Richard Kind Is Glad He's Not That Famous

Summary

Fresh Air Episode Summary: Richard Kind Is Glad He's Not That Famous

Release Date: April 14, 2025
Hosts: Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley
Guest: Richard Kind

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Fresh Air, Terry Gross sits down with the multifaceted actor Richard Kind, best known for his roles in "Only Murders in the Building," "Inside Out," and the Coen Brothers' acclaimed film "A Serious Man." The conversation delves into Kind's extensive career, his current role as the announcer and sidekick on the Netflix show "Everybody's Live with John Mulaney," his experiences working with legendary figures like Stephen Sondheim, and his nuanced perspectives on fame and personal fulfillment.

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Richard Kind's Career Journey

Terry Gross opens the discussion by highlighting Kind's diverse body of work, from his early days on "Mad About You" and "The Carol Burnett Show" to his memorable performances in both live-action and animated formats. Kind reflects on his extensive career, mentioning:

"I've been in hundreds of movies and TV shows... I always crave ideas. And when an idea hits me, it grips me and it tortures me until I master it." (02:45)

He shares anecdotes from his time working on "Everybody's Live with John Mulaney," where his character often parodies figures like Gene Simmons, leading to both humorous and challenging moments.

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Navigating Fame and Personal Fulfillment

A significant portion of the conversation centers on Kind's relationship with fame. Unlike major celebrities like George Clooney, Kind acknowledges:

"You know a lot of celebrities, and you've seen things that you're grateful you don't have to go through... I get to walk down the streets of New York and get to where I'm going." (08:20)

He contrasts his experiences with those of more globally recognized actors, expressing gratitude for a semblance of normalcy and the ability to lead a relatively private life despite widespread recognition. Gross adds her perspective, illustrating the pressures that come with greater fame:

"All the things that celebrity friends go through... I have a life where I can just walk down the street and interact with people without the constant scrutiny." (08:42)

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Working with Stephen Sondheim

One of the standout segments of the interview explores Kind's collaboration with the legendary composer Stephen Sondheim in the musical "Bounce." Kind recounts:

"He always liked actors better than singers, but he loved when he heard his songs sung beautifully... He was so specific. If I put a 'the' instead of an 'an' in the lyric, he would correct me." (17:22)

He shares the intensity of working under Sondheim's direction, emphasizing the meticulous attention to detail and the challenges of performing complex musical numbers. Kind performs a poignant rendition of "Get Out of My Life," showcasing his ability to blend acting with singing, albeit humorously admitting his limitations:

"I'm not a singer... People ask me to sing. It's like I'm an improviser, but I'm not a great improviser." (24:12)

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Reflections on Acting and Personal Growth

Kind opens up about his personal insecurities and the balancing act between confidence and self-doubt that many actors experience:

"Every day, I feel like a fraud. Every single day, I'm waiting for the world to say, 'I'm not that talented.'" (14:02)

Despite these feelings, he emphasizes the importance of continual improvement and authenticity in his craft. Gross adds her own struggles with self-confidence, creating a relatable dialogue about the human side of performing arts.

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Early Career and Lessons Learned

The conversation shifts to Kind's early career experiences, including his time as a singing waiter in Manhattan and working in his father's jewelry store. He humorously recounts:

"I sold lighters and sterling silver keychains and pens... I was not a great salesman." (27:45)

These stories highlight the varied paths actors often take before finding their niche, underscoring the perseverance required in the entertainment industry.

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Personal Beliefs and Heritage

Kind touches upon his Jewish heritage and personal beliefs, revealing a thoughtful perspective on faith and cultural identity:

"I believe that religion is just something that we go to to make us feel better or to give us some sort of foundation because the world is so full of chaos." (35:09)

He discusses the importance of maintaining cultural traditions and serving his heritage, even as his personal beliefs evolve.

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Humorous Anecdotes and Light-Hearted Moments

Throughout the interview, Kind and Gross share light-hearted moments, including Terry Gross's attempt at singing a Sondheim song and her own jokes. For instance, she humorously tells:

"This mother is making her teenage son's bed... and she's gonna get... we're certainly not gonna spank him." (40:20)

These exchanges provide a glimpse into their camaraderie and the playful side of podcast interviews.

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Conclusion

The Fresh Air episode concludes with gratitude for the insightful and entertaining conversation. Richard Kind expresses appreciation for the dialogue, while Terry Gross wraps up by teasing upcoming segments and highlighting future guests.

"Richard Kind, speaking with Terry Gross, is the announcer and sidekick on the series Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. It's live on Netflix Wednesday nights and then streams after we take a short break." (40:59)

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Richard Kind: "I have a huge ego with no confidence." (37:51)
• Terry Gross: "Every day, I wake up like that every day. But a flip side of that... I'm not gonna be bad. I'll be fine." (14:02)
• Richard Kind: "It's not what Hollywood wants." (24:54)
• Terry Gross: "Nobody tells a joke better than I do." (40:14)

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Fresh Air offers a comprehensive look into Richard Kind's life and career, blending professional insights with personal reflections. Listeners gain an appreciation for the complexities of fame, the dedication required in the performing arts, and the importance of staying true to oneself amidst industry pressures. Through candid conversations and shared humor, Terry Gross and Richard Kind create an engaging narrative that resonates with both fans and newcomers alike.

