20% off an IXL membership if you sign up today@ixl.com NPR this message
- [22:31]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
comes from NPR sponsor Charles Schwab with its original podcast on Investing. Each week you'll get thoughtful, in depth analysis of both the stock and the bond markets. Listen today and subscribe@schwab.com oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:50]
Announcer
This message comes from Bayer. Science is a rigorous process that requires questions, testing, transparency and results that can be proven. This approach is integral to every breakthrough. Bayer brings forward innovations that save lives and feed the world. ScienceDelivers.com this is FRESH AIR.
- [23:09]
Dave Davies
I'm Dave Davies. Since introducing his Yellowstone TV series starring Kevin Costner in 2018, Taylor Sheridan has made a very successful career of building dramas around veteran stars Jeremy Renner in Mayor of Kingstown, Sylvester Stallone in Tulsa King and Billy Bob Thornton in Landman. But some of his best work has come in prequels to his Yellowstone story, featuring Sam Elliott and Faith Hill in the series 1883 and Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren in 1923. Now Sheridan has a new official sequel series, Marshals on CBS and a seemingly unrelated series, the Madison, that our TV critic David Biancooli suspects will connect to the Yellowstone storyline before too long. Here are David's reviews.
- [23:58]
David Biancooli
The Madison is a six episode drama starring Michelle Pfeiffer and Kurt Russell that streamed half its episodes when it premiered March 14th on Paramount. Plus it has been renewed already for a second season. Its first three episodes were written by Taylor Sheridan and directed by Christina Alexandra Voros, who directed many episodes of both Yellowstone and 1883. It's set up as a sort of dramatic Green Acres and Presents Pfeiffer and Russell as Stacy and Preston, Wealthy New Yorkers who are close to approaching their 50th wedding anniversary. They have daughters and granddaughters. And Preston also has a cabin and some land he shares with his brother Paul in Madison River Valley, Montana. He goes there when he can to relax. When he does, his wife Stacy stays behind in the city. It's a loving relationship. But one night, when Preston checks in by cell phone, he gives Stacy some news. And she has some of her own.
- [24:59]
Announcer
You feel rested.
- [25:00]
Terry Gross
What time do you land tomorrow?
- [25:02]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Okay. Gonna have to push it back a day, honey, because Paul has something very, very special planned for tomorrow.
- [25:09]
Terry Gross
Mm.
- [25:10]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
It's a stretch of river that can only be reached by pack horse. Takes like a week. Paul has permission to fly us into it. Honey, this is like. Well, it's virgin water.
- [25:20]
Announcer
Oh, now there's virgins involved.
- [25:24]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Nobody fishes this stretch, honey. Nobody. Maybe a dozen people a year, if that.
- [25:30]
Announcer
Hey, some bad news. Paige got mugged today down in the village.
- [25:37]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
What? Mugged? Is she okay?
- [25:40]
Announcer
Yeah, she just. You know, she got a pretty good shiner and a decent cut. The doctor saw her six ditches.
- [25:47]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Damn it. I cannot come up with one plausible reason why we still live in that city.
- [25:52]
Announcer
Well, I'll give you two our children. Two more our grandchildren.
- [25:58]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
My parents make her use the car. Honey, that's what it's for.
- [26:02]
Announcer
She thinks it's a garish display of wealth.
- [26:05]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Well, if my money's so offensive, maybe we should stop giving it to her.
- [26:09]
David Biancooli
Before long, Stacy decides to take her daughters and granddaughters to see the Montana cabins for the first time. The whole family is there. One older, divorced daughter with two girls, a teenager and one in grade school. And the younger married daughter who has just been mugged. Conditions and provisions are Spartan. And when a thoughtful neighbor arrives unannounced, dropping off containers of pre made meals to help them get by. Stacy is grateful for the food and the gesture, but once the neighbor leaves, her granddaughters are less so. This is one scene in which Pfeiffer really gets to shine.
- [26:47]
Terry Gross
Okay, do we really want to be eating some strange person's food? Fried chicken, fried steak? Why would they fry steak?
- [26:55]
Announcer
Don't eat it.
