A (4:19)

David Biancooli is a TV historian and Fresh airs TV critic. He'll be back later in the show to review a new documentary about actor John Candy. Now we're going to hear the interview I recorded with Diane Keaton in 1997. We talked about several of her films. We began with a clip from Marvin's Room, which had just been released and earned her an Oscar nomination. Keaton and Meryl Streep starred as sisters with opposite temperaments. Keaton played Bessie, who has dedicated her life to taking care of her father ever since a stroke left him bedridden. Streep played Lee, who's cut herself off from the family to establish an independent life. After Bessie is diagnosed with leukemia, Lee returns to visit for the first time in years. Keaton's character, Bessie, confronts her.

B (5:10)

Why can't you take dad and Ruth? I don't think so. You could move down here. You could have the house. No, I got Hank to think about. He's very unhappy there. Of course he's unhappy. If he were happy, he wouldn't be there. You could have him transferred. You could find a very nice place for him here. You could have the whole house. You could have the sunshine. You could find work down here. Lee.

A (5:29)

No. Why not?

B (5:31)

Just no. Well, then give me one. Good, because I don't want to. I made this decision once already when Daddy had his first Stroke. I made this decision then. I was not gonna waste my life. Do you think I've wasted my life? Of course not. I can't imagine a better way to have spent. Well, then we both made the right decision. What decision? Dad got sick, and I came down to help out for a little while.

A (5:51)

Your role in Marvin's Room is really the opposite of the kind of role we first got to know you from in your Woody Allen movies. Your character of Bessie is somebody who, first of all, dresses in very kind of Kmart type fashions. Literally.

B (6:06)

Yeah.

A (6:07)

Lives in a very sheltered world, is steadfast in her devotion to her family and. And has very little of a life outside of that. She's the kind of person who doesn't leave home, has never left home. And you're so convincing in both of those kind of roles, but this one somehow seems really far from your own life to me. Is it?

B (6:28)

Oh, yes. I would say, yes, it is quite far from my life. No, there's clearly really nothing in common between Bessie and I, except probably just this intense identification with her for me when I read it. So I wanted to give it a try. Sort of like, you know, after I did Annie Hall, I did looking for Mr. Goodbar. And that was also something. Well, what. I mean, why would anyone want to play that after playing Annie Hall? But the truth of the matter is that I was very attracted to the darker side of that woman. You know, that she had two lives. This friendly, nice, outgoing teacher of the deaf, and then this. This woman who haunted the bars looking for men and dangerous men and paid the price. I think that when you're an actress, you're just intensely attracted to projects with substance. And I really felt that this had substance, besides the fact that it was also very well written in the humor department also.

A (7:36)

Mm. But this is a character who's kind of given up her own independence and her own personal pursuits to take care of her, her father and her aunt. Now, when you're an actress, you have to be the opposite in a way. You have to be selfish in a professional sense. I mean, you have to kind of make a lot of sacrifices to pursue your career, to really obsess on roles and things like that. So what did you draw on for this character who was so different from you?

B (8:05)

I think what I drew on was my wish to play somebody like that. I really don't do, you know, and also, I think, of course, family. There's no question that my most intense feelings of affection are with my family. So I think family and Also the chance to try and play something where I'm a giving person instead of a driven, ambitious person like I am in life.

A (8:35)

Right. You know what I find so interesting about you? As I said, I think you're really convincing in so many different kinds of roles. And in Marvin's room, you're playing a character that is really very honest. Nothing is couched in irony. And many of your other characters, well, particularly in the Woody Allen movies, there's so many things that have quotation marks around them. And I guess I'm interested in what it's like to inhabit both of those worlds through your roles. You know, the character who live in a world of irony and then the character who does.

B (9:14)