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Transcript

[Terry Gross]

This message comes from NPR sponsor the Official Hacks Podcast from Max. Hacks is back for another season, and so is the podcast. Unpack each episode of Hacks with help from the creators, cast and crew. Listen to the Official Hacks podcast wherever you get your podcasts. This is FRESH air. I'm Tonya Moseley. Terri has today's interview live around the world from the corner of Sunset and Gower in Los Angeles, it's Everybody's Live with Joe John Mulaney. And now, here's your host, John Mullaney.

[Richard Kind]

That's my guest actor Richard Kind in his current role on the Netflix show Everybody's Live with John Mulaney as the announcer and Melania's sidekick. He does sketches, too. The show conforms to the late night format in the sense that there's an opening monologue, but then it becomes a panel discussion on a specific subject, like funerals, loaning people money and getting fired. With guests like Pete Davidson, Michael Keaton, Fred Armisen, Bill Hader, Henry Winkler, John Waters and Wanda Sykes, Everybody's Live is live on Netflix Wednesday nights and streams after that. Richard Kind has been in hundreds of movies and TV shows. In the series Only Murders in the Building, he was the neighbor Vince Fish, AKA Stink Eye Joe with a highly contagious case of pink eye. In the animated film Inside out, he was the voice of the imaginary friend Bing Bong. In the Coen Brothers film A Serious man, he was the deeply troubled brother. Earlier in his career, he co starred in the series Mad about yout and was a cast member of the Carol Burnett show Carol and Company. His youthful ambition was to be in a Stephen Sondheim musical. He's been in two he starred in a production of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum at the Stephen Sondheim center for the Performing Arts, and in the musical Bounce, he originated the role of Addison Meisner and got to work with Sondheim. Kind was in the Michael J. Fox series Spin City. In Curb youb Enthusiasm, he was Larry David's cousin Andy. And I think he's still angry that a recent series he co starred in, East New York, was canceled after one season. Angry because he thought it was really good. Let's start with a clip from the latest episode of Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. Mulaney explains that Kind got hit on the head with a Kiss album, which left him with a traumatic brain injury and now he thinks he's Gene Simmons. He's dressed like Simmons, his hair is like Simmons, and he Talks like Simmons, too. After he says something vulgar to Mulaney, Mulaney starts to apologize to the audience.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, so normally I'd apologize for such a cracked comment. Gentlemen, I crave ideas. And when an idea hits me, it grips me and it tortures me until I master it. Listen, Gene, I know you think you're Gene Simmons, man. But, Richard, if you're in there somewhere, please just give me a sign. I didn't expect you to greet me with open arms, but I did expect open legs.

[Richard Kind]

All right, Richard Kine, welcome to Fresh Air. I have to ask you because this question is as much about me as it is about you. So when I interviewed Gene Simmons many years ago, he said to me, if you want to welcome me with open arms, you'll also have to welcome me with open legs.

[Terry Gross]

I don't know anything about Gene Simmons. My reference about Gene Simmons is kiss. Seeing him with makeup. And then John sent me the very contentious interview you had with him. So I said, oh, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to be that contentious. Very, very. I don't want to say stoic, but he was not even somber, but he was still. And he just talks these awful things. He was awful to you? He was terrible. And you.

[Richard Kind]

I got a lot of mileage out of that, though.

[Terry Gross]

Did you? Okay, well, a lot of times, yeah.

[Richard Kind]

Got a lot of attention.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, good, good.

[Richard Kind]

Yeah. Insulting me was actually doing me a favor, evidently.

[Terry Gross]

Don't expect it from me. I'm not that kind of.

[Richard Kind]

Okay. Okay, so everybody's live. Your new late night talk show is adapted from last year's Netflix series, Everybody's In. How did Mulaney describe it to you when he asked you to be his sidekick?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, he didn't. Now, I've got to say this about that show. We were supposed to do six last May, Friday, and then Monday through Friday. And he said, even if we get moon landing ratings, we're not doing any more. So you can imagine my surprise when I read he's doing 12 more. It didn't even say whether or not I was coming back. Then when I spoke to him, I said, listen, John, you don't have to ask me to do it. You know, it was six and out. And he goes. I go, I won't be insulted. He goes, I'd be very insulted, but he didn't even call me. And then, oh, my gosh. Then I find out we're doing 12. This is not what I was born to do. It was a lark. When I Did the first six. It was fun. Oh, my gosh. Now it's a job. Now it's. I better be good. We're on live all over the world on Netflix. All over the world. What if I say something that's so unfunny or, God forbid, something I would regret saying, I can't take it back. Oh, right.

[Richard Kind]

Cause it's live. Yeah, yeah, part of it.

[Terry Gross]

Somebody asked, is this the largest audience you've ever played to? I said, yes, the world is the largest audience I've ever played to.

[Richard Kind]

Yeah. So you're an actor and you've been in so many things, but you're not a big celebrity. Like, everybody's seen you in at least one thing. So many people know who you are, but you're not famous in the way that your good friend George Clooney is famous.

[Terry Gross]

That is correct.

[Richard Kind]

And you've said you like it that way.