- [26:56]
Terry Gross
Then maybe ask what we like before you bring.
- [27:04]
Announcer
I blame myself. After all, she's raising you like I raised her. Complete strangers spent I don't know how much time they spent, how much thought went into this.
- [27:19]
Terry Gross
Not to mention money.
- [27:21]
Announcer
Looking at that truck. Money isn't something they have in abundance. And you have the nerve to judge
- [27:28]
Terry Gross
it
- [27:30]
Announcer
what spoiled little bitches we've raised.
- [27:33]
David Biancooli
The Madison, like Yellowstone and all its prequel series, is all about legacy and responsibility and relationships, but focusing on the women instead of the men. Some scenes and concepts in the Madison are absurd in the extreme, like the idea that the streets of New York are more dangerous than any Wild West. But there also are moments of true beauty and calm. And the valley setting itself, I suspect eventually will link to previous series in the Yellowstone canon. Fly fishing figures prominently here, as it does in most other Yellowstone connected series. But Sheridan and the Madison, with Kurt Russell fully enjoying the peace of the river, nails the emotion. The new CBS sequel Marshalls, which also has a male bonding fly fishing scene, does not. Marshalls, which premiered March 1 on CBS, stars Luke Grimes as Casey Dutton, one of the sons of Kevin Costner's John Dutton from Yellowstone. Sheridan co wrote the first episodes, but Marshall's isn't nearly as good a series as the Madison. It finds a way to get Casey hired as a U.S. marshal, but mostly to give the character a chance to run around with more advanced weaponry. And his relationship with his son Tate, played by Brecken Merrill from Yellowstone, is explored a lot less credibly and dramatically than the maternal dynamics on the Madison. Here's Casey having a father son talk with Tate in the premiere of Marshalls.
- [29:05]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Your grandfather, he warned me about this. He said one day you'd test me,
- [29:12]
Chuck Norris
force me to make a decision that
- [29:13]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
not only affects your future but my place in it. I want you to forge your own path.
- [29:22]
Chuck Norris
East Camp is your home. It's not your destiny. You won't hate me for that.
- [29:32]
David Biancooli
Marshalls adds to the Yellowstone legacy with its allusions to long established storylines like a seventh generation land surrender and modern clashes that echo deadly standoffs of old. But it's The Madison, like 1883 and 1923 that brings the best out of Taylor Sheridan and bringing back veteran movie stars Michelle Pfeiffer and Kurt Russell. Even in a modern western, that's a real bonanza.
- [30:00]
Dave Davies
David Biancooley reviewed the Madison and Marshalls. Coming up, we remember Tex Mex pioneer Augie Myers of the Texas tornadoes. This is FRESH air.
- [30:11]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
This message comes from Angie. If you're tackling a home project, check out angie.com from roofing to remodels and everything in between, Angie connects you with skilled pros who do such a good job, you might trust them to do other things like pull out your tooth or be your kid's godfather. Don't actually ask them to do those things, just let them get the job done well. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your projects@angie.com that's a n g I.com support for this
- [30:43]
Announcer
podcast and the following message come from Strawberry Me. If you could go back and talk to your younger self, would you tell yourself that you have a job that truly makes you happy? Many people are stuck in jobs they've outgrown or never really wanted. A career coach from Strawberry Me can help you move on to something you actually love. Benefit from having a dedicated coach in your Corner and get 50% off your first coaching session at Strawberry Me. NPR this message comes from ixl, an online platform that helps kids truly understand what they're learning, whether it's math or reading and writing skills. With spring approaching, testing is right around the corner. Studies show that kids using IXL score higher on tests. One subscription covers everything for all the kids in your home. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now. Receive 20% off an IXL membership if you sign up today@ixl.com NPR this message
- [31:44]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
comes from NPR sponsor Charles Schwab with its original podcast on Investing. Each week you'll get thoughtful, in depth analysis of both the stock and the bond markets. Listen today and subscribe@schwab.com oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [32:04]
Dave Davies
This is FRESH AIR. Augie Myers, who helped shape the sound of Tex Mex music with the 60s band Sir Douglas Quintet and then with the Texas Tornadoes, died earlier this month. He played keyboards, organ and accordion. His signature sound came from using the Vox organ, a smaller, reedier sounding instrument than the richer sounding Hammond B3 organ used by more bands. The Vox organ came from England, and at one point the Beatles approached Myers to ask how he got his distinctive sound out of the instrument. Author and historian Joe Nick Potosky described Augie Myers and his Vox organ as the element in Tex Mex music that gives it the bounce, the appeal that made Tex Mex more than a regional sound. Myers bandmate in the Sir Douglas Quintet was guitar prodigy and singer Doug Somme, a childhood friend. The group formed during the British Invasion and the band name was chosen to sound British. Their biggest hits were She's About a Mover and Mendocino. The group broke up in 1972. In 1989, Myers and Somm came together again to form the Grammy Award winning band the Texas Tornadoes with country and Tejano star Freddie Fender and accordion aficionado Flaco Jimenez. Their hits include hey Baby, Que Paso Soy de San Luis and who were you thinking of? Augie Myers was also a sideman on albums by Willie Nelson, Tom Waits, Rahul Malo, and Bob Dylan. Terry Gross spoke with augie Meyers in 1990. They began with the Texas Tornado song. Who were you thinking of?
