Roots of R&B: 'Stand By Me'

Summary

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Fresh Air Episode Summary

Podcast: Fresh Air (NPR)
Episode: Roots of R&B: 'Stand By Me'
Date: August 29, 2025
Main Guests: Ben E. King (archive, 1988), Jerry Lieber & Mike Stoller (archive, 1991), Jerry Wexler (archive, 1993)
Host(s): Terry Gross, David Bianculli

Overview

This episode is part of Fresh Air's summer series spotlighting pivotal figures in R&B, rockabilly, and rock & roll. Focusing on Ben E. King's musical journey, the episode revisits an intimate 1988 conversation between King and Terry Gross, exploring his Harlem roots, leadership of The Drifters, solo stardom with "Stand By Me," and the creative forces—songwriters and producers—behind his sound. The episode is enriched by classic music clips and further conversations with songwriting/production legends Jerry Lieber & Mike Stoller, and producer Jerry Wexler, each providing their perspective on the era’s music history.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Ben E. King's Early Life and Introduction to Music

• Street Singing in Harlem

  • Born in North Carolina, King was first exposed to “street singing” or doo-wop after his family moved to New York at age 11 ([02:11]).
  • Quote: “I bumped into different little guys singing and doobopping on the stoops... That was, you know, getting me introduced to the females.” — Ben E. King ([03:35])

• Apollo Theater & Group Style

  • Performed on Amateur Night at the Apollo wearing pink jackets, black shirts, and black trousers ([02:48]).
  • “It was a sight to behold there.” — Ben E. King ([02:52])

• The Five Crowns & Vocal Roles

  • Started as a bass singer; “I’m naturally a bass baritone… I can sing bass still” ([03:25]).
  • Bass singers had prestige—especially among girls: “Girls always thought so. Girls like the bass singer... doing the doo doo, wobbadooly...” ([03:35])

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2. Joining & Transforming The Drifters

• Becoming the New Drifters

  • Management crossover: King’s group, The Crowns, absorbed into The Drifters after being spotted at the Apollo ([05:22]).
  • No instructions were given on taking up the Drifters’ mantle: “We weren’t given any warning to what to do, how to act.” ([06:46])
  • Fans were hostile at first: “...the curtain opened—there’s four guys about 17 years old.” ([07:47])

• Transition from Bass to Lead

  • King wrote “There Goes My Baby;” was nudged into lead vocals after the then-lead couldn’t “get the feel” ([08:09]).
  • Quote: “I was trying to show the lyrics to Charlie Thomas… Jerry Wexler came into the control room and said…‘You sing it.’” — Ben E. King ([08:09])
  • “I just went to the mic...and I was stuck with leads since then.” ([08:47])

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3. Musical Hits and Milestones

• Major Drifters Hits

  • “There Goes My Baby,” “Save the Last Dance for Me”—the latter topped both R&B and pop charts, a rare feat for a black artist at the time ([09:04]).
  • “...they weren’t actually playing a lot of black records and...weren’t even thinking about crossing them over.” — Ben E. King ([09:04])

• Performance Style

  • Minimal choreography, “short steps” rather than Temptations-style dance moves ([10:38]).
  • Showmanship: “I did [throw my jacket]. Yeah, those things was great...and throwing your handkerchief away and stuff.” ([11:18])

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4. Transition to Solo Career

• Why King Went Solo

  • Despite massive hits, The Drifters were paid poorly, leading King and others to ask for a raise; King was fired for speaking up ([12:40]).
  • King’s mentor Lover Patterson kept him in the industry: “He was the one still I find very responsible for me still being here now.” ([12:40])

• Recording Process & Industry Practices

  • The lines between solo/Drifter work blurred, as Atlantic would recall King to record with The Drifters, paying him “scale” ([12:40], [15:08]).

• First Solo Hit: “Spanish Harlem”

  • Originally intended as a Drifters’ song, became King’s solo release thanks to persuasion by Lieber and Stoller ([15:11]).

