Remembering Brian Wilson, Leader Of The Beach Boys

Summary

Fresh Air: Remembering Brian Wilson, Leader of The Beach Boys
Release Date: June 13, 2025
Hosts: Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley

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Introduction

The June 13, 2025, episode of Fresh Air pays heartfelt tribute to Brian Wilson, the creative genius behind The Beach Boys, following the announcement of his passing at the age of 82. Hosted by Terry Gross and David Biancooli, the episode delves into Wilson's profound impact on music, his personal struggles, and his enduring legacy.

Brian Wilson's Musical Legacy

David Biancooli opens the episode by highlighting Brian Wilson's pivotal role in shaping the sound of The Beach Boys, especially during the early 1960s. Wilson was not only the lead singer but also the primary songwriter, producer, and arranger for the band. His innovative compositions, such as "I Get Around," "Help Me Rhonda," "Good Vibrations," and "God Only Knows," are lauded as masterpieces in rock history. Notably, Paul McCartney praised "God Only Knows" as one of the greatest songs ever written.

Notable Quote:
“God Only Knows” was from the 1966 album Pet Sounds, which Rolling Stone has ranked as one of the greatest rock albums ever recorded.

Archival Interviews: 1988 Insights

The episode features excerpts from a 1988 interview between Terry Gross and Brian Wilson. At that time, Wilson was under the care of psychotherapist and manager Eugene Landy. The conversation reveals Wilson's meticulous approach to music production, particularly his method of layering vocals one track at a time.

Notable Quote:
Brian Wilson [04:30]:
“The violence that occurs Seem like we never win Love and mercy that's what you need tonight Flow love and mercy to you and your friends tonight.”

Wilson discusses his solo album, emphasizing his shift from the collaborative Beach Boys dynamic to a more solitary creative process.

Brian Wilson [05:39]:
“I've always been a hustler, you know? And now I've slowed down a little bit, but because I've been exercising so much lately, I'm getting back my second wind in life.”
(Timestamp: 12:34)

Personal Struggles and Recovery

Biancooli narrates Wilson's early life, touching on his upbringing in Inglewood, California, his familial ties with fellow band members, and the abusive management by his father, Murray Wilson. Wilson's mental health struggles, including a nervous breakdown in 1964 and subsequent diagnosis with schizoaffective disorder, are explored. His reclusiveness and battles with substance abuse are candidly discussed, highlighting the complexity of his genius.

Second Interview: 1998 Reflections

A decade later, Wilson appears in a 1998 interview after parting ways with Eugene Landy. This segment portrays a more mature Wilson, who has remarried, adopted two children, and released a new album titled Imagination. The discussion reflects his continued evolution as an artist and his efforts to regain control over his life and music.

Notable Quote:
Brian Wilson [24:06]:
“I was a little bit hurt because the first one didn't sell very well. So I kind of felt hurt about that.”
(Timestamp: 24:21)

Wilson shares his songwriting process, emphasizing the layering of vocal harmonies to create a rich, full sound reminiscent of his early influences, like the Four Freshmen.

Musical Techniques and Innovations

Throughout the episode, Wilson's innovative studio techniques are examined. From his pioneering use of multi-tracking vocals to his experimentation with instrument blending and echo effects in Pet Sounds, Wilson's contributions to music production are underscored as groundbreaking.

Notable Quote:
Brian Wilson [38:26]:
“I tried to mix different instruments together to make a third sound, like an organ and a piano mixed together to make a third sound.”
(Timestamp: 38:26)

Legacy and Impact

Biancooli and Gross reflect on Wilson's enduring influence on rock and pop music. His ability to convey deep emotional resonance through complex harmonies and innovative arrangements has cemented his status as a musical icon. The episode also touches on his personal growth, including his reconciliation with his past and his role as a father.

Mike Love's Tribute:
Following Wilson's passing, cousin and bandmate Mike Love honors him on Instagram:
“Brian Wilson wasn't just the heart of the Beach Boys, he was the soul of our sound.”

Conclusion

Fresh Air culminates with a poignant remembrance of Brian Wilson, celebrating his artistic brilliance and the indelible mark he left on the music world. The episode serves as both a homage to his extraordinary career and a reflection on his personal journey through triumphs and tribulations.

Final Musical Excerpts:
Listeners are treated to snippets of Wilson's beloved tracks, reinforcing the episode's theme of his lasting musical legacy.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Brian Wilson [04:30]:
  “The violence that occurs Seem like we never win Love and mercy that's what you need tonight Flow love and mercy to you and your friends tonight.”

• Brian Wilson [05:39]:
  “I've always been a hustler, you know? And now I've slowed down a little bit, but because I've been exercising so much lately, I'm getting back my second wind in life.”
  (Timestamp: 12:34)

• Brian Wilson [24:06]:
  “I was a little bit hurt because the first one didn't sell very well. So I kind of felt hurt about that.”
  (Timestamp: 24:21)

• Brian Wilson [38:26]:
  “I tried to mix different instruments together to make a third sound, like an organ and a piano mixed together to make a third sound.”
  (Timestamp: 38:26)

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Closing Remarks

The episode underscores Brian Wilson's unparalleled contribution to music, blending his innovative spirit with his personal battles to create a legacy that continues to inspire generations. Through intimate interviews and reflective narratives, Fresh Air offers listeners a comprehensive and moving tribute to one of rock and roll's most influential figures.