- [33:41]
Augie Myers
Who were you thinking of? When we were making love last night? Was it a good looking stranger or a girlfriend of mine? You didn't wanna quit when we was into it last night? What were you thinking of? When we were loving last night? What were you thinking of? When I was making love to you? There was a smile on your face. I ain't seen it so tight. You got more out of it then I put into it last night. What were you thinking of when we were over last night, What were you thinking of?
- [34:57]
Terry Gross
My guest, Doggie Myers, featured on both accordion and organ on that recording. You overdubbing on that?
- [35:02]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Yes.
- [35:03]
Terry Gross
Yeah, I guess you'd have to. You really use organ as a rhythm instrument. I was wondering how you started playing organ that way.
- [35:11]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
My main instrument, I guess years ago was piano, and that was the first Vox organ that was ever in America. I bought in 60 1962, and I didn't like the way it sounded trying to play solos on it. So I just started playing rhythm on it. Just used it as a rhythm instrument.
- [35:26]
Augie Myers
Mr.
- [35:27]
Terry Gross
I think a lot of people picked up on that. Did you have anybody to pick up on? I mean, had you heard organ played that way before?
- [35:33]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
No, no. I listened to, I guess my piano players way back then was Moon Mulligan and then Ray Charles. A lot of people don't know Ray Charles played with Guitar Slim. He was called R.C. richardson way back then, and he mostly played a lot of shuffle stuff and it was mostly rhythm. Piano was mainly used as a rhythm instrument way back in the blues era, and that's what I mainly play is rhythm.
- [35:56]
Terry Gross
Now you play Vox and Hammond B3 on the new record. What's the difference between the two and what you can get out of it?
- [36:04]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Oh, a lot. I mean, a Hammond B3 is, you know, it's like a milkshake, you know, with whipped cream and ice cream. And a Vox organ is just a glass of water, but a good glass of water. So there's a lot of difference between that. I mean, you got more sounds out of the Hammond organ for rhythm and blues and jazz and stuff, where Vox was mainly used for a lot of the English stuff.
- [36:28]
Terry Gross
This is one of those little organs that kind of stand up a small keyboard. So you were the first person in the States to have a vox organ.
- [36:37]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Right.
- [36:38]
Terry Gross
How did you become the first person to do that?
- [36:40]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
I used to prescribe to a lot of English magazines back in the early 60s just to check up and see what's going on. And. And I remember it was $285 and a man, God bless him, he's gone now, but he owned a music store in San Antonio named Mr. Woods. He helped me get it. It was $285 then after the Beatles and the Stones and Dave Clark 5, and everybody came out. They ran up to like 1,500 bucks. I still have my original one. I've got four of them. And if anybody out there's got one want to sell it, please let me know. I like to buy them all.
- [37:09]
Announcer
Oh, really?
- [37:11]
Terry Gross
So did this make you in demand, having this new sound and new instrument?