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5. Songwriting, Rights, and “Stand By Me”

• Composing & Credit

  • Liedt & Stoller’s pseudonym “Elmo Glick” appeared on the “Stand By Me” credits, unbeknownst to King for years ([19:27]).
  • King resigned to the unfairness: “We were just kids out of Harlem with no knowledge at all about legalities...I’m only one out of hundreds and thousands of the artists that got. But those things happen too, you know.” ([19:44])

• Emotional Delivery

  • On recording “I Who Have Nothing”: “I just close my eyes and go for it.” — Ben E. King ([16:05])
  • “I listened to myself when I was singing years ago and I prefer my performance much more than I do today...I got very, very involved with the whole feel of the song.” — Ben E. King ([17:57])

• Notable Quote on Success and Luck

  • “A lot of artists were deprived altogether of writing credits, so…I was lucky. I’m one of the lucky ones.” — Ben E. King ([20:11])

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6. Perspectives from Jerry Lieber & Mike Stoller

• Writing for R&B and Pop

  • Praised for their wit, insight, and ability to cross cultural boundaries.
  • “We didn’t think of them as novelties. We thought of dark dramas.” — Mike Stoller ([29:41])
  • “I was banging on the roof of the car, and I was trying to come up with something nasty...‘You ain’t nothing but a hound dog’.” — Jerry Lieber, on “Hound Dog” ([27:43], [28:04])

• Producing Innovation

  • On bringing string sections to R&B: “Jerry heard it and he said that sounds like strings. And I said, why not?” — Mike Stoller ([31:52])
  • On introducing Latin rhythms: “That Bayonne rhythm…is responsible for maybe over a thousand hits because this Brazilian rhythm supports a slow ballad without...seeming to be slow or sluggish.” — Jerry Lieber ([33:45])

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7. Jerry Wexler: Creating Great Records

• Producer’s Perspective

  • Matched artists’ authentic sound to commercial success, e.g., Aretha Franklin.
  • “I heard the Aretha Franklin who sang in church… It wasn't so much that I tried a new approach to her. It's that what she did fit very well in with what we were doing anyhow.” — Jerry Wexler ([39:39])

• Recording Techniques

  • Collaborative, spontaneous arrangements in southern studios, as opposed to rigid, written charts ([40:32]).
  • "[Aretha] laid down an organ part and a piano part and then she sang the lead and then she and her sisters got together and did the background. And it was a very full finished record put together. I'd say with spit and chewing gum..." — Jerry Wexler ([41:55])

• Backstage Stories

  • On Drifters’ “Under the Boardwalk,” the sudden death of the lead singer pushed Johnny Moore into the role with no key change ([45:26]).
  • “[Rudy Lewis] was found dead in the hotel room with a hypodermic needle in his arm... We had to use Johnny Moore to sing the lead... in the key that was put to him.” ([45:26])

• Industry Realities

  • On pushing artists and records: “I said, this song has to be done. And I said, you can pick all the rest or else ain't no session.” — Jerry Wexler ([44:38])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ben E. King on being “stuck” with lead singing:
  • “I was stuck with leads since then.” ([08:47])
• On the realities of early R&B stardom:
  • “We were just four or five kids coming out of Harlem from a very, very amateurish background.” ([06:46])
• Lieber & Stoller on songwriting:
  • “We were both trying to imitate Tolstoy and Dickens, and I guess we just fell short of the mark. We wrote novelty songs because we're both essentially gag writers...” — Jerry Lieber ([29:48])
• Wexler on Aretha’s transformation:
  • “What she did fit very well in with what we were doing anyhow.” ([39:39])
• King on learning the truth about “Elmo Glick”:
  • “Those were my ghostwriters and I didn't know it for many, many years.” ([19:44])

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Musical Highlights & Timestamps

• “Stand By Me” by Ben E. King — [00:40], [24:30]
• “There Goes My Baby” by The Drifters — [04:45], replayed at [34:24]
• “Save the Last Dance for Me” by The Drifters — [09:20]
• “Spanish Harlem” by Ben E. King — [11:39]
• “I Who Have Nothing” by Ben E. King — [16:27]
• “Hound Dog” by Big Mama Thornton — [25:59]
• Other Lieber-Stoller classics (clips): “Kansas City,” “Jailhouse Rock,” “On Broadway,” “Love Potion Number Nine,” “Charlie Brown” ([22:36-24:24])
• Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding, Wilson Pickett, The Drifters, Ray Charles (various, [37:35-39:18])

