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- [00:00]
Alan Bergman
This message comes from Amazon Pharmacy.
- [00:02]
David Biancooli
Ever been so sick that thinking of going to the pharmacy made you more sick? With Amazon Pharmacy, meds are delivered fast right to your door. You just have to make it to your door.
- [00:14]
Terry Gross
Amazon Healthcare just got less painful.
- [00:17]
David Biancooli
This is FRESH air. I'm David Bean Cooley. Today we're going to remember lyricist Alan Bergman, half of the long running songwriting duo with his wife Marilyn Bergman. Here's a sampling of some of their songs.
- [00:32]
Alan Bergman
These light the corners of my mind, Misty watercolor memories.
- [00:47]
Marilyn Bergman
Of the way we were.
- [00:52]
Alan Bergman
That face, that face, that wonderful face. It shines, it glows all over the place.
- [01:08]
Marilyn Bergman
And what are you doing the rest of your life.
- [01:17]
Alan Bergman
North and south and.
- [01:18]
Marilyn Bergman
East and west of your life?
- [01:25]
Alan Bergman
I have only one request of your life that you spend it all with me. Let's take it nice and easy. It's gonna be so easy for us to in love when lonely feelings chill the meadows of your mind. Just think if winter comes, can spring be far behind the deepest know.
- [02:27]
Marilyn Bergman
The.
- [02:28]
Alan Bergman
Secret of a rose is merely that it knows you must believe in spring, summer wishes, winter dreams drifting down, forgotten.
- [02:57]
David Biancooli
Stream Songs by Alan and Marilyn Bergman. Alan Bergman died last week at the age of 99. His wife Marilyn, died in 2022. Their songs won Oscars, Grammys and Golden Globes and were popularized by Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Fred Astaire and Barbra Streisand, just to name a few. The Bergmans also wrote the words to the TV theme songs for the sitcoms Maude, Alice and Good Times. The couple collaborated on songs for more than 60 years. We're going to listen back to some of Terry's 2007 interview with Alan and Marilyn Bergman. At the time, Alan Bergman had released a CD of him singing many of their songs. The couple met through composer Lou Spencer. The three of them collaborated on a song that was written for Frank Sinatra. It became the title track of an album he released in 1960.
- [03:51]
Alan Bergman
Let's take it nice and easy. It's gonna be so easy for us.
- [04:02]
Marilyn Bergman
To fall in love.
- [04:09]
Alan Bergman
Hey baby, watch your hurry. Relax and don't you worry we're gonna fall in love.
- [04:26]
Marilyn Bergman
We're on the road to romance, that's safe to say.
- [04:33]
Alan Bergman
But let's make all the snow stops along the way. The problem now, of course, is to simply hold your horses. To rush would be a crime.
- [05:00]
Marilyn Bergman
Cause Nice and easy does it every time.
- [05:11]
Terry Gross
How did you come up with the phrase nice and easy, which became the title of the song and Sinatra's album?
- [05:17]
Alan Bergman
Yeah, well, when you write for somebody like Frank Sinatra, who has a definite personality. You try to write, it's easy to write a custom made suit for him. You know, he's very theatrical. He has a definite character. And we felt because they wanted something that was easy, swinging that nice and easy. The phrase that nice and easy does it every time would be good for him. It also had a kind of subtext to be a little sexy, which certainly also was part of Sinatra.
- [05:58]
Terry Gross
Is this one of those many songs about sex that isn't literally about sex, but it's absolutely about sex?
- [06:04]
Alan Bergman
Yes, it is. Yes, it is.
- [06:08]
Terry Gross
Did he ever ask. Did Sinatra ever ask you to write for him after having such success with this song?
- [06:15]
Alan Bergman
Yes, yes, he did, several times. There was one time we received a call from him and said, I want you to write me a 10 minute number. And we said about what? He said, when, you know, boy meets girl, boy gets girl, boy loses girl, and so on. And we said to him, well, that's really been written. He said, you'll figure it out. He used to call us the kids and he said, you kids, you'll figure it out. And he said, get Michelle Legrand to be the composer. And Michelle's father was very sick at the time and Michelle couldn't do it. So we called him and said, it's John Williams, okay, It was Johnny Williams. He was not the well known conductor, composer then. And we said, john, would you like to do this? And he said, yeah, let's do it. So we wrote. We wrote a 10 minute piece, which incidentally, he wanted for his nightclub act. So we wrote a piece that talked about the fact that the protagonist of the piece, in this case the singer, fell in love with the same woman over and over and over. I don't mean literally the same woman, but you know, the same woman. And each love affair ended badly. And I think I remember the phrase the same hello, the same goodbye. And when we finished it, we called him and told him that we had finished it. And he asked us if we would come down to Palm Springs where he had a home, and play it for him. So the three of us drove down to Palm Springs and we got to his. I started to say house, but more like a compound, actually. And he opened the door himself when we finally made our way to the house. And Alan sang the song for him. Alan, what was that experience? You tell it. Well, he was sitting on an ottoman in front of me and I sang for 10 minutes. You know, that's a long time. When I was finished, he was crying and he said to Marilyn, how do you know so much about me? As if his life was such. Such a closed book. Such a closed book, you know. But it must have hit some nerve. And he said, I have to learn this. This is terrific. I love it. But he never learned it. Every time we would see him, he would say, I'm going to do that, kids. I'm going to do that. But he never did. But it was a very nice experience, I must say.