Transcript

[Terry Gross]

The House of Representatives has approved a White House request to claw back two.

[Brian Wilson]

Years of previously approved funding for public media.

[Terry Gross]

The rescissions package now moves on to the Senate. This move poses a serious threat to local stations and public media as we know it. Please take a stand for public media [e-mail] thank you.

[David Biancooli]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Biancooli. Today we remember Brian Wilson, founder of the Beach Boys. His death was announced Wednesday by his family. He was 82 years old. Brian Wilson was the creative force behind the Beach Boys, the most popular singing group of the early 1960s until they were unseated by the Beatles. He was the lead singer of the Beach Boys and wrote, produced and arranged their songs, which included the early number one hits I Get around and Help Me Rhonda. Later, more intricate and ambitious compositions included another number one hit, good Vibrations, as well as God Only Knows, a song Paul McCartney praised as one of the greatest songs ever written.

[Brian Wilson]

Always love you, but long as there are stars above you, you never need to doubt it. I'll make you so sure about it. God only knows what I'd be without you. If you should ever leave me, oh, life would still go on, believe me. The could show nothing to me, so what good would living to me? God only knows what I'd be without you.

[David Biancooli]

God Only Knows was from the 1966 album Pet Sounds, which Rolling Stone has ranked as one of the greatest rock albums ever recorded. Other songs on that album, which Wilson crafted in the studio two years after stepping down from touring with the group, included Wouldn't It Be Nice, Sloop, John B. And a song which provided the title for a documentary made about him in 1995, I just wasn't Made for these times. Brian Wilson was born in inglewood, California, in 1942 and raised in suburban Los Angeles with his brothers Carl and Dennis, cousin Mike Love and others. They formed a musical group exploring harmonies, celebrating the Southern California surfing craze and relying on Brian Wilson's catchy melodies and musical arrangements. His father, Murray Wilson, became their manager, but also was controlling and abusive. Brian Wilson stopped touring with the group in 1964 after suffering his first nervous breakdown. He was hallucinating and paranoid and diagnosed with what is now called schizoaffective disorder. Eventually, he became reclusive and overweight, then resurfaced in the mid-70s after being treated by psychotherapist Eugene Landy. Landy, however, proved just as controlling as Brian Wilson's father. Once Brian resumed recording, Landy became not only his Manager, but his musical collaborator before they parted ways in 1991 after a family intervention later in life, Brian Wilson recovered sufficiently to record a few more albums and even to tour. In 2007, he was a recipient of the Kennedy Center Honors, but his mental illness lingered, and he struggled with dementia in the years before his death. We're going to listen back to two of Terry's interviews with Brian Wilson. The first was in 1988, when he was still under the care of Eugene Landy. Brian Wilson had just released his first solo album since leaving the Beach Boys, a project for which he not only wrote and arranged the songs, but played most of the instruments and sang both lead and backup vocals. Terry started by playing the album's opening track, love and Mercy.

[Brian Wilson]

I was sitting in a crummy movie with my hands on my chin.

[Terry Gross]

Oh.

[Brian Wilson]

The violence that occurs Seem like we never win Love and mercy that's what you need tonight Flow love and mercy to you and your friends tonight.

[Terry Gross]

I.

[Brian Wilson]

Was lying in my room and the news came on TV.

[Terry Gross]

A lot of.

[Brian Wilson]

People out there hurting and it really scares me Love and mercy that's what you need tonight oh, love and mercy to you and your friends tonight.

[Terry Gross]

That'S Love and Mercy from Brian Wilson's new solo album. Brian Wilson. Welcome to French Air.

[Brian Wilson]

Hi.

[Terry Gross]

How are you, Terry?

On the new album, you play most of the instruments. You. You record most of the voices yourself. When you write a song, do you hear all the harmonies in your head as you write it, all the vocal harmonies?

[Brian Wilson]

Yeah, I do. I hear most of them in my head as I write them. We used to go do the whole group at once, you know, the Beachboy group. We'd all do the. We'd do all the voices in one thing on one microphone, you know, But. Well, sometimes we use two and three microphones, depending on how we wanted it to sound. But. So we did these. But. But with my solo album, it's like. It's a. It's a venture into one at a time land. You know what I mean? You go one at a time.

[Terry Gross]

You do them one at a time.

[Brian Wilson]

One at a time? Yeah. One voice at a time. Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

How would you teach the harmonies to the Beach Boys when you were working with them?

[Brian Wilson]

When I worked with the Beach Boys, I. I taught them one at a time also, you know, and then we all. We would rehearse as a group, and then we put it on tape. Then we go to the microphone and put it on tape.

[Terry Gross]

So you'd sing the part to each of them?

[Brian Wilson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

How do you think the Beach Boys feel about you going solo? Do they mind?

[Brian Wilson]

No, I don't think so. I don't think the Beach Boys mind at all. No, I think they're happy. We had a corporation. We had a corporation meeting in Chicago three weeks ago. And Al and Carl both congratulated me on the success of my album.

[Terry Gross]

You've said that your early sound was influenced by the Four Freshmen.

[Brian Wilson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Now, a lot of people would have thought of the Four Freshmen as being really square group in their harmonies. What did you really like about them?