It's easier for me to be in the world of the ironic because it sort of comes more naturally to me. I had trouble with this part regarding certain primary scenes, and I'm talking about the part of Bessie in Marvin's room. I would go up to the director and say, do you know that last scene. I don't know if you saw this, Terry, but the last scene where. Well, obviously you did. You had to probably. Anyway, the last scene I did, I have to say to Meryl, I'm so lucky to have loved so much. I'm so lucky. I really literally couldn't say that because it's dead on, flat on the truth. The feeling of the moment, the depth of that moment. And I remember the director saying, no, Diane, you have to say. You have to say those lines. And I was going, no, because listen, let me tell you something. As far as I'm concerned, if somebody called me up, if somebody. Doctor called me up and said, guess what? Nothing working. And, yeah, you are going to die. I couldn't sit there and get down on the floor and pick up those pills and say to my sister, I'm so lucky to have loved so much. I'm so lucky. I said I would be terrified. No, no, no, that's not the intention. Because really, the heart of the piece is in that, you know, it's right there in those lines at the end there. And I was fighting it, and Meryl Streep came up into my room and she told me also in a very kind way, that this is someplace I have to try and go and imagine. Of course, I can't imagine it. But on the other hand, you have to kind of get swept away. And one of the reasons I think that I was helped was, of course, because of Meryl. Because somehow being and looking into Meryl's face, she just Kind of lifted me up and helped me go there. But frankly, it's not easy for me. It's just not easy. It's hard to imagine being that kind of a person. I guess I'm shallow.

A (11:03)

No, but let me ask you this. How do you decide with lines like that whether there's something that doesn't ring true about the script or whether it's just that you're a different kind of person than the character?

B (11:15)

No, I think that it did ring true with the script. I think I did have to say those lines because I think that that's the kind of person she is at the core, that she can leave it and she can accept the fact that she's going to be leaving everybody permanently. So in that case, I really think as I was just begging for help and I got help in another scene, you know, I was also saying to the director, listen, this is overwritten. This is a case where I thought, you know, I put on my director's hat.

A (11:49)

Ha, ha.

B (11:50)

And I had to say these lines about this boyfriend that I had and how he went swimming and how I saw him drown in front of my eyes. And I was just. This is ridiculous. I can't say this. There's no way I'm going to say this, because, frankly, it sounds fake. It sounds like a speech. And again, Jerry Zaks came up to me and said, no, Diane, you have to do it. You have to try to do this and make it real for you. I just said this. Impossible. And of course, you know, I did it. And you know something? I like it when I see it. I actually like that. I thought it was funny. I somehow managed to get through it. I don't know. I think that I'm afraid. I think I'm kind of a chicken actress. And I think that people really have to keep saying, you can do it. You can do it. And it really tells you. I mean, as an actress, it really. It informs me how much I desperately need a director who cares. It's so important to have somebody watching me, you know? I mean, you constantly are battling with yourself when you're acting in a part. At least I am, because it's just not that easy for me.

A (12:51)

It must be interesting now that you're directing more, too, even in the director when you perform. Yeah, but now you can act as your own director in a way. And you're wearing two masks.

B (13:00)

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, Terry. No, no. No way. I don't think you really have. I'm not one of those people who I have a third eye or anything. I mean, when I'm acting, I'm acting and I need help. And when I'm directing, I'm watching, I'm looking, I'm observing. And it's entirely different, and it's an entirely different place. And I really don't feel that the two live together. I mean, for me, I can't. I have to be feeling it, or otherwise I'm nothing. And if I'm not. And if I'm not feeling. See, if I'm not feeling it, then I can watch. But how can I watch when I'm trying to be there? I'm the person who. They just said, you know, you're gonna die. I have to be there. I don't have a good enough imagination, which is why it's harder for me. Like, when I see Meryl Streep, I go, oh, my God. She's got everything. She's got a brilliant imagination. She has a great depth of emotional life. She has this amazing ability, and this also goes for Leonardo DiCaprio, to mimic and mime and do voices and accents and all this. And she does it in her life. Plus, she has a great conceptual mind. It's just a little bit. Not a little bit. It's a lot harder for me.

A (14:09)

Well, you know, you're not doing.

B (14:11)

I think, naturally. You know what? I'm gonna get back to answering your question. I think that I'm more inclined to live comfortably in the world of humor.

A (14:22)

Aha. Than drama. Yeah.

B (14:24)

Oh, well, I mean, everyone's told me that too, so I think it's true.

A (14:28)

But you're very convincing in drama. You really are.

B (14:31)

Yeah, because I really beat myself up to get there.

A (14:36)

Diane Keaton, your mother was a beauty queen? Yes.

