Steve Cropper (2:46)

I grew up kind of on the Grand Ole Opry and the.

Steve Cropper (2:50)

Kind of Louisiana Hayride kind of stuff.

Terry Gross (2:53)

Well, you know what's really interesting about that is that you ended up playing mostly with black singers and playing in integrated bands. How did you get exposed to black music after being used to Grand Ole Opry stuff?

Steve Cropper (3:06)

Well, that was really the thing when I got a chance to have my own radio and start turning the knobs. I found one night on WDIA black spiritual music. I'd never heard it before and it just blew me away, the feeling, the excitement of it and that sort of thing. I grew up in the Church of Christ, which is, in those days, basically acapella singing, and I was very used to religious music, and I liked it. But here was a new twist on it. It had a beat and it was, you know, what we call funky now. And that was really, I think, the turning point in my interest in music. There was a music there that I really couldn't get enough of, and I just loved it.

Terry Gross (3:48)

When you started playing guitar, did you have a sense of where you could fit in musically into the kind of music that you liked Most of the.

Steve Cropper (3:54)

Well, I think so. Definitely was spiritual because it was a rhythm thing. It wasn't so much lead and all of that. I really wasn't all that interested in intricate kind of music from a classical standpoint or from a country fiddle and that sort of thing. I like listening to it, but I didn't have any desire to get an instrument and try to copy that. I never really was a lead player. I never tried to be a lead player. I've been lucky enough to have played a few solos on some great artist records, but really, I'm a rhythm man. And my best forte, I think, is capturing the feel of a song during its inception in the studio. I think that's where I'm best. Even though people fly me in all over to play on their records in Overdub, I think they would be better using me on the ground floor as a building block rather than as a cherry on the cake.

Terry Gross (4:48)

You had your first hit with a band called the Marquis, and.

Terry Gross (4:55)

It wasn't long after that that you became affiliated with Stax Records. You became the guitarist in the house rhythm section. You became a producer, you became a songwriter with Florest Weekend Floor. Stax.

Brittany Luce (5:06)

Yeah.

Steve Cropper (5:07)

Tape copier and editor.

Terry Gross (5:09)

How did you get affiliated with Stax?

Steve Cropper (5:11)

Well, it started Charles Axton, the tenor player. And the funny story about Charles Axton.

Terry Gross (5:16)

He was the tenor player with the Marquise.

Steve Cropper (5:18)

He was a tenor player with the Marquis. He was on the record last night and everything.

Steve Cropper (5:23)

He came to me and he said, I hear you guys got a pretty good band. He said, you know, I play saxophone. I'd like to be in your band. And I said, well, I'm not really interested. I don't think we're interested in adding horns to the group. And I said, how long have you been playing? And he said, oh, I've been taking lessons for three months. And I'm going, oh, yeah, great. And somewhere in the conversation he goes, oh, by the way, my mother owns a recording studio. And I said, can you show up for rehearsal on Saturday?

Steve Cropper (5:49)

And that is a true story. I may stretch it a little bit, but that's the actual truth. And we went out. His uncle Jim Stewart, the owner of Stax Records, had a little studio in his garage in Memphis, and we went out there and jammed around. And then they moved from his garage to a little place out in Brunswick, Tennessee, where they had the Satellite label. And we would go out there every weekend and play and all that. And of course, Jim Stewart said, we never had a chance, we'd never make it. I think he just was being devil's advocate to just see if he could push us into something. And we kept trying. We cut a bunch of instrumentals, some crazy little things that never saw the light of day. And until the time that we came up with last night. But what happened was Estelle. I don't know Estelle Axton, I don't know if she saw any talent there or what she saw, but she liked me enough to keep me around, and she put me to work in her record shop and I sold records. That's what I did. And I kept working. On.

Steve Cropper (6:49)

The weekends, I would kind of do a little A and R ing because people were always coming in. And on Saturdays, I would hold auditions because people were always bringing in songs and all that. And that's sort of how I got started in the A and R thing. And finally Jim said, wait a minute. He said, steve's spending more time in the studio than he is in the record shop and whatever. And so they got together and decided that I would start getting my salary from the record company rather than the record shop. And I started working, I guess, A and R full time at that point.

Terry Gross (7:21)

Well, you with the group. Booker t and the MGs had the hit of Green Onions, and I think this was a big hit, and it helped out Stax Records a lot.