[Brian Wilson]

What did I like? I liked the way they blended their voices, you know, the sound they made as they blended their voices. I liked. I thought they were great. I didn't see anything wrong with the far Freshmen at all.

[Terry Gross]

What else did you listen to when you were young?

[Brian Wilson]

I listened to Rosemary Clooney and the Four Freshmen and just different people, you know.

[Terry Gross]

How did you start singing in falsetto? And how did you figure out that you could have a falsetto voice?

[Brian Wilson]

Well, because I used to practice the freshman with the high voice and the poor freshman, and his name was Bob Flanagan. And I practice along with him. Whenever I'd hear freshman songs, I'd sing along with the high note. And I got into a habit of singing high.

[Terry Gross]

And when the Beach Boys.

[Brian Wilson]

And when the Beach Boys came along, I just took that habit of mine. That habit. Bad or good? Just a habit of singing high, you know? So then I started saying, hey, I sound like a girl up here. So I got into it. And I got into it, you know.

[Terry Gross]

The first songs that you wrote and recorded were surf songs. Now, you'd never surfed yourself, right? What was the inspiration for writing surfing songs?

[Brian Wilson]

My inspiration for writing surfing songs goes back to my brother Dennis, who drowned, of course, in 1983. In December of 1983, he asked me if I would be interested in writing a song about surfing.

[Terry Gross]

Hold it. Excuse me.

[Brian Wilson]

I had to yawn. And I said, sure, I'll try it. And I tried it. And about a month later, we were on the Los Angeles charts. On the la. The Los Angeles charts with surfing.

[Terry Gross]

You know, you were actually afraid of water yourself, right?

[Brian Wilson]

Oh, yeah. I have an aversion to water. I don't know what it is. I don't know exactly what it is. Could be. Could be that. I think I saw somebody drown in a pool once. This guy drowned and I saw the ambulance come get him at the. You know, And I was. It kind of scared me to death. And I think that turned me off to water.

[Terry Gross]

Did you have to pretend like you were a surfer when the Beach Boys first got started?

[Brian Wilson]

No, not at all. We didn't play the role of surfers. We sang about surf and girls, but we did not, you know. You know, whatever.

[Terry Gross]

I want to play one of your early surf records.

[Brian Wilson]

What song is that?

[Terry Gross]

This is Catch a Wave.

[Brian Wilson]

Catch a Wave? Oh, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

The production on this is. Is just terrific. There's a. There's a harp, there's an organ. Great touches on it. Just. Would you say a little bit about how you produced this record?

[Brian Wilson]

Catch A Wave?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[Brian Wilson]

Yeah, that was. Michael and I wanted to do something where we would display the high voice, the medium voice and the bass voice all in one record. You know, different. At different intervals. You know what I mean? Not all at once sometimes, but separate from each other, you know, and it starts that.

[Terry Gross]

Don't be afraid to try the great.

[Brian Wilson]

That's the bass part, right? Was my voice. And I'm like, da, da, da, da. And then he was in the middle, too. So he sang bass and middle, and I sang high.

[Terry Gross]

What about the instrumentation?

[Brian Wilson]

The instrumentation was just two guitars, a piano, drums and a harp and stuff like that.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, let's hear it. Catch a wave, catch a wave and.

[Brian Wilson]

You'Re sitting on top of the world. Don't be afraid to drive the greatest sport around. Catch a wave, catch a wave. Those who don't just have to put it down. You paddle out, turn around and raise a baby. That's all there is to the coastline craze. You gotta catch a wave. You're sitting on top of the world.

[Terry Gross]

Not just a bed.

[Brian Wilson]

Cause it's been going on so long. Catch away, catch away soon it wouldn't last too long. They'll eat their words with a fork and spoon and watch them. They'll hit the road and I'll be surfing soon. And when they catch a wave, they'll be sitting on top of the world.

[Terry Gross]

I don't know if you listen to your old records very much, but what goes through your mind when you hear that?

[Brian Wilson]

Well, a lot of stuff. When I hear old records, it just floods through my mind. You mean in my. As far as my opinion of what it sounds like or my sentimentality to it?

[Terry Gross]

Both.

[Brian Wilson]

Well, I feel first. I feel more artistically aware than sentimental, you know, My first reaction is usually an artistic like, oh, I think my voice flattened. I wish I had just taken a few more minutes to get it right in the studio, you know? You know, young and impulsive. Right. Young. Young and restless. Want to get through, want to get out of here, want to go swimming, want to go to a movie, you know, so that's how it used to happen to me. And then. And then the sentimental value would creep in and I'd think, oh, gosh, you know, how could I have made a record that great? You know, that kind of thing crosses my mind, too. So there's artistic criticism, self criticism, and then there's sentimentality. Those two ingredients go into that.

[Terry Gross]

What about thinking? About thinking back to how you felt at the time you recorded it?

[Brian Wilson]

Oh, well, the way I felt, you mean. Well, it was kind of like when I was in my 20s, early 20s, I was full of energy, right? I mean, I darted around. I could. I could do anything. I could produce a record. I could go to a movie, I could go running. I could do anything. You know what I mean? When I was in my early 20s, I was a real bombardier. I mean, I was really a hustler, you know?

[Terry Gross]

And now.

