Roots of R&B: Charles Brown & Ray Charles

Summary

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Fresh Air: Roots of R&B—Charles Brown & Ray Charles

Episode Date: August 30, 2025
Host: Terry Gross
Guests: Charles Brown (archival, recorded 1989), Ray Charles (archival, recorded 1998)

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Overview

This episode of Fresh Air dives into the roots of Rhythm & Blues through two iconic artists whose influence defined and transcended genres: Charles Brown and Ray Charles. Hosted by Terry Gross, the show explores the hallmark sounds, stories, and personal philosophies of both musicians—spotlighting Brown's gentle, blues-influenced ballads and Ray Charles' genre-blending genius. Listeners are treated to rare performances, reflections on musical identity, and candid recollections of the music business, southern life, and the interconnectedness of American music.

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Charles Brown: The Gentle Poet of R&B

Early Career and Influences

• Brown details his beginnings with Johnny Moore's Three Blazers, heavily inspired by Nat King Cole's trio, but uniquely rooted in blues balladry.
• He recalls a healthy rivalry:

  "We had a trio at the time. I didn't ever go see Nat Cole, really. I didn't want to see him until I had established a style of my own. Because usually things wipe off on you when you hear someone else." — Charles Brown [10:28]

• Brown’s distinct singing and playing influenced countless artists, including Ray Charles, Sam Cooke, and even Bruce Springsteen.

Defining Songs & Musical Moments

• Brown performs his first big hit, "Driftin' Blues":

  "Well, I'm drifting and I'm drifting like a ship out on the sea... I ain't got nobody in this world to care for me if my baby would only take me back." — Charles Brown [04:02]

• Newer original, "Everybody Looking for Somebody to Love," is performed live:

  "I must find someone to love for me right now, today... Every time I read the Daily News, the headline print gives me the blues." – Charles Brown [07:25]

• On musical influence and "Fool's Paradise":

  “John A. Fuller wrote this number. He was imitating me in San Francisco... and they said, Charles, since they're trying to imitate you doing 'Fool's Paradise', why don't you do it yourself? I did it, and it was a great hit.” — Charles Brown [11:36]

Mentorship and R&B Circuit

• Brown describes how up-and-comers like Ray Charles and Ruth Brown toured under his wing:

  "Ray Charles was opening for Charles Brown... People thought he was singing so much like me. Is that Charles Brown?... All the artists that were in Char agency, they were depending on me to carry them through." – Charles Brown [14:46]

• Brown shares advice he gave to Fats Domino about stage performance:

  “I said, Fats, look, you lose your audience when you do this. You got to have your next number ready. And if you watch Fats Domino right today... he goes right to the next number.” — Charles Brown [15:11]

"Merry Christmas, Baby"

• Brown’s timeless holiday classic, performed live:

  "Merry Christmas, baby, you sure did treat me nice. Gave me a diamond ring for Christmas. Now I'm living in paradise." — Charles Brown [16:44]

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Ray Charles: Genre-Defining Genius

Breaking Genre Boundaries

• Ray Charles discusses his record label's doubts about making a country record:

  "Their concern was, is that I was a rhythm and blues artist, unquote. And they thought if I start doing country music, that I would lose a lot of fans... My attitude was... I think that I'll gain more fans than I'll lose if I do it right." — Ray Charles [20:49]

Musical Identity and Influences

• Admits to originally imitating Nat King Cole and Charles Brown:

  "Most people think of Nat Cole as a great singer... But I was looking at Nat Cole as a pianist... That's what I wanted to do — play little tasty things behind what I was singing." — Ray Charles [22:08] "Charles Brown had that real... he always sounded like he was pleading, begging... sincere." — Ray Charles [22:54]

• Recognition that early in his career, he hadn’t yet developed his own sound:

  "Nobody knows my name. Everybody said to me, 'Hey, kid, you sound just like Nat Cole.'... You got to be yourself. If you're going to make it in this business." — Ray Charles [24:49]

Arranging, Selecting, and Feeling Songs

• On making country standards his own:

  "Any song... I sing it to myself and see if I can genuinely feel it... Sometimes I can run into songs that are good songs, but I can't make it do anything for me... It's really a true feeling, what you feel inside." — Ray Charles [26:31]

• On choosing songs:

  "I start with the lyrics. What are the lyrics saying to me? What kind of story are they telling me?" — Ray Charles [36:47]

Childhood, Blindness, and Musical Training

• Reflects on growing up in rural Florida, listening to country radio and experiencing a blend of blues, country, and gospel.
• Losing his sight:

  "She knew I was going to lose my eyesight, and so... she started showing me how to get around and how to do things without seeing." — Ray Charles [39:44]

• On learning music at school for the blind:

  "I couldn't get into piano class... so I started taking up clarinet." — Ray Charles [41:49]

Finding His Own Sound

• On "I Got A Woman" as a musical turning point:

