Richard Kind Is Glad He’s Not Super Famous

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fresh Air – “Richard Kind Is Glad He’s Not Super Famous”

Host: Terry Gross (NPR)
Guest: Richard Kind
Date: December 31, 2025
Theme: The unique pleasures and pitfalls of a character actor’s life, Richard Kind’s career, relationship to fame, working with legends like Stephen Sondheim and the Coen brothers, and reflections on heritage, confidence, and humility.

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Episode Overview

Terry Gross sits down with Richard Kind, a prolific character actor renowned for his distinctive voice and memorable supporting roles in film, TV, and theater. Often "everywhere at once," Kind discusses the journey of building a career based on versatility and longevity, not celebrity, his friendships with more famous peers, formative theatrical work (including time as a singing waiter), and deep personal and professional insights on the craft of acting. The interview is peppered with humorous anecdotes and heartfelt reflections, highlighting Kind's humility, gratitude, and comic timing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The Joy and Strategy of Not Being “Super Famous”

Timestamp: 04:00 – 08:20, 09:32 – 11:44

• Difference from Hollywood A-listers:

  • Kind contrasts his career and life with that of longtime friend George Clooney and the late Matthew Perry.
  • “I get to walk down the streets of New York and get to where I’m going. … I pass 250 people who don’t know who I am.” (07:30)
  • “It’s what everybody dreams of. And they don’t realize that they’re dreaming of prison. And it’s prison. He doesn’t have a life.” (07:00, on Matthew Perry’s post-Friends fame)

• “Medium Time” Philosophy (from ‘Girls5eva’ parody clip):

  • “I’ve spent the past 40 years striking the perfect balance between constantly working and never getting bugged in a deli… What you want is the medium time. Never above number five on the call sheet of life. That’s happiness.” (09:43)

• Humility and Imposter Syndrome:

  • “Every single day I’m waiting for the world to say, I’m not that talented. … I may not always be great anymore, but I think I’m good enough to never stink.” (11:47, sharing a friend’s advice)

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2. Origins, Inspirations, and Early Career

Timestamp: 04:03 – 06:04, 21:04 – 24:10

• Early Ambitions:

  • “A kid lies in bed and dreams… I wanted to be a movie star. I wanted to be up… on the big screen.” (04:04)
  • Broadway inspirations: “My grandparents used to take me to Broadway… That’s who I wanted to be—Zero Mostel and Robert Preston.” (05:08)

• Teachers, Detours, and Family:

  • High school and college teachers told him he wouldn’t break through until he was older, and suggested he’d be “busy” as a producer or should consider his father’s jewelry business.
  • Kind describes his path as one defined by “saying yes to whatever was presented,” rather than a rigid plan. (22:12)

• Singing Waiter Memories:

  • “Listen, Terry, I sing, but I’m not a singer… but I can. I’m very loud. I’m from the Ethel Merman School of Music.” (20:01)
  • Humorous botched performance of “There Is Nothing Like a Dame” for Theodore Bikel. (18:47 – 19:58)

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3. Working with Legends – Onstage and Onscreen

Stephen Sondheim / “Bounce”: 12:50 – 18:19 Coen Brothers / “A Serious Man”: 26:30 – 30:02

• Stephen Sondheim:

  • “He loved actors. He would always check in—are you having fun? Does this sound like he wrote for the actor and yet was so specific. If I put a ‘the’ instead of an ‘an’ in the lyric, he would correct me.” (15:12)
  • On quitting smoking for Sondheim: “Oh, you quit smoking to sing Sondheim. You have to… You can’t take a pause in the middle of one of his words or one of his sentences. He writes for actors.” (17:18)

• Coen Brothers:

  • “I had a teacher who said every answer you need is in the script. Just read the script… I thought I was talking about this guy named Arthur Gopnik and these were his circumstances… you play pretend.” (27:24)
  • On the specificity of direction: “Sometimes Joel would take a physical position that sort of told me everything… I love them. You’re always at the height of your game.” (28:19)

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4. Reflections on Heritage, Faith, and Character

Timestamp: 31:36 – 34:55

• Ancestry and Faith:
  • Learns via “Finding Your Roots” that ancestors were religious leaders.
  • “I don’t believe in a Jewish God. I believe in God. … What I do believe is in my ancestors, and I believe that Judaism, that form of foundation, must survive because these people gave their lives and… believed.” (32:24)
  • Observes High Holidays as a tribute to the family and heritage: “I do go to Rosh Hashanah and I do go to Yom Kippur… part of it’s karma… and it’s also the acknowledgement of my parents, my grandparents, and all those heritage.” (33:28 – 34:55)

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5. On Ego, Confidence, and the Actor’s Drive

Timestamp: 35:05 – 37:25

• Ego vs Confidence:

  • “It’s unnatural for a man to get up on a stage in front of people… And yet with—that look at me, comes a fear of what I said earlier: I’m a fraud. Am I good enough?” (35:05)
  • “I need affirmation all the time… I’m an empty urn. There’s no bottom to the urn of love that I need.” (36:28)

• A Toast from Craig Bierko:

  • “The astronauts were up in space and they saw two things. The Great Wall of China and every acting choice Richard Kind ever made.” (37:11)

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6. Comic Timing, Storytelling, & Joke-Telling