- [09:09]
Terry Gross
Now, you've written a lot of songs for movies. Some of your best known songs are songs you wrote for movies. You haven't written that much for theater. How did you gravitate to writing songs for movies?
- [09:23]
Alan Bergman
I think maybe movies made a deeper impression growing up. And we always knew that we wanted to write in a dramatic context. We were more interested in. In that than we were in just writing songs in limbo. Writing in a narrative or dramatic context when we were honing craft. You can't write for a picture unless somebody hires you, you know, so it's like an actor not being able to act unless he gets a job or she gets a job. So we would do exercises. We would find either short stories or scenes from plays or articles in the newspaper and pretend that they were assignments. And we wrote many, many, many songs that never saw the light of day, but were exercises that we gave ourselves. So I like to think that when the first job came, we were ready.
- [10:33]
Terry Gross
Well, let's listen to Alan Bergman sing this is what Are you Doing the Rest of youf Life? Which was written for the 1969 film the Happy Ending. The composer was Michelle Legrand. Why don't you tell us the story behind the song before we hear it?
- [10:48]
Alan Bergman
Richard Brooks, who was a wonderful writer and director, directed and wrote this film called the Happy Ending, which I think was well ahead of its time and occasionally will appear on very, very late night television, but really didn't find an audience. Anyway, he came to us one day and said, I want you to write me a song that is to appear twice in the film. Early in the film. I want it to be. I want it to function as perhaps a proposal of marriage between these to young lovers. But I want to hear the song again at the end of the film, at which time the wife. They were since married. Sixteen years later, the wife has become alcoholic and has left her husband and is in a bar and goes to a jukebox and selects a song and then sits down with a lineup of martinis in front of her and. And he shot this beautiful montage of Gene Simmons, who played the wife, during which time she drifts into kind of a reverie while listening to the same song. And he said, I don't want you to change a note or a word, but I want the song to mean something very different when you hear it the second time. So that was a very interesting, challenging assignment. And Michel Legrand wrote perhaps, I don't know, six or eight tunes as his want for this part. And they were all beautiful, but none really struck the three of us as being right. And we said to him, because while he was writing music, we were sitting trying to solve the dramatic question of what the song should be about. We said to him, what happens if the first line of the song is what are you doing the rest of your life? And he said, oh, I like that. And he put his hands on the keys and as long as it takes to play that song, that's what he played from beginning to end. And he said, you mean something like that? And we said, no, we mean exactly like that. And Alan said to him, Alan said to him, Play it again. And he said, oh, I don't remember quite what I played. Luckily, we had the tape machine going, so we had the music.
- [13:32]
Terry Gross
So the first line of the song inspired the melody.
- [13:35]
Alan Bergman
Exactly. Yes, exactly. But that happens sometimes with Michelle. We can't write lyrics first. We prefer not to write lyrics first. We prefer to have the melody. We feel that when we have the melody that there are words on the tips of those notes and we have to find them.
- [13:55]
Terry Gross
Well, let's hear Alan Bergman singing what Are youe Doing the Rest of youf Life? That he and Marilyn Bergman co wrote.
- [14:02]
Alan Bergman
What Are youe Doing the Rest of Life? Of your life north and south and east and west of your life. I have only one request of your life that you spend it all with me. All the seasons and, and the times of your days. All the nickels and the dimes of your days. Let the reasons and the rhymes of your days all begin and end with me. I want to see your face in every kind of light.
- [15:07]
Marilyn Bergman
In fields of.
- [15:09]
Alan Bergman
Dawn and forests of the night.
- [15:13]
David Biancooli
That's Alan Bergman singing a song he wrote with his wife, Marilyn Bergman. We'll get Back to Terry's 2007 interview with the Bergmans after a break. This is FRESH air.
- [15:24]
Alan Bergman
This message comes from Carvana.
- [15:26]
David Biancooli
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- [15:29]
Alan Bergman
Instantly track its value on Carvana Value Tracker, answer a few quick questions and stay up to speed on your car's value.
- [15:37]
David Biancooli
Track your car's value@carvana.com this message comes.
- [15:41]
Terry Gross
From NPR sponsor Shopify. No idea where to sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO.
- [15:53]
David Biancooli
Ready, Shopify is the only tool you.
- [15:55]
Terry Gross
Need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle.
- [15:58]
David Biancooli
Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has.
- [16:01]
Terry Gross
The Internet's best converting checkout.
- [16:02]
David Biancooli
To help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your.
- [16:07]
Terry Gross
Business to the next level. Today you were both writing lyrics for the composer Lou Spence, who wrote the melody for Nice and Easy, which was when your first hits, and Marilyn, the way you described it. One of you was as morning lyricist and the other was as afternoon lyricist. How did he end up having two different lyricists?