  "That was it. Because when I did that, that seemed to upset a lot of people, but it was really me... People thought it was too religious. I was bastardizing the church... Later on... they start calling it soul music." — Ray Charles [47:24]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Charles Brown (on influence):
  "People thought Ray Charles was singing so much like me." [14:46]

• Ray Charles (on defining himself):
  "I'm not a country singer. I'm not a jazz singer. I'm not a blues singer... What I am is a singer that can sing country music. I can sing the blues. I can sing a love song, but I'm not a specialist." [30:22]

• Ray Charles (on music and race):
  "That is the marvelous thing about music. It is the one thing... there was very, very small [segregation]... I even worked with a hillbilly group in Florida. They taught me how to yodel." [34:59]
  [Yodeling snippet and laughs, 35:43]

• Ray Charles (humor):
  Interview interrupted by a phone ringing at his studio:

  "Unfortunately, the switchboard kind of goofed and let it ring back here." — Ray Charles [36:13]

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Key Segment Timestamps

| Time (MM:SS) | Segment/Event | |--------------|--------------| | 03:36 - 16:44 | Charles Brown interviewed, with live performances of "Driftin Blues," "Everybody Looking for Somebody to Love," "Fool's Paradise," and "Merry Christmas, Baby" | | 20:41 - 28:41 | Ray Charles on making country records, musical influences, and establishing his own voice, with samples of "Confession Blues" and "You're Cheating Heart" | | 31:27 - 33:20 | Ray Charles discusses his rural childhood and the communal nature of southern living | | 34:39 - 36:10 | On music, race, country radio, and learning to yodel | | 38:22 - 42:05 | Choosing songs by lyric/story; losing his sight; musical education/training | | 44:03 - 46:28 | Ray explains his method of arranging by calling out notes; early gigs after leaving school | | 47:24 - 48:10 | "I Got A Woman" as Ray Charles' signature sound | | 49:16 - 50:56 | Ray chooses and introduces "Ring of Fire" as a personal favorite from his country catalog | | 50:14 - 51:49 | Ray’s sense of gratitude and farewell with Terry Gross, closing with “Ring of Fire” |

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Tone and Language

The episode maintains Terry Gross’s signature warmth, curiosity, and deep respect for her guests. Both Charles Brown and Ray Charles bring authenticity: Brown with humble humor and dignity, Charles with openness and playful wit. The tone is conversational, intimate, and at times nostalgic, offering insight into the personal lives behind the legends.

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Final Reflection

This archival episode of Fresh Air offers not just musical performances but a rare window into the creative processes and identities of two R&B giants. Both Brown and Charles viewed their careers not in terms of rigid genres but as living, breathing explorations of feeling and human connection. Their paths cross repeatedly—in influence, in direct mentorship, in philosophy—and ultimately in the enduring soundscape of American music.

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For deeper insights and rare performance highlights, this episode remains a must-listen for music lovers and history enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

In Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with FRESH AIR Weekend. Today we continue our R and B.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Rockabilly and Early rock and roll week.

[Terry Gross]

With two interviews from our archive. We'll hear from R and B singer and pianist Charles Brown.

[Charles Brown]

Like a ship out on the sea.

[Terry Gross]

In the 1940s, his sound was inspired by Nat King Cole's trio. His popularity continued into the early 1960s when Merry Christmas, Baby and Please Come Home for Christmas topped the charts. Brown's style influenced many musicians, including see.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

The girl with the diamond ring. She knows how to shake that thing.

[Terry Gross]

Ray Charles, who we'll hear from later in a 1998 interview. That's coming up on FRESH AIR Weekend.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

Tell your mama, tell you, Paul, I'm gonna send you back to Arkansas.

[Ray Charles]

Oh, yes, ma'. Am.

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[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH AIR weekend. I'm Terry Gross. Today's show is part of our archive series R and B rockabilly and early rock and roll. First, we'll listen back to my interview with Charles Brown, who who liked to describe himself as a singer of blues ballads. In the 1940s, he performed with Johnny Moore's Three Blazers, whose sound was inspired by Nat Cole's trio. Brown had nine top 10 R&B singles between 1946 and 52, either as a solo artist or as a member of the Blazers. His popularity continued into the early 1960s, when Merry Christmas, Baby and Please Come Home for Christmas topped the charts. In the 1980s, he made a comeback. Brown influenced a number of musicians, including Otis Redding, James Brown, Sam Cooke, Billy Eckstein, Bruce Springsteen, and Ray Charles, who we'll hear from later in the show. I spoke with Charles Brown in 1989. He died 10 years later at the age of 76. He came to the Fresh Air studio, sat at the piano and sang some songs.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Charles Brown, a pleasure to have you here. Let me ask you to open with the song that became your first big hit back in 1946, Driftin Blues, a song you wrote.

[Charles Brown]

Yes. It moved Louis Jordan out of first place on the cash, Fox magazine and Billboard.