[Terry Gross]

I didn't know I would like it that way. Because my brain, much less my career, has gone through different permutations over the years. When I was a kid, you know, a kid lies in bed and dreams of being center fielder for the Yankees, or, you know, being an astronaut, being a rock star, I wanted to be a movie star. I wanted to be up, you know, on the big screen. The funny thing is, when I was angry at my parents, I wasn't going to write them a note that I'm running away. I was gonna make a film and show it in the theater. That's how I was gonna tell them, I'm running away.

[Richard Kind]

Gonn them.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. And go. I'll show you. I'm gonna go make it big. And you'll see, you'll see. You'll be sorry that you didn't let me go see that movie. And that's what I thought about. So I, you know, it was on. That's what it was. And I had a dream. My grandparents used to take me to Broadway. Cause they lived in New York. We lived near. We lived in Pennsylvania, in Bucks County. And so I would come where I was from. My joke is, you either went to the Spectrum to see the Rolling Stones or you went to Madison Square Garden. I went to Madison Square Garden. All my friends went to the Spectrum and still live in Philly. I went to New York because that's what I knew. My grandparents showed me the city, and I wanted to be Zero Mostel. Zero Mostel and Robert Preston. That's who I wanted to be.

[Richard Kind]

Oh, well, you got to be Zero Mostel.

[Terry Gross]

I did.

[Richard Kind]

I've even Gotten to be in two shows and A Funny Thing happened on the Way to the floor.

[Terry Gross]

I did and I did.

[Richard Kind]

And the producers.

[Terry Gross]

Listen, you. Your intro was really good because you pointed out things I'm very proud of. Okay. A lot of people just look at the IMDb page and, you know, like. And give some little credit of a movie that I don't even remember doing. But I liked what you mentioned. You know, the thing is, when you look me up, you see a lot of the movies and TV shows. But, like, I did an opera at New York City Opera.

[Richard Kind]

But I want to get back to the fact that you're not a George Clooney level celebrity.

[Terry Gross]

Right.

[Richard Kind]

But everybody seems to know you. You know a lot of celebrities, and you've seen things that you're grateful you don't have to go through. So what are some of the things that you've seen celebrity friends go through that you're grateful you don't have to deal with?

[Terry Gross]

All right, I'll tell you a story. I knew Matt Perry when he was a kid, and we would.

[Richard Kind]

This is Matthew Perry from Friends, right?

[Terry Gross]

And yes, that Matt Perry. And we used to, you know, as a young kid, we would go to the Formosa, all of our friends, we would drink. If he could sit at a typewriter and type everything he wanted in his life, from a dog to what the house would look like, to what kind of car to what his girlfriend would look like, everything came true. And I saw that it doesn't bring happiness, and I thought it would. So anyway, I went to Vegas with Matt around two or three weeks after Friends premiered. It was September, October. He started at one side of the casino and went through and was looking both ways to see if he was recognized. And he just walked through the casino. The following January, we did the same thing. He took two steps into the casino, and that's as far as he went. And that was one of the saddest things. It's what everybody dreams of. And they don't realize that they're dreaming of prison. And it's prison. He doesn't have a life. I get to walk down the streets of New York and get to where I'm going. I will walk down the street and somebody will say, Mr. Kind, you've changed my life. You're wonderful. You're a treasure. Oh, my gosh, you're the best. We love you. My whole family loves you. And that's one person. And I pass 250 people who don't know who I am. So it's wonderful. To get the accolades. And it's humbling to just keep walking. I like to keep walking. Now, when I was a kid, I wanted to be stopped by everybody. Now I have a life.

[Richard Kind]

I want to play a clip from the series Girls 5 Eva about a girl group that.

[Terry Gross]

You really did your work. Yeah, that's a good one.

[Richard Kind]

And this clip seems almost like a self parody. So the girl group that dawn, the Sara Bareilles character, is in, has a show at Radio City Music hall, but they're having trouble selling tickets. So she's running around the streets of Manhattan looking for a famous person for the show who could help, and she sees that a film or a TV show is being shot and notices you at the crafts table. Here's the clip.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, oh, oh, wait, wait.

[Richard Kind]

You're somebody, right?

[Terry Gross]

Where do I know you from? Everything. I got an IMDb page longer than a wizard's beard.

[Richard Kind]

You're Richard Kind.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, you're Bing Bong. Hey, what are you doing tomorrow? Why?

[Richard Kind]

My girl group booked Radio City because.

[Terry Gross]

We'Re making our big comeback and we.

[Richard Kind]

Haven'T sold any tickets because of a variety of reasons.

[Terry Gross]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You got a list of problems longer than a wizard's feet? Man, I said that already. What else is long?

[Richard Kind]

CVS receipt.

[Terry Gross]

CVS receipt. That's funny. Pretend I said that. Can you do something in our show? Really use someone who can move the needle? No, no, no, no, no. I'm not a needle mover, and that's by design. I've spent the past 40 years striking the perfect balance between constantly working and never getting bugged in a deli. And another thing. Why would you say and another thing and then take a big bite? I mistimed him. You overshot. Never chase the big time. The big time is bad news. That's when the fighting starts. People get desperate, friends turn on each other. What you want is the medium time. Never above number five on the call sheet of life. That's happiness. Look at me. I work every day of my life doing what I love. Well, not today. Today I had a doctor's appointment. I'm fine. And then I walk by here. I see the spread, I put some tissue in my collar, and I pretend like I'm working here. What is this anyway? Euphoria? Did I guess on this show, it doesn't matter. The important thing is I don't have time for this.

