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- [00:00]
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- [00:16]
Terry Gross
Before we start today's show, I want to say a few words about public media. It's been in the news a lot lately because federal funding for it was eliminated earlier this year. But it's the fact that NPR is public media that enables Fresh Air and all of NPR's podcasts to be unique and to be there for you. The Public broadcasting Act of 1967 said that local public media stations should be responsive to their communities. To this day, that's what NPR member stations are doing in so many towns and regions where newspapers have stopped publishing. We're providing news and information and to everyone. Even as digital pay walls rise elsewhere, we offer these services for free, regardless of anyone's ability to pay. At npr, we still believe in these core commitments, but the loss of federal funding is creating major challenges for NPR and all public radio stations as we move into this uncharted future together. We know that you will not let the service that has been here for you all these years falter. We rely on your support to bring you fresh air now more than ever. This year we've continued to bring you interviews with investigative journalists who have uncovered important stories that otherwise may have never been revealed about our government and the state of our democracy, as well as interviews with authors, actors, directors, scientists, health experts, religion scholars and and more. Who knows what surprises await us in 2026. Thank you. If you already go the extra mile as an NPR supporter. If not, you can join the PLUS community, get a bunch of perks like bonus episodes and more from across NPR's podcasts, including fresh airs, and support public media by signing up for npr@plus.npr.org that's plus.npr.org thank you. This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It was shocking and heartbreaking to hear about the murder of Rob Reiner and his wife, Michelle Singer Reiner, especially since their son was arrested on suspicion of murder. Today we're going to listen back to the interview I recorded with Rob Reiner in September. But first, our TV critic David Biancooli has an appreciation.
- [02:46]
David Biancolli
Rob Reiner, as a film director, worked in many different genres and excelled at all of them. And before contributing significantly to the vocabulary and history of movies, he did the same thing for television. Rob Reiner was the son of Carl Reiner, who, as both writer and performer was a key contributor to NBC's your Show of shows. That Sid Caesar series was the best sketch variety show of the 1950s. Carl Reiner then created and eventually appeared in the best TV sitcom of the 60s, the Dick Van Dyke Show. His son Rob Reiner followed down a similar path. Rob Reiner's first job in TV was as a writer on the best sketch variety series of the 60s, the Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour. Then as an actor, he co starred in one of the best and most influential TV sitcoms of the 70s, Norman Lear's all in the Family. In that long running hit sitcom, Carroll o' Connor played a bigoted queens working class homeowner named Archie Bunker. Rob Reiner played Michael Meathead Stivic, the live in son in law who was married to Archie's daughter Gloria, played by Sally Struthers. Before the series premiered, two previous versions had been filmed with other actors playing Michael and Gloria. The series only was bought by CBS though, after Rob Reiner and Sally Struthers had been cast in those roles. Reiner won two Emmys for his work on all in the Family. And his talent and chemistry with his fellow actors was obvious from the very first episode.
- [04:24]
Rob Reiner
I just want to learn a little.
- [04:25]
Jack Nicholson (as Colonel Jessup)
Bit about society so I can help people. People, your mother in law and me's people help us. Will you go to work? I know what's bothering you. You're upset because I was nailing you.
- [04:38]
Rob Reiner
On that Law and Order thing. You nailing me?
- [04:40]
Jack Nicholson (as Colonel Jessup)
Yeah, that's right. Now I'm gonna tell you something. No, no, wait a second. I'm sorry, Gloria. I know, I promise. But I feel I gotta say this. You know why we gotta break down in law and order in this country, Archie? Because we got poverty, real poverty. And you know why we got that? Because guys like you are unwilling to give the black man, the Mexican American and all the other minorities their Justin rightful hard earned share of the American dream.
- [05:05]
Terry Gross
Who said he wasn't smart?
- [05:08]
Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
That's beautiful, Michael.
- [05:10]
Terry Gross
Beautiful.
- [05:11]
David Biancolli
Rob Reiner continued to act throughout his career playing himself in the Larry Sanders show Curb youb Enthusiasm and the movie the Muse. And he also played different characters in such movies as the First Wives Club, Primary Colors and the Wolf of Wall Street. But after leaving all in the Family, Rob Reiner made his biggest mark as a film director, dabbling and succeeding in several different genres. His mockumentary this is Spinal Tap proved so durable and lovable, earlier this year it spawned a sequel. His adaptations of two Stephen King stories, Stand by Me and Misery are outstanding examples of respectively the coming of age tale and and the horror movie. And the Princess Bride, written by William Goldman and directed perfectly by Reiner, is quite simply the best family fantasy film since the wizard of Oz. Some of Reiner's visuals in his movies are indelible. The leeches in Stand By Me, the amplifier knob that goes to 11 in this is Spinal Tap, the sledgehammer swing in Misery, the grandfather reading to his grandson in the Princess Bride. Even more memorable though, are certain lines of dialogue and the way he presented them on screen. Reiner framed instantly recognizable catchphrases for Jack Nicholson on the witness stand in A Few Good Men.