Well, I'm drifting and I'm drifting like a ship out on the sea Drifting and I'm drifting like a ship out on the sea well, I ain't got nobody world to care for me if my baby would only take me back.

[Ray Charles]

Again.

[Charles Brown]

My baby only take me back again no, I'm not good for nothing, baby Charles Brown don't have no friend.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

Sam.

[Charles Brown]

Girl, I give you all my.

Money.

What more can I do? I give you all my money.

[Ray Charles]

What.

[Charles Brown]

More can I do? You just a good little girl.

[Ray Charles]

You.

[Charles Brown]

Just won't be true Bye bye baby baby bye bye bye Bye bye bye baby baby bye bye bye bye it's gonna be too late, baby I'll be too far away Ooh, bye bye bye bye.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Charles Brown, now that we've heard one of your first big hits, why don't.

[Ray Charles]

You play something new for us?

[Charles Brown]

This is a tune that I had the pleasure of writing. It's called Everybody Looking for Somebody to Love, Even at My age. So we hope you like like it.

I'm trying hard to find someone I love to use my mind Seem to have a world of trouble on my mind this heavy load burdens me.

I'm.

Gonna lay it down so I can be free I must find someone to love for me right now, today. Every time I read the Daily News, the headline print gives me the blues. Why is there so much trouble in the Times? There must be someone far away Enjoy my life tell them old and great I must find someone to love for me right now, today oh, my friend seem Far away There's no family love.

Seems it's gone away.

I read the papers each and every day that hate prevails Seems it's here to stay I must find someone to love to ease my mind that's all I'm thinking of I must find Someone to love for me Right now, today.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

That'S a great song. I like that a lot.

[Ray Charles]

You like that?

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Oh, yeah.

[Charles Brown]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I want to mention to our listeners that in the 1940s. You spent a lot of time playing with Johnny Moore's Three Blazers. And Johnny Moore was the brother of Oscar Moore, who was the guitarist with the Nat Cole Trio. And listening to your early records. It sounds like you were really influenced by Nat Cole. When you were starting out in the 40s to record.

[Charles Brown]

Well, you know, we had a trio at the time. And I didn't ever go see Nat Cole, really. And I didn't want to see him until I had established a style of my own. Because usually things wipe off on you when you hear someone else. How you sit at the piano. And I never did see him sit at the piano until I was established myself. Because actually, I didn't know what I was going to do. Because John Hopkins, who had worked with Nat Cole before, was a valet. He had told us that. Charles, this is where you should sit, at the piano. So Bobby not seen Nat Cole do it. But we were two trios challenging one another. At the time. He was more into pop, and we were into the Race Record Group. But we were still number one at that time. We didn't know we were going to be at. But we had the Pittsburgh Courier on a poll. And we won the poll. But Carlos Gastel said, Bernat Cole, the Blazers are not going to win the poll. Because I'm going to send $1,000 in there. And I'm going to beat them with the votes. So he did that.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Well, you've influenced a lot of singers. And one of the many people you've influenced was Mose Allison, who recorded one of the songs that you did for Paradise.

[Charles Brown]

Yeah, Sam Cooke did, too. And a lot of the other people I don't know. John A. Fuller wrote this number. He was imitating me in San Francisco. And Leo Mester and Eddie Mester would go out as talent scouts and to find tunes that would fit me. And they heard this number being number one in San Francisco. Because this company that had it wasn't able to send it across the country and distribution. So he said, charles, since they're trying to imitate you doing fool's paradise why don't you do it then? I did Fool's paradise, and it was a great hit for me.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Would you play it for us?

[Charles Brown]

Yes, I will.

I often think of the life I live It's a wonder Charles Brown indeed. Drinking and gambling Staying out all night Living in the pools Paradise My mother told me, father told me to Someday, my child faith's gonna catch up with you Drinking and gamblin Staying out all night Dipping in the pools Paradise Though I've learned my lesson like all fools I've met I've learned things are in.

This world.

I remember to my dying day My mother told me Father said it right Said Charles Brown, you running your life Drinking and gambling Staying out all night Living in a pool Paradise Living in a fool's paradise that's it.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

That's great. In the 1950s, you used to travel on the rhythm and blues circuit a lot, and you had a show. And as a matter of fact, Ray Charles, when he was getting started, performed in your show. Opening for you, right?