Timestamp: 37:25 – 38:11

• On Telling Jokes:
  • “Nobody tells a joke better than I do.” (37:31)
  • Proceeds to share a classic “spanking” joke with perfect comic delivery. (37:35 – 38:03)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Never chase the big time. The big time is bad news… But you want is the medium time. Never above number five on the call sheet of life. That’s happiness.” — Richard Kind, parody in ‘Girls5eva’ clip, (09:43)
• “It’s what everybody dreams of. And they don’t realize that they’re dreaming of prison… I get to walk down the streets of New York… I like to keep walking now. When I was a kid, I wanted to be stopped by everybody. Now I have a life.” — Richard Kind (07:00)
• “You want to welcome me with open arms, you’ll also have to welcome me with open legs.” — Gene Simmons (from Kind’s character, also real-life interview, 01:59, 02:46)
• “I have a huge ego with no confidence.” — Richard Kind (35:05)
• “Every single day I’m waiting for the world to say, I’m not that talented.” — Richard Kind (11:47)
• “I may not always be great anymore, but I think I’m good enough to never stink.” — Advice from a friend, quoted by Kind (11:47)
• “The astronauts were up in space and they saw two things. The Great Wall of China and every acting choice Richard Kind ever made.” — Craig Bierko, quoted by Kind (37:11)

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Suggested Key Timestamps

• [04:00] — Discussion of what it means not to be super famous; anecdotes about George Clooney and Matthew Perry
• [09:43] — “Medium time” philosophy, from ‘Girls5eva’ parody
• [12:50] — Working with Stephen Sondheim
• [26:30] — Experience making “A Serious Man” with the Coen Brothers
• [31:36] — Reflections on faith and family history
• [35:05] — Discussion of ego, confidence, and the actor’s motivation
• [37:35] — Joke-telling, closing with a classic Kind punchline

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Conclusion

This conversation puts a spotlight on what it means to “make it” in show business—Richard Kind’s brand of success is marked by gratitude, longevity, humility, and a love for the craft itself, not for the trappings of stardom. The episode mixes laughter with wisdom, illustrating why Kind is treasured in every ensemble, why he endures, and why his story resonates so strongly both with everyday listeners and aspiring actors.

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For fans of acting, comedy, and anyone who’s wondered about the difference between being well-known and being truly, happily fulfilled, this episode offers riches well beyond the usual celebrity interview fare.

Transcript

[Terry Gross]

This message comes from Carvana, who makes car selling easy. Enter your license plate or vin, get a real offer in minutes and have your car picked up from your door. Sell your car the easy way with Carvana. Pickup fee may apply. This is FRESH air. I'm Terry Gross. Happy New Year's Eve. Today we continue our retrospective featuring some of our favorite interviews from 2025. Though he's not often cast in leading roles, you'd likely recognize Richard Kind and his distinctive voice from his appearances in hundreds of movies and T shows. Last month, he was celebrated at the New York Comedy Festival benefit appropriately titled Richard Kind Everywhere all at Once. In the series Only Murders in the Building, he was the neighbor Vince Fish, AKA Stink Eye Joe with the highly contagious Case of Pink Eye. He played Larry David's cousin in Curb youb Enthusiasm, co starred in Mad about yout, was in the Michael J. Fox show Spin City, and earlier in his career was a cast member of the Carol Burnett Show Carroll & Company. In the Coen Brothers film A Serious man, he was the deeply troubled brother. His youthful ambition was to be in a Stephen Sondheim musical. He's been in two he starred in a production of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum at the Stephen Sondheim center for the Performing Arts. And in the musical Bounce, he originated the role of Addison Meisner and got to work with Sondheim. I interviewed Richard Kind in April. We began our conversation talking about his current role at the time on the Netflix series Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. Kyne was the announcer on the show and also Mulaney's sidekick. Let's start with a clip from an episode of Everybody's Live. John Mulaney explains that Kind got hit on the head with a Kiss album, which left him with a traumatic brain injury. And now Kind thinks he is Gene Simmons. He's dressed like Simmons, has hair like Simmons and talks like him, too. After he says something vulgar to Mulany, Mulany starts to apologize to the.

[Richard Kind]

Audience. Okay, so normally I'd apologize for such a crack comment. Gentlemen, I crave ideas. And when an idea hits me, it grips me and it tortures me until I master it. Jeez. Listen, Gene, I know you think you're Gene Simmons, man, but Richard, if you're in there somewhere, please just give me a sign. I didn't expect you to greet me with open arms, but I did expect open legs. All.

[Terry Gross]

Right, Richard Kine, welcome to FRESH air. I have to ask you because this question is as much about me as it is about.

[Richard Kind]

You.

[Terry Gross]

Yes. So when I interviewed Gene Simmons many years ago, he said to me, if you want to welcome me with open arms, you'll also have to welcome me with open.

[Richard Kind]

Legs. I don't know anything about Gene Simmons. My reference about Gene Simmons is kiss. Seeing him with makeup. And then John sent me the very contentious interview you had with him. So I said, oh, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to be that contentious. Very, very. I don't want to say stoic, but he was not even somber, but he was still. And he just talks these awful things. He was awful to you. He was terrible. And.

[Terry Gross]

You. I got a lot of mileage out of that.

[Richard Kind]

Though. Did you? Okay, well, a lot of times.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Got a lot of.

[Richard Kind]

Attention. Oh, good.

[Terry Gross]

Good. Yeah. Insulting me was actually doing me a favor.

[Richard Kind]

Evidently. Don't expect it from me. I'm not that kind.

[Terry Gross]

Of. Okay, okay. You're an actor and you've been in so many things, but you're not a big celebrity. Like, everybody's seen you in at least one thing. So many people know who you are, but you're not famous in the way that your good friend George Clooney is.

[Richard Kind]

Famous. That is.

[Terry Gross]

Correct. And you've said you like it that.