- [06:36]
Jack Nicholson (as Colonel Jessup)
You can't handle the truth, farm boy.
- [06:39]
David Biancolli
In the Princess Bride.
- [06:40]
Carl Reiner
As you wish.
- [06:42]
David Biancolli
Also from the Princess Bride, Mandy Patinkin as the revenge obsessed sword fighter.
- [06:47]
Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
Hello, my name is Iniego Montoya.
- [06:50]
Rob Reiner
You killed my father. Prepare to die.
- [06:53]
David Biancolli
And Rob Reiner even gave a killer of a punchline to his own mother in a scene from When Harry Met Sally set at Katz's Deli, in which she watches another patron, played by Meg Ryan, faking an orgasm.
- [07:07]
Rob Reiner
I'll have what she's having.
- [07:09]
David Biancolli
Over his career, Rob Reiner sought out and worked with some of the best actors and writers in the business. He also was very active in political and humanitarian causes, making an impact there as well as on cinema and television.
- [07:23]
Terry Gross
David Biancooli is Fresh AIRS TV critic. I interviewed Rob Reiner in September about his life and career. The occasion for the interview was the release of his sequel to his groundbreaking 1984 mockumentary, this is Spinal Tap. The sequel, Spinal Tap 2 the End Continues is now streaming on HBO. Max this this is Spinal Tap was the most influential mockumentary and helped pave the way to movie and TV mockumentaries including the Office and Parks and Recreation. The film satirized heavy metal bands and rock documentaries. The band is known for its excesses, its loud volume, a bass player who stuffs his pants, incredibly sexist lyrics as well as on and off stage mishaps. Let's start with a song from Spinal Tap 2.
- [08:18]
Rob Reiner
In ancient times, hundreds of years before the dawn of history, lived a strange race of people, the Druids.
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Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
No one knows who they were or what they were doing.
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Rob Reiner
But their legacy remains hewn.
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Carl Reiner
Into the living rock of Stonehenge.
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Rob Reiner
Stonehenge, where the demons dwell, where the.
- [09:11]
Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
Battle age live and if you live.
- [09:14]
Rob Reiner
Well, Stonehenge where man combined and the children who dance to the pipes.
- [09:29]
Terry Gross
Rob Reiner, welcome to FRESH air. Congratulations on the sequel. I'm Very glad that you made it, and I know everyone else will be, too.
- [09:37]
Rob Reiner
Thank you.
- [09:38]
Terry Gross
One of the things that's very interesting about the film, the first and maybe particularly the sequel, is that you have a band that started off as, you know, kind of like young and rebellious and, you know, all that. And now, like Spinal Tap, they're in their 70s, and it just makes no sense for them to be singing some of the lyrics that they're singing. And that happens to a lot of bands who end up performing their old material about teenage love, you know, when they're in their 70s. But these are songs about, like, their sexual prow. And they're incredibly. Some of them are just, like, incredibly sexist. So it sounds so inappropriate in so many ways.
- [10:21]
Rob Reiner
Yeah. The beauty of these guys, the members of Spinal Tap, is that in all those years, from their 20s, 30s, up now until their 70s, they have grown neither emotionally or musically. There's no growth. They basically are in a state of arrested development for, like, 50 years. And the only growth that there is is maybe skin tabs from getting older.
- [10:52]
Terry Gross
They have to be biopsied.
- [10:54]
Rob Reiner
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [10:56]
Terry Gross
Did you want the second movie to reflect how music documentaries have changed? Because if I did my math right, like Spinal Tap, like this. Spinal Tap precedes The MTV and VH1 music documentaries that became so famous.
- [11:09]
Rob Reiner
And so there were a lot of music documentaries before we made the first film. I mean, you know, the. The Led Zeppelin had the Song Remains the Same. The who had the Kids Are All Right. And of course, you know, the Last Wall Bob. Yeah, the Last Waltz was Scorsese. And the first one was the Bob Dylan documentary by Penny Baker. You know, Don't Look Back, you know. Yeah. So there were these documentaries, but. So what we were doing was not only satirizing Heav, but we were satirizing the documentary form and the way in which documentaries were presented. And I. You know, basically the reason my character, Marty DeBurge, who's the supposedly the documentarian of the film, is in the film is because in the Last Walls I Saw. And there's Marty Scorsese. He's in the film. He's. He's documenting this last concert by the band, but he's also in the film. The first film I shot with a 16 millimeter camera. You know, it's a film camera now. We have digital cameras. And I shot with two cameras. And I try to, you know, Marty. Let's say the character Marty, who's making the film, I have to always filter it through how he would make it not necessarily how I would make it. And I try to say, will he be affected by the new modern type of techniques that they use in. In reality shows? And, you know, what. What you see up on and all that. And I think he's. He's, you know, he may try a little bit, but basically he's stuck in his own inabilities to make it any hipper or cooler than he was. So he hasn't grown all that much either.