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Episode Structure & Key Timestamps

| Time (MM:SS) | Segment | Description | |--------------|----------------------------------------|-------------------------------------------| | 00:17 | Show introduction | David Bianculli frames the archive focus | | 02:11 | Ben E. King’s early years | Street singing in Harlem | | 05:22 | Transition to the Drifters | King describes how Crowns became Drifters | | 09:20 | “Save the Last Dance for Me” | Song clip, discussion of crossover impact | | 12:40 | King’s solo career & industry issues | Pay, manager conflicts, solo transition | | 15:11 | “Spanish Harlem” and going solo | Song clip, production insight | | 16:27 | “I Who Have Nothing” | Emotional approach to recording | | 19:27 | Songwriting credits & “Stand By Me” | Pen names, legalities | | 25:59 | “Hound Dog” (Big Mama Thornton) | Lieber & Stoller discuss songwriting | | 31:39 | Strings in R&B (“There Goes My Baby”) | Production innovation | | 39:18 | Jerry Wexler on Aretha Franklin | Discovering her true voice | | 44:36 | Drifters’ “Under the Boardwalk” saga | Behind-the-scenes industry story | | 49:24 | Closing remarks/production credits | Look ahead to next episode |

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Themes & Takeaways

• Transformation & Crossover: The journey from street-corner doo-wop to chart-topping hits—especially for black artists overcoming systemic barriers.
• Collaboration & Innovation: The intertwined roles of visionary singers, songwriters, and producers who shaped the era’s sound.
• Industry Hardships: Exploitation, credit confusion, and the struggles musicians faced for fair recognition.
• Enduring Artistry: The emotional connection and creative improvisation central to R&B’s most memorable recordings.

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This episode provides both nostalgia and depth, offering memorable stories directly from the voices that shaped classic R&B and soul. Both new listeners and longtime fans will walk away with a greater understanding of the artistry—and the challenges—behind the hits.

Transcript

[NPR Announcer]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Interested in a quality online education? Capella is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission.

[Ben E. King]

A different future is closer than you think with Capella University.

[NPR Announcer]

Learn more at capella. Edu.

[David Biancolli]

This is FRESH air. I'm David Biancooli. Today we continue our series of R and B, rockabilly and rock and roll interviews from the archives. And we begin with Ben E. King. Ben E. King sang lead with the Drifters before embarking on a solo career. His voice was heard on many classic recordings from the 1950s and 60s. His biggest hit was a song he.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

Wrote, when the night has come and the land is dark and the moon is the only light we'll see. No, I won't be afraid oh, I won't be afraid Just as long as you stand, stand by me. So darling, darling, stand by me. Oh, stand by me. Oh, stand, stand by me. Stand.

[David Biancolli]

Stand By Me made it to number four in the charts in 1961. 25 years later, stand By Me was used as the theme for the film of the same name. The record was re released and landed back in the top 10. Other Ben E. King solo hits included Spanish Harlem, Don't Play that Song, and I who have Nothing. Earlier with the Drifters, he recorded There Goes My Baby, this Magic Moment and and I Count the Tears. He died in 2015 at age 76. Terry Gross spoke with Ben E. King in 1988. Before he ever sang on stage or in the recording studio, he sang with his friends on the streets of Harlem.

[Ben E. King]

I was born in Henderson, North Carolina, so I wasn't familiar with the street singing thing until I came to New York, which I was about 11 years old when my parents first moved to New York. And I heard about it. And then gradually, by being in the streets of Harlem, I walked around and surely enough bumped into different little guys singing and doobopping on the stoops and stuff like that. So I was more or less introduced to it when I first got to New York.

[Terry Gross]

Now you also sang before you started recording. You sang at amateur night at the Apollo Theater in Harlem. Did you all have matching suits in your group?

[Ben E. King]

Yeah, we had. What do we have? We had pink jackets.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, great.

[Ben E. King]

I know, right? That's what I said. Jackets and black shirt and black trousers. I mean, it was a sight to behold there.

[Terry Gross]

Did you save up for the suits?

[Ben E. King]

Yeah, we did. What happened was that our parents gave us some money for it because we were all like in school. So our parents gave us money to go and buy these little uniform Jackets and stuff. And we just found our own black trousers and stuff.

[Terry Gross]

Now, you sang with the Crowns, the Five Crowns. And you sang bass before you. You started singing lead. Can your voice still go that low?