Terry Gross (7:34)

How did the four of you, Booker T. Al Jackson, Donald Duck Dunn and yourself, get to play together and become the house rhythm section?

Steve Cropper (7:44)

Well, what it all stemmed from, basically, was there we were with all this great success doing the Dick Clark show and everything as the Marquees. And we had this big hit record last night, and it was a lot of fun. And then all of a sudden, it wasn't fun anymore. It became work and what you call road burden and that sort of thing. And seven of us or eight of us traveling in one car and trying to make all these shows. And I found out that I wasn't too happy with the road and so what I really wanted to do was get back in the studio. I mean, I already knew that. That's what I wanted to do anyway. That's what I did. I came back to Memphis, I went to work in the studio again. I helped put together the rhythm section. I found out I'd been playing with another band called the Club Handy Band. And we had done some sessions for Don Robie. I think. I don't even remember which songs, but I played on the five Blind Boys albums. I played on LT And T. Braggs. I think there was some Bobby Blueblad stuff that. That I played on. But I played with a lot of those musicians. And we were asking around to find out who was a real good keyboard player. We had used several and they said, there's this kid, he's still in school, named Booker T. Jones and he's incredible. And they had worked with him on a lot of other stuff and on stage as well. And so we got Booker over on a session and everybody just fell in love with him.

Terry Gross (9:03)

Let me play some of Green Onions. And because we're only going to play an excerpt, I'm going to start this a little in. Because I want to get to your guitar solo in. So this is Green Onions, Booker T. And the MGs.

Terry Gross (9:45)

You co wrote Dock of the Bay with Otis Redding and you produced the record as well, right?

Steve Cropper (9:52)

Right, Correct.

Terry Gross (9:55)

What was your collaboration with him like when it came to writing songs?

Steve Cropper (9:59)

Well, of course we wrote a lot of songs together.

Steve Cropper (10:03)

The inception of DOC of the Bay was really no different than any other one. Otis was one of those kind of guys who had a hundred ideas and he always had with him, anytime he came in to record 10 or 15 different pretty good ideas, either intros or titles or whatever. And he had been in San Francisco doing the Fillmore and the story that I got, he had rented a boathouse or stayed out at a boathouse or something. That's when he got the idea of watching the ships come in the bay there. And that's about all he had. I watched the ships come in, watch them roll away again and sitting on the dock of the bay. And I just took that, we just sat down and I just kind of learned the changes that he was kind of running over. And I finished the lyrics. And if you listen to songs that I collaborated with with Otis, most of the lyrics are about him. Well, he never really. He might say the big O in a song or something like that. But Otis didn't really write about himself. But I did songs like Mr. Pitiful Sad Song. Fa Fa. They were all about Otis and Otis life. And Dock of the Bay is exactly that. I left my home in Georgia, headed for the Frisco Bay. It was all about him going out to San Francisco perform. And that's kind of the way I wrote with Otis. I wrote the bridge and stuff like that and that's the way we collaborated. He trusted me, you know, I always seemed to do the things that he liked, you know, worked on songs that came out the way he wanted them. And I also worked on a lot of songs with Otis arrangement wise and helped him put them together and all that where I didn't, you know, claim any writers or anything because it wasn't necessary. Otis had most of it finished to begin with and I just helped him do it. But a lot of these things where he had just bits and pieces, I would actually put them together and we'd make whole songs out of them and go on the next day and record them. So we had a lot of fun together. Otis was a great guy to work with and he was a great friend.

Terry Gross (11:52)

Well, let's listen to the record. This is Doc of the Bay.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (11:56)

Sitting in the morning sun.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (12:00)

I'll be sitting when the evening comes.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (12:05)

Watching the ships roll in and then I watch them roll away again yeah, I'm sitting on the dock of the bay Watching the tide roll away. Ooh, I'm just sitting on the dark of a bay wasting time.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (12:33)

I left my home in Georgia Headed for the Frisco Bay.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (12:42)

Cause I've had nothing to live for it look like nothing's gonna come my way. So I'm just gonna sit on the dark little bay Watching the tide roll away. Ooh, I'm sitting on a darker bay wasting time.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (13:11)

Looks like nothing's gonna change.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (13:16)

Everything still remains the same. I can't do what 10 people tell me to do So I guess I'll remain the same.