- [12:51]
Terry Gross
I want to play one of the most famous moments from the first Spinal Tap film. And it's. It's the scene where Christopher Guest, as Nigel Tufnell, is showing you, the director of the. This documentary, his guitar equipment. And he's showing you his amp, which goes up so loud because this band prides itself on how loud it is. It goes up so high, it goes past 10 to 11. So here's an excerpt of that scene.
- [13:21]
Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you.
- [13:25]
Rob Reiner
Know what we do? Put it up to 11. 11, exactly one loud. Why don't you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number and make that a little louder.
- [13:36]
Terry Gross
These guys are 11, and he looks, like, totally baffled by what you said.
- [13:40]
Rob Reiner
What makes that funny is the long pause he gives. And the reason he gives that pause is because he doesn't know I'm going to say, why don't you make ten a little louder? I just came up with that then. And so it's. It stops him for a second, and then he says, well, these go to 11. And what's interesting is that that phrase goes to 11 is now in the Oxford English Dictionary as something that is commonly used for not just loud music, but anything that's done in excess, something that goes beyond what it normally does. So it's weird that something that we just threw off like that all of a sudden becomes part of the. The lexicon of our lives. It's. It's very strange how. How these things have taken root.
- [14:31]
Terry Gross
You started making Spinal Tap 2, the end continues in 2024, on your 77th birthday, and everyone in the movie is the same or approximately the same age as the characters they play.
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Rob Reiner
Right, Right.
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Terry Gross
Did making the film make you think more about how you've aged since the first one and all that's happened to you in between?
- [14:49]
Rob Reiner
Oh, sure. You can't ignore it. I mean, you. You know, hopefully our minds are still sharp and we're still able to, you know, as Chris Guest calls it, sch. We can schnadle with each Other back and forth. But yeah, word for improv. Yeah, yeah. He says, you know, we schnatal with each other, which is true. I mean, and what's interesting is that after 15 years of not, you know, working together, we came back and started looking at this and seeing if we could come up with an idea and we started schnadling right away. It was like falling right back in with friends that you hadn't talked to in a long time. It's like jazz musicians, you know, you just fall in and do what you do.
- [15:32]
Terry Gross
You are part of so many comedy related things and so are your friends. So I'm gonna start with like your father was Carl Reiner.
- [15:40]
Rob Reiner
Yes.
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Terry Gross
And he created the Dick Van Dyke show and before that wrote for and acted in Sid Caesar shows back in the 1950s. Albert Brooks, your good friend from high school, you made a movie about him. You did an act with Joey Bishop's son before he made movies. You co founded an improv group and did a lot of improv. In the 70s you were on one of the most popular and groundbreaking sitcoms, all in the Family. You wrote with Steve Martin for the Smothers Brothers summer replacement show. Early in your career, you were the third host of Saturday Night Live. I mean, I could go on. You have three movies in the National Film Registry. When Harry Met Sally, the Princess Bride, and this is Spinal Tap. Yikes. That's like so much comedy history.
- [16:29]
Rob Reiner
I'm tired, Terry. I'm tired.
- [16:32]
Terry Gross
When you read that when you make a friend or meet somebody, is being funny one of the first traits you look for in someone?
- [16:40]
Rob Reiner
Well, you know, it's interesting. Yes, of course. You want to, you know, connect with somebody that, you know, you can connect with on the same level. When I was young, you know, you mentioned, you know, my dad and, and Sid Caesar, you know, he also did to me the greatest comedy albums ever done with Mel Brooks called, you know, the 2000 year old man. And to me they're the hippest, funniest comedy albums ever. And when I was a kid and teenager and I come home from school, I would put on one of the album. I did it almost every day for a long time. And I listened to it because I thought, God, this is so brilliant. And that was improvised too. I thought, you know, when I met somebody, if they dug the 2000 year old man and they could quote lines from it, I knew it was somebody I could connect with because they were on the same wavelength as I. It was like a good test to see if this is somebody I could.
- [17:38]
Terry Gross
Connect with was the 2000 year old man album and subsequent versions of it. One of the reasons why you wanted to do improv?
- [17:49]
Rob Reiner
Well, no, not really. I mean, I, that's something I always, you know, I, I was drawn to. I mean, I, I loved Second City, I love the committee. I used to go visit the committee one up when they were up in San Francisco. And we got the idea when I was at UCLA, I guess I was about 18 or 19 at the time, to start our own improvisation group. And I wanted to do what my dad did. I, you know, when I was a little boy, my parents said, I came up to them and I said, you know, I want to change my name. I was about eight years old, I guess I said, I want to change my name. And they said, they were, oh my God, this poor kid, he's worried about being in the shadow of a famous guy and living up to and all this. And they said, well, what do you want to change your name to? And I said, Carl. And, and they said, I said I loved him so much. I just wanted to be like him, you know, and I wanted to what he did. And I just looked up to him so much. So, yeah, I was surrounded by all of this. And I look at, there's a picture in my office of all the writers who wrote for Sid Caesar and the show of shows over the nine years, I guess, that they were on. And when you look at that picture, you're basically looking at everything you ever laughed at in the first half of the 20th century. I mean, there's Mel Brooks, there's my dad, there's Neil Simon, there's Woody Allen, there's Larry Gelbart, I mean, Joe Stein who wrote Fiddler on the Roof, Aaron Rubin, who created the Andy Griffith show, everybody, anything you ever laughed at is represented by those people. So these are the people I, I look up to and these are people that were around me, you know, as a kid growing up.