- [37:14]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
For a fact? Yes, it did. I remember when me and Doug first went to England in the 60s, George Harrison and Lennon. John Lennon called the hotel and wanted me to come to the studio because they wanted to see how they had a vox organ. But they couldn't get the sound that I had out of mine. They couldn't get their sound out of theirs. But it was only due to the amplification. They didn't have reverb in their amplifiers back then. The reverb was a new thing that came out.
- [37:41]
Terry Gross
Mm. Now, I know you had polio as a child.
- [37:44]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Yeah. I tell them, from when I was two years old till I was almost ten, I had polio. I couldn't walk.
- [37:49]
Terry Gross
So you didn't start walking until you were around 10?
- [37:51]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
I was about 10. So I lived with my grandparents, and when they used to go out in the field every day and pick cotton, they took me over to this black lady's house and her husband picked cotton for my grand folks. And they had a piano, and he played in their church, in the black church. But they used to set me up on the piano and just to pacify my time away all day, and that's what I did. Because there was no TV back then. They didn't have radio or electricity in the house.
- [38:16]
Terry Gross
Were your hands and fingers strong enough to play?
- [38:19]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Well, my right one was. My left one was a little affected by the polio. But my grandfather, I owe it all to him. He made me walk again, plus the good Lord, you know. But my grandfather, he did his home remedies on me.
- [38:33]
Terry Gross
So do you think learning to play when one hand was still weak affected the way you ended up playing the style that you ended up having.
- [38:40]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Well, I think so because I do a lot of rhythm on my right hand and my left hand just kind of hits the dominant card on there. I still have problems. I do therapy, I play. That's why I bought my accordion for therapy, for my hands and my fingers. And I learned to play guitar that way too.
- [38:57]
Terry Gross
Did you get full strength back in your hands?
- [39:00]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Well, put it this way, I appreciate what I got. If I got it, if I had any more, I don't know what I'd do with it.
- [39:05]
Terry Gross
How did you meet Doug Somm, who you played with for many years and are still playing with on the Texas Tornadoes record?
- [39:09]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Well, his folks traded in my mother's grocery store and he used to come there and buy all his baseball cards. And I was a sack boy. And that was it. That was in, I guess we were 14, 15 years old.
- [39:23]
Terry Gross
One of the great rock and roll stories was how when you were produced by uemo, how he wanted to pass you off as a British invasion group.
- [39:33]
Chuck Norris
Who?
- [39:33]
Terry Gross
Yeah. Do you feel that way also? Are you into the who?
- [39:35]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
No, no, no, no, no. Freddie just looked at me and said, who? I just said who.
- [39:39]
Terry Gross
Okay.
- [39:39]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
No, but yeah, Huey wanted to pass, but I mean, it was really hard because there was. There was two gringos and three Mexicans in a band, you know, I'm trying to get these Spanish dudes to sit there and try to, you know, I like a spot of Taylor, you know, and try to talk English. When they'd sit there and say, man, what time is it, man, let's go get a beer, you know. And that was their kind of accent, you know. So trying to be English, it pulled it off. Til Trini Lopez on, I think it was Hullabaloo, said, man, they're from Texas, you know.
- [40:06]
Terry Gross
Well, what is your ethnic group? What's your ethnic background?
- [40:10]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Gemini.
- [40:12]
Terry Gross
So am I ready?
- [40:15]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Gemini too. Now, what do you mean by I think back then, you know?
- [40:17]
Terry Gross
Well, I'm thinking, you know, you're a gringo playing a lot of, you know, Tex Mex Mexican inspired music. So I wasn't sure what your ethnic background is.
- [40:27]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
I'm a German and Polish.
- [40:29]
Terry Gross
German and Polish. Okay. So you probably heard the music of a lot of different ethnic groups growing up in Texas.
- [40:37]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Oh, yes. Well, back, I mean, actually back, I guess Freddie can say when we were growing up in Texas, there was either country music or Spanish music. I mean, there was no, you know. Then all of a sudden Mor came in, which was Little Richard and Elvis Presley, you know. So we kind of combined all three of them.