[Richard Kind]

Way. I didn't know I would like it that way. Because my brain, much less my career, has gone through different permutations over the years. When I was a kid, you know, a kid lies in bed and dreams of being center fielder for the Yankees. Or, you know, being an astronaut, being a rock star, I wanted to be a movie star. I wanted to be up, you know, on the big screen. The funny thing is, when I was angry at my parents, I wasn't going to write them a note that I'm running away. I was gonna make a film and show it in the theater. That's how I was gonna.

[Terry Gross]

Do. Tell them I'm running away from film. About.

[Richard Kind]

Them. Yeah. And go, I'll show you. I'm gonna go make it big. And you'll see. You'll see, you'll be sorry that you didn't let me go see that movie. And that's what I thought about. So, you know, it was. That's what it was. And I had a dream. My grandparents used to take me to Broadway. Cause they lived in New York. We lived near. We lived in Pennsylvania, in Bucks County. And so I would come where I was from. My joke is, you either went to the Spectrum to see the Rolling Stones or you went To Madison Square Garden. I went to Madison Square Garden. All my friends went to the Spectrum and still live in Philly. I went to New York. Cause that's what I knew. My grandparents showed me the city and I wanted to be Zero Mostel. Zero Mostel and Robert Preston. That's who I wanted to.

[Terry Gross]

Be. Oh, well, you got to be Zero.

[Richard Kind]

Mostel. I.

[Terry Gross]

Did. I've even had to be his role in two shows. And A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the.

[Richard Kind]

Floor. I did and I.

[Terry Gross]

Did. And the.

[Richard Kind]

Producers. Listen, your intro was really good because you pointed out things I'm very proud of. Okay. A lot of people just look at the IMDb page and you know, like. And give some little credit of a movie that I don't even remember doing. But I liked what you mentioned. You know, the thing is, when you look me up, you see a lot of the movies and TV shows. But like, I did an opera at New York City.

[Terry Gross]

Opera. But I want to get back to the fact that you're not a George Clooney level.

[Richard Kind]

Celebrity.

[Terry Gross]

Right. But everybody seems to know you. You know, a lot of celebrities, and you've seen things that you're grateful you don't have to go through. So what are some of the things that you've seen celebrity friends go through that you're grateful you don't have to deal.

[Richard Kind]

With? All right, I'll tell you a story. I knew Matt Perry when he was a kid and we.

[Terry Gross]

Would. This is Matthew Perry from Friends.

[Richard Kind]

Right? And yes, that Matt Perry. And we used to, you know, as a young kid, he would go to the Formosa. All of our friends, we would drink. If he could sit at a typewriter and type everything he wanted in his life, from a dog to what the house would look like, to what kind of car to what his girlfriend would look like, everything came true. And I saw that it doesn't bring happiness. And I thought it would. So anyway, I went to Vegas with Matt around two or three weeks after Friends premiered. It was September, October. He started at one side of the casino and went through and was looking both ways to see if he was recognized. And he just walked through the casino. The following January, we did the same thing. He took two steps into the casino, and that's as far as he went. And that was one of the saddest things. It's what everybody dreams of. And they don't realize that they're dreaming of prison. And it's prison. He doesn't have a life. I get to walk down the streets of New York and get to where I'm going. I will walk down the street and somebody will say, Mr. Kind, you've changed my life. You're wonderful. You're a treasure. Oh, my gosh, you're the best. We love you. My whole family loves you. And that's one person. And I pass 250 people who don't know who I am. So it's wonderful to get the accolades, and it's humbling to just keep walking. I like to keep walking now. When I was a kid, I wanted to be stopped by everybody. Now I have a.

[Terry Gross]

Life. I want to play a clip from the series Girls 5 Eva about a girl group that you really did your.

[Richard Kind]

Work. Yeah, that's a good.

[Terry Gross]

One. And this clip seems almost like a self parody. So the girl group that dawn, the Sara Bareilles character, is in, has a show at Radio City Music hall, but they're having trouble selling tickets. So she's running around the streets of Manhattan looking for a famous person for the show who could help, and she sees a film or a TV show is being shot and notices you at the crafts table. Here's the clip. Oh, oh, oh, wait, wait. You're somebody, right? Where do I know you.

[Richard Kind]

From? Everything. I got an IMDb page longer than a wizard's.

[Terry Gross]

Beard. You're Richard Kind. Oh, you're Bing Bong. Hey, what are you doing.

[Richard Kind]

Tomorrow?

[Terry Gross]

Why? My girl group booked Radio City because we're making our big comeback and we haven't sold any tickets because of a variety of.

[Richard Kind]

Reasons. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You got a list of problems longer than a wizard's feet. Man, I said that already. What else is.

[Terry Gross]

Long? CVS.

[Richard Kind]

Receipt. CVS receipt. That's funny. Pretend I said.

[Terry Gross]

That. Can you do something in our show? You can really use someone who can move the.

[Richard Kind]

Needle. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not a needle mover, and that's by design. I've spent the past 40 years striking the perfect balance between constantly working and never getting bugged in a deli. And another.

[Terry Gross]

Thing. Why would you say and another thing and then take a big.

[Richard Kind]

Bite? I mistimed it. You overshot. Never chase the big time. The big time is bad news. That's when the fighting starts. People get desperate, friends turn on each other, but you want is the medium time. Never above number five on the call sheet of life. That's happiness. Look at me. I work every day of my life doing what I love. Well, not today. Today I had a doctor's appointment. I'm fine. And then I Walk by here, I see the spread, I put some tissue in my collar, and I pretend like I'm working here. What is this, anyway? Euphoria. And I guess on this show, it doesn't matter. The important thing is I don't have time for.

[Terry Gross]

This. Zendaya Maude.