- [19:42]
Terry Gross
Did you ever want to be in a band? Because so many people in the entertainment world at some point wanted to be in a band.
- [19:49]
Rob Reiner
Of course I did, you know, I.
- [19:50]
Terry Gross
Mean, did you ever play?
- [19:52]
Rob Reiner
I can sing. I can sing and I can sing on pitch, but that's about it. And I, you know, I would have killed to be able to. I love blues. I'm a big fan of blues. I mean, I can, I listen to any blues guitarist. I, you know, you got me hooked. And when I saw Michael Bloomfield, who played with the Paul Butterfield Blues Band and then played with a band called Electric Flag. I said, wow, God. And he's Jewish, you know, he's a white Jewish guy and he's playing the blues and he's bet and he's unbelievable. And I thought, boy, I would just kill to be like Michael Bloomfield. Just the playing of the music, not the other parts, which weren't so good for him.
- [20:37]
Terry Gross
We're listening to the interview I recorded with Rob Reiner in September. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH air.
- [20:47]
Rob Reiner
Do you remember the first song that you guys ever wrote together? All the Way Home? Probably, yeah. All the Way Home, yeah. Can you remember a little bit of it? I'd love to hear Christmas, some black coffee maybe?
- [21:01]
Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
How's it go? Beside the railroad track and I'm waiting for that train to bring you back Bring me back.
- [21:15]
Rob Reiner
If she's, if, if, if she's not.
- [21:17]
Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
On the 519, then I'm going to know what sorrow means and I'm going to cry, cry, cry all the way home all the way home all the way home all the way home all the way home Cry, cry all the way Cry, cry, cry all the way home.
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Rob Reiner
Yeah. Fairly simple.
- [21:35]
Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
It's about six, six words in the whole song. Well, I'm sitting here beside the railroad track and I'm waiting for that train to bring her back. If you're not on the 519 then I'm gonn. I know what sorrow means and I'm gonna cry, cry, cry all the way home all the way home all the way home all the way home all the way home yes, I'm gonna cry, cry, cry all the way home. Now her daddy never liked me this he said and he could not get it through his old bread that I loved his daughter so did not mean to see Now I'm going to cry, cry, cry all the way home all the way home all the way home all the way home all the way home. Yes.
- [22:39]
Terry Gross
No.
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Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
Cry, cry, cry all the way home. Here it come. Here it come. All the way home. All the way home. All the way home. One more time. All the way home. All the way home.
- [23:21]
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- [24:51]
Terry Gross
So I want to play a scene from A Few Good Men, and this scene has that very famous line, you can't handle the truth. But it's so like he and Tom Cruise. Tom Cruise is prosecuting the colonel played by Nicholson, who's being court martialed. So this is like the dramatic climax to that whole part of the story. And so I want to play that scene. And I have a very specific question for you, which is, in directing Jack Nicholson, how do you draw the line between giving a lot and giving too much? You know, like, where is the line between, like, chewing the scenery and a great dramatic performance? So let's listen to the scene.
- [25:39]
Jack Nicholson (as Colonel Jessup)
You want answers? I think I'm entitled. You want answers? I want the truth. You can't handle the truth. Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it?
- [25:53]
Rob Reiner
You?
- [25:53]
Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
You?
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Jack Nicholson (as Colonel Jessup)
Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the Very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
- [27:02]
Terry Gross
So Rob Reiner, you directed A Few Good Men, which that scene is from. So with Nicholson, he's a great actor, but some great actors can just give a little too much sometimes. And that's such a heightened scene. Did you have to figure out, is that enough? Is that too much?
- [27:24]
Rob Reiner
I tell you, with Jack Nicholson, he's one of the greatest actors of all time. He's in the pantheon of all time great movie stars and actors. And his instincts are impeccable. You don't have to tell Jack Nicholson to hold back or, you know, give more, whatever he knows what he needs to do. Interestingly enough, like any really, to my opinion, really great actor. He doesn't mind if there's a humorous thing or something that needs a line reading. He doesn't mind if you give. He'll say, how do you want me to say that? Because he likes, it's like a great musician, he wants to hear the notes. How, how do you say it? And since I, you know, that's one of the things I do, he, you know, he'll say, how do you want me to say that? And he's, he's happy to take a line reading.
- [28:11]
Terry Gross
Can you give us an example?