[Richard Kind]

Zendaya Maude Apatow.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, my gosh. That conversation was longer than a CBS receipt. That's funny. I just made that Up.

[Richard Kind]

That's a great scene. I love that scene.

[Terry Gross]

It's a great scene.

[Richard Kind]

Was that supposed to be a parody of you?

[Terry Gross]

Sure, and it was, and it's hilarious. And I'm mortified, you know? Yeah, but it's hilarious. It is a parody. I say yes to a lot of things. I'm in so many things. But, you know, I'll go back to the question you asked, because you addressed George, who is my dear friend. And remember, I came up in the business with him. And my joke was, is that at the time that we worked together, I was the handsome one. And then our careers went a different way. So he can't go out. Like, I can go out. He can't even go to a bar the way that I can go to a bar. He's gonna get. He's gonna get bothered. You get tired of that, and you realize, dare I say it, you don't deserve it. You're a little bit of a fraud.

[Richard Kind]

Is that how you feel? That you're a little bit of a fraud?

[Terry Gross]

Oh, every day, I feel like a fraud. Every single day, I'm waiting for the world to say, I'm not that talented. I don't have that. I'm not that good. Every day. I wake up like that every day. But a flip side of that. A friend of mine said, I may not always be great anymore, but I think I'm good enough to never stink. You know what I mean? I'm not gonna be bad. I'll be fine. There are parts that I hope I'm great in, and I always yearn to. Not just to be great, but to be better than everybody else in a scene. I want to be great. But if you're playing tennis with a better tennis player, it's just not going to happen. So there are some times when I say, you know what? You're not going to win an Academy Award for this role. Just do it correctly. Don't try and stand out. Don't try and steal. Just do it. Just. Just do the part. And that's a very different way to come to set.

[Richard Kind]

I want to talk with you about working with Stephen Sondheim and being, like, originating a role. Originating a Stephen Sondheim role. Wow. Unfortunately, it was a show that never quite caught on and went through several iterations and even several titles. So you were in Bounce as Addison Meisner, one of two brothers. Who was it? Boca Raton, that they helped build.

[Terry Gross]

Mm.

[Richard Kind]

You originated a role. And before we talk about what it was like to work with Sondheim, On a Sondheim musical. I wanna play a song from it, and it's called get out of My Life. And I chose this because it's a good song and you're really great in it. This song is, like, part singing and part, like, really acting.

[Terry Gross]

Thank you.

[Richard Kind]

Because you're angry with this, and it really shows you off. There's a song by Stephen Sondheim from his musical Bounce with my guest, Richard Kind.

[Terry Gross]

Addie, I just want you to know that I appreciate. Get out of my life. Get the hell out of my life. Whatever this race we're in, okay? You win. It's done. And now that you've won, get out of my life. It used to be fun to watch you sleep and even be a part of it at the start of it. It got to be fun to stand and beam at the suckers, But I learned that from you. I thought that we'd go from scheme to dream, but then I thought we were a team. Amen. No more I've looked at the score. You owe me a life A life of my Wanted to collide like you before I do Please leave me alone get out of my life so I can live it Just go away and what if I.

[Richard Kind]

So that was my guest, Richard Kind, singing Get out of My Life from the original cast recording of the Stephen Sondheim musical Bounce. So you worked directly with Sondheim on this, right?

[Terry Gross]

I did, yeah.

[Richard Kind]

What kind of direction did he give you about how to do his songs?

[Terry Gross]

He's a guy who always liked actors better than singers, but he loved when he heard his songs sung beautifully. But during a show, he wanted it acted better. He loved actors. He would always check in. Are you having fun? Does this sound good? He wrote for the actor and yet was so specific. If I put a the instead of an an in the lyric, he would correct me. Hanging on my wall in my house one of my most treasured things is just typed out lyrics, you know, maybe three, four lines in the song. And he would then cross it out and put it in pencil, because he famously wrote in pencil the changes. And he was diligent on every comma, every word. He really worked hard. I will say this. This is sort of funny. The first time I met him, I went up to him. It was at Hal's Christmas party, Hal Prince's Christmas party. I went up to him and I said, do you know who I am? I had a beard, and I go, do you know who I am? He said, yes, you're Richard Kind. And the beard goes, that was the first thing he said to him. Yeah. Also one other thing, short thing is there's a thing called Zitsprobe, which is when the orchestra, you hear the orchestra play what you're going to hear for the rest of the run. You've been only accompanied by a piano. Now you've got an orchestra. So we're doing Zitsprob and I go to the bathroom at the same time. He goes to the bathroom. I didn't harmonize a lot. There were a lot of just solos in the show. And I said, thank you so much for not writing harmonies. I can't do them. And he said he can't do them either. He can write them, but he can't sing them either. His ears isn't good enough.

[Richard Kind]

What was it like? He was one of your heroes. You always wanted to be in one of his shows. And here he was directing you and kind of being very picky about every word and probably about every note as well.

[Terry Gross]

Sure.

[Richard Kind]

Did that make you self conscious?

[Terry Gross]

Yes. I was very scared. I was nervous the whole time. I was a smoker at the time. Quits. That's when I quit smoking.