Steve Cropper (13:28)

Listen.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (13:29)

Sitting here resting my bones and this loneliness won't leave me alone. This 2000 miles I roam.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (13:42)

Just to make this dot my home. Now I'm just gonna sit at the dock of a bay Watching the tideline roll away.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (13:57)

Sitting on a darker bay wasting time.

Terry Gross (14:24)

I want to ask you about another record and this is also a song you co wrote. You co wrote this one with Wilson Pickett and it's midnight Hour. This was, I think for the first session that you played with Wilson Pickett, right?

Steve Cropper (14:36)

It was.

Terry Gross (14:37)

Tell me about writing the song with him.

Steve Cropper (14:38)

Well, it was real simple. We knew that he was coming down and of course My connection with the record shop. And I went up and found some stuff that he had sung on. Of course he sang with the Falcons, and he had sang some spiritual things. It seemed like every time he sang lead on something, when he got down to the fade out, he would go, oh, wait till the midnight hour Whoa, see my Jesus in the midnight hour and all that stuff. I said, that's the guy's id. So I just took that right there and presented it to him with a little idea. He had a couple ideas. And what happened was that we picked him up at the airport. They dropped us off at the hotel, and Jerry Wexler and Jim Stewart went out to get something to eat and just talk business. And when they came back, I don't know, it was a couple hours later. We had in the Midnight Hour written and Don't Fight It. They said, we're going to get out of here and let you guys keep going. And they left. And we wrote a thing called I'm Not Tired. And we went in the studio the next day, recorded all three songs, and all three songs were hits. Very lucky me.

Terry Gross (15:35)

Well, let's hear. In the midnight hour.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (15:50)

I'm gonna wait till the midnight hour that's when my love comes tumbling down I'm gonna wait till the midnight hour when there's no one else around I'm gonna take you down and hold you and do all the things I told you at the midnight hour Yes, I am oh, yes, I am One more thing I just wanna say Ready?

Terry Gross (16:26)

I'm gonna wait this is Wilson Pickett in the Midnight Hour, co written by my guest Steve Cropper, who's featured on guitar. You also did a lot of work playing behind Sam and Dave. And Sam and Dave were the inspiration for the Ackroyd and Belushi group, the Blues Brothers. And you played with them as well. What did you think of the Blues Brothers when they got started or when you got started or whatever? What'd you think of? Did you think that it was a parody that was in bad taste at all? You know, like two white guys doing their parody of black singers to white guys who probably fantasize about themselves sometimes of being black singers. But what was your take on it?

Steve Cropper (17:11)

Well, you know, they got a lot of bad rap on that, I think, initially. And a lot of people, for some reason thought that John and Danny were kind of scoffing black musicians. For some reason. That's not the case at all. And what I found out was really the contrary to all of that. They had such a love for that kind of music, for rhythm and blues and so forth. And I couldn't believe I went to John's house one day and he showed me a collection of blues stuff that just blew me away. I'd never seen that big of a collection of blues music. Of course, being in Chicago, he had a lot of access to a lot of stuff that, of course, we never heard in Memphis and so forth. It never really most of it didn't reach the record shop that I worked in. But.

Steve Cropper (17:51)

You mentioned about Sam and Dave being their influence. That is something that really came about whenever they decided to put a band together and got Duck Dunn and myself involved in the group because they were from the show, you know, from the routine they did on the show. Their concept of an album at that point was strictly doing nothing but blues kind of songs and, you know, things with the Downchild Blues Band and, you know, Delbert McClintock stuff and all those kind of things. And I felt, you know, I'd been in the business a long time, and I felt if they wanted me to contribute anything to this, I thought they should go a little bit more commercial. And so it was my suggestion, along with Duck Dunn and all, that we do something like Soul man, and we later did who's Making Love? As well. But we talked them into doing that, and then they started asking about, well, how did Sam and Dave do? So we kind of started showing them some of the routines, like some of the dance things that Sam and Dave would do on stage. And they go, yeah, man, this could be fun. That's something that was sort of a new ingredient put in the Blues Brothers act. As we started making preparation to do.