- [16:28]
Alan Bergman
Because I like to sleep late. It was early in our careers and, you know, we were feeling. Trying to find out who we are, what we're saying. And he was writing. I mean, he was talented.
- [16:41]
Terry Gross
Yeah, we were both independently writing lyrics for Lou Spence. You met through him with. Yes, with Lou Spence. Okay, okay. You met through him and then you decided that you should be writing lyrics with each other.
- [16:54]
Alan Bergman
Yeah, so we wrote a song that day. Yeah, we just. The first day we were introduced to each other, we wrote a song. It was a terrible song, but we loved the process. We enjoyed the process. And from that day on, we'd been writing together.
- [17:10]
Terry Gross
Can you share a few bars of the awful song?
- [17:13]
Alan Bergman
Oh, my God, I only know the title, which was I never knew what hit me. Ouch. Something like that. Ouch is right.
- [17:22]
Terry Gross
So, Alan Berg, when Johnny Mercer was your mentor, how were you lucky enough to get to know him?
- [17:28]
Alan Bergman
Well, I met him when I was in graduate school at ucla and he heard some things I had written and he took a liking to me. And he spent, you know, over a period of two or three years. Yeah, he would call me and say, I know all you're doing is working. This is before I met Marilyn. And we would go down with his family to Newport, where he had a place where he had a house and we would spend a weekend. He would sit at the piano and listen to me play and sing. He liked the way I sang and he was just terrific. I mean, I wouldn't be talking to you without him. He was just marvelous to me.
- [18:15]
Terry Gross
So what was some of the best advice that Johnny Mercer ever gave you about songwriting?
- [18:22]
Alan Bergman
Ah, well, you know, he just outlined the craft about singing. You're writing for an instrument and you have to Respect that. And about a lot, about imagery. More. It would be more. You can do better than that. It wouldn't be specific, really, which was great, because that helped. The more specific he would, I think teachers get, the less you feel free to express yourself. And some of the early songs of mine, you can hear Johnny Mercer in them, trying to emulate him. Till I found. And we found our own voice, Alan Bergman.
- [19:14]
Terry Gross
One of the songs you sing on your new album, lyrically, is a song that you say was an engagement gift to Marilyn Bergman.
- [19:23]
Alan Bergman
Yes.
- [19:24]
Terry Gross
And the song is that Face, which was first recorded by Fred Astaire. So before we hear you sing it, what's the story behind the song?
- [19:33]
Alan Bergman
Well, Lou Spence, who wrote the music, he was going out with a girl, and Marilyn and I were going out together and wanted to ask her to marry me and have some kind of engagement. I didn't have any money, so we wrote this song and we did get it. We got an appointment with Fred Astaire. Fred Astaire was Marilyn's favorite singer. She loved the way he sang. I still do.
- [19:57]
Terry Gross
Me too.
- [19:58]
Alan Bergman
Yes. Well, you know, the. Just to digress for a second, you know, the literature of the popular music in this country would be much poorer without a Fred Astaire, because all those great writers, Berlin, the Gershwins, Cole Porter, and so they all wrote for him, Johnny Mercer. So we wangled an appointment with Fred Astaire and sang him the song. He said, before I listened, he said, I. He owned a record company and said, I only record what I sing in movies, but I'll listen. It was very sweet. And so we played and sang him the song. And he said, I'm going to record this next week. And he did. And I handed Marilyn this record. I said, and I married him. And she married him.
- [20:50]
Terry Gross
Let's hear you sing it from. From the new Alan Bergman cd. Lyrically.
- [20:58]
Alan Bergman
That face, that face, that wonderful face. It shines, it glows all over the place. And how I love to watch it, change it. Expressions, each look becomes the prize of my possessions. I love that face, that face.
- [21:33]
Marilyn Bergman
It just isn't fair.
- [21:37]
Alan Bergman
You must forgive the way that I stay. But never will these eyes behold a sight that could replace that face. That face, that face.
- [21:58]
David Biancooli
That's Alan Bergman. He and his wife, co lyricist Marilyn, spoke with Terry Gross in 2007. He died last week at the age of 99. She died in 2022. After a break, we listened back to a 1989 interview with Jessica Mitford, one of the aristocratic, unconventional Mitford sisters. They're the subject of a new Britbox drama series. And I'll review the new Dexter spinoff, Dexter Resurrection. I'm David Biancooley and this is Fresh Air.
- [22:28]
Terry Gross
Hi, it's Catherine Marr, CEO of npr. Federal funding for public media has been eliminated. That means that the NPR network is moving forward in an uncharted future. But our commitment to you will never waver. Please give today to support the kind of journalism that democracy relies upon. Make your gift@donate.NPR.org thank you. This message comes from Grammarly.
- [22:54]
David Biancooli
From emails to reports and project proposals.
- [22:57]
Terry Gross
It'S hard to meet the demands of.
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David Biancooli
Today'S competing priorities without some help.
- [23:01]
Terry Gross
Grammarly is the essential AI communication assistant that boosts your productivity at work so.