B (14:39)

No, no. Here's what she was. Although she is very beautiful, by the way. No, she was Mrs. Los Angeles. That's entirely different. It means that when I was growing up in the 50s, we lived in Highland park in Los Angeles, and I rem. I was about 8 or 9, and my mother, you know, became Mrs. Highland Park. And I remember sitting down in the stage and watching her being crowned Mrs. Highland Park. And it was that she was the perfect homemaker to win Mrs. Highland Park. She kept making these chocolate cakes every day that we had to eat. And this was, you know, this was what she was. And then she went to be Mrs. Los Angeles because she made a good spaghetti or something. I don't know. And they came around at, like, 7 in the morning, the judges, and looked at our house which was insane to see if she was in Neat Homemaker. And so that was very exciting for about. I think it lasted for about four months, but then she made it to the finalists of Mrs. California. But then she didn't get Mrs. California. She was too good for him. She was too good for him.

A (15:41)

What did she win when she won Mrs. Highland Park?

B (15:44)

Oh, appliances. Oh, please. You know, just the best appliances ever. And, you know, luggage and all those great things.

A (15:51)

Did you want to be a happy homemaker? No.

B (15:55)

No, I did not want to be a happy homemaker. Uh, that did not appeal to me. But I did want to go on stage. I saw that. That was something that did appeal to me. There she was in the theater, and I saw the curtain open, and there was my mother, and I thought, hmm, I think I like that for myself.

A (16:10)

It's funny. So you. You kind of got the wrong message here.

C (16:12)

I did.

B (16:13)

I got the total wrong message. How?

C (16:15)

Like life.

A (16:16)

Yeah. She was presented as a picture of domesticity. And you interpreted that as show business.

B (16:22)

Oh, yeah. Leave it to me.

A (16:25)

One of your early roles was in Hair. And every profile I've read of you, every written profile.

B (16:31)

I didn't take off my clothes.

A (16:32)

Exactly. Every profile mentions that during the nude scenes or nude scenes in hair, that when everybody else was naked, you were wearing a body stocking. And I couldn't help but wonder if the cast.

B (16:41)

No, I wasn't wearing a body stocking. No, no. The situation was that we were all under this huge tarp or something doing. You know, and we were lying there, and there would be holes in the tarp, and people would stand up at the appropriate.

A (16:53)

Mom.

B (16:54)

And you sort of just stand naked. That was how that was. And I just remember lying under the tarp and seeing all my friends get naked over the course of time. And I just didn't want to do it. I just didn't seem worth it to me at the time. I didn't want to do it standing naked in the dark and getting cold. You know, it just didn't seem like fun. That's the only reason I didn't do it. It just, you know, it wasn't worth it.

A (17:18)

So how did you avoid doing it?

B (17:20)

I didn't. It wasn't a requirement by any means. It was optional, and it was suggested. And you would get $50 extra. No, it's a money gig. It was a money gig like everything else.

A (17:32)

That's funny. So did anybody in the cast kind of make fun of the people who were not willing to take their clothes off?

B (17:39)

Not really, but it was sort of get behind the spirit of it all. But, hey, frankly, I was, you know, I just graduated from the Neighborhood Playhouse and I really wasn't a hippie. I never was a hippie. I was basically always an actress. And so I just didn't really get behind it in terms of the spirit of the moment. Besides that, we were all in show business. I never believed that it was like, you know, peace, love and happiness.

A (18:04)

Now, I want to ask you about your early films with Woody Allen. You first worked with him in the Broadway production of Play It Again, Sam.

B (18:10)

Which he wrote and also starred in Hair. When I was in Hair, I auditioned for Play It Again Sam. Oh, which is interesting.

A (18:18)

What was the audition like?

B (18:21)

You know, what I remember about it, of course, was being terrified. Typical. And him, I remember that he got on stage with me and I remember being very attracted to him because I already was attracted to him because he was Woody Allen even at that point. We used to see him on the Tonight Show. He was very funny and really appealing person. And I never thought I would get the part.

A (18:43)

Why not?

B (18:44)

Because there were a lot of other people auditioning and why me? I didn't know. But anyway, I did.

A (18:50)

When you started working with him, did you relate to his brand of New York Jewish neurosis humor?

B (18:58)

Oh, of course. I'd seen him on the Tonight Show. I thought he was hilarious. Oh, sure. Who didn't? Do you remember? I mean, do you remember when he was coming up? Oh, yeah, he was. I mean, you just fell in love with him or. I did.

A (19:11)

Anyway, Bina, the movies are based in part on the tension between your background and his background. And you're always cast, you know, in his movies as usually cast in his movies as like the shiksa, the one who's not Jewish. And so there's this kind of interplay between, you know, the Jewish neurotic East Coaster and the woman who's not from the east coast, who's neuroses are kind of different and not Jewish. Did that tension come from real life?