David Biancolli (19:03)

A show, Steve Cropper spoke with Terry Gross in 1990. He died Wednesday at age 84. After a break, Kevin Whitehead will celebrate the 100th birthday of Jazz organist Jimmy Smith, even though the celebration may be a few years early. Also, we note the passing of playwright Tom Stoppard, who died last week at age 88. And critic at large John Powers reviews the new Brazilian film the Secret Agent. I'm David Biancooli, and this is FRESH air.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (19:51)

When the day comes and you are down and I'm in trouble and I'm about to surround the. Hold on, I'm coming. Oh, no, I'm coming I'm on my way with your cover.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (20:14)

If you get cold yeah, I will be your cover don't have to worry cause I'm here no need.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (20:46)

Reach out to me.

NPR Announcer (21:05)

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NPR Announcer (21:49)

Hey.

Brittany Luce (21:50)

Hey, it's Brittany Luce from It's been a minute. Your voicemail box is full. Okay, I'll admit it. So is mine. So I'm leaving this for you here. I wanted to say thank you for supporting NPR this year and if you haven't given yet, it's not too late. Give me a call back when you can visit donate npr.org it's been a great year for TV, movies and music and we are highlighting the best of the best, including K Pop Demon Hunters, Sinners and Severants. We're talking about our favorite moments of the year, including some of the best pop culture you might have missed. Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

David Biancolli (22:30)

Reference books Give the birth date of the great jazz organist Jimmy Smith as December 8, 1925100 years ago. More recent sources cite 1928 as Smith's birth year. Our jazz historian Kevin Whitehead says at this point, the latter date looks more plausible. That'd make Monday Jimmy Smith's 97th birthday, not his hundredth. But just to be on the safe side, Kevin Whitehead offers this tribute.

Kevin Whitehead (23:31)

Organist Jimmy Smith and crisp, bluesy cooking default mode on 1960 64's the Cat. In the 60s, Smith and Big bands often squared off as evenly matched sparring partners. In the 1950s, Smith had reinvented jazz organ, becoming the most imitated organist since Bach. An early inspiration was Wild Bill Davis, who played a blurrier version of the big band style Shout choruses Smith would later tighten up. Here's wild bill in 1950.

Kevin Whitehead (24:19)

Wild Bill Davis Jimmy Smith could sound much like that early on, when he first switched over to organ from piano. But from his first sessions as leader in 1956, his mature concept was there the three piece band with guitar, the deep bluesiness and swing feel, the earthy licks and heavy complications, and the clean and dirty colors he draw from the Hammond B3 organ's tone controls. And while his hands kept busy with all that, his left foot tapped out bass lines on a pedal board as his right foot controlled the volume.

John Powers (25:00)

It.

Kevin Whitehead (25:33)

Jimmy Smith on you getcha. His 1956 Blue Note sides were an instant sensation. In no time, his base camp, Philadelphia, was rife with new style organ players like Shirley Scott, Charles Erland, Groove Holmes and Jimmy McGriff. Smith taught a few of them, including Joey DeFrancesco later. Soon there were organ rooms everywhere. Setting the style one more way, Jimmy Smith manipulated the foot pedals and tone controls to give each note a percussive attack, in effect making organ a percussion instrument. He drum on a single key or two to make the point.

Kevin Whitehead (26:19)

An electric organ keyboard has easier action than piano, so Smith could really get around. But that percussive attack made hitting the keys sound like work, making his fastest playing seem even more superhuman. Jimmy Smith's insane 1957 variations on body and Soul look ahead a decade to Sun Ra's interstellar organ solos.

Kevin Whitehead (27:13)

Jimmy Smith might pepper his LPs with bewhiskered oldies like yes, sir, that's My Baby and Swanee. But in the 1960s, like other jazz stars, he hoped to connect with younger rock record buyers. Smith was better positioned to cross over than most, with electric guitar and drums for a band and plenty of boogieing momentum on his own electric axe. You can bet rock organists checked him out.

Kevin Whitehead (28:02)

Jimmy Smith on Oliver Nelson's 1966 version of Peter and the Wolf, one of a few good albums the arranger and organist made together, one with Wes Montgomery on guitar. In search of radio gold, Jimmy Smith stepped out as a singer on a 1968 session. Jazzers aiming for youth dollars didn't always hit the mark, but his playing was still on the money.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (28:23)

Yeah, keep in step and keep your eyes on me now shuffle your feet and keep your body free Here's a freedom dance for one and all Here's a freedom dance Whether you're short or toe It's a freedom upstairs let's have a bowl of freedom Freak out and free for all.