[Richard Kind]

Apatow. Oh, my gosh. That conversation was longer than a CBS receipt. That's funny. I just made that.

[Terry Gross]

Up. That's a great scene. I love that.

[Richard Kind]

Scene. It's a great.

[Terry Gross]

Scene. Was that supposed to be a parody of.

[Richard Kind]

You? Sure, and it was. And it's hilarious. And I'm mortified, you know, but it's hilarious. It is a parody. I say yes to a lot of things. I'm in so many things. You know, I'll go back to the question you asked because you addressed George, who is my dear friend. Remember, I came up in the business with him. And my joke was is that at the time that we worked together, I was the handsome one. And then our careers went a different way. So he can't go out. Like, I can go out. He can't even go to a bar the way that I can go to a bar. He is going to get. He's going to get bothered. You get tired of that and you realize, dare I say it, you don't deserve it. You're a little bit of a.

[Terry Gross]

Fraud. Is that how you feel? That you're a little bit of a.

[Richard Kind]

Fraud? Oh, every day I feel like a fraud. Every single day I'm waiting for the world to say, I'm not that talented. I don't have that. I'm not that good. Every day, I wake up like that. Every day. But a flip side of that. A friend of mine said, I may not always be great anymore, but I think I'm good enough to never stink. You know what I mean? I'm not gonna be bad. I'll be fine. There are parts that I hope I'm great in, and I always yearn not just to be great, but to be better than everybody else in a scene. I want to be great. But if you're playing tennis with a better tennis player, it's just not gonna happen. So there are some times when I say, you know what? You're not gonna win an Academy Award for this role. Just do it correctly. Don't try and stand out. Don't try and steal. Just do it. Just do the part. And that's a very different way to come to.

[Terry Gross]

Set. I want to talk with you about working with Stephen Sondheim and being like originating a role. Originating a Stephen Sondheim role. Wow. Unfortunately, it was a show that never quite caught on and went through several iterations and even several titles. So you were in Bounce as Addison Meisner, one of two brothers. Who was it? Boca Raton that they helped.

[Richard Kind]

Build.

[Terry Gross]

Mm. You originated a role. And before we talk about what it was like to work with Sondheim on a Sondheim musical, I want to play a song from it, and it's called get out of My Life. And I chose this because it's a good song, and you're really great in it. This song is, like, part singing and part, like, really acting. Thank you. Because you're angry with this, and it really shows you off. There's a song by Stephen Sondheim from his musical Bounce with my guest, Richard.

[Richard Kind]

Kind. Addie, I just want you to know that I appreciate get out of my life. Get the hell out of my life. Whatever this race we're in, okay? You win. It's done. And now that you've won, get out of my life. It used to be fun to watch you scheme and even be a part of it. At the start of it, it got to be fun to stand and beam at the suckers, But I learned that from you. I thought that we'd go from skiing to dream, but then I thought we were a team. Amen. No more. I've looked at the score. You owe me a life A life of my own I wanted to glide like you before I do Please leave me alone get out of my life so I can live it Just.

[Terry Gross]

Go.

[Richard Kind]

Away and what if.

[Terry Gross]

I. So that was my guest, Richard Kind, singing Get out of My Life from the original cast recording of the Stephen Sondheim musical Bounce. So you worked directly with Sondheim on this.

[Richard Kind]

Right? I did.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. What kind of direction did he give you about how to do his.

[Richard Kind]

Songs? He's a guy who always liked actors better than singers, but he loved when he heard his song sung beautifully. But during a show, he wanted it acted better. He loved actors. He would always check in. Are you having fun? Does this sound like he wrote for the actor and yet was so specific? If I put a the instead of an an in the lyric, he would correct me. Hanging on my wall in my house One of my most treasured things is just typed out lyrics, you know, maybe three, four lines in the song, and he would then cross it out and put it in pencil, because he famously wrote in pencil the changes, and he was diligent on every comma, every word. He really worked hard. I will say this. This is sort of funny. The first time I met him, I went up to him. It was at Hal's Christmas party, Hal Prince's Christmas party. I went up to him and I said, do you know who I am? I had a beard. And I go, do you know who I am? He said, yes, you're Richard Kind. And the beard goes. That was the first thing he said to him. Yeah. Also, one other thing, short thing is there's a thing called Zitsprobe, which is when the orchestra. You hear the orchestra play what you're going to hear for the rest of the run, you've been only accompanied by a piano. Now you've got an orchestra. So we're doing Zitsprobe and I go to the bathroom at the same time. He goes to the bathroom. I didn't harmonize a lot. There were a lot of just solos in the show. And I said, thank you so much for not writing harmonies. I can't do them. And he said, he can't do them either. He can write them, but he can't sing them either. His ear. He isn't good.

[Terry Gross]

Enough. What was it like? He was one of your heroes. You always wanted to be in one of his shows, and here he was directing you and kind of being very picky about every word and probably about every note as well. Sure. Did that make you self.

[Richard Kind]

Conscious? Yes, I was very scared. I was nervous the whole time. I was a smoker at the time. That's when I quit.

[Terry Gross]

Smoking. Oh, you quit smoking to sing Sondheim, you have.

[Richard Kind]

To. I had to do it. Well, I know what smoking can do. You have to have breath control. You know, you have to go to the end of the line. You can't take a pause in the middle of one of his words or one of his sentences. He writes for actors. That's what he does. His songs, although lyrical, are more actory. If you're doing a show, yes, Sending the Clowns as a solo piece is a lovely song, but in the show, it takes on a completely different. It's a completely different animal. And you have to be able to serve that. Actually, if you're in a sitcom, you can't take a breath in the middle of a line because in order to get the proper laugh, you have to take it to the end of the sentence. Otherwise the audience may hear where the joke is gonna go, or you can't surprise them. And there's a rhythm to a joke. You have to be able to control what that rhythm Is so smoking is your enemy. You have to have lung.