[Charles Brown]

Yeah. Ray Charles was opening for Charles Brown. And it was during the early 50s, and people thought he was singing so much like me. Is that Charles Brown? So when I came out, they said, oh, no, that's Charles Brown. But at that time, Ray. I had to take Ray Charles around. In fact, all the artists that were in Char agency, they were depending on me to carry them through because the promoters wanted to buy Charles Brown for. In order for Shaw to sell the other acts, he said, well, in order to get Charles bound, you have to take the dominoes. I took them through. I took the Clovers through. I took Ray Charles through. I took Ruth Brown through the Weinberg tour. And then I had to be a criticizer for Fats Domino. When he came into the circuit, I had to go to. Came here to Philadelphia and I came here. He was working at the Baby Grand, I think it was on Pine street, off abroad. And I. I had to sit there and listen to his show. So when I listened to Fats Domino's show, you know, people here in Philadelphia, they were very funny. They were great listeners. And if they enjoyed something, they would give you a wonderful round of applause. So when he finished one number, he would take his time and they would smoke a cigarette, they would do a lot of talking. And so when he came over, I said, fats, look, you lose your audience when you do this. You got to have your next number ready. And if you watch Fat Domino right today, when he gets through with any of his numbers, he goes right to the next number. So we are very dear friends even today.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Well, I don't feel like we could let you leave today without playing some of Merry Christmas, Baby, which is one of the songs you're best known for.

[Charles Brown]

Yeah, they know me for that. No care where I go. Whatever time of year.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

TERRY okay.

[Charles Brown]

Merry Christmas, baby, you sure did treat me nice. Merry Christmas, baby. Sure did treat me nice. Gave me a diamond ring for Christmas. Now I'm living in paradise. Well, I'm feeling mighty fine. Got good music on my stereo Feeling mighty fine Got good music on my radio. Will I want to kiss you, baby, why are you standing beneath the mistletoe? That's just a little part of it.

We won't talk about Satan Nick coming down the chimney yet.

[Terry Gross]

Terry Charles Brown recorded in 1989. He died in 1999. One of the singers he influenced was Ray Charles, and that's who we'll hear from next as we continue our archive series of R and B, rockabilly and early rock and roll. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR Weekend.

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[Terry Gross]

Our archive series, R and B, rockabilly and early rock and roll, we have an interview with Ray Charles. He was nicknamed the Genius, not just for his great singing and piano playing, but also for his producing, arranging and choice of songs. He drew from and contributed to just about every genre, R and B, gospel, soul, rock and roll and country. Many of his great recordings were of country songs. In fact, his 1962 album Modern Sounds and Country and Western Music became one of his best known records and included one of his biggest Hits I Can't Stop Loving you. I spoke with Ray Charles in 1998 after the release of a box set collecting his complete country and western recordings from 1959-86.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

What was the reaction of your record company when you said, around 1962, I.

[Terry Gross]

Want to do a country record?

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Did they think, hey, Ray, great idea?

[Ray Charles]

No, not exactly. Although I understand their concern because, I mean, you know, at the time, I was a pretty good selling artist over at ABC at the time. But their concern was, is that I was a rhythm and blues artist, unquote. And they thought if I start doing country music, that I would lose a lot of fans. And of course, if I lose fans, that means they would lose a lot of business, too. So they did have. I thought their concern was legit. You know, I mean, I understood what Sam Clark, who was the president at the time, was saying to me. He said, you know, you know, kid, I'm a little worried about that. You know, I know it's what you want to do, but we were very worried that you may lose some fans. And my attitude was, well, Sam, you know, you probably could be right, but I think that I'll gain more fans than I'll lose if I do it right. So he said, okay, it's your career. If you want to try it, go ahead and do it.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Now. Early in your career, you went through a period, like many people do early on, of trying to figure out who you were musically. And before you really figured that out, you sounded very much like you had patterned yourself on Nat Cole and Charles Brown.

[Ray Charles]

That's right.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

What did they both mean to you? Why did you feel so strongly about them?

[Ray Charles]

I just love the way, well, Nat Cole, the reason he was so powerful in my life was the fact that I wanted to do exactly what he was doing. You know, most people think of Nat Cole as a great singer. You know, they know his voice. But I was looking at Nat Cole as a pianist. I mean, he was one of the People don't realize, but Nat Cole was a hell of a pianist. He played some of that tasty stuff behind his singing. And that's what I wanted to do was to be able to play little tasty things behind what I was singing. So I really tried to pattern myself after Nat Cole in the early beginnings of my career.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

And Charles Brown, the rhythm and blues.

[Ray Charles]

And Charles Brown had that real. I don't know how you would call it. He had that. He always sounded like he was pleading, begging, you know, really pleading in his songs, or crying, you know, And I like that he always sounded like he was sincere. Whatever he was saying about, he was genuine. He meant it. That's the way I took Charles Brown. And I liked. Especially when he was singing the blues or something like Merry Christmas, baby, and stuff like that.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Well, I thought we could listen to the very first recording that you made, which is Confession Blues.

[Ray Charles]

Oh, my goodness. Where did you find that?

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Oh, on one of your box sets. It was easy.

[Ray Charles]

Oh, brother. Yeah, that's one of the things where I was. You got me down pat. I was about. I guess I must be about 17 years old at that time when I made that.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

This is 1949. Let's hear it, and then we'll talk about it.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

I want to tell your story.

[Ray Charles]

A baby boy was once in love.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

I want to tell you a story.