[Ben E. King]

I think so, yeah, it can. I'm naturally a bass baritone, so I can't sing bass still, I think, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

Did it have a certain prestige to be the bass man in a vocal group?

[Ben E. King]

Well, girls always thought so. Girls like the bass singer, I guess, because they have that more mature depth to his voice. And at that time, you have to realize that most of the bass things were done in the doo wop groups and stuff like that was the featured thing in the song, you know, so the bass singer was the one that was doing the doo doo, wobbadooly, wabadooly wobble doo doo, all that stuff. See, so you couldn't go wrong with that. I had the chance to do all those things, and the girls was just standing around and giggling stuff. So I think that that was, you know, getting me introduced to the females.

[Terry Gross]

There you went from bass singer with the Crowns to lead singer with the Drifters.

[Ben E. King]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

And before I ask you to tell us a story about how the Crowns became the new Drifters and how you got to sing lead, I want to play the first song that you record singing lead as the lead singer of the Drifters. And this is. This is. There goes my baby.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

Down the line Wonder where Wonder well wonder where she bound I broke her heart and made her cry Now I'm alone so all alone what can I do? What can I do? There go my baby.

[Terry Gross]

That'S Benny King singing lead with the Drifters on There Goes My Baby. So tell us how the Crowns, who you sang with became the Drifters.

[Ben E. King]

Well, that's one of those strange stories, really. I joined the Crowns because the guy that was managing them by the name of Lover Patterson, lived across the street from my father's restaurant. So he came in one day and asked me to join the Crowns. He brought him into the store and we rehearsed in the back of my father's restaurant. And I became a member of. And the Crowns were, I would imagine, a very good, like, vocal type group, semi pro. And we opened up at the Apollo with Ray Charles and I think it was Faye Adams on the bill. And of course, the Drifters were on the bill as well. And we were the opening act. During that week, we were approached by their manager, Josh Treadwell, and he had mentioned to us that he had been watching us and he thought we were a very good Group and would we be interested in becoming a new set of Drifters?

[Terry Gross]

He had just, what, fired Clyde McPhatter, who had been the lead singer.

[Ben E. King]

Yeah, well, what had happened in that? I think Clyde really wasn't in the group at that time. Clyde had more or less gone solo, but the other members were in the group, and he had, I guess, had problems with the group or the group had problems with him. And they decided to just split company, and they did. So, you know.

[Terry Gross]

Right. So Clyde McPhatter had left the group, and then the producer fired the rest of the producer fired the rest of the way. It worked, right?

[Ben E. King]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

And when the producer decided that your group would be the next Drifters, did they do anything different with you or tell you to do anything different for you to become Drifters?

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

Not really.

[Ben E. King]

I think that was the strange thing about the whole situation, is that when we became the new set of Drifters, there weren't any instructions at all given to us. You know, we used to go on the road as the new set of Drifters before the record was released and we were booed off the stage and we had bottles thrown at us and chairs in the whole nine yards. So we weren't given any warning to what to do, how to act. We got Unifor. I think we got a new station wagon or something like that. But that's the only thing that we received as far as becoming a new set of Drifters, as well as the fact that we had to fulfill the Drifters recording contracts. And we weren't aware of that. We were just four or five kids coming out of Harlem from a very, very amateurish background. Even during the time with the Five Crowns, we were just more or less, as I said before, semi pro. So we didn't know about all the particulars that professionals would go through to more or make a living in the business.

[Terry Gross]

You got booed because the fans were expecting the other Drifters, and here you were with no explanation.

[Ben E. King]

That's right. Exactly. Well, it's like. It's like going to see the Four. I always say it's like going to see the Four Tops, and all of a sudden the curtain open. There's four guys about 17 years old. That's the kind of thing that you would face.

[Terry Gross]

Now, when you were telling us about the Crowns, you had sung bass with the Crowns, but you ended up singing lead when the Crowns became the Drifters, how did you get to sing lead?

[Ben E. King]

I wrote the song There Goes My Baby while we was on the road. And when I got back to New York. I showed it to Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoler, who produced the date. And while we were in the studio, I was trying to show the lyrics to Charlie Thomas, who was the lead and did all the tennis to the songs. And for some strange reason, he couldn't get the feel of the song. And Jerry Wexler, who was involved with the date as well, came into the control room and said, look, Charlie's having trouble with this song. You sing it. And I just went to the mic I had the advantage over because I had written the song anyway. So I went to the microphone and started singing. And I was stuck with leads since then.