- [23:06]
David Biancooli
So you can get more of what you need done faster.
- [23:09]
Terry Gross
Just a few clicks can tailor your.
- [23:11]
David Biancooli
Tone and writing so you come across exactly as you intend. Get time back to focus on your high impact work. Download Grammarly for free@Grammarly.com podcast that's Grammarly.com.
- [23:23]
Alan Bergman
Podcast this summer on Planet Money Summer.
- [23:26]
David Biancooli
School, we're learning about political economy. We're getting into the nitty gritty of.
- [23:30]
Terry Gross
What government does with things like trade.
- [23:32]
David Biancooli
Taxes, immigration and health care.
- [23:35]
Marilyn Bergman
So politics and economics, which are taught separately, they shouldn't be separated at all.
- [23:38]
Terry Gross
I think you have to understand one.
- [23:40]
Marilyn Bergman
To really appreciate the other.
- [23:41]
Alan Bergman
So what is the right amount of government in our lives?
- [23:44]
David Biancooli
Tune into Planet Money Summer School from NPR wherever you get your podcasts. Jessica Mitford was famous for several reasons. One reason was her investigative books, including her best known one, the American Way of Death, published in 1963. It revealed how the funeral industry was financially taking advantage of grief stricken Americans. It was a bestseller and led to congressional hearings on the industry. Another reason Mitford was famous was that she was committed to radical causes throughout her Life. In the 1950s, as a former member of the Communist Party, she refused to give any information to the House UN American Activities Committee. Mitford grew up in the English countryside, the daughter of a lord, which gets to yet another source of her notoriety. She was one of England's most unusual groups of sisters. There were six Mitford girls, including Unity, who briefly was romantically involved with Hitler Diana, who married Oswald Mosley, the head of Britain's Union of Fascists, and Nancy, who became a popular novelist. The sisters are now the subject of a new Britbox drama series titled Outrageous. In my recent review of the TV show, I called it and the Mitford Sisters fascinating. Jessica Mitford died in 1996. Terry Gross spoke with her seven years earlier in 1989.
- [25:11]
Terry Gross
Jessica Mitford, welcome to FRESH AIR.
- [25:13]
Marilyn Bergman
Thanks.
- [25:14]
Terry Gross
There's so much I want to talk with you about your life. Let's start kind of way back. How far in your childhood, when you were a young girl from a prosperous family growing up in the English countryside reading pacifist and leftist literature and getting very excited about it. What was the initial appeal to you of it?
- [25:35]
Marilyn Bergman
Well, you know, I've thought this over since I believe actually that one is very much the product of one's own time. I mean, the 60s people were a product of their time, weren't they? Now I was a 30s person. In other words, I was born in 1917. So by 1930 I was about 13 years old, reading everything I could lay hands on like most children, and so fascinated with the growing politics all around me. It was the Depression in England, tremendous poverty, huge areas called, you know, unemployable areas. And then there was fascism rising abroad. So these things made me think you're.
- [26:16]
Terry Gross
Talking about how you think of yourself as being a product of your time. But it's fascinating how as a product of your time, you became a leftist, yet two of your sisters became fascist. And it's really so hard to imagine sisters in the same family growing up so different. Do you have any explanation for it?
- [26:34]
Marilyn Bergman
I never have been able to figure it out myself, frankly. I've been asked that lots of times.
- [26:40]
Terry Gross
I'm sure you have.
- [26:40]
Marilyn Bergman
Yeah. But I mean, the thing is, though, that some say sibling rivalry, which I don't believe really. I really don't think so. I don't think we were jealous of each other. It was just that I happened to see things differently from the beginning.
- [26:54]
Terry Gross
Did you, because you were so opposed to fascism, did you find yourself hating your sisters when they became fascists?
- [27:03]
Marilyn Bergman
Not really. That's the odd thing. I was always deeply fond of my sister Unity. She was one of my very favorite people in the world. And what I did realize was that our divergent views politically were going to inevitably lead to a huge, well, end of friendship, in fact, which in fact, they did.
- [27:24]
Terry Gross
You kept a running away account when you were young, money so that you could run away from home. But what you ended up using your running away account for was to try to go to Speech Spain with the man who you later married.
- [27:37]
Marilyn Bergman
That's it. Yeah. And that was just right around £50.
- [27:40]
Terry Gross
And this was during the Spanish Civil War. And you already knew which side you were on. You kind of went from this quiet rural country life, the daughter of a Lord. To suddenly being a political radical involved in a revolution. A young married woman married to someone who was also from a wealthy background. Your husband was the nephew of Winston Churchill, right?
- [28:06]
Marilyn Bergman
Yes.
- [28:08]
Terry Gross
I wonder if you started to see your own families as the opposition.
- [28:13]
Marilyn Bergman
Whether I ever saw them.
- [28:14]
Terry Gross
If you saw them as the opposition.