Kevin Whitehead (29:05)

Then portable keyboard synthesizers came along, and groovy Hammond B3 organs suddenly sounded old hat. From the 1970s on, jazz organ groups would go out of and come back into fashion. And Jimmy Smith's career had its corresponding downs and ups. He'd spawn so many admirers it could be hard to hear him with fresh ears. But Jimmy Smith always delivered the goods, even as the beats behind him changed. And he always displayed what I think of as outlandish good taste. The history of his instrument is neatly split. There's jazz organ before Jimmy Smith arrived, and jazz organ after. Simple as that.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (29:55)

Sam Kevin Whitehead is the author of.

David Biancolli (30:24)

New Dutch Swing why Jazz? And Play the Way youy Feel. Coming up, we remember the celebrated playwright Tom Stoppard. This is FRESH AIR.

Brittany Luce (30:36)

This week on Up First, NPR's morning news podcast as we learn more about the Trump administration's deadly strikes against alleged drug boats. Senators from both parties have questions. Will they get answers? We'll keep you updated. And we're following the latest efforts by the president to broker a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine. Listen to up first for what you need to know to start your day.

Terry Gross (30:59)

On the next through line from npr.

NPR Announcer (31:02)

The mother of Thanksgiving.

John Powers (31:04)

If every state should join in Union Thanksgiving on the 24th of this month, would it not be a renewed pledge.

NPR Announcer (31:11)

Of love and loyalty to the Constitution.

John Powers (31:14)

Of the United States?

NPR Announcer (31:17)

Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (31:23)

Fall in love with new music every.

Steve Cropper (31:25)

Friday at All songs considered. That's NPR's music recommendation podcast Fridays are where we spend our whole show, sharing all the greatest new releases of the week.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (31:35)

Make the hunt for new music a.

Steve Cropper (31:36)

Part of your life again. Tap into New Music Friday from All Songs Considered, available wherever you get your podcasts.

David Biancolli (31:44)

One of Britain's most celebrated playwrights, Tom Stoppard, died last week at the age of 88. Condolences and tributes came from King Charles III, Mick Jagger and the National Theater in Britain, where many of his plays were first staged. The theater released a statement saying that Stoppard's plays, quote, with their blend of intellectual curiosity, wit and narrative experimentation, have made a lasting impact on the National Theatre and on British theater. His bold storytelling encouraged audiences to reflect on history, philosophy and the human experience.

David Biancolli (32:22)

Stoppard's best known plays include the Real Thing, Arcadia, the Coast of Utopia and Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead. He wrote screenplays for the movies Shakespeare in Love, the Human Factor, the Russia House, Billy Bathgate and Empire of the Sun. He was knighted in 2007. Terry Gross spoke with Tom Stoppard in 1991 when the movie adaptation was released of his play. Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead. Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are minor characters in Shakespeare's Hamlet. They're Hamlet's old friends who unknowingly become part of a plot to have Hamlet killed, but Hamlet has them executed instead. Rosencrantz and Guildenstern never understand the larger story. They are part of this predicament so typical of minor characters is the subject of Stoppard's absurdist comedy. The play first opened at London's National Theatre in 1967 and soon after had success on Broadway. Terry asked Stoppard why he wrote a story about minor characters in Hamlet.

Tom Stoppard (33:29)

The first thing I liked about them is that there were two of them. And the double act, you know, has a long and honorable comic tradition. And I can see why, because they're fun to write. And these two people, not Shakespeare's version of them, but mine, I turn them into the kind of double act which everybody is familiar with. There's usually one who's a little brighter and quite often angry with the other one who's a bit dim but sweet and so on.

Terry Gross (34:01)

Laurel and Hardy, Abbot Costello.

Tom Stoppard (34:03)

A little like that, yes. And the other thing about them was that in the story which they've been dropped into, they have this sort of very strange predicament. When you look at Shakespeare's text, they're not really told what's happening in that play. And furthermore, when they end up dead.

Tom Stoppard (34:22)

They don't know why, they don't know what they've done. In fact, they haven't done anything. So they're well meaning. And they're often presented as villains, spies on the side of the bad King Claudius. But in point of fact, there's no reason to look at them like that now. I found them rather endearing.

Terry Gross (34:44)

Well, you use a lot of wordplay in your work and as a matter of fact, let me play a clip here of a scene in which Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are playing like word game tennis.