[Terry Gross]

Stuck, huh?

[Ben E. King]

Yes, stuck. Right.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I want to play another song that you recorded with the Drifters. And this is Save the Last Dance For Me. Of course. You're singing lead on it. This is a song that made it to number one, both on the R and B charts and on the pop charts, which was pretty big deal, right?

[Ben E. King]

No, that was a great deal during that time. Because during that time, you have to allow for the fact that they weren't actually playing a lot of black records and not all. Weren't they playing a lot of them? They weren't even thinking about crossing them over.

[Terry Gross]

Mm.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

You can dance every dance with the guy who gives you the eye Let him hold you tight. You can smile every smile for the man who held your hand Neath the pale moonlight. But don't forget who's takin you home and in whose arms you're gonna be so darling save the last dance for me. Oh, I know oh, I know that the music's fine like sparkling wine Go and have your fun oh, I know Laugh and sing but while we're apart don't give your heart to anyone. But don't forget who's taking you home and in whose arms you're gonna.

[NPR Announcer]

Darling.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

Say the last dance for me Baby, don't you know I love you so.

[Ben E. King]

Can'T you feel it when we touch?

[Terry Gross]

Well, that still. Still sounds very terrific.

[Ben E. King]

Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

I never got to see the Drifters perform in the early 60s. And I was wondering. We were talking a little bit earlier about choreography. Did you have a lot of choreography in your eye?

[Ben E. King]

Not. Not a lot. We did. There are steps that I call short steps. And short steps are done by groups like Platters and Drifters. And then the fast, wide steps are done like Gladys Knight and the Pips and Temptations through Wide and Fast. And there was the Olympics, a group called the Olympics. They do fast movements and fast steps. We do little short, cute things. Things that don't require a lot of sweating and falling down. I'd never learned how to do the split. Stuff like that. I left all that stuff out. I don't know that. I don't know nothing about doing the split. I could never get into that.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, you never took off your jacket and threw it into the audience.

[Ben E. King]

I did that. Did you? Yeah, I did that. Yeah, those things was great. That was easy, you know, and throwing your handkerchief away and stuff. I did those brave things, you know.

[Terry Gross]

I used to love that at the rock and roll show before. I always did that.

[Ben E. King]

A lot of fun.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. You know what I'd like to do? I want to ask you about how you started to perform solo. So why don't I play some of the record that launched your solo career?

[Ben E. King]

Okay.

[Terry Gross]

And this is Spanish Harlem.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

There is a rose in Spanish Hollow A red rose up in Spanish Hollow it is a special one it's never seen the sun it only comes out when the moon is on the run and all the stars are green it's growing in the street Right up through the concrete but soft and sweet and.

[NPR Announcer]

Greening.

[Terry Gross]

Benny King, would you explain how you left the Drifters and started singing solo?

[Ben E. King]

Well, once we got involved with all the recordings and we had all the hit records that we had, once we started with the Drifters situation, we were on salary as the new set of Drifters. And we were making, like, maybe $100 a week or somewhere in the neighborhood. And we were all more or less trying to make ends meet because that hundred dollars would have to keep us alive on the road. And, of course, tried to send some money home. So, in other words, to make a long story short, we had managerial problems. And I, along with Charlie Thomas, Dot Greene, and Ellsberry Harp, we had discussed trying to go to George Treadwell and ask for a raise. And this is a group with a number one record. And once we got to the office, we had set up a meeting. We got to the office to discuss this problem that we were having as far as salary. He told me, instead of me standing up to speak for the group, to speak for yourself. And I did so. And he fired me. He was great at firing people. And I walked out of the office assuming that the other guys would follow, and they didn't. The only guy that followed me was the same one that came across the street to my father's restaurant and convinced me to join the Five Crowns, who was Lover Patterson. And it was his determination and his, I guess, feeling that I had something in my voice that he insisted that I stayed in the business. And he. He was the one still I find very responsible for me still being here now. I hold him very near and dear. He's long passed away for many years now. But to answer your story, he's the reason why I more or less stayed and started a solo career. The first record that you just played recently was Spanish Harlem, was originally supposed had been a Drifter record. And although I was out of the group Atlantic, which a lot of companies at that time was doing that, they would call the lead singer back in the group and pay him scale just to keep the sound in the group. So they were doing that to me as well. That's why if you look at my recording world, the things that go on with me as far as a recording artist, you'll find that I left the group in 1960, but yet and still I recorded a record with the group in 1962. And yet and still I had my own solo career started in 1961. It's very crazy, all that. That's because Atlantic would ask me to come back and to do some Drifter recordings and just pay me scale.