B (19:45)

Oh, I think so. I would say sure. At this point, yes.

A (19:51)

Did you see yourself differently through his eyes, through the character that he created for you?

B (20:00)

Are you talking about Annie Hall?

A (20:01)

Sure, let's talk about Annie Hall. Let's focus it and talk about Annie Hall.

B (20:04)

I mean, I think that frankly, when I read the script, I just flipped. I knew it was great and it was very easy just to be. But I didn't. I didn't really think that it was per se. Me although there were these characters, they were similar in feel but not in specific. You know, the actions, the events were not the same at all.

A (20:29)

We're listening Back to my 1997 interview with Diane Keaton. She's died at the age of 79. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH air. Rhinoplasty, the humble nose job.

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A (22:04)

We're remembering Diane Keaton, who's died at the age of 79. Keaton starred in the classic films Annie hall, for which she won an Oscar, and the Godfather trilogy, as well as looking for Mr. Goodbar. Red's Mrs. Soffel, father of the bride, the First Wives Club, and something's gotta give. Here's a scene from Annie hall in which she co starred with Woody Allen, who also directed the film. She and Woody Allen's character had just been introduced to each other on the tennis court. Now they're preparing to leave.

B (22:36)

You play very well.

A (22:37)

Oh, yeah. So do you.

B (22:39)

Oh, God. What a dumb thing to say, right? I mean, you say it, you play well, and then right away I have to say, you play well.

A (22:47)

Oh.

B (22:47)

Oh, God, Annie.

A (22:49)

Well.

B (22:50)

Oh, well. La dee da la la dee da la la.

C (22:55)

Yeah.

B (22:57)

You want a lift? Oh, why.

A (23:01)

You got a car?

B (23:03)

No, I was gonna take a cab. Oh, no, I have A car? You have a car? So I don't understand if you have a car. So then why did you say, do you have a car?

A (23:17)

Like you want on a lift?

B (23:19)

I don't.

A (23:20)

I don't. Geez.

B (23:21)

I don't know. I wasn't.

A (23:24)

It's.

B (23:25)

I got this VW out there. What a jerk. Yeah. Would you like a lift?

A (23:33)

Sure.

B (23:34)

Which way are you going?

A (23:35)

Me?

B (23:36)

Downtown. I'm going uptown. Oh, well, you know, I'm going uptown, too. No way. You just said you were going downtown.

A (23:43)

Yeah, well. But I can. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

B (23:46)

I can go uptown, too. I live in Uptown. But what the hell? I mean, it'd be nice having company, you know? I mean, I hate driving alone.

A (23:53)

Now, the inflections that you used in Annie Hall, a voice that's often speaking in irony, a voice that has a lot of insecurity in it as well as humor. How did you come up with that inflection?

B (24:08)

Well, that. That. I didn't even come up with it. I just delivered it. It was just there. I think that was something that he trusted and enjoyed. Did you read that profile on him in the New Yorker?

A (24:20)

No.

B (24:20)

That was interesting, because Diane Wiese was talking about him, and if something isn't working, he's very simple about why it isn't working. Well, with Annie Hall. When I was doing Annie hall, everything seemed to be working. He just didn't question it. We were going with kind of the spontaneous impulses that we were feeling at the time in those scenes, and we just let it rip. I think Diane Wiese was saying, you know, in Bullets Over Broadway when she won the Academy Award, that that character wasn't happening. And he called her up and he said, it's no good. And she didn't know what to do. She didn't know. And he said. He came up with an idea and he said, think it's your voice. Let's just lower it. Do you believe it? It's that simple. And then she had it. She had the character, and it was amazing. I mean, she's amazing anyway. But what I'm saying is it was a very simple solution to what a lot of people would have made. A very complicated problem. Do you see what I mean?

A (25:14)

Yeah, yeah.

B (25:15)

He just cuts through all the time in every way.

A (25:19)

Was your inflections in your voice in Annie Hall a voice that you really spoke in, or is it the voice of the character that you found and what was your process of finding it?

B (25:30)

No, I think I spoke in that character at that Point in my life.

A (25:32)

Ah, okay.

B (25:33)

I think that's the way I talked.

A (25:35)

Did you say la dee da?

B (25:36)

Never. Never did say that, though, that he wrote.