[Richard Kind]

You quit smoking to sing Sondheim, you have to.

[Terry Gross]

I had to do it. Well, I know what smoking can do. You have to have breath control. You know, you have to go to the end of the line. You can't take a pause in the middle of one of his words or one of his sentences. Actually, if you're in a sitcom, you can't take a breath in the middle of a line because in order to get the proper laugh, you have to take it to the end of the sentence. Otherwise the audience may hear where the joke is going to go or you can't surprise them. And there's a rhythm to a joke. You have to be able to control what that rhythm is. So smoking is your enemy. You have to have lung control.

[Richard Kind]

Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Kind. He's currently in the Netflix series Everybody's Live with John Mulaney as Mulaney's sidekick. And that airs live on Netflix Wednesday nights at 10 Eastern and then it streams afterwards. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH.

[Terry Gross]

Air support for NPR. And the following message come from GoodRx. Looking for relief from allergies this spring, Pay as little as $15 for common allergy medications with Goodrx, plus find savings on everyday prescriptions for you and your family. Goodrx lets you compare prescription prices at over 70,000 pharmacies and instantly find discounts of up to 80%. And even if you have insurance or Medicare, Goodrx may beat your copay price. Stop Allergy season in its tracks? Go to goodrx.com fresh this message comes from Amazon Business. How can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and Support available at amazonbusiness.com, nPR informs and connects communities around the country, providing reliable information in times of crisis.

[Richard Kind]

Federal funding helps us fulfill our mission.

[Terry Gross]

To create a more informed public and ensures that public radio remains available to everyone. Learn more about safeguarding the future of public media. Visit protectmypublicmedia.org hi, this is Molly Sivi Nesburg, digital producer at Fresh air.

[Richard Kind]

And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.

[Terry Gross]

One of the things I do is.

[Richard Kind]

Write the weekly newsletter, and I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly picks, timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.

[Terry Gross]

It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week.

[Richard Kind]

An exclusive, so [e-mail] fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. So we talked a little bit about working with Sondheim on one of his musicals. Earlier in your life, your music was being a singing waiter in a Manhattan restaurant. How did that work and what was your restaurant repertoire? I'm thinking, speaking of Sondheim, that you have to sing like upbeat, ingratiating songs and you can't sing a song from Sweeney Todd like they all deserve to die.

[Terry Gross]

You don't. Look, I sang for me. I sang my audition song was hey There. I would sing that. I'd sing the big song was There Is Nothing Like a Dame. I got to sing that pretty well. One night. One night, Theodore Bickell was in the restaurant. I wanted to impress him so much. So I wanted to sing There Is Nothing Like a Dame, which goes up to a high C, I think, or a G, let's say a G. It goes up to a high G, which was a note at the time that I could reach. So we had a replacement pianist that night. The guy who usually played it for me was not there. So he goes, what key do you sing it in? I go, I don't know. And he goes, well, maybe it's CNN C. And as I'm singing it, I'm going, this doesn't feel right. So that by the time I go, damn, like that and I hit the wrong note, it was horrible. And the whole restaurant stopped. I did not impress Theodore Bickle. I ran back to the kitchen and the chef, who was a lovely guy, he was French, he goes, oh, Richie, that did not sound good. It was hilarious.

[Richard Kind]

Were tips based on your singing?

[Terry Gross]

God, no. I'd starve. Listen, Terry, I sing, but I'm not a singer. And that I could do Sondheim. I can hit notes, but I can't harmonize. And I'm not a singer. People ask me to sing. It's like I'm an improviser, but I'm not a great improviser. I can improvise. There are great singers and there are great improvisers. I'm very good. It's just in my bag of tricks. So I can sing a song, but I'm not great, but I can. I'm very loud. I'm from the Ethel Merman School of Music and that's what I do.

[Richard Kind]

You had a teacher, an acting teacher, who said to you, you're not going to get the roles, right?

[Terry Gross]

It's not what Hollywood wants.

[Richard Kind]

Yeah. So how discouraging was that when your own acting teacher said to you, you're not going to get the roles until your 30s? Did you see that as discouraging? Like he's telling me about, wait, wait, wait. Did you see it as encouraging with him saying, like, it's going to take some time, but you will get roles when you're in your 30s. You will do well in your 30s. Where did you interpret it?

[Terry Gross]

You're talking about two teachers. Oh, my high school teacher. I went to school with a great actor named Robert Curtis Brown. You'd know him as the yuppie in Trading Places. Now he's had a career that's much larger, but whenever I mention his name, that's his most famous role. He was a great actor. He is a great actor and a handsome guy. So I had my high school teacher say, you know, go into your dad's business because Hollywood is looking for, for Robert, okay? That's who they want. I acknowledge that. Then I went to college as a pre law so that I would take over my dad's store. Frank Galati, a very well known Chicago theater maven at the Goodman at Steppenwolf and a teacher at Northwestern. So when I got his advice, he said, look, go be a producer, and so you get to be in showbiz, but you're busy. I go, no, it's either I'm an actor or I'm a rich jeweler. He said, well, you're not going to get famous or get known until you're in your 30s, when you sort of grow into who you are. Did I believe him? Terry, I wish that I could say this is what I chose to do. All I did was say yes to whatever was presented, and my path was created by that. I didn't set out to join Second City. I went to someplace in Chicago, Practical Theater Company. They saw me and said, do you want to do Second City? I said, yeah. Well, Second City taught me a lot. Four and a half years. All of that way station of waiting for roles, and waiting for roles was spent on stage and getting paid and developing into who the actor who. I was in front of 400 people a night. I got lucky. I really did.