[Ray Charles]

A baby boy was watching love.

[Charles Brown]

And.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

How the girl that I loved Robbed me of the happiness I dreamed of she called me fine, sweet and mellow.

[Charles Brown]

But that didn't mean a thing.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

That was Ray Charles first recording made in 1949. How did you start to get a sense of who you were as a singer and start to establish your own sound?

[Ray Charles]

Oh, well, round about 19. Well, you know, I started thinking about it in 1951. Somewhere in there. 1950 or 51. But I was scared to try it because I could get a lot of work sounding like Nat Cole. You know, I could work in nightclubs and I could make a living with his sound. I could take the amplifier and tune it and add a little bass and a little bit of treble or something like that to it and sound pretty close, almost just like it, you know. But then I. I knew. I woke up one morning and I started to think. I said to myself, you know, nobody knows my name. Everybody said to me, hey, kid. Hey, kid. You sound just like Natco. Hey, kid. It was always, hey, kid. Nobody never said ray. Never, never, never. So I started telling myself, you know, your mom always told you to be yourself, and you got to be yourself. If you're going to make it in this business. You got to. I know you love Nat Cole, but you got to stop that.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Well, I want to play you're Cheating Heart, which is a real standard of country music. And I think this is just a really wonderful example of you doing a song your way.

[Terry Gross]

I mean.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

You might even be using different chords on here than the chords that were written.

[Ray Charles]

That's right. Well, that's what makes it become me.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

And the singing, too, of course.

[Ray Charles]

Well, thank you, ma'. Am.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

But would you say A little bit about what you did with this song to make it your own.

[Ray Charles]

Well, it's like any song that I'm going to do, I first sing it to myself and see if I can genuinely feel it, you know, any song. I'm that way about all music, all songs I do, I sit there. And maybe sometimes I may sit at the keyboard and fool around with the chords and see if I can find a way to sing it where it makes me feel good inside. And sometimes I can run into songs that are good songs, but I can't make it do anything for me. But the song is a great song, you know, to give you for an example. Like, I've always loved Stardust, a beautiful song, but I never could quite get it to sound like I wanted it to, for me. So, you know, it's really a true feeling, what you feel inside, you know, where you can put yourself into it. Can you really feel what you're doing? And that's important to me, to feel what I'm doing.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Okay, now, Stardust, you had a huge hit with Hoagy Carmichaels, Georgia.

[Ray Charles]

That's right.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

How come Stardust doesn't work for you?

[Ray Charles]

Well, I just could never get into it. I mean, Georgia was something I used to harm. Georgia. As a matter of fact, my chauffeur said to me one day, he said, you know, Mr. Charles, you always humming that song. George, you're always humming it all the time. Why don't you record it? Well, I had never thought about recording. I just liked the song, you know. But it was a chord structure in Georgia. I mean, especially in the middle part of it. It's got some beautiful changes to it. Hoka Kai, Michael, I have to give him some skin. He wrote some beautiful stuff on that song.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Okay, well, I had you describe your version of your Cheatin Heart. And we haven't played that yet, so let me give that a spin. Now, this is the Hank Williams song youg're Cheating Heart, performed by Ray Charles. And this is from the early 1960s, one of the recordings included on the new Ray Charles Bach set, the Complete country and Western Recordings, 1959-1986. Here it is.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

Your cheat will make you weep. You cry and cry and try to sleep. But sleep won't come the whole night through. You're cheating on.

[Ray Charles]

Will tell on you.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

When tears come down my falling rain.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

That's Ray Charles, one of his recordings included on his new box set, the Complete country and Western Recordings, 1959-1986. Now, it's funny, you Know, when I was young, some of your country songs were really big hits. You know, like Born to Lose and you'd Don't Know Me and Cry In Time. I didn't think of them as country songs. I thought of them as Ray Charles records.

[Ray Charles]

You're very sweet, honey. Thank you, Terry.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I didn't find out till much later they were country songs.

[Ray Charles]

Well, actually, what it is. I'll tell you something. And which I think would be helpful to the people, to our listeners. You see, I am not a country singer. I'm not a jazz singer. I am not a blues singer. What I am is I am a singer that can sing country music. I can sing the blues, I can sing a love song, but I'm not a specialist. You know what I mean? I'm kind of like a baseball player. You know, I can play a little first bass, second base, shortstop and third bass. I might catch and pitch a little bit for you if you need me to. I'm sort of like that in the music world as opposed to being, say, a specialist. Like you would say, B.B. king is a blues singer.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Right.

[Ray Charles]

There's no question about. But I'm not a blues singer. I'm a singer that can sing the blues.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Now, your biography back from, I think, 1978 begins. Let me say right here and now that I am a country boy and man, I mean, the real backwoods. Tell us a little bit about where.

[Terry Gross]

You grew up in the country.