- [28:15]
Marilyn Bergman
If I saw them as the opposition in the political battles you were aware of, Absolutely, yeah. See, both my parents went completely on the side of Hitler, which was very surprising. You know, we were brought up in the shadow of the First World War, in a way. And in those days, you see the Huns, they were the filthy Huns who had killed Uncle Klem and numerous other relations in the First World War. People, of course, that I never knew because I was just born during that time. And then all of a sudden, Hitler became a tremendous star. He did away with the labor unions, with the Communist Party, he was doing away with the Jews. And you can't discount the amount of anti Semitism that goes on in the English upper class.
- [28:59]
Terry Gross
Jessica Mitford is my guest. You lost your first husband in action in 1941, right, during the war. He was 23 years old. You, just before that, lost your baby.
- [29:11]
Marilyn Bergman
Who died of measles, the one born in Rotherhithe Street. Right.
- [29:17]
Terry Gross
You were young, you were in your twenties. Did you despair at that point that your life was over? I think it must have been so hard to suffer those two losses at such a young age.
- [29:25]
Marilyn Bergman
Well, also by then, I had another baby born in 1941, Dinky Constantia Romilly, who now lives in Atlanta. She's a nurse there, in fact. And I mean, that was ages ago. She's now 48, absolutely ancient. I can't believe it. But anyhow, so she was my great standby and steadfast friend. And anyhow, you know, when you're young, I suppose, life goes on, and especially if you've got a baby to look after and support. And so I got various jobs with the government and other places.
- [30:02]
Terry Gross
You know, let's move ahead a little bit. You wrote about your membership in the Communist Party in your book A Final Conflict. What got you to join when you did?
- [30:14]
Marilyn Bergman
Well, you see, in the first place, I'd always been a terrific supporter of the Communist Party in England ever since I was about 15. Because if you sort of studied the times in those days, you know, well, the Communists were in the forefront of the fight for the rights of unemployed. I mean, and an end to things like the means test, which was a rotten sort of Tory ploy to prevent the Unemployed from collecting unemployed insurance or welfare. And then they were also in the forefront of the fight against fascism, both in Germany and Italy. But in Spain, above all, it was the communists who recruited all the young people who went, who flocked from all over the world into the International Brigade, of which Esmond Romilly was one. And that's how I met him. And then we sort of ran off to Spain together, you know, so that was sort of the progression of that and then. But we never actually joined the party, Esmond and I, in those days. After her husband was killed, I stayed in Washington with my baby, Dinky Constantia Romilly. So then I remarried in 1943, Bob Truehaft, a lawyer who I'd met in the OPA where I was working, and that was in San Francisco. We moved out to San Francisco and there again, the Communist Party in those years seemed to me the absolute sort of lodestar, or the kind of backbone really, if you like, of all progressive left wing movements, the ones the steadfast supporters of rights of black people, that kind of thing. And this is what made us determined to join. So we did join in 1943 and remained members, in fact, until 58, which was quite a longish time.
- [32:06]
Terry Gross
What got you to leave in 1958?
- [32:08]
Marilyn Bergman
Well, by 1958, in the first place, the Khrushchev report about the crimes of Stalin had come out. And as a consequence of that, an awful lot of people flocked out of the CP. I didn't at the time. That was in 1956, in fact. And then came the invasion of Hungary, and then came Czechoslovakia and so on, and more and more people flocked out. It was getting to be a waste of time. I'd be better off working with people in the main street, in the movements on campuses, for instance, in the 60s and in the black community.
- [32:42]
Terry Gross
So many people were harassed during the McCarthy period, and so many lives were ruined. I'm thinking that it must have been hard to harass someone like you, someone who had been outspoken all of her life and who had already, like, a reputation for eccentricity because of her family. I mean, did you feel like, what can you do to hurt me?
- [33:05]
Marilyn Bergman
Well, I did a little bit, yeah. I'll tell you what I really felt, which is that the hell with them sort of thing. I mean, we were subpoenaed. Bob True Heft. My husband and I were both subpoenaed, and I was subpoenaed by not only the main House Committee on UN American Activities, but also the local version of the same The California Committee and so on. And. Well, I mean, what could you do? Actually, when I was subpoenaed by the main House committee, I was among a hundred people. There were sort of huge headlines in the Chronicle and other papers. 100 bay reds subpoenaed. Well, of course, if I hadn't been one of those, I'd have been rather miffed. Do you know the feeling? Sort of Rather annoyed. But anyhow, I was one. But they never finally called me. But what I found out was that they were bound to pay per diem. Or was it? No, it wasn't per diem. It was travel allowance. So much a mile. And since we lived in Oakland, I put in for $40 for travel allowance for the week that I was forced to be there and then turned over the check to the Communist Party. I hoped to annoy them somehow.
- [34:15]
Terry Gross
You know, in your memoir about your coming of age called Daughters and Rebels, you wrote that you. You confessed that you were guiltily looking forward to being a debutante.
- [34:27]
Marilyn Bergman
Yeah.
- [34:27]
Terry Gross
Now, I don't know if you ever had that. That experience or not, but certainly you became a very well known leftist and left that society world. Your father wrote you out of his will.