- [40:56]
Terry Gross
Well, you know, why don't I play something that's kind of half Spanish? This is a song that you wrote called hey Baby, Que Paso? Do you want to say anything about the song and about.
- [41:07]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Well, I mean, I wanted to write something that was, you know, at one point nobody would play my records back home because I either had a the country station wouldn't play, they had horns on it. The rock station wouldn't play because I had a fiddle or steal. The Spanish station wouldn't play because there was no Spanish in it. So I just did the Que Pa. So, you know, to half English, half Spanish. Put a little accordion in it. Actually, I wrote that song about one of my girlfriends running off with my best friends.
- [41:33]
Terry Gross
Uh huh. Okay.
- [41:34]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
I miss him, too, because we used to go out and shoot pool and drink beer.
- [41:37]
Terry Gross
Well, this is the version of it from the new Texas Tornadoes record, and it features Augie Myers on vocals, accordion and organ. Freddie Fender is on electric guitar. And here we go.
- [41:49]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
You can hear him yelling in the background, too.
- [41:51]
Terry Gross
Okay.
- [41:52]
Augie Myers
Hey baby, kep my soul no ko ella no hey baby, kep my soul
- [42:05]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
Know my dad just this and morto
- [42:09]
Augie Myers
Come on baby Ben and kind
- [42:13]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
get
- [42:13]
Augie Myers
old Bath and kind of ninda get no back and they get old
- [42:21]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
don't make that kiss this immortal
- [42:26]
Augie Myers
hey baby, get my soul boy can't make it us elo hey baby, get my soul
- [42:38]
Actor (fictional character in Walker, Texas Ranger)
no make that catch this in mortal.
- [43:00]
Dave Davies
That's Augie Myers on organ, accordion and vocals with the Texas Tornadoes. Myers spoke with Terry Gross in 1990. He died March 7th at the age of 85. This is FRESH AIR.
- [43:13]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
This message comes from Angie. If you're tackling a home project, check out angie.com from roofing to remodels and everything in between, Angie connects you with skilled pros who do such a good job, you might trust them to do other things, like pull out your tooth or be your kid's godfather. Don't actually ask them to do those things, just let them get the job done. Well, Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust, find a pro for your projects@angie.com that's a n
- [43:42]
Announcer
g I.com support for this podcast and the following message come from Strawberry Me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Are you stuck in a job you've outgrown or never wanted in the first place? Are your reasons for staying really just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from Strawberry me help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your Corner and get 50% off your first coaching session at Strawberry Me, NPR this message comes from IXL. Spring is here and school testing is just around the corner. IXL can help make an impact on your child's learning. Receive 20% off an IXL membership if you sign up today@ixl.com NPR this is FRESH AIR.
- [44:33]
Dave Davies
Our film critic Justin Chang recommends the German movie Miroir 3 from writer and director Christian Petzold, who's known for his earlier dramas including Transit and A Fire. The new film stars Paula Beer as a young Berlin woman who forms a strangely powerful bond with the family she meets in the countryside. The film is now playing in select theaters. Here's Justin's review.