A (25:39)

Was that on the page? I mean, if I saw la di da on the page, I think, oh, man, this is never going to work. And of course, it really works. Did you think that?

B (25:46)

I think it's because it worked, because I think that there was this. It was the way we were working. In other words, it's how he directs, which is to loosen it up. Just to loosen the whole thing up and just fly with it, and then it worked. I know. That doesn't seem like a very good line, does it? La de da.

A (26:04)

Well, it wouldn't to me on the page. It really would not, but it does in the movie.

B (26:08)

It worked. Yeah.

A (26:10)

Now, I want to ask you about the Godfather movies. You're in all three of them now, particularly in the first two movies. You were the woman in a world of men.

B (26:20)

And I have to laugh. It's such a funny. Yes, I was. I was the woman in a world of men.

A (26:27)

And that's really brought home at the end of the first Godfather movie, where Alfred.

B (26:31)

It's a great moment, isn't it?

A (26:32)

Slams the door in your face and makes it really clear that now that he's the head of the family, he's the head you're gonna be shut out of. A lot of his life.

B (26:40)

Oh, it's a world I know nothing about. Do you know, when we were making it, it was just. I didn't know what was going on, and I just did feel left out. I really felt that way. And I also felt. I never understood why he cast me in that, ever. I still don't understand why he cast me in that. I never thought, you know, at that point in my life, people viewed me as being kind of kooky. You know, I was like the kooky actress, and he cast me in that role. Serious?

A (27:05)

Yes. Insensible, down to earth. Perfect.

B (27:08)

I'm telling you, it's nothing. I never got it. And he never. I don't know what made him pick me. That was a lucky break.

A (27:17)

So in what ways did you feel maybe kind of left out or the outsider on the Godfather sets?

B (27:25)

I think in every way, I felt the outsider. There was nobody that really became my friend on those movies, I guess. You know, I really.

A (27:33)

What about Al Pacino, though?

B (27:34)

You had a relationship with him, but not as. I mean, it wasn't like we palled out.

A (27:40)

We weren't.

B (27:40)

Do you know what I mean? He was very private and separate from me. And in the first one, I really didn't know him very well. And I think he was also overwhelmed by the enormity of his part. And he was so profoundly, I think, great in that movie. I think when he has to murder for the first time, I think that's a very amazing performance he gave. So he was really a loner. He was really involved with that part. He was separate from the other guys, I felt. And he was in the movie, too, but I just didn't know what the hell was going on. I was, what, 23? I didn't know anything about movies. I was overwhelmed by the entire. The entire enterprise. I really was.

A (28:28)

What did you have to do for the audition?

B (28:30)

Read with a lot of different guys. I read with Jimmy Khan. They couldn't decide on Al Pacino. They just couldn't decide. They didn't know what to do. I think Francis Heart was with Al Pacino, but a lot of people wanted Jimmy Khan. But there was a group of guys that I read with, and they just kept reading me with them.

A (28:46)

My guest is Diane Keaton. Here she is as Kay Corleone with Al Pacino as Michael Corleone in a scene from Godfather 2. Their marriage is on the rocks, and she's just had what he assumes was a miscarriage.

B (28:58)

I'll change. I've learned that I have the strength to change. And you'll forget about this miscarriage and we'll have another child. And we'll go on. You and I will go on.

A (29:16)

Oh. Oh, Michael. Michael, you are blind.

B (29:24)

It wasn't a miscarriage. It was an abortion. An abortion, Michael, just like our marriage is an abortion. Something that's unholy and evil. I didn't want your son, Michael. I wouldn't bring another one of your sons into this world. It was an abortion, Michael. It was a son. A son. And I had it killed. Because this must all end. I know now that it's over. I knew it then. There would be no way, Michael, no way you could ever forgive me. Not with this Sicilian thing that's been going on for 2000.

A (30:25)

You won't take my children.

B (30:28)

I will. You won't take my children. You're my children, too.

A (30:33)

We'll get back to our interview with Diane Keaton after a break. This is Fresh air.

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A (31:46)

Now. You've been in films that are just kind of landmarks in American film history now, and you've also been in some really fine films that haven't become as famous. And I'd like you to choose one of those films that you particularly like and would like to call people's attention to.

B (32:03)

Oh, I don't know. You pick it. I can't pick what's good. I don't know.