[Brian Wilson]

And now I've slowed down a little bit, but because I've been exercising so much lately, I'm getting back my. I'm getting my second wind in life, you know what I mean? It's not like being 22 again and 24, but it's still a. It's odd, you know, you go through these trips in your life when you're.

[Terry Gross]

How old are you, 37.

[Brian Wilson]

37.

[Terry Gross]

I always have to think, gosh, I.

[Brian Wilson]

Mean, can you remember what it's like to be 22?

[Terry Gross]

A little bit.

[Brian Wilson]

You can sort of remember it, but, like, when you get a little older, you sort of slow down a little bit.

[Terry Gross]

Right.

[Brian Wilson]

You know, and that's the one thing I don't want to do, is slow down, because I don't want to die. So I'm going to keep going real fast.

[Terry Gross]

When you were writing songs like Fun, Fun, Fun, did you think of yourself as having a lot of fun?

[Brian Wilson]

Well, Mike came up with those words, but, yes, I did think of myself as having fun, fun, fun. But he. Mostly because he wrote those lyrics. He wrote that part of the lyrics.

[Terry Gross]

Okay. Now, you also wrote a lot of really melancholy songs.

[Brian Wilson]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

And on Pet Sounds, for instance, you have a wonderful song, I Wasn't Made for these Times.

Oh, yeah.

When you wrote I Just Wasn't Made for these Times.

[Brian Wilson]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Was that how you were feeling?

[Brian Wilson]

When I wrote that, it was like I really was feeling that way. Yes, I was, because I felt that I was being rejected by some of my friends, you know?

[Terry Gross]

For what?

[Brian Wilson]

Who knows? You know, I just felt a Rejection from the public. I can't explain it, you know, anymore. Now.

[Terry Gross]

It was.

[Brian Wilson]

It was a very super personal thing. It was a personal thing that I cannot really go into because it's too deep, you know.

[Terry Gross]

I want to play some of that song. And this is from your 1966 album, Pet Sounds, which is really one of the legendary albums in.

[Brian Wilson]

Yes. In the history of rock.

[Terry Gross]

In the history of rock and roll. Yeah. And do you want to say anything else about what you were feeling when you wrote this?

[Brian Wilson]

Sure. I felt I had prayer sessions, prayer sessions with my brother Carl. We both prayed for people's safety and well being. We made this album with the fact that love was going to be the predominant theme in the album. With, of course, artistic and entertaining kind of music going on at the same time. But the love came from the voices that we did. And we got into a little trip where we were going to bring some spiritual love to the world, you know, and we really did, you know, we actually did because we wanted to in our souls, you know. We both felt the calling, you know. So why not pray for this album and nurture it along and pray and have prayer sessions, you know, it was a religious experience, like taking. Some people think that psychedelic drugs are a religious experience, you know, and that's how I felt about Pet Sounds.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, so from Pet Sounds, this is Brian Wilson's I just wasn't made for.

[Brian Wilson]

These times I keep looking for a place to fit in Where I can swim Speak my mind and I've been trying hard to find the people that I won't leave behind they say I got brains but they ain't doing me no good I wish they could each time things start to happen again I think I got something good going for myself and what goes wrong. Sometimes I feel very sad Sometimes I feel very. Sometimes I feel I guess I just wasn't made for these times.

[Terry Gross]

When you were recording the record that we just heard, an excerpt of Pet Sounds, I think that was during a period when you were doing a lot of drugs.

[Brian Wilson]

Yes, I was.

[Terry Gross]

How did the drugs affect your music? Both in the good ways and the bad ways that.

[Brian Wilson]

Well, the bad ways. There's no way drugs can influence music in a bad way. That's a mis. Misdemeanor. That's a misnomer.

[Terry Gross]

No way drugs can influence music in a bad way.

[Brian Wilson]

No, no music I don't understand. Unless you feel that somebody would make. Unless you call heavy metal a very negative statement, you know, a very unartistic or let's say destructive kind Of a music. You can go on drugs and make music. Yes, on drugs, you know, but you're much better to make music off in drugs because you can see the overall picture better. When you make music on drugs, you're too concerned with this line or that line or that voice or this and that, you know, other than just being behind it, all the way behind it and, and putting together music from a higher standpoint than drugs can take you.

[Terry Gross]

So are you saying that you used drugs for inspiration, but when you actually recorded, you tried to not be high?

[Brian Wilson]

Oh, no, no. High in the studio?

[Terry Gross]

No.

Okay. You went through a period of time where you barely left the house and didn't do much recording or producing at all. What did you do during that time? What was life like for you?

[Brian Wilson]

I took a lot of drugs. I kept taking more and more drugs to get away from the rattly bang, nerve wracking aspects of life. You know, I kept telling myself, turn it down, somebody turn it down. You know, that's like a way of saying, hey, cool it, you know, like, turn it down, it's too loud, you know, and I got, I got through, I went through some of that and you know, like everybody does. Everybody goes through that turn it down thing, you know, where they want it down lower, not quite so loud. Maybe down here, you know, a little lower.

[Terry Gross]

Besides drugs and stuff, what gave you pleasure?

[Brian Wilson]

Well, what gave me pleasure? Well, when I heard of first Phil Spector record on the radio, I said, you know, Phil knows exactly what to put out there. He knows the formula, the secret, you know, of rock and roll. And I used to look up to the guy and then I said to myself, you know, you can't all your life walk around idolizing somebody. You got to do your own thing.