- [28:13]
Rob Reiner
The first day of rehearsal, you do a table read. You know, you sit around, you read the script. The performance that you see on film is the same performance he gave in the read around the table. And normally actors will just kind of mark it just to hear, but he gave a full out performance and it sent a message to all the other actors, Tom Cruise, Demi Moore, Kiefer Sutherland, you know, Kevin Bacon and Kevin, all the actors that were there that we came to play here, this is, you know, this is what we do. And it put everybody in a place. It's like being on a baseball team and watching Babe Ruth step into the batting cage before the game and he's hitting one ball after the other out of the park. And so they said, oh, we got to step up our games too. And Jack is smart because he knows that the more he gives, the more he's going to get back and it's going to make other people's performances better and that ultimately is going to make his performance better.
- [29:14]
Terry Gross
So more to react to.
- [29:16]
Rob Reiner
Yeah. And when we, when we did that scene, the famous, you know, you can't handle the truth scene. I asked him, I said, Jack, you know, you got this great speech and, you know, I can either shoot the coverage, meaning the reaction shots, or and have you off camera or I can, if you're ready, I'll shoot you now and then, you know, I get the reaction shots later. He said, well, why don't you shoot the reaction shots, you know, and that way it'll give me a chance to work into it. I said, fine. So he's off camera and I'm shooting, you know, a shot for Tom Cruise and one of the me and one of the of Kevin Bacon. And, you know, I got different angles. And every time we go through the scene, he gives the exact same performance, the one you see on camera. At one point I go back to Jack. I said, Jack, you, you know, maybe you want to wait and hold some of this back, you know, you know, when I turn around the camera and you be on you, you'll have everything, you know, you don't want to waste it here. He says, no, Rob, you don't understand. I love to act. He said, this is a great part, and I don't get a chance to play great parts that often. So that was him, what he did off camera, what he did at the reading. What you see on camera is what you get from Jack Nicholson.
- [30:30]
Terry Gross
We're listening to the interview I recorded with Rob Reiner in September. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
- [30:39]
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- [30:45]
Terry Gross
Pass it on, ensure its future with a donation today.
- [30:49]
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- [31:37]
Terry Gross
You decided to give your mother what turned out to be the most famous, most quoted line from When Harry Met Sally. This takes place in the deli, very famous deli In Manhattan, Katz's Deli, when Meg Ryan and Billy Crystal, their characters are having lunch together, they're friends, and Billy Crystal's kind of, like, going on about his dating life, how good it is and how satisfied, sexually satisfied, the women he's dating are. And Meg Ryan is a little skeptical, and she says, how do you know that it's real? I mean, how can you judge if what they're expressing is real or not? And he goes, oh, I know. And she goes, oh, really? And then she starts faking the noises as if she's having an orgasm. And everyone in the deli stops eating. Everyone's staring at her. Billy Crystal's watching people stare at him and Meg Ryan, and she's going on and on. And then your mother has this famous line that when Meg Ryan is done, that your mother says to the waiter, so let's play a short excerpt of that.
- [32:47]
Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
Oh.
- [32:48]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
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- [32:49]
Terry Gross
Oh, God. Oh.
- [32:55]
Rob Reiner
I'll have what she's having.
- [32:58]
Terry Gross
I'll have what she's having. How did you decide? Oh, that's the line I'm giving my mother.
- [33:02]
Rob Reiner
Well, first of all, Billy Crystal came up with that line. We had the scene. We knew we were going to do a scene where Meg was going to fake an orgasm in an incongruous place like a deli. And Billy came up with the line, I'll have what she's having. And when he did, and he came up with it, you know, before we went to New York, he came up with. In rehearsal, I said, we need to find somebody, an older Jewish woman who could deliver that line, which would seem incongruous. And I thought of my mother, because my mother had done a couple of little things. She did a thing in a movie that Ann Bancroft directed called Fatso, and she did a couple of other little things. And so I thought, well, she'd be perfect for it. And so I asked her if she wanted to do it, and she said, sure. And I said, now, listen, mom, you know, we don't know. Hopefully that'll be the topper of the scene. It'll get the big laugh. And if it doesn't, you know, I may have to cut it out, because I know the scene is funny with Meg doing that. And she said, that's fine. You know, I just want to spend the day with you. I'll go to Katz's. I'll get a hot dog. You know, whatever it is, she was fine with it. You know, she was okay. And then when we did the scene, the first couple of times through Meg was kind of tepid about it. She didn't, you know, give it her all. She didn't go full out. And so I said, let's try it again. And she was nervous. She's in front of, you know, the crew, and there's extras and people. She did it a few times, and then it was never exactly what eventually wound up in the film. And at one point, I get in there and I said, meg, let me show you what I meant. And I sat opposite Billy, and I'm acting it out, and I'm going, pounding the table. And I'm going, yes, yes, yes. I'm pounding the table. And. And then. And then I turned to Billy, I said, billy is embarrassing here. Oh, she. What? He says, I just had an orgasm in front of my mother. But. But then Meg came in, and she did it, obviously way better than I could do it.
- [35:02]
Terry Gross
So I interviewed your father back in 1988, and I don't know if you ever heard that.
- [35:09]
Rob Reiner
I haven't. I'm sure it was great. He's great to talk with.