- [34:39]
Marilyn Bergman
Yeah.
- [34:40]
Terry Gross
I think because you had named one of your children after Lennon. You called him Nicholas. Do you ever have any regrets about leaving wealth and privilege?
- [34:51]
Marilyn Bergman
No. In fact, you know, when that happened, which was in 58, I happened to be in Mexico at the time. And to the horror of the landlady where I was staying because she somehow thought she was going to have to pay for the calls. There were phone calls from everywhere, from the London Evening Standard, from Canada, from all over the United States. What is your reaction to being cut out of your father's wife? And I said, I have no reaction. I think people have every right to leave their money as they wish. And I wasn't expecting any. You know, the deflated journalists, you know how they hate that kind of bland answer.
- [35:26]
Terry Gross
Anyhow, this could have been, I guess, a big thing if you were, you.
- [35:30]
Marilyn Bergman
Know, it's all screamed away or something.
- [35:32]
Terry Gross
You know, but you had just assumed that you.
- [35:34]
Marilyn Bergman
Of course, I never expected.
- [35:36]
Terry Gross
And that when you make the decision to live your life as you do, you can't have it both ways.
- [35:40]
Marilyn Bergman
That was, of course, exactly. You said it.
- [35:44]
Terry Gross
Jessica Mitford. Let's talk a little bit about your writing. You're best known for the book the American Way of Expose of the Funeral Industry. What led you to want to expose the horrors of the funeral industry and how they would get people when they were weak and take him for whatever they could.
- [36:05]
Marilyn Bergman
Well, it is rather weird, I admit. It's an odd subject indeed. I think the thing is that Bob Truehaft, my husband, who's a lawyer in Oakland, was representing numerous trade unions. And along about the middle 1950s, he began to notice to his fury that every time a union member died, the breadwinner of a family the hard fought for union benefits meant to go to the widow and children would wind up being the price of the funeral. So he started organizing the Bay Area Funeral Society, a non profit thing, which I thought was rather boring, frankly. I mean, I said, well, look, we're robbed every day in the supermarkets and by the landlords and things, so why pick on the wretched undertakers? Until I began reading the trade magazines.
- [36:52]
Terry Gross
Oh, what did you see in there?
- [36:53]
Marilyn Bergman
Oh, God. Well, the titles would lead you on Mortuary Management. Casket and Sunnyside. Casket and Sunnyside and my favorite title of all, you know, which really makes you think the Journal of Creative Ideas for Cemeteries. Well, I mean, you know, if you saw those, wouldn't you be reading them like mad? I did. And I found therein a whole wonder world of the mortuary that I'd never known existed. You know, I hadn't known, for instance, that you could have a choice of. Of foam rubber or what you would call your inner spring mattress for your eternal sealer casket and that kind of thing. And I started sending away for samples and it was all so delightful, so I started writing that book.
- [37:41]
Terry Gross
Did you go undercover and pose as someone who had a deceased loved one so that you could shop for funeral arrangements?
- [37:47]
Marilyn Bergman
Yeah, I did. I did quite a bit of that. That was one of the best parts of it. Especially Forest Lawn in Los Angeles. That was tremendous fun.
- [37:55]
Terry Gross
What was the experience there like?
- [37:56]
Marilyn Bergman
Well, I mean, I went there actually. I went with a young man who is an American fellow who was teaching English history or something in one of the colleges there in Los Angeles. And so we made up that he was my nephew and I was his English aunt and my sister was dying or something, you see, and we wanted to make pre need arrangements. So I said we wanted to see everything. But in those days, by the way, Forest Lawn was a price war on. And Forest Lawn was advertising on billboards funerals from $145, you see, which sounded very reasonable. So I said to the grief therapist, they're not salesmen, you know, they're grief therapists. I said to the grief therapist, where we all see everything and nature of all the coffins that I can choose the best, most appropriate. So the first one we came to was $16,500. Now you have to realize we're talking in the late 19, no, the early 1960s, so you can double that or triple it or whatever for the inflation what it is. And I must say it was rather magnificent, you know. And I looked at it longingly and then I said, well, could we see the $145 one? And so, you know, he took ages finding it. It was all hidden away somewhere. And my dear, it was purple. It had a purple, really hideous. And I said, I looked at it and I said my sister wouldn't be called dead in that sort of thing, you know. And so then we kind of went along and saw all the different plots and blah, blah, and it was great fun.
- [39:28]
Terry Gross
After writing the American Way of Death, did you find yourself in the position of having to genuinely prepare somebody's funeral and having to shop for real in the funeral industry?