[Terry Gross]

Control. So we talked a little bit about working with Sondheim on one of his musicals. Earlier in your life, your music was being a singing waiter in a Manhattan restaurant. How did that work? And what was your restaurant repertoire? I'm thinking, speaking of Sondheim, that you have to sing, like, upbeat, ingratiating songs, and you can't sing a song from Sweeney Todd like, they all deserve to.

[Richard Kind]

Die. You don't. Look, I sang for me. I sang. My audition song was, hey there. I would sing that. I'd sing. The big song was There is Nothing Like a Dame. I got to sing that pretty well. One night. One night, Theodore Bickell was in the restaurant. I wanted to impress him so much so I wanted to sing There is Nothing like a Dame, which goes up to a high C, I think, or a G, let's say a G. It goes up to a high G, which was a note at the time that I could reach. So we had a replacement pianist that night. The guy who usually played it for me was not there. So he goes, what key do you sing it in? I go, I don't know. And he goes, well, maybe it's sing in C. And as I'm singing it, I'm going, this doesn't feel right. So that by the time I go single dam like that, and I hit the wrong note, damn, it was horrible. And the whole restaurant stopped. I did not impress Theodore Bickle. I ran back to the kitchen, and the chef, who was a lovely guy, he was French, he goes, oh, Richie, that did not sound good. It was.

[Terry Gross]

Hilarious. Were tips based on your.

[Richard Kind]

Singing? God, no. I'd starve. Listen, Terry, I sing, but I'm not a singer. And that I could do Sondheim. I can hit notes, but I can't harmonize. And I'm not a singer. People ask me to sing. It's like I'm an improviser, but I'm not a great improviser. I can improvise. There are great singers and there are great improvisers. I'm very good. It's just in my bag of tricks. So I can sing a song, but I'm not great. But I can. I'm very loud. I'm from the Ethel Merman School of Music, and that's what I.

[Terry Gross]

Do. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Kind. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh.

[Richard Kind]

Air. What if public radio stopped sounding like.

[Terry Gross]

This? Live from NPR News in Washington. I'm Nora.

[Richard Kind]

Ramm. And started sounding like this. NPR is doing everything possible to keep this trusted and free public service going with your support. We will not be silent. Please give [e-mail].

[Terry Gross]

Thanks. This message comes from MongoDB. You're a developer who wants to innovate. Instead you're stuck fixing bottlenecks and fighting legacy code. MongoDB can help. It's a flexible, unified platform that's built for developers by developers. MongoDB is acid compliant enterprise ready with the capabilities you need to ship AI apps fast. That's why so many of the Fortune 500 trust MongoDB with their most critical workloads. Ready to think outside rows and columns. Start [e-mail] build. You had a teacher, an acting teacher who said to you, you're not going to get the roles until you're in the.

[Richard Kind]

Actual. It's not what Hollywood.

[Terry Gross]

Wants. Yeah. So how discouraging was that when your own acting teacher said to you, you're not going to get the roles until your 30s? Did you see that as discouraging, like he's telling me, or wait, wait, wait. Or did you see it as encouraging with him saying, like, it's going to take some time, but you will get roles when you're in your 30s. You will do well in your.

[Richard Kind]

Career. No, I had.

[Terry Gross]

Two. Where did you interpret.

[Richard Kind]

It? You're talking about two teachers. Oh, my high school teacher. I went to school with a great actor named Robert Curtis Brown. You'd know him as the yuppie in Trading Places. Now he's had a career that's much larger, but whenever I mention his name, that's his most famous role. He was a great actor. He is a great actor and a handsome guy. So I had my high school teacher say, you know, go into your dad's business because Hollywood is looking for Robert. Okay? That's who they want. I acknowledge that. Then I went to college as a pre law so that I would take over my dad's store. Frank Alotti, a very well known Chicago theater maven at the Goodman at Steppenwolf and a teacher at Northwestern. So when I got his advice, he said, look, go be a producer. And so you get to be in show business but you're busy. I go, no, it's either I'm an actor or I'm a rich jeweler. And I said. He said, well, you're not going to get famous or get known until you're in your 30s, when you sort of grow into who you are. Did I believe him? Terry, I wish that I could say this is what I chose to do. All I did was say yes to whatever was presented. And my path was created by that. I didn't set out to join Second City. I went to someplace in Chicago, Practical Theater Company. They saw me and said, do you want to do Second City? I said, yeah, well, Second City taught me a lot. Four and a half years. All of that way station of waiting for roles and waiting for roles was spent on stage and getting paid and developing into the actor who I was in front of 400 people a night. I got lucky, I really.

[Terry Gross]

Did. Your father owned a jewelry store in.

[Richard Kind]

Princeton. Uh.

[Terry Gross]

Huh. And you sometimes work there and apparently there's a famous store. And I would presume you sold a lot of jewelry to men buying gifts for girlfriends and fiances and wives and mistresses. What was it like as a man selling to men who know nothing about women's jewelry but want to give something to the woman in their life who they love or they want to impress or they want to make up.