[Richard Kind]

Your father owned a jewelry store in Princeton, and you sometimes work there. And apparently it was a famous store. And I would presume you sold a lot of jewelry to men buying gifts for girlfriends and fiances and wives and mistresses. What was it like as a man selling to men who know nothing about women's jewelry but want to give something to the woman in their life who they love or they want to impress or they want to make up with?

[Terry Gross]

Well, okay. My dad didn't trust me with the beautiful jewels or the. Or the expensive stuff. I sold lighters and sterling silver keychains and the pens and stuff like that. Maybe candelabras, but I didn't sell the expensive stuff. And I was no good. I was a good salesman. My dad was a great Salesman. I'd spend 45 minutes with some guy saying, oh, you see these pearls? You see how they're graduated? You see how this set of this strand? The pearls match each other best? And then my dad would come up after I've been with the guy for 40 minutes, and he would come up, he goes, bill, Mary wants a strand of pearls. And he'd go, yeah. And he goes, richie, wrap these up. And he'd pick up the pearls and say. And I would go. And that's what my dad did. I worked and I worked and I worked. Now, there's a very funny story where I had a Dunhill lighter, okay? And I'm showing this woman various Dunhill lighters, which are beautiful lighters. And I pull one out and she says, I'll take this one. And I write down $25. And she says, no, excuse me, I think that's $250. I go, no, no, it's $25. And I show her and she goes, no, that says $250. And I look, I go, oh my God, 250 do. So that's the kind of salesman I was. Yeah, I was not. Great.

[Richard Kind]

Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Kind. He's currently in the Netflix series Everybody's Live with John Mulaney as Mulaney's sidekick. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

[Terry Gross]

99% of the US population lives within listening range of at least one public media station and everyone can listen to NPR podcasts free of charge. That means you get completely unpaywalled access to stories, prize winning reporting and shows that represent the voices in every corner of the country. Hear the bigger picture every day on npr. Having news at your fingertips is great, but sometimes you need an escape. And that's where Short Wave comes in. We're a joy filled science podcast driven.

[Richard Kind]

By wonder and curiosity that will get.

[Terry Gross]

You out of your head and in touch with the world around you.

[Richard Kind]

Listen now to Short Wave, the science podcast from npr. These days there is a lot of news. It can be hard to keep up with what it means for you, your.

[Terry Gross]

Family and your community.

[Richard Kind]

Consider this from NPR is a podcast that helps you make sense of the news. Six days a week we bring you a deep dive on a story and provide the context, backstory and analysis you need to understand our rapidly changing world. Listen to the Consider this podcast from npr. So you had a significant role in a film I really love, a Serious man that was made by the Coen brothers. And Michael Stuhlbark plays a man whose wife is leaving him. He might be losing his teaching job. A student is kind of blackmailing him. His whole life is falling apart and he's also wrestling with the concept of God and with his Judaism. You play his brother, you're a gambler, you're broke, you have a sebaceous cyst that's become a big problem. You're in misery and it's a kind of modern day version of the Book of Job. At least that's how I think of it. And I'm wondering if you thought of it that way and if you read or reread the Book of Job to do the role and if people talked about it on the set?

[Terry Gross]

Not at all.

[Richard Kind]

I'm glad I asked.

[Terry Gross]

I had a teacher who said every answer you need is in the script. Just read the script. You don't have to do any research. Certainly the Book of Job wouldn't have done anything. I didn't think I was telling the Book of Job. I thought I was talking about this guy named Arthur Gopnik. And these were his circumstances. And you play pretend if it meshes into what you think is the Book of Job. And you interpret all of that, God bless you. But no, no, no. That's not what I did at all. I just played the scene, what are my circumstances? How do I feel? And you just play pretend. That's what it is.

[Richard Kind]

What was the Coen brothers approach to directing you from your point of view as an actor? What was it like to work with them?

[Terry Gross]

They're great. I love them. You're always at the height of your game. I was surprised at how word perfect they liked their script, but they should. Cause they're great writers. Sometimes Joel would take a physical position that sort of told me everything about what he wanted in the scene. The scene where the police are at the door. He sat down in a chair and he leaned back. And Joel is a long, lanky man. And his face almost looked five inches longer than it is. And that's what I saw in. When I leaned back in the chair. Dare I say, he almost looked like a horse when he was looking back. And that's what I saw. So I played pretend that I was a lovely man, even though I am a poker player. You said a gambler. I think of myself as a card player, not as necessarily a gambler. And I don't know why, but when you said a gambler, I said, no, I'm not a gambler. I'm a poker player. And that's different. I'm a gamesman. I'm not a gambler. Does that make sense to you?

[Richard Kind]

Absolutely.

[Terry Gross]

Okay.

[Richard Kind]

And then you had a skill. You weren't.