- [35:13]
Terry Gross
So there was an excerpt where I asked him about you, and I want to play that excerpt. Is that okay? Yeah. You want to hear it?
- [35:19]
David Biancolli
Yeah, sure.
- [35:19]
Terry Gross
Sure. Okay.
- [35:19]
Rob Reiner
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:20]
Terry Gross
So this is Carl Reiner, Rob Reiner's father, in 1988. Let me ask you about your son, Rob Reiner. He first became an acting star in all in the Family as Meathead, and then he became a director directing movies like Princess Bride, Spinal Tap, Stand By Me. Did you ever expect him to go into show business?
- [35:41]
Carl Reiner
Not. Not when he was very young, although he had a tremendous ability to remember everything he'd ever seen. I mean, he's one of these kids who absorbs. He was one of those kids who absorbed everything he saw on television and movies. But he never stated it loudly that he was going to do, but in his heart, he wanted to be a director, always. Isn't that amazing? And he only told us about it later. When he was about 19 years old, I saw him direct a Ricky Dreyfuss, and he were friends when they were in high school, and he directed a version of no Exit by Sartre, and it was brilliant. He was only about 18 or 19 at the time. At that point, his road was starting to be paved. He wanted to be a director, and there was no question that he knew that. And he wasn't telling it to everybody, because, you know, when you're young, you say, I want to be a director. I say, I get out of here. And he had it in his mind, I'm sure all the time he was on all in the Family, he was planning it.
- [36:31]
Terry Gross
Do you show each other your work?
- [36:33]
Carl Reiner
Oh, yes. Last, you're asking something very, very current. You're the first one. Fresh Air has got the first piece of information about this. Last night I saw a preview. Not a preview, a rough cut of Rob's new movie, which he's not sure of the title yet. So far, it's Harry, this is Sally, or Sally, this is Harry. I'm not sure of the title. With Billy Crystal, Meg Ryan, Carrie Fisher and Bruno Kirby. Well, I'm going to go on record as saying it is the most beautiful, successful, glorious romantic comedy that I have ever seen. I called Rob today and I said, gee, whether I'm your father or not has nothing to do with this. I mean, that is a masterwork of movie making.
- [37:18]
Terry Gross
Do you remember him telling you that? And was that an important affirmation for you?
- [37:23]
Rob Reiner
You know, some. First of all, just hearing his voice, it's got to me a little bit there. You know, I miss him, you know, and I still hear him, you know, all the time in my head. So to listen to that was pretty. Pretty amazing.
- [37:45]
Terry Gross
Do you want a moment?
- [37:47]
Rob Reiner
It's all right. It's all right. I mean, you know, he talked about the, you know, the time I directed no Exit. And that was the first time that he ever acknowledged that. That he, He. He thought I was, you know, I was good at what I was doing. He came backstage after the performance and he looked me in the eye and he said, that was good, no bullshit. And that's the first time you ever said anything like that to me. And so I guess it wasn't until I was 19 that he validated that to me. And then I came to visit him at the house. After. After he said that, I. I visited him. You know, I was living away at the time, and I was sitting with him in the backyard, and he said to me, I'm not worried about you. You're going to be great at whatever you do. You know, he lives in my head all the time, and, you know, he's. He had two great guides in my life. I had my dad and then Norman Lears, like a second father. So I, you know, they're both gone, but they're both with me always.
- [39:03]
Terry Gross
Your father said that he didn't find out until later that you wanted to direct. Did you not tell him that you wanted to direct?
- [39:10]
Rob Reiner
No, no. And it wasn't until I did Stand by Me that I really started to feel very separate and apart from my father, because the first film I did was, you know, this is Spinal Tap, which was a satire, and my father had trafficked in satire with Sid Caesar for many years. And then the second film I did was a film called the sure Thing, which was a romantic comedy for young people. And my father had done romantic comedy. You know, the Van Dyke show is a romantic comedy, a series. But when I did Stand By Me, it was the one that was closest to me because I was. I was one of four friends. And I felt that my father didn't, you know, love me or understand me. And it was the character of Gordy that expressed those things. And the film was a combination of nostalgia, emotion, and a lot of humor. And it was a real reflection of my personality. It was an extension, really, of my sensibility. And when it became successful, I said, oh, okay, I can go in the direction that I want to go in and not feel like I have to, you know, mirror everything my father has done up till then.
- [40:22]
Terry Gross
You know, you just said you felt like your father didn't love or understand you when you were growing up. But you've also talked about how much you loved your father and wanted to be like him. You even wanted to take on his name at some point, call yourself Carl Reiner. Those two things seem contradictory.
- [40:37]
Rob Reiner
Well, they're not. Because loving your father and looking up to your father doesn't necessarily mean you're feeling that back, that you're feeling that from him. And the scene in Stand By Me where the boys finally find the dead body, and they're sitting there and Gordy starts to cry, and, you know, he's sitting there with River Phoenix, who plays Chris Chambers, and he says, my father didn't love me. And Chris says, no, he did love you. He just didn't know you. And that scene. I wrote that scene in a hotel room in Oregon, in Eugene, Oregon, when we were shooting up there. And as I was writing that scene, I start crying because that's the way I felt.