[Richard Kind]

With? Well, okay. My dad didn't trust me with the beautiful jewels or the expensive stuff. I sold lighters and sterling silver keychains and the pens and stuff like that. Maybe candelabras, but I didn't sell the expensive stuff. And I was no good. I was a good salesman. My dad was a great Salesman. I'd spend 45 minutes with some guy saying, oh, you see these pearls? You see how they're graduated? You see how this set of the strand, the pearls match each other best. And then my dad would come up after I'd been with the guy for 40 minutes, and he would come up, he goes, bill, Mary wants a strand of pearls. And he'd go, yeah. And he goes, richie, wrap these up. And he'd pick up the pearls and said. I would go. And that's what my dad did. I worked and I worked and I worked. Now there's a very funny story where I had a Dunhill lighter, okay? And I'm showing this woman various Dunhill lighters, which are beautiful lighters, and I pull one out and she says, I'll take this one. And I write down $25. And she says, no, excuse me, I think that's $250. I go, no, no, it's $25. And I show her and she goes, no, that says $250. And I look, I go, oh my God, $250 for a lighter. So that's the kind of salesman I was. Yeah, I was not great. I would be behind the repair desk. And a woman brought in two dome shaped earrings, like gold earrings. Okay. They were large. And she said one of them was all, you know, had dents and everything. And she goes, my dog got ahold of this and I'm wondering if we can match it. And I go, no, but if you bring the dog in, I can feed him the other one. And so that's the kind of. That's how I approached my.

[Terry Gross]

Work. So you had a significant role in a film I really love A Serious man that was made by the Coen brothers. And Michael Stuhlbark plays a man whose wife is leaving him. He might be losing his teaching job. A student is kind of blackmailing him. His whole life is falling apart. And he's also wrestling with the concept of God and with his Judaism. You play his brother, you're a gambler, you're broke, you have a sebaceous cyst that's become a big problem. You're in misery. And it's a kind of modern day version of the Book of Job. At least that's how I think of it. And I'm wondering if you thought of it that way and if you read or re read the Book of Job to do the role and if people talked about it on the.

[Richard Kind]

Set. Not at.

[Terry Gross]

All. I'm glad I.

[Richard Kind]

Asked. I had a teacher who said every answer you need is in the script. Just read the script. You don't have to do any research. Certainly the Book of Job wouldn't have done anything. I didn't think that was telling the Book of Job. I thought I was talking about this guy named Arthur Gopnik and these were his circumstances. And you play pretend if it meshes into what you think is the Book of Job and you interpret all of that, God bless you. But no, no, no, that's not what I did at all. I just played the scene, what are my circumstances? How do I feel? And you just play pretend. That's what it.

[Terry Gross]

Is. What was the Coen brothers approach to directing you from your point of view as an actor? What was it like to work with.

[Richard Kind]

Them? They're great. I love them. You're always at the height of your game. I was surprised at how word perfect they like their script, but they should because they're great writers. Sometimes Joel would take a physical position that sort of told me everything about what he wanted. In the scene, the scene where the police are at the door, he sat down in a chair and he leaned back And Joel is a long, lanky man and his face almost looked five inches longer than it is. And that's what I saw in when I leaned back in the chair, dare I say he almost looked like a horse when he was looking back. And that's what I saw. So I played pretend that I was a lovely man even though I am a poker player. You said a gambler. I think of myself as a card player, not as necessarily a gambler. And I don't know why, but when you said a gambler, I said, no, I'm not a gambler. I'm a poker player. And that's different. I'm a gamesman. I'm not a gambler. Does that make sense to.

[Terry Gross]

You?

[Richard Kind]

Absolutely.

[Terry Gross]

Okay. And then you had a skill. You.

[Richard Kind]

Weren'T. Yes, I had a skill. And they're not letting me play cards anymore. Why aren't they do. Why I can't even play cards anymore. And what a sad man. I'm a very simple man. As opposed to my brother, who's a serious man. I'm a simple man. That's what I saw. I'm even talking like him as I'm.

[Terry Gross]

Described. This.

[Richard Kind]

Is. I don't do that. So that's who the guy.

[Terry Gross]

Was. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Kind. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH.

[Richard Kind]

Air. AI Data centers use a lot of electricity and you may be paying for.

[Terry Gross]

It. I think it's almost inevitable that ordinary people are going to end up subsidizing the wealthiest industry in the.

[Richard Kind]

World. On the latest Planet Money podcast, how data centers might be hijacking your electric bill. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. What's in store for the music.

[Terry Gross]

TV and film industries for.

[Richard Kind]

2026? We don't know, but we're making some fun, bold predictions for the new year, plus setting some personal pop culture.

[Terry Gross]

Resolutions. Listen to pop culture Happy Hour in the NPR app or or wherever you get your.

[Richard Kind]

Podcasts on. Wait, wait, don't tell.

[Kevin Whitehead]

Me. Famous actors remember their days of obscurity, like when Pedro Pascal remembered the stress of being a waiter, the logistical.

[Richard Kind]

Labor of meeting everyone's needs in the right manner. Act one, the water. Act two, the.

[Kevin Whitehead]

Drink. Listen to Wait, Wait. In the NPR app or wherever you get your.

[Terry Gross]

Podcast. The movie A Serious man is also about, you know, like, struggling with your faith. Yes, because the Michael Stubar character has conversations with rabbis and he's kind of losing his faith because everything's going wrong in his.

[Richard Kind]

Life.

[Terry Gross]

Right. I know you were on finding your roots, and you found out that some of your ancestors were religious leaders in the Pale of Settlement. And the Pale of Settlement was during the Russian Empire. It was a large area of what we now call Eastern Europe that was basically the ghetto for Jews. Like Jews had to live within this expanse of land. And so, so many American Jews, their grandparents or ancestors lived in the Pale of Settlement. What did it do to your own faith or religious practice, if you had any? I know you're born Jewish. I have no idea how observant you are. But what did it do to your level of observance to find out about people on your family tree being religious.