[Ray Charles]

Oh, well, I'm from a little, small town. Well, actually, I was born in Albany, Georgia, but I don't know anything about it because my. My parents moved to Florida when I was about six months old. So, you know, I wouldn't remember anything. So I was raised in a little village, I guess you could call it, called Greenville, Florida. It's about 42 miles east of Tallahassee, you know, and it was just a little country town. And we just had, like, a little general store, and there was a post office, and that was a bus stop, not a bus station, but, you know, where you sit on the bench and wait for the bus, and that was about it. And everybody knew everybody. And of course, I say the bulk of the people were people that were more or less poor. So if Ms. Jones needed some sugar, she would borrow it from my mom. And if my mom needed some flour, she would borrow it from Ms. Williams or whatever. I mean, that's the way we got along.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

And what did you hear on the radio then?

[Ray Charles]

Well, basically, in the daytime, you heard country music on the radio. I mean, that was it all day long? It was country music all over the dial. And at night you could hear things like Benny Goodman or Tom and Aussie or Count Basie, because they would have in those days they had programs that were live, that was coming from some of the various hotels and nightclubs. And so you could hear various bands at night and daytime. You heard strictly their country music. And of course, being in a black neighborhood, naturally I heard the blues. I mean, that's where the blues was. And of course the religion thing because, you know, you went to revival meetings and Bypu and I went to Sunday school and church on Sunday morning and Sunday evenings. And so, you know, that was the mixture that I grew up in.

[Terry Gross]

Ray Charles recorded in 1998. We'll hear more of our conversation and after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH.

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[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I know a lot of African American musicians grew up listening to country music on the radio in the south because that's what was on the radio.

[Ray Charles]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Then I'm wondering if you ever felt any more distance from that music because the performers were white and you were African American.

[Terry Gross]

Did that matter to you at all?

[Ray Charles]

No. No. You know, that is the marvelous thing about music. It is the one thing that I won't say there was no segregation or anything. I'm not saying that. But it was very, very small. I mean, if you look around, you saw guys like Benny Goodman. I mean, there was Lionel Hampton in his band, you know, various white bands. There were black people in the Bands. And when I was coming up, I even worked with a hillbilly group in Florida called the Hillbilly Playboy. The Florida Playboys. And it was a hillbilly group. They taught me how to yodel.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Yeah, no. Could you yodel for us?

[Ray Charles]

Yodel?

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

Eee.

[Ray Charles]

I mean, I'm a lot better than that, but that's the idea. Yodel. My voice is too early in the morning, but you get the idea.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

You know, I have to say, that is not unlike some of the things that you do on your soul records. No, really.

[Ray Charles]

Okay. I truly enjoy the various forms of music, and it really. It keeps me going.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Now we're recording from your studio. Do you have to get your phone?

[Ray Charles]

No, no, no, no, no. Unfortunately, the switchboard kind of goofed and let it ring back here. You know, they must have about seven, eight lines, and they let the wrong line ring. Mistake.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Did you think I was nuts when I said that about yodeling sounding not unlike some of the things you do on your solo records?

[Ray Charles]

No, no, no, no, no. I heard every word of a girl. Every. Dear.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I want to play another personal favorite from your country recordings, and this is you don't know me.

[Ray Charles]

Oh, yeah. All right.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Would you tell us about why you chose this song?

[Ray Charles]

Oh, I think again, the songs that I choose, I start with the lyrics. What are the lyrics saying to me? What kind of story are they telling me? You know, it's like. I guess it's like an actor who looks at a script, you know, because, you know, when you look at lyrics, you know, you got to tell a story in three minutes. You know, you don't have two hours like you do when you got a script. You got to say what you got to say and make it believable within three minutes. So I start with the lyrics, you know, and when I start with the lyrics, I tell myself, now, how many people will this song fit? I mean, does it sound like most people can relate to it? And you tell yourself, yeah. Mm. You give your hand to me and then you say, I watch you walk away, you know, if you can see. Or when you hear somebody says, I can't stop loving you, I made up my mind. Just think of the people say that, you know, and so I always start with the lyrics to see, does the lyrics carry any real meaning, not just for me, but for the people who are going to be listening to me.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Well, let's hear you don't know me. And the song was written by Cindy Walker and Eddie Arnold. And this is Ray Charles. 1962 recording of it, now reissued on his CD box set, The Complete country and Western Recordings, 1959-1986.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

You give your hand to me and then you say hello. And I can hardly speak. My heart is beating so. And anyone can tell you think you know me well.

[Ray Charles]

But you don't know me.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

Nor you don't blame. No, you don't know the one who.

[Ray Charles]

Dreams of you at night.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

And longs to kiss your lips and longs to hold you tight. Oh, I'm just a friend. That's all I've ever been.

[Ray Charles]

Cause you don't know me.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

Lord, you don't know me. For I never knew the art of making love. Though my heart aches with love for you.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

As we mentioned, you grew up in the country, and I think it was at about the age of seven that you lost your sight. And you lost it gradually over a period of a couple of years. Did you realize what was happening?