[Terry Gross]

But did you think of Spanish Harlem as a solo record or a drifter record?

[Ben E. King]

No, no, no, no. Get back to that problem. What happened that it should have been a Drifter record? Jerry Lieberman, Mike Stoler, who at that time we had developed a very strong friendship as writers and producers and friends. And they're the ones that went to Atlantic and spoke to Ahmed Erdogan and asked him would he consider a Spanish Harlem being a Benny King record opposed to a Drifted record. And that's how I started a solo career with that record there. Really?

[Terry Gross]

I want to play one of your solo records that I think is one of the most dramatic sounding pop songs I know. And this is I who have Nothing. And this is really high drama. I love this. As everyone will hear, there are great pauses in this record and when you come on, there's like timpani behind you. Were the pauses written in? Did you decide how long to pause? Did you know that timpani was going to come in with you?

[Ben E. King]

Some of the things I would rehearse with Jerry Leibe and Mike Stoler, but that was just three guys around a piano. So most of the performing things that was done on the records was just the way I felt at that time. I'm not one of those regimented type recording persons where I know exactly what to do at each particular time in a song. I just Close my eyes and go for it.

[Terry Gross]

Let's hear it. This is Benny King singing I who have nothing I.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

I who have nothing.

[Terry Gross]

I.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

I who am no one Adore you and want your soul I'm just a no one with nothing to give you but oh, I love you.

[Terry Gross]

He.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

He buys you diamonds Bright sparkling diamonds but believe me, dear what I say that he can give you the world but he'll never love you I love you.

[Terry Gross]

It breaks me up every time I hear that. Were you as emotionally involved in that recording as you sound?

[Ben E. King]

Yes. I think what happened in that is that my manager and I. To make a long story short, my manager and I at the time, his name was Al Wild, we were traveling over to Europe to get myself established over in the European market. And we got up one night while we were in Rome and he had found this songwriter and we went by this office and this guy, he was Italian, of course, and he was speaking in Italian. He was playing Italian songs. But he played this one particular song. And my manager and I picked it up right then and there and said, this is a hit record. The guy who was singing in Italian had the same kind of deliverance and the same kind of feeling about the song. I didn't know what the words were saying, but I know the feeling was great. When I got home and we showed it to Jerry Lieber and Mike Stolen, they wrote the English lyrics to it. We knew that the song was great. I think that during that time when I was singing songs, I got very, very involved with the whole feel of the song. It's amazing when you grow older, your attitude changes and you tend to not be as involved in and not as you don't throw your whole self into songs. I listened to myself when I was singing years ago and I prefer my performance much more than I do today. And I did that with a feeling when I was doing I who have Nothing. I tried to at that time compliment a song as a songwriter would have meant it to be.

[Terry Gross]

Now you also recorded Stand By Me as a solo record. Now you wrote that record.

[Ben E. King]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

You wrote. And someone named Elmo Glick gets. Elmo Glick gets co writing credits. Did he co write it with you or was that songwriter.

[Ben E. King]

Elmo Glick was a song silent partner for years. Elmo Glick is the pen name. I found this out maybe four or five years ago of Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoler.

[Terry Gross]

Oh no.

[Ben E. King]

Those were my ghostwriters and I didn't know it for many, many years. So just go to show you right but as I said earlier, you know, we were just kids out of Harlem with no knowledge at all about legalities and what should happen and what shouldn't happen in this business. And I'm only one out of hundreds and thousands of the artists that got. But those things happen too, you know.

[Terry Gross]

So well, A lot of artists were deprived altogether of writing credits, so.

[Ben E. King]

Oh, gotcha.

[Terry Gross]

So I guess in some respects it was.

[Ben E. King]

I was lucky. I'm one of the lucky ones.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah.