A (32:06)

Well, I like your performance a lot in Mrs. Sofl, where you play the wife of a prison guard who ends up falling in love with one of the prisoners and helps him escape. And it's just a very interesting performance.

B (32:19)

I was so excited by that part. I wanted that so bad. I was after Jill Gillian Armstrong, the director for so many years. I kept trying to snatch her up and get her to do something with me. I was constantly on her. And finally she came up with something, and it was this. It was her idea. She loved this true story. And I was so excited. And the whole thing was just kind of a thrilling experience. And plus, it was the first time in my life where I started watching the director. I was looking at what she was doing because I started to have little thing, you know, little inklings of expanding myself. And so I took kind of a. I had a notebook of her shots, and I'd write down her shots to try to understand what she was doing, because I think she's a wonderful director, and I think she's a very visual director.

A (33:03)

When you started directing, or maybe even now when you direct, are you or have you ever been shy or uncomfortable about assuming the power one needs to assume in order to direct?

B (33:16)

Oh, yeah. Oh, that's so obvious a yes. Yeah. No question about it. I mean, it's not my way, but it's the desire to do it that overrides the fear of saying to somebody, that's not good. We've got to do it again. I mean, can you imagine saying that to somebody like Annie MacDowell? And I did it. I didn't think I could, but I did.

A (33:44)

Did you have to find a different voice to use? I mean, the voice that you're most famous for in terms of movie roles is that voice of being unsure. And you can't. I don't think you can really speak with that voice when you're trying to be confident in giving directions to other people. Especially like very sensitive actors and actresses who might be wounded by criticism.

B (34:04)

I think actors know when they're not toeing the line. I believe in the instincts of the actors, and I believe if you cast it correctly, if you have the privilege to cast it correctly, because that's not so easy. Casting is a very, very, very important thing in a movie. Movies don't get made without the right cast, as you know. So if you get the right cast, they know if they're not delivering and if they believe in you as an audience, because really, as a director, that's what you are. You're their audience. You're their parent. You're the person who's watching them and judging whether or not they're giving you what they can give you. And if they trust you as an audience member, I think you don't have to say much except, let's do it again. And I just. I need it. I need more or. I don't think it's about delving for me. I'm not clearly, you know, somebody who wants to sit down and talk about a part. I have to trust their instincts and believe in them and give them as much freedom, but also let them know that I'm pushing them, that I'm there to push them, and that I'm there to see when they're not giving me what they can give. And I kind of. That's how I did it.

A (35:10)

Now, I want to ask you about the success of First Wives Club. One of the issues that's approached in a comic way in First Wives Club is the issue of plastic surgery.

B (35:18)

Oh, there we go. I love it. This is my favorite topic.

A (35:22)

Is it really?

B (35:23)

Well, of course. I mean, it's just so big for all us girls out there who are over 40.

A (35:30)

Well, there's so many pressures in the entertainment industry.

B (35:33)

Oh, give me a break.

A (35:34)

To have. And I really understand why some actresses feel like they have no choice.

B (35:39)

My impression is, but how can you play here, here's my feeling. How can you be an authentic character? Unless of course you're playing an inauthentic. I mean, how can you be a real woman, age 60, playing a part of a woman, let's say in the south, who's naive and doesn't know a lot? How can you play that part if you've had a facelift? You can't.

A (36:00)

Thank you.

B (36:01)

There's so many things that are taken away from you. And why would you want to play a part when you're younger? Because you're not younger. You can't be younger. So what is the point of. In other words, what I'm saying is this is what I am now. How can I be something else? You just can't be younger. I'm just telling you, no one can play younger. I don't believe it for one second. I don't believe it.

A (36:22)

May I say thank you? I feel that, you know, watch me though.

B (36:26)

Watch me. Next month I'll have a facelift. I tell you, I'll come over there, you'll see me tell you what happened to her and I'll be smiling. That look, that sort of mask look.

A (36:34)

No, but I feel like it's a self perpetuating standard that the more women who do give in under pressure and have plastic surgery, the more pressure everybody else becomes under too. And the more everybody feels like they have no choice. You're right. You're right.

B (36:45)

You're absolutely right. It's a tough call. And I admire those women who don't look at Jessica Tandy. There was a face for you. She never touched her face. Look at that face. That's great.

A (36:57)

I'm wondering if you still sing. You started your career as a singer, both cabaret and rock. You sang in Annie Hall. Do you still sing?