[Ray Charles]

Well, as far as losing my sight, I knew that because my mom was very astute. I mean, I don't know how she managed to come up with the idea. She did, you know, because she didn't have no psychologist to tell her to do this or tell her to do that. But she started. She knew I was going to lose my eyesight, and so since she knew I was going to lose my eyesight, she started showing me how to get around and how to do things without seeing. Like, she would tell me, okay, I'm going to show you where this chair is. Okay? Now, since you can't see that chair, you're going to have to teach yourself to remember that that chair is there. Or you got to teach yourself to remember that that table is there. Or you got to teach yourself to remember to turn right when you get to da, da, da, da. And of course, she started with that with me when I started to lose my eyesight. So I gained an awful lot. And of course, being that age, it wasn't as much of a shock as, say, it would be if I was, say, losing my sight at the age of 30 or 40 or something. Where you've seen all your life.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Did you go through a long period of depression afterwards?

[Ray Charles]

No, because by the time I started losing my sight, for sure, I was going to a school for the deaf and the blind. And, you know, children, you know, I'm sure you're aware of this, but children can be very brutal. I mean, to each other.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Yeah. No kidding. Yeah.

[Ray Charles]

You know what I mean? And so if you go in there, like when I first went there, I was very homesick and I was crying and you know, what you go through. Because where I went to school was about 130 or 40 miles from where I live, you know. So there was a state school for the blind and deaf, as I say. So I was crying and missing my mom and all. And see, kids would pick instead of empathize, sympathize with you. They would pick on you and make you feel bad, you know, so they'll get you out of that kind of groove.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Was it at the boarding school for children who were blind and deaf that you first learned to play music?

[Ray Charles]

Exactly. Yeah, I started. I couldn't get into music class the first year I was in school because the class was full. So I mean, I couldn't get into piano class. So I started taking up clarinet. That's why I can play clarinet and saxophone.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

So you played clarinet first?

[Ray Charles]

Oh, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

How'd you like the instrument?

[Ray Charles]

I loved it. Well, I was a great fan of Artie Shaw. I used to love him. Everybody was talking about Benny Goodman, but I was an ARTIE SHAW Man, 100%. And I was very impressed by what he could do with a clarinet. And naturally he was my mentor. I wanted to play, but obviously I wanted to be in the piano class. But since I couldn't, I figured, well, okay, I'll do play clarinet. And I did that. But the next year I was able to get into the piano class.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Did you give up clarinet?

[Ray Charles]

No, I studied both. I kept studying both instruments, but naturally my heart was with the keyboard because, I mean, that's just because there's so much you can do when you play piano. By the time I was 12 years old or 13 years old, I could write a whole arrangement for a 17 piece band. See, that's the great thing. If you study piano, it gives you a whole outlook on a lot of different things that has to do with music.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Now, what kind of music were you playing in school?

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

Oh, well, we would.

[Ray Charles]

They had like little, small, cute little songs from Chopin that we would play or Beethoven or something like that. Not the symphonies, but the little small vignettes or whatever you call those little things that you do, you know, and. And of course, when I would write something, I would write some kind of current song that was being played on the radio. I was just writing arrangements for the band to play it. And I tell you, that's why I don't write a score today, because I started out writing the parts first. Most times what arrangers do. I'm sure you know this. I'm just saying, for the sake of the audience, arrangers write a score first, and then when they write the score, they write the parts. Well, I wanted to hear the music so bad, I'd write the parts first and write the score afterwards. It's kind of backwards. Right.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Well, you know, I interviewed Hank Crawford, who played in your band.

[Ray Charles]

Yes. He was my copper for a lot of years.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Yeah. Yeah. And he was your music director for a while.

[Ray Charles]

That's right.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

And he said that when you did an arrangement, what you would do would be to call out the notes.

[Ray Charles]

That's right. He told you, right? That's right.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Yeah. And I thought that was so strange. I figured. Oh, you'd sing the part for the person who was transcribing.

[Ray Charles]

No, no, no, no. I would literally tell him what note to write down. If I tell him the notes, I don't have to worry about whether I'm singing it in or out of tune, do I?

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Well, that's a good point. Right.

[Ray Charles]

All right. If I tell him the notes, it can't be no mistake. You see what I mean?

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Yeah.

[Ray Charles]

I don't want to hum it. I wanted to because I know how to tell him technically, all he gotta do is write what I tell him. That way it can't be no mistake. Cause if I hum it to him, I might not hum it just right, or he may not hear it right or hear what I'm saying. But if I say it's C sharp, C sharp is C sharp all over the world.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Now, how old were you when you left school and set off on your own?

[Ray Charles]

I was about 15 when my mom died, so I left school that year.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

And what was it like for you to first be on your own like that?