[Terry Gross]

You know, it's really a thrill to hear a new record from you and also to have the opportunity to sit across the table from you. Thank you. And interview you. And I was wondering how you feel about being back in the public eye like this again. It's really been a long time since you've done interviews and appeared before the.

[Brian Wilson]

I've. It's just been, it's just been so long that it's such an all so, so, so has so much impact on me. You know, I haven't done this kind of a promotional tour ever since like the early Beach Boy days, you know.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, it's a long time ago.

[Brian Wilson]

It really is. It was like 25 years ago. I guess we were into that, into that. Oh, I'm telling you, it was something.

[Terry Gross]

How are you pacing yourself?

[Brian Wilson]

Well, I'm not smoking cigarettes and I'm not doing things like that for crutches. You know, people sit and have a cigarette break every 10 minutes. Right. Well, I don't do that anymore. I don't smoke cigarettes because cigarettes are bad for me. They give you cancer. Who in the world would want to smoke cigarettes knowing that they give you cancer? You know what I mean?

[Terry Gross]

I would like to end with another selection from your new album, and I want to play One for the Boys, which is an homage to the Beach Boys, where you do all the voices.

[Brian Wilson]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Tell us a little bit about what.

[Brian Wilson]

You'Re doing here on the Voices.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[Brian Wilson]

On that song One for the Boys, it was all sort of a little, little song in tribute to the Beach Boys. And it has no instruments on it, just voices. It had 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 10 different vocal tracks going. I put them on all one at a time and it was like done with the Four Freshmen in mind. It's a tribute to the Four Freshmen and the Beach Boys both, you know, And I was most proud to make that song because it sounds so pretty and I hope people like it.

[Terry Gross]

And you do all the voices on it.

[Brian Wilson]

Yes, I do. I did all the voices on it.

[Terry Gross]

Thank you so much for joining us. And I wish you the best. Thank you.

[Brian Wilson]

One here.

[David Biancooli]

Brian Wilson spoke with Terry Gross in 1988. After a break, we'll listen to another of their conversations from 10 years later. And Ken Tucker reviews two albums by artists influenced by country and folk music, one from newcomer Ken Pomeroy, the other from veteran composer and performer Willie Nelson. Listen, I'm David Biancooli, and this is FRESH air.

[Brian Wilson]

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[Terry Gross]

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[Brian Wilson]

Confidence by matching you with a certified career coach who understands your goals and challenges. This isn't just advice. It's a personalized, results driven approach to uncover hidden strengths, overcome obstacles and accelerate your career growth. Visit Strawberry Me NPR to claim your $50 credit.

[Terry Gross]

Decades ago, Brazilian women made a discovery they could have an abortion without a doctor thanks to a tiny pill. That pill spawned a global movement helping millions of women have safe abortions regardless of the law. Hear that story on the network from NPR's Embedded and Futuro Media. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brian Wilson]

These days, there is a lot of news.

[David Biancooli]

It can be hard to keep up with what it means for you, your family and your community.

[Brian Wilson]

Consider this from NPR as a podcast that helps you make sense of the news. Six days a week, we bring you a deep dive on a story and provide the context, the backstory and analysis.

[David Biancooli]

You need to understand our rapidly changing world. Listen to the Consider this podcast from npr. Let's continue our remembrance of Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson, whose death was announced this week by his family. He was 82 years old. Terry Gross spoke with Brian Wilson again 10 years later in 1998. In the interim, he had parted ways with his former therapist manager, remarried, adopted two babies and just released his first album of new songs in a decade. It was called Imagination and featured some 90 vocal tracks, all of which were sung by Brian Wilson. Terry began by playing a song from the album titled this Is yous Imagination.

[Brian Wilson]

Another car running fast, Another song on the beach. I take a trip through the back when some is way out of beat. I'd rather walk in the park when I need something to do and when I feel all alone. Sometimes I think about you. Take my hand, smile and say don't understand. To look in your eyes and see what you feel and then realize that nothing's for real cause you know it's just your imagination running, running, running, running, running. Your imagination running, running, running, running, running, rolling, running.

[Terry Gross]

Brian Wilson, welcome back to FRESH air. It's a great pleasure to have you here.

Hi, how are you?

This is your first CD of new songs in 10 years. Why now?

Well, because I was a little bit hurt because the first one didn't sell very well. So I kind of felt hurt about that. So I laid off for quite a long time. But in the interim, I wrote a lot of songs with my friends. I have about 45 songs that I've written that we didn't put on the new album.

When you say that you were hurt that the other record didn't do so well, I mean, how exactly did it affect you?

Well, I expected it to be a very big album because it was a good album and it didn't sell very much at all. So I felt kind of hurt by that.

Now, on your new cd, you've recorded all the vocal parts yourself. You do all the voices on it.

Right.

What's your technique for doing that?

Well, the technique is many things. One technique is we do one track and then we do it over again and again and again, four times the same track, reinforcing each note stronger and stronger. Yep.

So you're not singing harmony yet. You're singing the same note on each of these Tracks?

Well, no, we sing harmony, but each note of the harmony has four. Four on the same. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Why is that? Just to make it kind of bigger.

To make it bigger and fatter and nicer sounding? Yeah.

Mm. So it makes it sound almost like a whole curtain of voices. Like a whole background of voices instead of just a couple of people singing harmony.