[Terry Gross]

Yes, I had a skill. They're not letting me play cards anymore. Why aren't they do. Why I can't even play cards anymore. And what a sad man. I'm a very simple man. As opposed to my brother, who's a serious man. I'm a simple man. That's what I saw. I'm even talking like him as I'm described. This is. I don't do that. So that's who the guy was.

[Richard Kind]

The movie A Serious man is also about, you know, like struggling with your faith? Yes, because the Michael Stubar character has conversations with rabbis and he's kind of losing his faith because everything's going wrong in his life.

[Terry Gross]

Right.

[Richard Kind]

I know you were on finding your roots and you found out that some of your ancestors were religious leaders in the Pale of Settlement. And the Pale of Settlement was during the Russian Empire. It was a large area of what we now call Eastern Europe that was basically the ghetto for Jews. Like Jews had to live within this expanse of land. And so, so many American Jews, their grandparents or ancestors lived in the Pale of Settlement. What did it do to your own faith or religious practice, if you had any? I know you're born Jewish. I have no idea how observant you are. But what did level of observance to find out about people on your family tree being religious leaders?

[Terry Gross]

I know what God is to me. I don't believe in a Jewish God. I believe in God. I believe there is a power, and I believe that he encompasses all religions. I believe that religion is just something that we go to to make us feel better or to give us some sort of foundation because the world is so full of chaos and we can't really find ourselves. What do believe is in my ancestors. And I believe that Judaism, that form of foundation, must survive because these people gave their lives and they sacrificed and they believed in the Jewish religion and in a state of Israel and let them have a foundation that they believe in called Judaism. So it's very important that I know what my roots are and what my heritage is and to serve my heritage.

[Richard Kind]

Do you practice any? Do you observe the holidays and the Sabbath and all that? Like, how far do you go?

[Terry Gross]

No, I don't observe the Sabbath. What I do observe is the high holy days, because that God, who I believe in and I live my life daily by, I hope, acting correctly to my fellow man, which is a form of prayer to me and a form of going to church or going to temple. Wow. I can't believe I just said going to church. I believe that is my way of serving God. I believe I'm a good person. And I try and do. I really do try and do unto others as I would myself. So I do go to Rosh Hashanah and I do go to Yom Kippur. And I am very observant about that. Part of it's karma. Part of it is, hey, don't tilt the boat. You know, don't rock the boat right now. Just keep going. And it's also the acknowledgement of my Parents, my grandparents, and all those heritage. But I can't believe that my. How my genetics have just dissipated over the years so that they started out as rabbis in the 1600s. And this is what we end up with. Me, Richard Kind, that's. That's horrible. But I do try and study as much as I can read and try and be up on news and be as responsible a citizen as I can to serve those rabbis who were there at the time.

[Richard Kind]

What you're saying reminds me of something that you've told another interviewer, which is you said, I have a huge ego with no confidence. You want to explain?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Being an actor, it's abnormal. It's an anomaly. It's unnatural for a man to get up on a stage in front of people. It's unnatural to be in front of a camera while 50 to 100 people are behind the camera and pretend that you're somebody else and just lay bare your emotions or pretend you're somebody else. It's unnatural. You know how people are scared of getting attention? And I'm waving my arms going, look at me, look at me, look at me. And yet with that look at me, look at me, look at me, comes a fear of what I said earlier. I'm a fraud. Am I good enough? I can't. I don't know whether or not what I'm doing. And I think any actor worth his salt would like to be better and give a better performance than what they gave. There's, oh, my gosh, did I do it correctly? Should I do it again? I need affirmation all the time. It's why I like live theater. Even if it's a drama, I can feel the audience listening to me, liking me. That's. And I'm an empty. I'm an empty urn. There's no bottom to the urn of love that I need. That is lack of confidence. And yet my ego says, go out and do it and do it and do it louder than everybody else. It's who I am. I'm oversized in my voice. I'm loud in my opinions. When I'm opinionated, I'm really loud. And even my acting. A funny line that my friend Craig Bierko said in a toast once. He goes, the astronauts were up in space and they saw two things. The Great Wall of China and every acting choice Richard Kind ever made.

[Richard Kind]

I love that line so much.

[Terry Gross]

It's so funny. It's so funny. Is it how I chose to live my life? No, I wouldn't choose it, but it's what I'm saddled with.

[Richard Kind]

Do you tell jokes? I mean, you obviously have a great sense of humor, but do you?

[Terry Gross]

Actually, Terry, nobody tells a joke better than I do.

[Richard Kind]

Oh, great. Do you want to tell us one that you love?

[Terry Gross]

Sure. So this mother is making her teenage son's bed, and she's tucking in the sheets, and she reaches underneath and she pulls out a magazine of bondage of, like handcuffs and whips. And she goes, oh, my God. So the husband comes home. She goes, honey, honey, honey, look what I found under Timmy's bed. He goes, oh, my God. She goes, what are we gonna do? He goes, well, we're certainly not gonna spank him.

[Richard Kind]

That's great.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, I got lots of them. Nobody tells a joke better than I do.