- [41:31]
Terry Gross
We're listening to the interview I recorded with Rob Reiner in September. There was a part of our interview which we didn't have time to include in our September broadcast about his film Being Charlie, which he made with his son Nick. Listening to that segment now, it has an especially sad resonance. I want to ask you about a movie that you made in 2015, which is called Being Charlie. And your son co wrote it, you directed it, and it seems like it's semi autobiographical because your son had dealt with A drug addiction?
- [42:07]
Rob Reiner
Yeah, no, he did and was in rehab.
- [42:09]
Terry Gross
And the story is about a teenager who is going through that as well. And the father in the movie is running for governor and doesn't really have time for his son during the campaign. And, you know, and is very active.
- [42:29]
Rob Reiner
I think he's, it's worse than not having time. He thinks that, that his son's problems are going to hurt him.
- [42:36]
Terry Gross
Exactly. Hurt the campaign.
- [42:38]
Rob Reiner
Yeah. Yeah.
- [42:38]
Terry Gross
And so, you know, when it comes to the decision of like, should we do tough love and, you know, do an intervention and force him to go to rehab, the father is very in favor of that, in part, I think, because of what you just said, that he is afraid that his son's addiction will interfere with the campaign. And so that's part of the dynamic of the movie with it being like semi autobiographical. Autobiographical. Did you feel like your son was sending you the message that you were sometimes too busy to pay attention to him or that I was never. That you were worried it would interfere with your career?
- [43:17]
Rob Reiner
No, no, I was, I, I was never ever too busy. I mean, I, I mean, if anything, I was the other way. You know, I was more hands on and trying to do whatever I thought I could do to help. And, you know, I, I, I'm sure I made mistakes. And, you know, I've talked about that with him since, you know, he's been great. He's, you know, hasn't been doing drug for over six years. I mean, he's, he's in a really good place.
- [43:43]
Terry Gross
I'm really glad to hear that.
- [43:44]
Rob Reiner
Much better place. He's a good place now. But at the time I thought, well, this will be an opportunity to, to look at what happened, you know, to him and to me. And so it is very loosely based on, you know, I had political aspirations at certain points in my life, so I made that character that way. And his character is not exactly how he was. And if you'd asked my son Nick, he would say it's not the film he would have made. You know, he would have made a completely different film. But for me, I had read this book called Beautiful Boy and I think they made a movie about it.
- [44:23]
Terry Gross
They did. The book is by David Sheff and his son.
- [44:26]
Rob Reiner
Right, right. And I think Steve Carell was in it or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, Chef wrote the book and then his son wrote another book which was his point of view. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. Let's, let's put both of our points of view and see if we can put that into a film and, you know, I think it works. It's not, I could say it's not the film my son would have made, but it's, I was directing and it's the film I would make because it's what, you know, sort of what I went through. But my character, me personally, was much way, way more hands on than the character that Carrie Elwis plays in the movie.
- [45:09]
Terry Gross
I like the movie a lot. Was it a good bonding experience to make it with your son?
- [45:14]
Rob Reiner
It was when we did it, I mean, certainly. And then we had fun because when we promoted it, we go on Howard Stern and that was fun to be able to do things like that with them. But I think, you know, he probably feels like, oh, gee, I, you know, I would have done it differently. I think that's what he feels. But it was a, it was a, it was a movie that was used as a teaching tool in a lot of, you know, rehab facilities and things like that. So, you know, I think we, we, you know, it served a good purpose at the time.
- [45:48]
Terry Gross
I think something that I think is.
- [45:50]
Rob Reiner
And I love the film. I love it. I think it's a great film.
- [45:53]
Terry Gross
Rob Reiner, from our conversation, which was recorded in September, will hear the conclusion of the interview after a break. This is FRESH air.
- [46:02]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
Most of the time, people with prostate.
- [46:04]
Terry Gross
Cancer don't have any symptoms. That was the case for Montel Jordan.
- [46:08]
Rob Reiner
There was nothing that I woke up one day and said, you know what? I think I have cancer. Like there was no indicator.
- [46:13]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
And that's why it's so important to get routine screenings.
- [46:16]
Terry Gross
On the Life Kit podcast, we'll talk.
- [46:18]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
About risk factors for prostate cancer and.
- [46:21]
Terry Gross
What you can do if you're diagnosed. Listen on the NPR app or wherever.
- [46:25]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
You get your podcasts. Tis the season, you'll find plenty of good holiday movies, films that can be counted upon to deliver warmth and cheer and bad holiday movies. They can be fun in their own way. So we're debating what's the worst holiday movie of all time? And yes, we'll be talking about love, actually. Listen to Pop culture Happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.
- [46:49]
Rob Reiner
Regular insurance is great for your standard day to day risks, but for those.
- [46:52]
David Biancolli
Once in a generation catastrophes, countries like.