[Richard Kind]

Leaders? I know what God is to me. I don't believe in a Jewish God. I believe in God. I believe there is a power and. And I believe that he encompasses all religions. I believe that religion is just something that we go to to make us feel better or to give us some sort of foundation. So because the world is so full of chaos and we can't really find ourselves, What I do believe is in my ancestors, and I believe that Judaism, that form of foundation, must survive because these people gave their lives and they sacrificed and they believed, and in the Jewish religion and in a state of Israel, and let them have a foundation that they believe in called Judaism. So it's very important that I know what my roots are and what my heritage is and to serve my.

[Terry Gross]

Heritage. Do you practice any. Do you observe the holidays and the Sabbath and all that? Like, how far do you.

[Richard Kind]

Go? No, I don't observe the Sabbath. What I do observe is the high holy days. Because that God, who I believe in and I live my life daily by, I hope, acting correctly to my fellow man, which is a form of prayer to me and a form of going to church or going to temple. Wow. I can't believe I just said going to church. I believe that is my way of serving God. I believe I'm a good person. And I try and do. I really do try and do unto others as I would myself. So I do go to Rosh Hashanah and I do go to Yom Kippur. And I am very observant about that. Part of it's karma. Part of it is, hey, don't tilt the boat. You know, don't rock the boat right now. Just keep going. And it's also the acknowledgement of my parents, my grandparents, and all those heritage. But I can't believe that my. Her genetics have just dissipated over the years, so that they started out as rabbis in the 1600s. And this is what we end up with. Me, Richard, kind, that's horrible. But I do try and study as much as I can and read and try and be up on news and be as responsible a citizen as I can to serve those rabbis who were there at the.

[Terry Gross]

Time. What you're saying reminds me of something that you've told another interviewer, which is you said, I have a huge ego with no confidence. You want to.

[Richard Kind]

Explain? Yeah. Being an actor, it's abnormal. It's an anomaly. It's unnatural for a man to get up on a stage in front of people. It's unnatural to. To be in front of a camera while 50 to 100 people are behind the camera and pretend that you're somebody else and just lay bare your emotions or pretend you're somebody else. It's unnatural. You know how people are scared of getting attention? And I'm waving my arms going, look at me, look at me, look at me. And yet with. With that look at me, look at me, look at me, comes a fear of what I said earlier. I'm a fraud. Am I good enough? I don't know whether or not what I'm doing. And I think any actor worth his salt would like to be better and give a better performance than what they gave. There's, oh, my gosh, did I do it correctly? Should I do it again? I need affirmation all the time. It's why I like live theater. Even if it's a drama, I can feel the audience listening to me, liking me. That's. And I'm an empty. I'm an empty urn. There's no bottom to the urn of love that I need. That is lack of confidence. And yet my ego says, go out and do it and do it and do it louder than everybody else. It's who I am. I'm oversized in my voice. I'm loud in my opinions. When I'm opinionated, I'm really loud. And even my acting. A funny line that my friend Craig Bierko said in a toast once, he goes, the astronauts were up in space and they saw two things. The Great Wall of China and every acting choice Richard Kind ever.

[Terry Gross]

Made. I love that line so.

[Richard Kind]

Much. It's so funny. It's so funny. Is it how I chose to live my life? No, I wouldn't choose it, but it's what I'm saddled.

[Terry Gross]

With. Do you tell jokes? I mean, you obviously have a great sense of humor, but do you tell joke jokes.

[Richard Kind]

Terry. Nobody tells a joke better than I.

[Terry Gross]

Do. Oh, great. Do you want to tell us one that you.

[Richard Kind]

Love? Sure. So this mother is making her teenage son's bed and she's tucking in the sheets and she reaches underneath and she pulls out a magazine of bondage of like handcuffs and whips. And she goes, oh, my God. So the husband comes home. She goes, honey, honey, honey, look what I found under Timmy's bed. He goes, oh, my God. She goes, what are we gonna do? He goes, well, we're certainly not gonna spank.

[Terry Gross]

Him. That's.

[Richard Kind]

Great. Oh, I got lots of them. Nobody tells a joke better than I.

[Terry Gross]

Do. Well, Richard Kine, thank you so much for talking with.

[Richard Kind]

Us. Oh, thank you, Terry. This was fun. I enjoyed it. You're great. You're.

[Terry Gross]

Great. My interview with Richard Kine was recorded in April while he was appearing in the Netflix series Everybody's Live with John Mulaney as Mulaney's sidekick. It's streaming on Netflix. After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will remember some of the jazz musicians we lost in 2025. This is FRESH.

[Kevin Whitehead]

AIR. As we say goodbye to 2025, our reporters are looking back at some of the most memorable international stories they covered in the last year. From a city in Africa emerging from war to resilient Indian turtles, liberated refugees to defiant Austrian nuns, Global favorites from the last year. Listen to State of the World on the NPR app or wherever you get your.

[Terry Gross]

Podcasts. This holiday season on the StoryCorps podcast, we're casting our eyes.

[Richard Kind]

North. We have checked and rechecked our tracking.

[Kevin Whitehead]

Screens. I hate to bring you and all your good listeners the bad news, but it doesn't.

[Richard Kind]

Appear. Just a minute. We have a.

[Terry Gross]

Sighting. Santa is the on hear tales of the fears, hopes and joys of Christmas past on a special holiday edition.

[Richard Kind]

Of the StoryCorps podcast from NPR. This message comes from Cook Unity. Stuck in a dinner rut? Let Cook Unity handle dinner with chef crafted meals delivered right to your door. Cookunity makes it easy with new menu drops, weekly recommendations and a growing community of award winning chefs. Plus, over 400 flavorful meals for every palate. Shake up your meal routine. Go to cookunity.com mealtime50 or enter code mealtime50 before checkout for 50% off your first.