[Ben E. King]

I'm one of the lucky ones.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I love your singing and I thank you so very much for talking with us.

[Ben E. King]

Thank you.

[David Biancolli]

Tay Ben E. King speaking to Terry Gross in 1988. After a break, we hear from more music making legends, songwriters Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoller and record producer Jerry Wexler. I'm David Biancooley and this is FRESH air.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

Every time I kiss somebody new I make believe I'm kissing you But I can't kid making heart Cause of my heart knows we're still apart and.

[Ben E. King]

Each.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

Night is like a thousand years. Oh, I can't lose this young boy blue I want to cry when I hear your name.

[Terry Gross]

This message comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no.

[David Biancolli]

Fees or minimums on checking accounts.

[Ben E. King]

What's in your wallet?

[Terry Gross]

Terms apply? See capitalone.combank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC. If you're a robot, this might not be the show for you. But if you're a human with hopes, dreams and bills to pay, the Life Kit podcast might be just what you need. Three times a week, Life Kit brings you a fresh set of solutions to help you tackle topics big and small, from how to save money on groceries to how to bring the house down at karaoke. You know, human stuff. Listen to the Life Kit podcast from npr. Presentado por mi Mariel Segarra.

[NPR Announcer]

Jaws has been called the perfect movie, the first blockbuster, the film that changed.

[David Biancolli]

Why we go to the movies.

[Ben E. King]

But what does it still have to.

[David Biancolli]

Say 50 years later? We're bringing fresh eyes to the film.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

Lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll's.

[Ben E. King]

Eyes on Pop Culture Happy Hour.

[NPR Announcer]

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Biancolli]

We continue our R and B, rockabilly and rock and roll series with lyricist Jerry Lieber and composer Mike Stoler, who wrote some of the most memorable rock and roll songs of the 1950s and 60s.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

Going to Kansas City, Kansas City, here I come. I'm going to Kansas City, Kansas City, here I come. They got some crazy little Women there and I'm gonna get me one. Warden threw a party in the county jail. The prison band was there. They began to wail. The band was jumping and the joint began to swing. You should have heard those knocked out jailbirds sing.

[Terry Gross]

Let it rock, everybody let it rock.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

They say the neon lights are bright on Broadway, on Broadway they say there's always magic in the air. I took my troubles down to Madam Ruth. You know that gypsy with a gold cap tooth. She's got a pat on 34 combined. Selling little bottles of love potion number nine. What I say whoa oh, Ruby, Ruby, I want you like a ghost timer gonna haunt you. Ruby, Ruby, Ruby, will you be mine sometime? I'm fee feet five five full full form. I smell smoke in the auditorium. Charlie Brown, Charlie Brown. He's a clown, that Charlie Brown. He's gon get go Just you wait and see.

[NPR Announcer]

Why is everybody always picking on me?

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

When the night has come and the land is dark. And the moon is the only light we'll see. No, I won't be afraid. Oh, I won't be afraid. Just as long as you stand, stand by me so darling, darling, stand by me.

[David Biancolli]

Lieber and Stoller wrote for Elvis Presley, the Coasters, the Drifters, and Ben E. King. They not only wrote songs, they often produced. In fact, Lieber and Stoller were the first rock and roll producers to actually get credit on a record for their work. One of rock's greatest producers, Phil Spector, got his start as one of Lieber and Stoller's assistants. Lieber and Stoller met in LA when Lieber was still in high school, and soon they were writing songs professionally. Lieber was especially known for sassy phrases that captured the vernacular spoken by young people of the day. Jerry Lieber died in 2011 at the age of 78. Terry spoke to Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoler in 1991. They began by listening to the original 1953 version of Hound Dog sung by Big Mama Thornton.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

You ain't nothing but a hound dog. Been snooping around my door. You ain't nothing but a hound. Been snooping around my door. You can wag your tail but I ain't gonna feed you no more. You told me you was high glad but I can see through that. Cause you told me you was hot Glad that I could see through that. And daddy, I know you ain't no real cool cat. You ain't nothing but a hound dog.

[Terry Gross]

Well, Jerry Lieber, Mike Stoller, welcome to Fresh Air.

[Jerry Lieber]

Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

The record We've been listening to Big Mama Thornton's recording of Hound Dog was your first major hit as songwriters and producers. What was it about her that led to this song?