Tom Stoppard (34:56)

Oh, yes.

Terry Gross (34:57)

You want to explain the way the game works?

Tom Stoppard (35:00)

The idea is that it's two people who have to avoid answering questions. They have to answer a question with a question. And the first time somebody forgets or breaks one of the rules, then he loses a point.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (35:15)

What's the matter with you today?

David Biancolli (35:17)

When?

Steve Cropper (35:18)

What are you deaf?

John Powers (35:19)

Am I dead?

Otis Redding (singing voice) (35:20)

Yes or no? Is there a choice? Is there a God Foul? No non sequiturs.

Tom Stoppard (35:24)

3, 2, 1.

Steve Cropper (35:25)

Game all.

Tom Stoppard (35:26)

What's your name?

Steve Cropper (35:26)

What's yours?

Otis Redding (singing voice) (35:27)

You first statement. One.

David Biancolli (35:29)

Love.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (35:31)

What's your name? When you're at home? What's yours?

David Biancolli (35:33)

When I'm at home.

Steve Cropper (35:34)

Is it different at home?

Tom Stoppard (35:35)

What home?

Steve Cropper (35:36)

Haven't you got one?

Otis Redding (singing voice) (35:37)

Why do you ask?

John Powers (35:38)

What are you driving at?

Otis Redding (singing voice) (35:39)

What's your name? Repetition.

Tom Stoppard (35:40)

2.

John Powers (35:41)

Love.

Otis Redding (singing voice) (35:41)

Match point. Who do you think you are? Rhetoric. Game and match.

Terry Gross (35:47)

Do you think of yourself as having played word Games in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. As elaborate as the games Rosencrantz and Guildenstern play with each other.

Tom Stoppard (35:57)

What's happening is that they're these two people who are stuck there waiting for the next event to discuss and talk about between Shakespeare's scenes. They don't really have any purpose or role, and they pass the time in different ways. They discuss things, they speculate. And occasionally they get into some kind of game. Words is all they have available. They don't. They don't have TV or whatever. They're just there with themselves. So in some strange way, the predicament of the. Of the writer is the same as the predicament of the characters. Because in writing the play, I was in exactly that situation that they had a scene between scenes. And there was no plot that they were aware of. So they had to pass the time. And I had to invent ways to help them to pass the time. So we all three of us, Rosenkrantz and Guldenstern and I, were.

Tom Stoppard (37:01)

We were in the same situation.

Terry Gross (37:04)

Now, one of the themes of your work is the difference between art and life, kind of comparing art and life. And both you and Shakespeare have used plays within plays. Do you think that's a good device for exploring the difference between art and life? Because, like, the framing, play becomes reality, even though it's really theater, too.

Tom Stoppard (37:20)

Yes, it's something. I don't know why, but there's something about that which clearly appeals to me because I've used it more than once, more than twice. There's something about writing about the relationship between one work of art inside or up against another known play by somebody else. There's something which makes sparks for me. And it got to a point a few years ago where I had to stop myself from doing another one of those. It was becoming a kind of mannerism. But anyway, in my case, I'm always writing about the ostensible subject matter, not the supposed subtext. And I'm constantly coming up against students, for example, who believe that I've written the play in a sort of attempt to disguise what I'm really writing about.

Tom Stoppard (38:19)

And I know what they mean, because perhaps on some level you're doing that. But it's not. Honestly, it's not really the way that writers think, I don't believe.

Terry Gross (38:30)

Let's get into your background a little. You were born in Czechoslovakia and your family fled because of the Nazis.

Tom Stoppard (38:37)

Yes. I mean, in the sort of general phrase. The gathering war. You know.

Tom Stoppard (38:43)

A lot of people left what Looked like what looked as though it might turn into a theater of war. And we went to Singapore, which was ironic because we got there in time for Pearl harbor and the Japanese invasion. And we got. Women and children went on boats. My mother tells me that our boat was supposed to go to Australia, but for some reason or other, while we were out at sea, it turned around and went to India, and that's how I ended up there.

Terry Gross (39:12)

So women and children were given the passage on the boats and the men stayed behind. So your father stayed behind.

Tom Stoppard (39:18)

That's right. And he died in Singapore. And after the war, when we were in India, my mother remarried an Englishman whose name I now have.