[Terry Gross]

Week. Today, our jazz historian Kevin Whitehead looks back at seven jazz notables who died this year. He earlier paid tribute to bandleader Jack DeJohnette and to my late husband, the jazz critic Francis Davis. Kevin's rip list starts with singer Sheila Jordan, so she sent me to live with my grandparents near a small coal mining town, Pennsylvania State. Grew up with the coal miners, singing in the beer garden every Saturday night. We used to sit around and they'd drink and they'd sing their songs. You are my sunshine, my only sunshine, you make me happy. But rarely did they ever.

[Kevin Whitehead]

Fought Sheila Jordan, who grew up partly in western Pennsylvania, as she tells us on Sheila's Blues from 1984. Jordan, who died in 2025 at 96, started singing as a kid and never stopped building on Charlie Parker's bebop to find her own confident voice in all sorts of musical settings. She also taught and inspired countless other vocalists. When Sheila sang, you could hear the joy she found at jazz, which kept her eternally young. Other veteran singers who passed this year include Cleo Lane, Nancy King and Lillian Boutet. Also the buttery, smooth baritone Andy Bay, who lingered over slow ballads. But Andy Bay also had a way with rhythm tunes, like this 1970 Duke Pearson number when I look at.

[Richard Kind]

You, it thrills me through and through and I don't care who knows, maybe I'm.

[Kevin Whitehead]

Your. Musicians from the jazz rhythm section who died in 2025 include guitarist George Freeman, pianists Hal Galper, Mike Wofford and Mike Ratlidge, drummers Al Foster, Greg Bandy and Louis Maholo Maholo, tuba players Joe Daly and Jim Self and one of the great bass players of our time, whose appointment book was always full, Ray Drummond. Bass violin is a big instrument, and Drummond was a big man who handled it with effortless grace. Another influential teacher who passed this year was alto saxophonist Bunky Green, who taught in Jacksonville for a couple of decades after a long spell in Chicago. He didn't record so very much, and not always in ideal settings, though even his 70s funk records have their moments back then, his slippery phrasing and side slipping harmony pointed the way for future alto stars Steve Coleman, Greg Osby and Rudresh Mahantaba. Here's Bunky Green on Tension and release in 1979. Another, much better known horn player passed in 2025. Let's listen a bit, then I'll tell you who.

[Richard Kind]

It.

[Kevin Whitehead]

Is. The Jazz Messengers 1966 on Secret Love with trumpet hotshot Chuck Mangione. A few years later, Mangione would turn his attention to pop jazz, hitting it big in 1978 with feel so Good, a terminally mellow tune that set him up for life. Chuck Mangione was a good sport about his flugelhorn, cuddling public image spoofing himself on TV's King of the Hill. But give the man his due. His younger self could really play. Chuck Mangione. A few other players who worked at the edges of jazz passed in 2025, including vibraphonist Roy Ayers, accordionist Guy Klucevic, much missed pedal steel guitarist Susan Alcorn, Brazilian multi instrumentalist Hermeto Pasquale, and the great Bronx born Latin band leader Eddie Palmieri. As a pianist, Palmieri showed off some fresh moves within the Afro Cuban tradition, soloing on his D MA from 2005. Every time he slams out a chord, it's like he's switching channels to another rhythmic profile. It's a Montuno gone postmodern. Besides Eddie Palmieri, another formidable arranger for big bands, died this year. Pianist Jim McNeely, who played with New York's Vanguard Jazz Orchestra for years. He also wrote for several European radio bands who loved how good his sleekly handsome charts made them sound. Lets go out with a slice of Jim McNeely's sweet rituals, which rift on themes and rhythms from Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. McNeely looking forward and back as the jazz greats do. The stuff masters like these dreamed up is now part of the collective wisdom shared by all of us they leave.

[Richard Kind]

Behind.

[Terry Gross]

Sam. Kevin Whitehead is the author of New Dutch Swing why Jazz? And Play the Way youy Feel. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll continue our retrospective of some favorite interviews from 2025 with Jeff Hiller. This year he won an Emmy for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere as Joel, the main character's best friend who runs a secret nighttime cabaret at his church for his LGBTQ friends. Jeff Hiller originally felt called to be a pastor, but being gay was a pretty major obstacle. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram at nprfreshair. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with engineering today from Charlie Kyer. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews Reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Boldonato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Anna Bauman, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross. All of us at Fresh AIR wish you a happy, healthy and fulfilling new year. This holiday season on the StoryCorps podcast A Christmas memory from the Cold War I remember this red phone on his desk. If it rang, there was a national emergency. One time the red phone rang, he answered it and there was a small voice that asked, is this Santa.

[Richard Kind]

Claus? Cozy up under the tree and.

[Terry Gross]

Listen to a special holiday edition of.

[Richard Kind]

The StoryCorps podcast from NPR as you prepare for the ball drop on 2025. Listen to NPR Music's All Songs Considered podcast as we look back at the biggest songs and albums of the year, from the unmissable hits to the fascinating other stuff you might not have heard. Search for All Songs Considered wherever you get podcasts to hear us run back some of the best of the best of 2025. Making time for the news is important, but when you need a break, we've got you covered on All Songs Considered, NPR's music podcast. Think of it like a music discovery show, a well deserved escape with friends, and yeah, some serious music insight. I'm gonna keep it real. I have no idea what this story is about. Hear new episodes of All Songs Considered every Tuesday. Wherever you get.