- [46:54]
Terry Gross
Jamaica have made other preparations. We all realize that hurricanes are inevitable.
- [47:00]
Rob Reiner
And we can't just sit here and hope.
- [47:03]
Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
We had to be proactive on Planet.
- [47:05]
Jack Nicholson (as Colonel Jessup)
Money how Jamaica weathered the worst hurricane.
- [47:08]
Terry Gross
In the country's history with a bet.
- [47:10]
Rob Reiner
Planet Money Listen on The NPR app.
- [47:11]
Terry Gross
Or wherever you get your podcasts. So I have to ask you about all in the Family, which was such a popular show in the 1970s and kind of controversial for its depiction of the generation gap between the parents and the daughter who is married to you. You're the son in law in it, and you're very liberal, and the father's really conservative. And that's a constant battle between the two of you. That's one of the main themes throughout the series. But, you know, Norman Lear was very liberal. He founded, you know, People for the American Way. What was that experience like for you? Like, how old were you when you first started performing in that. The series started in 71, right?
- [47:57]
Rob Reiner
I was 23. And this is, to me, what's interesting about all this. And it was groundbreaking. At the time, nobody had done a show like this. Cbs, when they put it on, they had a big disclaimer at the beginning saying, you know, the views that are represented in the show don't represent the views of cv. It basically was a disclaimer saying, I don't know how this show got on here, but you want to watch it, you watch it at your own risk. You know, we don't.
- [48:24]
Terry Gross
Don't sue us.
- [48:25]
Rob Reiner
Yeah, don't, don't, don't. Yeah, I don't know. Somebody put it on anyway. But here's what was interesting about this. We were a country at that time of about 200 million people, and we were number one in America for five years straight, every single week. And every week, 40 to 45 million people watched that show. And they had to watch it when it was on because There was no TiVo, there was no DVR, no video cassettes, nothing. Now we're a country of, you know, upwards of 340 million people. And if you can get 5 to 10 million people watching a show on a given night that's a huge hit, and they're not all watching it at the same time.
- [49:13]
Terry Gross
Well, there's politics itself that has become like, everybody talks about that. But pop culture is no longer the glue that it once was, because there are so many options that everybody is doing their own thing and not watching or listening at the same time. So I know exactly what you're saying. What was it like for you to be famous at that age? You were already from a famous father and had.
- [49:38]
Rob Reiner
That helped. That helped.
- [49:40]
Terry Gross
You went to school with the children of very famous people, and other people you went to school with were becoming famous, too. But what was it like personally to have people recognize you did that make you feel good? Was it feeling intrusive?
- [49:54]
Rob Reiner
I gotta tell you, it was bizarre, you know, to be on a show of that power and that reach. It was like being in the Beatles. I mean, you'd go into a restaurant or you'd go into. I remember one time that Gene Stapleton and myself, Sally Strother, walked into a. An airport restaurant and the entire restaurant stood up and cheered and started applauding. It was that kind of response that you don't see so much now, you know, with people in television. So it was. That was strange. But you have to take it with a grain of salt because you want to entertain them and you hope that you do. But it doesn't matter what they think. You have to do something you like to do, and hopefully other people will like it too.
- [50:44]
Terry Gross
Rob Reiner, thank you so much. It was really been a pleasure to talk with you and thank you for the Spinal Tap movies.
- [50:50]
Rob Reiner
Well, thank you so much for having me.
- [50:53]
Terry Gross
My interview with Rob Reiner was recorded in September. We send our condolences to everyone who knew and loved him and his wife, Michelle Singer Reiner. Fresh Air's co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. We'll end today's show with Harry Connick. From the soundtrack of When Harry Met Sally.
- [51:13]
Various Actors (e.g., Christopher Guest, Billy Crystal)
It seems we stood and talked like this before. We looked at each other in the same way then But I can't remember where or when. The clothes you're wearing are the clothes you wore, the smile you are smiling, you were smiling then But I can't remember where or when. Some things that happened for the first time.
- [52:21]
Rob Reiner
On Wait, Wait, don't tell me.
- [52:22]
David Biancolli
Famous actors remember their days of obscurity. Like when Pedro Pascal remembered the stress.
- [52:27]
Rob Reiner
Of being a waiter, the logistical labor of meeting everyone's needs in the right manner. You know, act one, the water. Act two, the drink. Listen to Wait, Wait and the the.
- [52:40]
David Biancolli
End of or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [52:46]
NPR Announcer
It's been a fantastic year for movies.
- [52:48]
Rob Reiner
And we know you can't see them all. So we're recommending some great films that.
- [52:51]
NPR Announcer
Might have flown under the radar to.
- [52:53]
Rob Reiner
Add to your watch list. Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [53:01]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
Six, seven, like the numbers six and seven, is a kid's meme that parents are trying to make sense of.
- [53:08]
Terry Gross
My dad is trying to understand what 6, 7 is.
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NPR Sponsor Announcer
I kind of feel bad for the.
- [53:12]
Rob Reiner
Par kids, but is there more that.
- [53:14]
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