Yeah, right, exactly.

I want to play another track from the new cd, and this is a song called Happy Days. And I understand this is a song you started many years ago.

Yeah.

When did you start it?

In 1970. I wrote two verses and we recorded it by the Beach Boys and we shelved it. We junked it because it wasn't appropriate music for us.

What was inappropriate about it?

Well, it just didn't sound right. It had the wrong kind of sound for the Beach Boys. It was too much of a departure.

Was it too sad?

Yeah, it was too sad. It really was.

Would you recite one of the verses for us from the early part of the song that you thought was too sad for the Beach Boys?

I once felt so far from life no one could help me, not even my wife. Sad lyrics.

Yeah. I once felt so far from life. You don't feel that way anymore?

No, no. And I feel much a part of life. Yeah.

Why don't I play the song and then we can talk about how you've produced it?

[Brian Wilson]

And.

[Terry Gross]

And as our listeners will hear, it has an unusually discordant beginning. Here it is.

[Brian Wilson]

Only the past way uncertain tomorrow oh, God, the pain that I've been going through Reigning in my heart to my emotional rescue.

I used.

To be so far from life no one could help me not even my.

Wife.

Oh, God, the pain that I've been going through Greatest in my heart Come to my emotional rescue.

[Terry Gross]

That's Happy Days from Brian Wilson's new cd, Imagination. The beginning is so discordant. It's such a different kind of sound for you, both in terms of the vocal harmonies and the music behind the voices. Tell me about why you wanted that sound on this.

I wanted it to sound like something I was going through. I wanted it to depict the mood of my life at that time. And then it did.

It depicted it in the record. It almost sounds like there's a newscast or a radio broadcast mixed into the background.

That was meant to depict a confusion in my life. That was the confusion part of it.

So, as if, like, you were picking up different signals that didn't belong.

Right. Exactly.

Is that what you were feeling then, that you were Hearing things that you shouldn't have been hearing?

Yeah, absolutely.

What kind of things were you hearing?

All voices in my head, auditory hallucinations and stuff like that.

Did that interfere with your music?

No, I was able to isolate the music from the voices.

Tell me more about producing Happy Days and what else was in your thinking about how it should sound?

Well, I wanted it to sound mellow, with a little bit of love, but not too much love, and I wanted it to depict the mood of my life, you know, as my life got happier, the voices got happier.

How has your life changed in the past few years?

Well, it's changed quite dramatically with my new wife and my new babies. I have a whole new lease on life now. It's just wonderful.

I think you got married in 1995.

Yeah.

And you've adopted two children since then.

Right? Right.

What's it like for you being a father the second time around? Your daughters are grown now and are famous in their own right. Yeah.

Right. Well, I wasn't a very good dad to my original daughters. I wasn't really a good dad to them. But I'm a lot closer to my new babies now than I ever was. It's like a brand new world has opened up now.

Also, another thing that's changed in your life is that you're no longer in therapy with Eugene Landy.

Right.

And I'm wondering how that relationship ended up splitting up.

Well, he was forced to leave because he had control of my life for like nine and a half years and that was a long time to go.

His relationship with you is very controversial. Several people in your family thought that he was taking advantage of you financially and controlling you psychologically, and they even sued him because of that. So how has it changed your life to no longer be in therapy with him?

Well, it's made it a little bit easier for me. Not quite as hard to live day by day, you know, day to day. But I miss him, you know, in some ways, too.

What do you miss about him?

His personality.

Are you still in any form of therapy now?

No, no. I have a doctor. I see a psychiatrist. Yeah, I do.

[David Biancooli]

Brian Wilson speaking to Terry Gross in 1998. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR on NPR's Through Line.

[Terry Gross]

The firemen kept shouting to them not to jump, but they had no other choice. Frances Perkins witnessed the Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire that changed everything. She was the first woman in a U.S. cabinet, created Social Security and the 40 hour work week.

[Brian Wilson]

The woman behind the New Deal on.

[Terry Gross]

NPR's Throughline where you get your podcasts.

[Brian Wilson]

Fall in love with new music every Friday at All songs considered. That's NPR's music recommendation. Podcast Fridays are where we spend our whole show sharing all the greatest new releases of the week. Make the hunt for new music a.

[F]

Part of your life again.

[Brian Wilson]

Tap into new music Friday from All.

[Terry Gross]

Songs Considered, available wherever you get your podcasts. It all starts with listening to the person in front of you and the person you'll never meet, to the person living a story and the journalist who helps helps you see it in a new light. The NPR network is built on listening with microphones in every region. So were there anytime a voice or sound demands to be heard, hear stories in the first person, hear the bigger picture. On npr, you're seen so differently now than you were when the Beach Boys got started. You know, in the 60s, I think a lot of people saw the Beach Boys as, you know, great performers. But, you know, there was a teenage act that sang about surfing. And now, of course, you're seen as one of the great geniuses of rock and roll, both as a. As a songwriter, as a performer, and as a producer. And I'm wondering how that change in how your scene has affected you and how you see yourself.

I see myself as primarily a singer, and after that, maybe a producer and a writer, songwriter. But my main forte in life is singing, of course.

Now, why do you see yourself primarily as a singer? I mean, you've written so many great songs and.

I know, I know. But I just, I feel the need to sing more than I do anything else, you know, it's kind of like that.