- [39:38]
Marilyn Bergman
I have once or twice. My favorite thing in that line. There was a man called Howard Gossage, extremely well known in San Francisco, but he died many years ago. He was a wonderful. He was an ad man, advertising writer. And when he was. Oh, he did all those heartless things in the New Yorker about the getaway car. I mean, it's all years old. I don't know if people remember it, but he was much more than that. He was a brilliant and funny fellow in all ways. So he was dying of leukemia. We knew he was dying and not expecting, expected to live. So one morning about 4:5am his brother in law rang up who I hadn't met, and he said, Howard died in the middle of the night. And his last words to me was, when I go, and I think it'll be very soon now, be sure to get hold of Jessica because she knows how to nose out the cheapest coffin in this whole town. So you know how when somebody dies and the survivors, you know, you always sort of say. Or people say, well, what can I, Can I do anything? And the answer is no, obviously. But in this case, yes was the answer. So I went and collected the widow, who was a beautiful young actress. And together we went, My God, I got one for $150 all in, you know. And he was a rich man and he would have been considered a super prize for the.
- [41:01]
Alan Bergman
At Planet Money.
- [41:02]
David Biancooli
We know that economic jargon can sometimes feel like speaking another language.
- [41:06]
Terry Gross
Yeah, like arbitrage, Alpha, otarchy.
- [41:10]
David Biancooli
That's just what's in the news these days. There's Also, absolute advantage, aggregate demand, aggregate supply.
- [41:16]
Terry Gross
And this is just the A's.
- [41:17]
David Biancooli
Oh, animal spirits.
- [41:18]
Terry Gross
That's a pretty good one. Planet Money from npr. We help you translate the economy so you can understand the world. Wherever you get your podcasts, you're listening.
- [41:27]
Marilyn Bergman
To NPR because you're curious. You want to know what the world is like beyond this surface. NPR feeds that curiosity with stories from.
- [41:36]
David Biancooli
Real people, with real experiences and all.
- [41:39]
Marilyn Bergman
The perspectives that come with them. It's our right to be curious and.
- [41:43]
David Biancooli
Our prerogative to listen.
- [41:45]
Marilyn Bergman
So keep your curiosity alive.
- [41:47]
David Biancooli
Hear the bigger picture every day on npr.
- [41:50]
Alan Bergman
Fall in love with new music every Friday at All songs considered.
- [41:54]
Terry Gross
That's NPR's music recommendation podcast.
- [41:57]
Alan Bergman
Fridays are where we spend our whole show sharing all the greatest new releases of the week.
- [42:02]
Terry Gross
Make the hunt for new music a part of your life again.
- [42:05]
Alan Bergman
Tap into new Music Friday from All Songs Considered, available wherever you get your podcasts.
- [42:12]
Terry Gross
Now, there was a casket named after you after your book came out, right? A kind of bargain basement budget kind of casket.
- [42:19]
Marilyn Bergman
Marvelous idea. Sort of industrialist in the Middle west had plans and specifications for the Jessica Mitford casket, which is going to be sort of made of plastic, I think, or something like that.
- [42:30]
Terry Gross
Did they really make it?
- [42:31]
Marilyn Bergman
I'm not sure. I never actually saw one. My sister Nancy said, oh, well, we all know that you get 10% royalties on those Mitfords.
- [42:40]
Terry Gross
Jessica Mitford, it's been such a pleasure to have you here. I thank you very, very much for joining us.
- [42:44]
Marilyn Bergman
Well, thank you. I've loved every minute.
- [42:46]
David Biancooli
Jessica Mitford speaking to Terry Gross in 1989. Jessica Mitford and her sisters are the subject of the new Britbox drama series titled Outrageous. She died in 1996 at age 78. Coming up, I review Dexter Resurrection, the newest entry in the Dexter TV series about a serial killer who hunts and kills other serial killers. This is FRESH air. The new TV series Resurrection is the latest entry in the Dexter canon about a serial killer who targets other serial killers. The new series is available on Paramount and Showtime. And this weekend, Dexter Resurrection presents its fourth episode, the one I consider the exciting turning point for this new series. When Dexter premiered on Showtime in 2006, I loved it. Michael C. Hall, fresh off HBO's Six Feet under, played the title character, Dexter Morgan. Dexter was so traumatized as a child by witnessing the murder of his mother that he grew up with unquenchable homicidal tendencies, tendencies his dad, Harry, a cop, channeled by teaching him to kill only bad people, specifically serial killers. Dexter arrived on TV at A time when the anti hero was king. Tony Soprano on the Sopranos, Vic Mackie on the Shield, Walter White on Breaking Bad, all of them had pushed the envelope of what audiences would accept from a morally complicated central character. But Dexter doubled down and went all in. The apex of the original Dexter series came at the end of season four, featuring John Lithgow in a season long guest appearance as the Trinity Killer. By that time in the series, Dexter had evolved to the point where he had a wife and a baby boy named Harrison, and in most respects, a normal family life. Except that as Dexter hunted the Trinity Killer, the Trinity Killer was hunting him and ended up killing Dexter's wife and leaving their son in a pool of his mother's blood. Traumatized just as Dexter had been as a child. Showrunner Clyde Phillips, who had overseen the series for four seasons, walked away after that season finale, which I always considered the perfect ending for the series, except it didn't end without Clyde Phillips. Dexter kept going for several more seasons, none of them any good. Eventually, Clyde Phillips returned to the franchise with two more Dexter series, a prequel called Original Sin, and a sequel, Dexter New Blood. That show reintroduced Dexter's son Harrison, now as a homicidal teenager who in the finale shot Dexter dead with a hunting rifle. But as we learned in the opening episode of the new Paramount and Showtime series Resurrection, also developed by Clyde Phillips, Dexter was shot all right, but not shot dead. Instead, we found him in a 10 week coma, subject to a series of drug induced dreams. He's visited in those dreams by several familiar faces from his past, including John Lithgow as the Trinity Killer.