[Ray Charles]

Oh, it was tough. But I was lucky. I mean, I was lucky because my mom had a friend that lived in Jacksonville, which, as I said, was about 100 and some odd miles from Greenville. And my mom had always talked to me about her and told me that if I ever needed someone to talk to, this lady and her were very good friends. And so when my mom passed away, I fooled around for a little while in Greenville and Tallahassee. And then I decided I would go to Jacksonville because Jacksonville was a city and I wanted to see if I could get started in music and do something. So I went there, and this lady's name was Lena Mae Thompson. And her and her husband, Fred Thompson, they took me in and treated me just like I was their own kid. They fed me because I sure didn't have no money. Didn't have nothing. They bought me clothes. I mean, I was lucky, you know. And when I would get a job, maybe once or twice a week or something like that, I'd give them the money, you know, Because, I mean, it wasn't that much money involved in the first place. And I know they spent way more money than I was able to give them back.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Now, what were the early kinds of places you performed in?

[Ray Charles]

Oh, they were like places one way in and one way out. You know what I mean? They were places like. Where they. Like dance halls and they would. And a lot of them would sell beer and they'd sell fish and chicken and stuff like that. But like I said, it was one way in, one way out. So if a fight broke out, you know, it was kind of rough. Those are the days. I have to say that they were good experiences, but I would not like to do them again, you know, because, like I said, we were playing dances in those days, and of course, anything could happen.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Is there a record that you think of as being the first recording that you made as yourself really establishing yourself?

[Ray Charles]

Probably. I Got A Woman. I mean, that was it. Because when I did that, that seemed to upset a lot of people, but it was really me.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

It upset a lot of people.

[Ray Charles]

Oh, yeah. A lot of people thought that it was too religious and I was bastardizing the church and, oh, man, I got all kinds of criticism.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

You mean you were using too much of a sanctified sound for a sexual record?

[Ray Charles]

Yeah, that's right. But it was really me. It was 100% me. And of course, I just said, well, I have to be criticized because I'm going to sing the way I sing. And later on, after some other people start doing it, then they start calling it soul music. It just goes to show you, I guess I was a little ahead of my time or something.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Well, I think that's inarguable. Why don't we hear I Got A Woman? And this is my guest, Ray Charles.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

Well, I got a woman Way over town that's good to me oh, yeah say I got a woman Way over town Good to me oh, yeah she give me money when I'm in need yeah She's a kind of friend indeed I got a woman Where Town that's good to me oh, yeah she says, I love it early in the morning Just for me oh, yeah she says.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I love it that's Ray Charles. The recording that he said was the first one that really sounded like his own style. I'd like to end our interview by asking you to choose a favorite, if you have one from the new country music box set.

[Ray Charles]

There's a big selection there, but yeah, that's true. And it would be very hard to find what I call a favorite. But I can tell you one of the songs that I really, really love. There's an old Johnny Cash thing that I did on there called Ring of Fire, but I got it from Johnny Cash. I think it'd be real nice to play that. Ring of Fire.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

I love that song. And it was written by his wife June.

[Ray Charles]

Oh, really? I didn't know that.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Yeah.

[Ray Charles]

Oh, no kidding. Oh, well, thank you for telling me that.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

So we'll end with Ring of Fire. Why do you love the song?

[Ray Charles]

Well, just think of the lyrics. Just think of the lyrics. Oh, love is a burning thing, you know. Oh, it talks, babe. It speaks to you. You know, I really didn't know what you just told me, but, boy, I have to say I'm very happy to hear that.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

Well, Ray Charles, it has been so wonderful to talk with you. I really thank you so much for your time.

[Ray Charles]

Well, Terry, it's been good talking to. And I just want you to know, not only is it good to talk to you, but I'm gonna keep on listening to you, too.

[Interviewer (likely Terry Gross)]

It is an honor to hear you say that. Thank you.

[Ray Charles]

I really mean it. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

For love.

[Ray Charles]

For love is a burning thing. Yes, it is and it may, you know, it makes a fiery rain girl.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

You know I'm bound, I'm bound, I'm.

[Ray Charles]

Bound bound by wild desire. That's what you do to me, girl, because I don't feel. I fell into your ring of fire. You got me, baby.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

I fell into a brain rain of fire. I went down, down, down and all the flame went higher and it burns, burns, burns the rain ring of fire.

[Ray Charles]

Your ring of fire.

[Terry Gross]

Ray Charles, recorded in 1998, he died in 2004. Fresh Air Weekend was produced this week by Teresa Madden and Heidi Simond. FRESH air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. This episode's engineer was Adam Stanischewski. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Meyers, Roberto Shurok, Annmarie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly Sivi Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.

[Ray Charles]

That doggone fire went wild that flame.

[Charles Brown]

Went crazy thing.

[Backup Singer / Chorus]

I fell into a pretty ring of fire I went down, down, down and all the flame went.

[Ray Charles]

Higher and it burned.

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