So when you're not working on a new record, when you're not in the studio, are you still singing a lot?

Oh, yeah. I sing every day at the piano. I go to my piano at least once a day and single.

Mm. And do you always sing your own songs? Do you ever sing songs by other people?

I sing all kinds of songs. I sing songs from Phil Spector for myself and other people.

What are some of the songs that you particularly love right now by other people that we might be surprised that you like?

Oh, I like Burt Bacharach, Walk on by.

Uh huh.

I like Phil Spector, Walking in the Rain. Walking in the Rain. Records like that, really cool records.

Did you feel like you learned things from Burt Bacharach's production, too?

Yeah, actually, I did. I learned about chord changes and melodic thought. And Chuck Berry, of course, was probably the biggest influence on my melody writing.

The Beach Boys without you being part of them. Have managed to, you know, continue their career by singing their old songs and performance. You never made yourself into an oldies act?

No.

And I'm wondering, you know, on the one hand it's easy to do that, you know, to kind of get by on work you've already done, songs you've already written. On the other hand, you always have new songs that are going through your head. New songs that you want to write and record. Do you ever wish that you were the kind of person who could be happy playing the old songs?

Yeah, all the time. I think of that all the time. I'm wondering why I can't be happy with those old songs. It's just a strange feeling. I mean, it's like a nostalgia thing, you know, it's just. I need those old songs a lot. I really do.

What is your current favorite of your old songs?

I like California Girls the most. I think I'm partial to California Girls.

Why is it?

I don't know, I think the sound of the record, the way the record starts out, the choruses in the record I thought were really good.

Why don't I give that a spin? But before I do, would you tell us a little bit about producing that record?

Yeah. I was 23 years old and I went in the studio and I said, I'm gonna cut a number one record. So before I went to the studio, I went to my piano and I said, I want to cut a shuffle beat like the. Like that. And I kept working and working until I got a ba ba da ba da bass line. And then all of a sudden I just. The songs just fell together like magic. It fell together.

Did you write the lyric for it, Mike Love?

And I did, yeah.

Uh huh. And were you going through a period of girl watching, so to speak?

Not really going through a period. We've always been that way. Mike and I have always been girl watchers.

Uh huh.

You know, so made it easy to write those lyrics.

Right. Okay, well, let's hear it. California girls.

[Brian Wilson]

Well east coast girls are hip I really dig those styles they wear. And the southern girls with the witch they talk, they knock me out when I'm down there. The midwest farmers daughters really make you feel alright. And the northern girls with the way they kiss. They keep their boyfriends warm at night. I wish they all could be in California. Wish they all could be in California. I wish they all could be California. You.

[Terry Gross]

That's the Beach Boys. And my guest is Brian Wilson. You had a chance to remix some of your old music for me with Pet Sounds. With Pet Sounds? Yeah, because there was a new CD box of that that included a remix, mono version, a new stereo mix, as well as outtakes. What was it like for you to rework old music of yours?

Was it like. It was like a big nostalgia trip, a sentimental trip. That really took a lot out of me to go through that. It was probably the best album I ever produced. So I was very into it.

What were you going through in your life while you were producing Pet Sounds?

I was going through a happy time. It was just a very happy time in my life.

What was happy about it?

It was very, well, I was very happy about the Beach Boys success and I was very much in tune with the competitive aspect of life and the business. And just from there I rambled on.

You know, what were the new techniques that you tried in the studio for Pet Sounds?

I tried to mix different instruments together to make a third sound, like an organ and a piano mixed together to make a third sound. I just did a lot of mixing of instruments together and I used echo very well.

Is there a track that you think is your favorite from the record?

Yeah, I like Caroline. No, the best.

That's a great song too. Yeah. Brian Wilson, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.

Thank you very much.

[Brian Wilson]

Where did your long where is the girl I used to know? How could you lose that happy glow? Oh, Caroline O who took that look away? I remember how you used to say you'd never change but that's not true oh, Caroline, you break my heart I don't wanna go and cry it's so sad Watch a sweet thing I'll carry my Could I ever find in you again?

[David Biancooli]

Brian Wilson, speaking to Terry Gross In 1998, the founder of the Beach Boys and composer of their most memorable music has died at age 82. Mike Love noted his cousin's past on the Beach Boys account on Instagram by writing, Brian Wilson wasn't just the heart of the Beach Boys, he was the soul of our sound. Coming up, rock critic Ken Tucker reviews two new albums from artists steeped in country and folk music. One's a 22 year old newcomer, Ken Pomeroy. The other is a 92 year old old timer, Willie Nelson. This is FRESH AIR. Keeping up with the news can feel like a 24 hour job. Luckily, it is our job. Every hour on the NPR News now podcast, we take the latest, most important stories happening and we package them into five minute episodes so you can easily squeeze them in between meetings. And on your way to that thing, listen to the NPR News Now Podcast.