B (37:07)

You know, I used to take singing lessons. I took singing lessons for like 10 years from this woman, Janet Frank out of New York, who I love, who's just a wonderful woman. I think I just was so in love with music. I was never a great singer, but Janet taught me a way to approach a song and try to make it an acting thing. Do you know, which made it nice for me.

A (37:27)

What's the difference between a singing thing and an acting thing and approaching a song?

B (37:30)

I think that it's the word, it's what you're saying, that's the acting approach. It's not. And then that's how you approach the style of the song. Of course, I have a limited thing in terms of being a singer. It's a very small kind of a delicate little voice, you know, not a very big range or anything. And basically I didn't really have a I just wasn't good enough. I mean, I just wasn't good enough to be a singer. So do I sing now? Let me just answer your question because I guess so Lost and not really. I sang in First Wives Club, which was really fun for me. The Motown song or, you know, you Don't Own Me is right.

A (38:10)

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

B (38:11)

Yeah, you don't own me. And that was really fun. And I dance, which I don't do. And that was fun, too. So I look forward to another opportunity to try. I don't know if I'll get another one, but we'll see.

A (38:24)

My interview with Diane Keaton was recorded in 1997. She's died at the age of 79 toward the end of her Oscar winning performance in Annie Hall. She sings the song seems like old times. I've always loved the way she sang this.

B (38:41)

Seems like.

A (38:46)

Old.

B (38:49)

Times. Dinner dates and flowers, old.

A (39:04)

Times.

B (39:08)

Staying up all hours making dreams come true. Doing things we used to do. Seems like old times here.

A (40:01)

Thank you. After we take a short break, our TV critic David Biancooli returns to review a new documentary about actor John Candy. This is FRESH air.

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A (41:02)

John Candy, the comic actor who rose to fame in the sketch comedy series SCTV and such films as Stripes, Splash and Spaceballs, died at age 43 in 1994. Now, 31 years later, a new documentary pays tribute to Candy and does so in a very intimate and affectionate way. It's called John Candy, I Like Me, and it's now streaming on Prime Video. Our TV critic David Biancooli has this.

C (41:30)

Review this new movie length documentary about John Candy is subtitled I Like Me for a Reason. That's the line that Candy says to Steve Martin partway through their film Planes, Trains and Automobiles after Martin's character has bombarded Candy's character with a string of increasingly mean insults. By the end of that movie, the vulnerability and likability of Candy's character has won Martin's character over. This documentary has the same effect. Even if you know little about John Candy, by the time this film is over, you'll miss him a lot. John Candy, I Like Me, takes a chronological approach to its subject, but not a typical one. It's more than 20 minutes into the movie before we see any real samples of Candy the performer. We first learn about the type of person he was growing up in Canada. He listened to Fireside Theater comedy records and played football until he injured his knee and had his kneecap removed. Not replaced, removed. We hear from his widow, his now adult children, his friends and other relatives, and also from a ridiculously long list of colleagues, co stars and fellow celebrities, all of whom seem all too happy to share the most personal of stories. One of them is Bill Murray, who joined Toronto's Second City Improv stage group when Candy did.

B (42:59)

We started the same time and we were the worst. We jumped into a show and they gave us stuff to do, but then you'd have to the second part of the show was you had to improvise and no one wanted to work with us because we didn't know what we were doing, so we'd only work with each other. But we were confident. We had a lot of confidence. I don't think people today realize how bad you have to be in order to be a perfectionist. You have to be bad and know you're bad because there's nothing like being really bad to make you want to be better.

C (43:31)

Murray talks about some of the alter egos Candy adopted on stage and offstage too, like Johnny Toronto, who acted like he owned the city. Eventually, Murray points out, John Candy would become Johnny Toronto, beloved by that city, co owning a Canadian Football League team with hockey superstar Wayne Gretzky and becoming famous as a TV and movie star. That fame started with Second City TV, also known as SCTV, which began in Canada in 1976 and quickly was imported to the U S. It was a low budget syndicated alternative to Saturday Night Live, which had begun on NBC the year before. I loved SCTV the first moment I saw it and so did Tom Hanks, who recalls Stumbling upon it while touring a stage show in Canada as a member of Cleveland's Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival. The first sketch he saw was a long parody of Leave it to Beaver with Harold Ramis as the neighbor kid Whitey and John Candy as the Beaver.