Terry Gross (39:27)

Stoppard.

Tom Stoppard (39:28)

Exactly.

Terry Gross (39:29)

Do you have a lot of memories of being frightened a lot when you were. When you were a child and your family was fleeing Czechoslovakia and then Singapore?

Tom Stoppard (39:38)

I remember. I think I remember being driven to the boat in Singapore and I had a sense that there was some kind of air raid. And I certainly remember a Japanese zero.

Tom Stoppard (39:50)

Airplane with its nose in the ground, just sort of where it had crashed. I remember being in the air raid shelters. Everybody in my generation remembers the smell of sandbags.

Tom Stoppard (40:03)

But in India.

Tom Stoppard (40:06)

I'm afraid that protected by the innocence of childhood, I never felt unhappy or worried or nervous. I mean, obviously I must have done sometimes, but in a general way, I look on India as being a lost domain of childhood happiness.

Terry Gross (40:26)

When you were writing the screen adaptation for Empire of the sun, did you identify with the story at all? You know, because you were in Singapore during wartime and you and your parents got away on the ship.

Tom Stoppard (40:39)

Yeah. When I was asked to write that screenplay, they didn't know that my own childhood wasn't that different from young Jim's. Was it called Jim? Yes.

Tom Stoppard (40:51)

But.

Tom Stoppard (40:54)

He was in Shanghai. But. But when I. When I visited the location and saw the little boy's bedroom, it gave me a really spooky feeling because the designers who must have researched it very thoroughly, they. They gave him books and things stuck on the walls which triggered off memories of my own. I mean, they were my books. And over his bed was a thing.

Tom Stoppard (41:23)

Thing called Flags of All Nations, a sort of.

Tom Stoppard (41:27)

Map, a chart of different flags. And I remembered suddenly having this absolutely the same chart, flags of all nations, in my bedroom. So it was really time trip. But as for writing the story, well, listen, I didn't get put in a prisoner of war camp and I wasn't chased around by Japanese soldiers. No.

Terry Gross (41:49)

I want to thank you very much for talking with us.

Tom Stoppard (41:51)

Oh, I enjoyed it. Thank you very much.

David Biancolli (41:53)

Tom Stoppard speaking with Terry Gross in 1991. The celebrated playwright died last week at age 88. Coming up, John Powers reviews the new Brazilian film the Secret Agent. This is FRESH air.

Kevin Whitehead (42:09)

On Wait, Wait, don't tell me. Famous actors remember their days of obscurity, like when Pedro Pascal remembered the stress of being a waiter, the logistical labor.

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Of meeting everyone's needs in the right manner. You know, the act one, the water, act two, the drink.

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Listen to Wait Wait. In the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Brittany Luce (42:34)

So I just want to check in really quick. Are you okay or are you suffering from sleep deprivation, a stack of bills or political propaganda? If so, you may be stuck in the parent trap. On the It's Been a Minute podcast. We're diving headfirst into the anxieties of modern parenting and how that trickles out to all of us. Even if you don't have children, come find some relief. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.

David Biancolli (43:08)

The new Brazilian film the Secret Agent is set during that country's dictatorship, which ran from 1964 to 1985. It stars Wagner Mora as an honorable scientist who becomes a target of powerful forces. The movie, which was directed by Kleber Mendoncia Filho, won two big prizes at Cannes and is Brazil's submission for this year's Academy Awards. Our critic at large, John Powers, says it's even better than I'm Still Here, the Brazilian movie that won an Oscar earlier this year.

John Powers (43:40)

If you spent any time in a dictatorship, I've had that happy experience. You understand why your high school teachers were always praising democracy. You quickly learn that authoritarian states are all about violence, inescapable corruption and a sense of free floating anxiety.