- [46:00]
Alan Bergman
You think Harrison's my fault? That I'm the bad guy? If you hadn't thought that you could live the dream, your wife would still be alive and your son wouldn't have been left to sit in a pool of his own mother's blood, just like you were of the same age. Maybe your precious son wouldn't have become a father killer like. Like me. He is nothing like you. Let me give you a little advice, serial killer to serial killer.
- [46:35]
Marilyn Bergman
Where you went wrong was thinking you.
- [46:36]
Alan Bergman
Could have it all. A family and your dark passenger.
- [46:42]
David Biancooli
The first few episodes of Dexter Resurrection are good. Better than any Dexter show has been in years. But it's in episode four where Dexter Resurrection really comes back to life. Masquerading as a serial killer named Red, Dexter infiltrates a creepy dinner party hosted by a wealthy, twisted eccentric named Leon. Leon, played by Peter Dinklage, has an assistant, played by Uma Thurman, whom He dispatches to track down serial killers who are still at large and bribe them with a briefcase full of money to attend a very exclusive dinner party. Leon explains it all when he opens the doors of his mansion to red, AKA Dexter.
- [47:23]
Alan Bergman
I've been hosting this gathering for years. I know how unnerving it can be for someone like you to be found. But your secrets are safe with me. This is a safe space for people like you. Like you? Are you not like me?
- [47:43]
Marilyn Bergman
Me? Oh.
- [47:47]
Alan Bergman
Goodness, no. I am just a huge fan.
- [47:51]
David Biancooli
And it's at the dinner party when the usually antisocial killers meet and swap stories, where Dexter resurrection regains its formerly strong footing. These murderers are the beneficiary of some killer casting. They include Eric Stonestreet from Modern Family, Kristen Ritter from Breaking Bad, and Neil Patrick Harris from How I Met yout Mother. In this upcoming scene from episode four, Dexter is using his phone to quickly research Lady Vengeance, the killer played by Krysten Ritter, when she sneaks up behind him and sees what he's up to. And very quickly, another killer played by Neil Patrick Harris sneaks up too, asking Lady Vengeance to fill his wine glass.
- [48:34]
Terry Gross
Katja.
- [48:36]
Alan Bergman
Sorry, I was just.
- [48:38]
Terry Gross
Internet stalking me.
- [48:40]
Alan Bergman
It's cool.
- [48:41]
Marilyn Bergman
I tried looking you up as well.
- [48:43]
Alan Bergman
You did?
- [48:45]
Terry Gross
Didn't find anything so mysterious.
- [48:47]
Alan Bergman
It's annoying, right?
- [48:49]
Terry Gross
Very.
- [48:50]
Alan Bergman
Topped me off. Missed some Mali air. Perfect.
- [49:00]
David Biancooli
Dexter Resurrection is full of old as well as new characters and has multiple murder investigations going on at once. The narrative is as interwoven and complicated as a DNA strand and relies on the acceptance of quite a few major coincidences, but it all works. Dexter is back and Michael C. Hall is better than ever. Come for the party. Stay for the murders and the murderers. On Monday's show, Mariska Hargitay, best known as Olivia Benson on Law and Order svu, talks about a different kind of role being a daughter. In her new HBO documentary, My Mom Jane. She explores the life of her late mother, Jane Mansfield, and uncovers long burials, family truths. I hope you can join us. FRESH air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shurrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld and Adam Stanischewski. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm David Biancooli. This message comes from ritual. What makes ritual vitamins different? Ritual vitamins are made with bioavailable, clinically studied key ingredients and a patented nutrient delivery system that aims to help your body. Use the nutrients you're getting. Ritual's Essential Multivitamins are made with you and your body in mind and backed by scientific research, filled with key ingredients.
- [50:35]
Alan Bergman
As well as the essence of mint.
- [50:37]
David Biancooli
So you can enjoy taking your vitamins.
- [50:40]
Alan Bergman
Get 25% off your first purchase when.
- [50:42]
David Biancooli
You visit ritual.com NPR Federal funding for.
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Alan Bergman
Public media has been eliminated. That means decades of bipartisan support for.
- [50:51]
Marilyn Bergman
Public radio and television is ending.
- [50:54]
Alan Bergman
To be clear, NPR isn't going anywhere.
- [50:56]
David Biancooli
But we do need your support.
- [50:58]
Alan Bergman
Please give today to help keep rigorous.
- [51:00]
Marilyn Bergman
Independent and irreplaceable news coverage available to.
- [51:04]
Alan Bergman
Everybody, free of charge.
- [51:05]
Marilyn Bergman
You can make your gift@donate.NPR.org and thank you.