- [44:57]
Justin Chang
The title of the quietly haunting new film Miroir no. 3, comes from a piano piece by Ravel that beautifully evokes the movements of a boat sailing in the ocean. It's no surprise that such music would appeal to the superb German filmmaker Christian Petzold. In movies like the enigmatic refugee drama Transit or the watery modern day fairy tale Undina, he loves to focus on characters who are lonely and adrift. Miroir is also the French word for mirrors, and that meaning resonates throughout the new movie, which is full of mysterious reflections and distortions. There are also deliberate echoes of great movies past. Petzold is famously obsessed with film noir, and watching his work can sometimes make you feel like you're wandering through that labyrinth of mirrors. And at the end of the Lady From Shanghai, that's a very good thing. Mur 3 begins in Berlin, where we meet a young woman named Laura, played by Petzold's frequent collaborator Paula Beer. Laura doesn't say much, but we can tell from her piercing stare that she's profoundly unhappy and her boyfriend Jacob doesn't seem to be helping. Jacob is an inconsiderate partner and, it turns out, a reckless driver. One day, as they're speeding through the countryside in his cherry red convertible, he crashes the car and is instantly killed. Laura, though miraculously survives with just a minor scrape. A middle aged woman named Betty, who lives near the crash site, comes to her rescue and after a medical exam, Laura asks if instead of going to the hospital, she can stay on and recuperate at Betty's house. Betty immediately says yes. She's played by the wonderful actor Barbara Auer, and you can tell just from how the two women look at each other that a close and instinctual bond has developed. One of the oddball pleasures of miroir 3 is how readily we accept what's happening. Even though Petzold withholds and only gradually reveals significant information about his characters, we have little sense of who Laura is or whether she has any friends or family. In time, we learn that she is studying to be a classical pianist. Betty proves similarly elusive, though we do meet her husband, Richard, and their grown son Max, who work together at an auto garage nearby. They're somewhat estranged from Betty for tragic reasons that eventually come into focus. Betty and Richard had a daughter who's now dead, but who seems to have had a lot in common with Laura, right down to their shared love of the piano. But the music that you might Remember Best from Miroir 3 isn't a classical piece. It's the 1972 song the Night by Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons, which plays in the garage one day when Max and Laura are hanging out. It's a joyous song, but it's also a tale of romantic caution, as though warning these two acquaintances not to get any closer.
- [48:09]
Augie Myers
So he paints a pretty picture and it tells you that he needs you and he covers you with flowers and he always keeps you dreaming. If he always keeps you dreaming, you won't have a lonely hour. If the day could last forever, you might like your ivory tower of the night begins to turn your head around
- [48:41]
Chuck Norris
and you know you're going to lose
- [48:43]
Augie Myers
more than you found.
- [48:48]
Justin Chang
What I love about Petzold's movies is that although they're very much tethered to the real world, they're not afraid to embrace implausibility, coincidence and even hints of the supernatural. He has the head of a realistic and the heart of a fantasist. Or maybe it's the other way around. He also loves the conventions of classic Hollywood filmmaking and clearly believes they can speak powerfully to the audiences of today. In Miroir 3, the notion of Laura serving as a stand in for a deceased woman is clearly a riff on Alfred Hitchcock's Vertigo, one of Petzold's favorite films. The protagonist's name also reminded me of one of my favorite films, the 1944 Otto Preminger classic Laura, which also has a memorable back from the dead element. But you don't have to spot these allusions to feel captivated and moved by the story that Petzold is telling. The surrogate family bonds that Laura forms with Betty and in time with Richard and Max are undeniably therapeutic. And Petzold suggests that there's something precious about these connections, even if they are built on a shared delusion. In showing us characters who feel the ache of love and loss and who dream of a second chance. Petzold holds up a mirror to us all.
- [50:14]
Dave Davies
Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker magazine. He reviewed the new film Mirror Number Three on Monday's show, an inside look at infowars, the conspiracy factory run by Alex Jones. Josh Owen spent four years there in his 20s, where the staff learned to dread Joan's erratic behavior and constant demands for sensational stories about the dark deeds of the deep state. Owen's new memoir is the Madness of Believing. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram P R Fresh Air. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel@YouTube.com thisisfreshair. We're rolling out new videos with in studio guests, behind the scenes shorts and iconic interviews from the archive. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorok. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld and Adam Stanischefsky. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. For Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley, I'm Dave Davies.
- [51:57]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
This message comes from Prolon Feeling heavy and depleted. Prolon's five day Fasting Mimicking diet aims to make it easy to reset your body habits and energy. Developed at USC's Longevity Institute, the goal of Prolon's nutrition program is to rejuvenate you from within by working at the cellular level to support fat loss, glowing skin and Sharper Focus. Get 15% off plus a bonus gift when you subscribe at prolonlife.com NPR this
- [52:28]
Announcer
message comes from Alexa. Say hello to Alexa and see how Alexa can do more for you craving your favorite restaurant. Alexa's on it free with prime on your Amazon devices. Learn more@Amazon.com Alexaplus this message comes from Ezcator, making it easy for organizations to order food for meetings and events from favorite restaurants, set up meal programs for their employees and manage food. Spend all in one place@easycator.com.