B (44:38)

It was kind of like the promise of that very first time that I saw him, this subtle, big, grown up guy dressed up as Jerry Mather, saying, I don't know. Gee, Wally, that Eddie Haskell, he really makes me mad. Why don't you kill him? Nah, I could go to jail. Besides, it's against the law. But Beaver, no one would have to know that you did it. I don't know, Whitey.

C (44:56)

I don't even have a gun.

B (44:58)

Come on, Beaver.

C (44:59)

Tom Hanks is the father of actor Colin Hanks, who directs John Candy. I like me. That may explain why Tom Hanks is interviewed, but it also might explain the appreciation Colin Hanks shows as both director and interviewer for the process of acting and of what being the friend or loved one of an actor is like. Because of Second City, we hear from Catherine o', Hara, Andrea Martin, Martin Short, Dave Thomas and others. Because of John Candy's long string of movies, we hear from Steve Martin, Mel Brooks and Macaulay Culkin, who speaks admiringly of Candy's many films with writer director John Hughes. Those films include Planes, Trains and Automobiles and with Culkin, both Home Alone and Uncle Buck. If you're gonna associate an actor with.

A (45:49)

John Hughes, a lot of people think like, oh, Molly Ringwald or something like that. And it's like, no, it's John Candy.

B (45:54)

I've done as many John Hughes movies as Molly Ringwald. We've both done three, I think.

C (45:58)

He didn't. Candy did nine. You should associate those two. One scene from Candy's film career that this documentary is smart enough to present intact comes from Uncle Buck. It features John Candy and 8 year old Macaulay Culkin meeting and asking questions of one another in a parody of the interrogation style of dialogue made famous by Jack Webb in Dragnet. It worked in 1989 and it works now.

B (46:25)

Where do you live? In the city.

A (46:27)

Do you have a house?

C (46:28)

Apartment.

A (46:28)

On a rent.

B (46:29)

Rent. What do you do for a living? Lots of things.

A (46:31)

Where's your office?

C (46:32)

I don't have one.

A (46:33)

How come?

B (46:33)

I don't need one.

A (46:34)

Where's your wife?

B (46:35)

Don't have one.

A (46:35)

How come? It's a long story. Do you have kids?

B (46:37)

No, I don't.

A (46:38)

How come?

B (46:39)

It's an even longer story.

A (46:40)

Are you my dad's brother?

B (46:41)

What's your record for consecutive questions asked? 38.

C (46:44)

We also hear from others like Conan O', Brien, an unabashed John Candy fan in college who invited him to visit the Harvard campus and specifically the Harvard Lampoon, which Conan edited. Conan was astounded that Candy came, amazed by how nice and how present he was, and influenced by a piece of advice Candy gave him at the time.

B (47:06)

I remember admitting to him that I.

C (47:08)

Was very interested in comedy and I.

B (47:11)

Might even want to try it.

C (47:13)

I'll never forget this. He looked me square in the eye.

B (47:16)

And he said, you don't try it.

A (47:17)

You either do it or you don't do it.

B (47:19)

You don't try it, kid. And that spoke to me like, all.

C (47:24)

In, kid, all in or not at all. I wish this documentary included more samples from Candy's brilliant characters on sctv. And there's virtually no mention of the David Steinberg show, the Canadian TV series preceding SCTV that gave Candy an even earlier break in 1972. But I felt happy and at times a little sad watching John Candy I Like Me. Colin Hanks does a fine job of profiling a gifted comic and actor, and by all accounts a very sweet human being. And after you watch the documentary, Prime Video has a handy selection of John Candy movies to dive into, including Uncle Buck, Planes, Trains and Automobiles and Spaceballs. I highly recommend taking that plunge. John Candy, I like him, too.

A (48:18)

David B. And Cooley reviewed John Candy I Like Me, which is streaming on Prime Video. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we unpack the ceasefire agreement in Gaza with veteran State Department negotiator Aaron David Miller, who's now at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He says the Gaza deal isn't a lasting peace agreement, but an important step made possible in part by Donald Trump's transactional approach to politics and diplomacy. I hope you'll join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram P R FRESH air Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challoner, Susan Yakindi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock, producer, directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. America's global role is shifting fast. On sources and methods, we explain how and why I'm Mary Louise Kelly. I've talked to spies, I've reported from war zones, I've interviewed ambassadors, generals, presidents. Want to understand what is happening around the world and how it affects us? Join me and my fellow reporters as we break it down for you.

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