John Powers (43:59)

You get a masterful portrait of what that's like in the Secret Agent, an unsettling yet very enjoyable new movie by Brazil's leading filmmaker, Kleber Mendon so figlio. Set in 1977, near the middle of his country's two decade dictatorship, this smart, brutal, often funny thriller uses the travails of one ordinary man to capture a reactionary era in its daily realities and surreal absurdities, its public cruelty and private decency. The superb Brazilian actor Wagner Mora, who became famous here on Narcos, stars as a research scientist called Marcelo, an innocent man on the lam. For reasons we only learn later, he heads to Recife, a coastal city in northern Brazil, to pick up his young son from his late wife's parents and then flee the country Together he takes refuge with Dona Sebastiana, a deliciously free spoken septuagenarian who's at once a real pistol and something of a saint. Her apartment house is a secret sanctuary for people in various types of trouble. As Marcelo makes his escape plans, we also follow the bad guys, a couple of hitmen from down south and Recife's gleefully crooked chief of police, who's a blast to watch even though he's a monster. We keep waiting for and fearing the moment these villains find Marcello. Adding to the craziness, Recife is right in the middle of Carnival and a bout of public hysteria about a man's severed hairy leg that has supposedly come back to life and is attacking the local citizenry.

John Powers (45:47)

Now, Mendoza began as a critic and his tastes run from art movies to shoot em ups. Even as he honors the thriller genre by slowly building suspense. He tells his story with an auteur's freedom and looseness, leaping around in time and often stepping away from the plot to show us the interesting textures of Brazilian life. A gay cruising area, a local movie theater, a murdered body that's been lying outside a gas station for days. Mendonza is a loyal son of Recife, and his first major film, 2012's Neighboring Sounds, used his own residential block as a metaphor for 21st century Brazil. Here he goes back in time to bring alive the city's swirling history, from its cafes and apartments to its dingy alleyways and spectacular vistas. No movie this year has such a warmly detailed and loving sense of place. Mendonza's Recife is a vibrant, racially mixed place where good and bad live side by side. In the movie, its carnival is an eruption of samba and alcohol and joy that also newspaper headlines tell us, leaves 91 people dead. Like a political thriller from the Hollywood 70s, the Secret Agent presents us with an X ray of society from its highest reaches to its darkest corners. It's hard to imagine a richer cast of characters, each individualized and respectfully given their humanity, be it the hitman who bristles at his employer's offhand racism, the Jewish tailor scarred with World War II bullet holes, the smug tycoon getting rich off the dictatorship, the secretary who has the hots for Marcelo, or Marcelo's late wife who appears in only one scene, but she and that scene are lacerating. Stitching it all together is Maura, whose shape shifting performance is a triumph of watchful subtlety, so quietly warm and sympathetic that we're with him the whole way. There may be no better piece of screen acting this year than the one in which Marcello first meets his fellow residents at Dona Sebastiana's. Mora's amused, melancholy gaze takes in each of them in a precise, generous way that makes you realize the kind of big soul he actually has.

John Powers (48:12)

The Secret Agent makes clever use of the movie Jaws, which Marcello's son wants to see, even though the poster gives him nightmares. In a way, Mendonza's movie works like Spielberg's. We keep wondering with mounting dread if and when Marcelo will get caught. But here, of course, the danger comes not from a real shark but from a political one, a military junta where the rich and powerful feel entitled to crush anyone who merely offends them. At one point, eluding his pursuers, Marcelo steps onto a street filled with carnival goers ecstatically partying. He has a drink and briefly joins in the dancing, and we realize how happy his world could be if only those in power weren't trying to kill him.

David Biancolli (49:02)

John Powers reviewed the new movie the Secret Agent, now playing in New York and la. It's scheduled to roll out soon nationwide. On Monday's show, Homelessness in America. Patrick Markey spent two decades walking through New York City's tunnels, armories and intake centers where families sleep on floors. His new book, Placeless, asks what if homelessness isn't a personal failing but a political choice? And what if the solution is simpler than we think? I hope you can join us.

David Biancolli (49:37)

To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram @NPRFreshAir. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel@YouTube.com thisisfreshair. We're rolling out new videos with in studio guests, behind the scenes shorts and iconic interviews from the archive. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shurrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hurdle and Deanna Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nikundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper Hope Wilson is our consulting visual producer for Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley. I'm David Biancooley.

Steve Cropper (50:37)

Wildcard is where big name interviews feel.

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Otis Redding (singing voice) (50:45)

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Say goodbye the right way, McConaughey, she told me. I don't think you're Princeton material. I'm nothing if not open, I guess.

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NPR Announcer (51:01)

Wolf researcher Jeff Reed built special recorders to try to understand what the wolves of Yellowstone park are saying to each other.

Tom Stoppard (51:11)

When you first start hearing these chorus.

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Howls, they kind of sound like a.

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Cocktail party in the wild.

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