[Richard Kind]

Well, Richard Kine, thank you so much for talking with us.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, thank you, Terry. This was fun. I enjoyed it. You're great. You're great. Richard Kyne, speaking with Terry Gross Kind, is the announcer and sidekick on the series Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. It's live on Netflix Wednesday nights and then streams after we take a short break. Rock critic Ken Tucker will share his take on Kendrick Lamar's track Luther and two versions of the song it samples. This is FRESH air. Oh, hey there. I'm Brittany Luce, and I don't know, maybe this is a little out of pocket to say, but I think you should listen to my podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute, and I love it. And I think you will, too. Over the past couple months, over 100,000 new listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today. Since Donald Trump took office in January, a lot has happened. The White House Budget Office ordered a pause on all federal grants and loans.

[Richard Kind]

The impact of the Trump administration's tariffs.

[Terry Gross]

Is already being felt in President Trump's efforts to radically remake the federal government. The NPR Politics podcast covers it all. Keep up with what's happening in Washington and beyond with the NPR Politics podcast. Listen every day. The latest season of the White Lotus served up a tropical buffet of sex, betrayal, violence, revenge, privilege, drugs, death. And this was new spirituality. But whose dead body was floating in the pond? We've seen the finale and we've got thoughts on thoughts. Listen to the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from npr. Kendrick Lamar's single Luther, a duet with SZA from his latest album gnx, has spent several weeks at the top of the Billboard Hot 100 chart. The track features a sample of Luther Vandross Beloved 1982 rendition of if this World Were Mine, a song originally written by Marvin Gaye and first recorded by Gaye and Tammy Terrell in 1967. Rock critic Ken Tucker has been revisiting all three versions and shares his thoughts on why this song continues to resonate across generations. If this world were mine hey Roman numeral 7 days drop it like it's hot if this world was mine I'd take your dreams and make em multiply if this world was mine I'd take your enemies in front of God introduce em to that light hit them strictly with the song Luther Kendrick Lamar stakes his claim as that rare thing A great hip hop ballad singer Lamar samples Luther Vandross's if this World Were Mine. That's Vandross's croon you heard in the opening music, with Kendrick singing and rapping his own love lyric all around it. In the context in which this song appears on Lamar's album gnx, Luther serves as a soothing interlude, a bit of intimacy on a collection more often characterized by boasting and aggression. The way Lamar invites SZA to join him as a singing partner here, it's obvious he's steeped in the soul music tradition of a song that was a hit five years before he was born. Okay, now let's hear what Kendrick Lamar loved about that 1982 Luther Vandross single. Luther is at his swooniest here, his voice pouring out a sweet syrup that swirls around Sheryl Lynn's tart, vinegary vocal. Not widely known for his duets, Vandross is at once generous and completely commanding. Here when he sings the words if this world were mine, you kinda wish God would just hand him the keys. If this world were mine I would place at your fe all that I own you've been so good to me if this world were mine I'd give you the flowers, the birds and the bees and the yellow love beside me that would be all I need if this world was.

[Richard Kind]

My.

[Terry Gross]

I give you anything if this world were mad I would make you a king with wealth untold you could have anything if this World Were My Kendrick Lamar's verses in Luther are about the promises he makes to a troubled woman he loves, assuring her that her life will get better with him. The author of if this World Were Mine is Marvin Gaye, whose own lyric in 1967 describes a dreamier scenario than Lamar's, as we might expect from one of the great romantics in pop history, Where Lamarr speaks of flowers of love, that struggle to grow. Through the cracks of tough city streets, Gaye creates for Tammy Turrell an easier world of bright sunshine and illuminating moonlight. The exquisite delicacy of the singing conveys the atmosphere in which such beauty can flourish. If this world were mine, I would place at your feet all that I own. You've been so good to me if this world were mine. And I'd give you the flowers, the birds and the bees but with your love inside me that would be all I need. If this world were mine, I'd give you anything. If this were the mine, I'd make you a king with wealth untold, you could have anything.

[Richard Kind]

If this world were mine.

[Terry Gross]

This duet with Tammy Terrell isn't as famous as others of theirs, such as Ain't no Mountain High Enough or you're All I Need to Get By. In fact, this song was the B side of another hit, if I Could Build My Whole World around, you'd but listening to if this World Were Mine, you can hear why first Luther Vandross and then Kendrick Lamar wanted to make sure we never forgot the shimmering beauty of its majestic melody and its hopeful sentiment. Ken Tucker is FRESH air's rock critic. He reviewed Kendrick Lamar's song Luther from his latest album, gnx, and two versions of the song it samples. Tomorrow on FRESH air, Melinda French Gates talks with me about her new book, the Next Day, which reflects on motherhood, grief, philanthropy and life after divorce. Gates is the former co chair of the Gates foundation and founder of Pivotal Ventures, which is focused on advancing women and families. I hope you'll join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram at nprfreshair. When Malcolm Gladwell presented NPR's Throughline podcast with a Peabody Award, he praised it for its historical and moral clarity. On Throughline, we take you back in time to the origins of what's in the news, like presidential power, aging and evangelicalism. Time travel with us every week on the Throughline podcast from npr at Planet.

[Richard Kind]

Money, we'll take you from a race.

[Terry Gross]

To make rum in the Caribbean. Our rum from a quality standpoint is the best in the world. To the lab streaming up the most advanced microchips. It's very rare for people to go inside to the back rooms of New York's Diamond District. What are you looking for? The stupid guy here. They're all smart. Don't worry about Planet Money from npr. We go to the Story and take you along with us wherever you get your podcasts.