[Terry Gross]

Now. Do you ever look at political headlines and go, huh? Well, that's exactly why the NPR Politics podcast exists. We're experts not just on politics, but in making politics make sense. Every episode, we decode everything that happened in Washington and help you figure out what it all means. Give politics a chance with the NPR Politics Podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Biancooli]

Our rock critic Ken Tucker has been listening to new music, looking for something that's not just entertainment. He thinks he's founded in albums by two musicians, both of whom are influenced by country and folk music, but who otherwise couldn't be more different. One is a relative newcomer, 22 year old Ken Pomeroy. The other is a relatively old pro, 92 year old Willie Nelson. Here are Ken's reviews of Nelson's oh what a Beautiful World, an album of covers of songs by Rodney Crowell, and of Pomeroy's Cruel Joke. He starts with Ken Pomeroy, Gray skies.

[Brian Wilson]

Birds that don't fly Hoping for a better life Dear Stealing grass from the hills Showing all the feelings you hide.

[F]

It'S easy to adopt the attitude that pop music is primarily entertainment, a pleasant distraction from whatever's going on in your life or in the world around you. Sometimes, however, you come across songs and performers who offer more than entertainment. They provide comfort, nourishment, reassurance. One of these artists is ken Pomeroy, the 22 year old woman whose voice began this review. Pomeroy has just released an album called Cruel Joke. She's from Oklahoma, a Cherokee Native American, and her songs about farms and cowboys, sung with an acoustic country twang, mark her as one smart high plains drifter.

[Terry Gross]

Broke you like a mirror into pieces.

[Brian Wilson]

A few of me staring back in disbelief Honey I swear I didn't mean to Never love someone like I loved.

[Terry Gross]

You.

[Brian Wilson]

Playing who care boy put your hand in mine I get lost for days and years.

[F]

In that song, Flannel Cowboy Pomeroy seeks forgiveness from someone she wronged in no small part because she believes they were meant to be together. It's typical of her approach on this album, which is full of complex emotions and urgent desires. Her narrators don't want to become isolated. They're not loners. They hope to quell fears through relationships that only strengthen during difficult times.

[Brian Wilson]

You're talking to out they can hear you way up in the sky.

[Terry Gross]

With.

[Brian Wilson]

The days getting darker Coin.

[Terry Gross]

Dry on.

[Brian Wilson]

And there's nothing new to say My mother keeps lyin saying there's no other.

[Terry Gross]

Way.

[Brian Wilson]

Send me back to where I was before I knew how Take me what I am no more the devil siding in the Bible bell the devil siding in the Bible bell I like.

[F]

The way Pomeroy's plain spoken verses open up dialogue with the listener. The conversational tone is something Willie Nelson perfected decades ago. It's what's made him perhaps the most intimate pop music interpreter since Frank Sinatra. These days, age has shortened his breath and thinned out the timbre of his voice, but it's still a quiet miracle that draws you in close, as on his version of Rodney Kral's song what Kind of Love.

[Terry Gross]

I'll give you the best I can give you baby that's.

[Brian Wilson]

All I can give.

[Terry Gross]

And we'll live.

[Brian Wilson]

It the best we can live it, baby as long as we live.

[Terry Gross]

What.

[Brian Wilson]

Kind of love never turns you down? What kind of love lifts you off the ground Turns your life around? What kind of love makes you go out in the wind and the driving rain? What kind of love runs through your heart With a pleasure so close to pain? What kind of love only this love.

I have.

[F]

In the past Nelson has recorded other album long salutes to some of his favorite songwriters and singers, such as Ray Price and Roger Miller and Lefty Frizzell. This one feels a little different. The best moments here are when he takes hold of some of Rodney Krall's more recent songs. Not the hits. These are reflective, contemplative compositions like Ken Pomeroy's work. It's about appreciating people and rekindling connections.

[Brian Wilson]

Sometimes I think about leaving.

[Terry Gross]

As if.

[Brian Wilson]

I had someplace to go I might even crank up the engine and roll down the street, street just for show Nobody said it was easy but that doesn't mean it ain't right I don't want nobody else with me when it comes time to call it a night so far I've kept every promise.

[Terry Gross]

And.

[Brian Wilson]

This I'll continue to do I love you like nobody's business and I wouldn't be me without you.

[F]

There'S a 70 year age difference between Ken Pomeroy and Willie Nelson, but I hear a similarity in their goals to resist despair, to get us to look up from our phones and look into someone's eyes. They're both making beautiful music. For tumultuous times, Ken Tucker reviewed oh.

[David Biancooli]

What a Beautiful World by Willie Nelson and Cruel Joke by Ken Pomeroy on Monday's show. Journalist Elizabeth Brunig joins us to talk about her haunting new Atlantic cover story about serving as a witness to state sanctioned executions. We'll talk about what she saw, what it means and how covering the death penalty has shaped her faith. I hope you can join us. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman and Julian Hertzfeld. For Terry Gross and Tanya Moseley, I'm David Biancooli.

[Terry Gross]

Like the climate, our idea of home is constantly changing. So NPR is devoting an entire week to rethinking home with stories and conversations about the search for solutions, from planting trees to reducing energy use to disaster proofing your house. Explore stories that hit close to home during this year's Climate Solutions Week. Visit npr.org climateweek Hola. It's Sarah Gonzalez at Planet Money. When we say we want you to.

[David Biancooli]

Understand the economy, sure, we mean tariffs.

[Terry Gross]

And global supply chains and interest rates. But also, we shot a satellite into.

[David Biancooli]

Space, we made our own vodka, became a record label, made a comic book, all to help you make better sense.

[Terry Gross]

Of the world around you.

[David Biancooli]

Listen to the Planet Money podcast from NPR.