[Jerry Lieber]

Well, Mike and I were invited to Johnny Otis rehearsal studio to listen to and look at some of his artists. Big Mama was one of them, and she was really formidable. She was scary looking. She was big, and she must have weighed about, oh, anywhere from 275 to 350. And she had this really gutty, guttural, growling sound in her voice. And the both of us fell in love with her, and we just loved what she looked like and we loved what she sounded like. She sang Ball and Chain, and we decided to take off that minute and go to Mike's house and try to write something for her.

[Terry Gross]

Well, how did you come up with this song, though?

[Jerry Lieber]

Well, Mike was driving and I was banging on the roof of the car, and I was trying to come up with something nasty that would be at the same time playable, that wouldn't be censored, you know. And the closest I could get to what I was thinking was, you ain't nothing but a hound dog.

[Terry Gross]

So you were thinking four letter word epithet, and you came up with hound dog.

[Jerry Lieber]

Right. Which sort of, you know, made it. It felt right, and it seemed like it would be passable.

[Terry Gross]

Mike, let me ask you how you think Elvis handled the song differently from Big Mama Thornton?

[Mike Stoller]

How he handled it differently? Well, he handled it very differently. He didn't sing it in the same. In the same tradition of blues intonation that Big Mama used. And also the lyrics were considerably different because Big Mama's. The way the song was written for Big Mama is really about a gigolo. It's a woman complaining about a gigolo. And Elvis couldn't sing that song, so he sang a version of it, which I think, as I'm told, he heard from a lounge act in Las Vegas that he heard singing the song in Vegas. Now, I had heard that he knew Big Mama's record and loved it, but it was only after he heard this lounge act do it that it seemed appropriate for a male singer.

[Terry Gross]

A lot of the songs that you wrote over the years were novelty songs. Songs like Charlie Brown, Love Potion Number Nine, Yakety Yak, Poison Ivy. I think I just named all coaster songs here. But how did you get so involved with novelty songs?

[Mike Stoller]

We didn't think of them as novelties. We thought of dark dramas.

[Jerry Lieber]

We were both trying to imitate Tolstoy and Dickens, and I guess we just fell short of the Mark we wrote novelty songs because we're both we're both essentially gag writers, and we like to tell funny stories and anecdotes.

[David Biancolli]

Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoller speaking to Terry Gross in 1991. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

[NPR Announcer]

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[Terry Gross]

Zip sources and methods, the crown jewels of the intelligence community. Shorthand for how do we know what's real? Who told us? If you have those answers, you're on the inside and NPR wants to bring you there. From the Pentagon to the State Department to spy agencies, listen to understand what's really happening and what it means for you. Sources and methods. The new national Security podcast from npr. Immigration raids, masked ICE agents, Operation Patriot. Our podcast Here and Now Anytime is looking at Trump's agenda of mass deportation through the eyes of one state.

[NPR Announcer]

I'm coming to Boston.

[Mike Stoller]

I'm bringing hell with me.

[Terry Gross]

Listen to the podcast here and now anytime from NPR and wbur. One of the things that you are famous for having pioneered was bringing a string section to rock and roll or to rhythm of roll.

[Jerry Lieber]

That was Mike's fault.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Let me ask you, on the Drifter's recording, There Goes My Baby, that's the classic example of you bringing strings on what went through your mind to do it?

[Mike Stoller]

I can tell you exactly what was on my mind. Just the line, the melodic line. And I was playing it. I used to joke about this one because it sounded like Borodin and I sounded like one of the Caucasian melodies.

[Jerry Lieber]

I don't know if you get the pun, but he's been saying this for many years. And I always thought it was funny, the fact that he would use a Caucasian melody on this.

[Mike Stoller]

But Jerry heard it and he said that sounds like strings. And I said, why not? And so why not? We had five violins and one cello, and they were all basically playing in.

[Jerry Lieber]

Unison because Jerry Wexler wouldn't spring for six violins and Tucelli.

[Terry Gross]

Now, another thing that happened on this record was you introduced a Latin rhythm that you used.

[Mike Stoller]

The Bayone rhythm was one that both Jerry and I adored, and we had always looked for a place to use it. We'd used it maybe once before on a early record that was not particularly successful, and we had the opportunity to use it on this record date, and there happened to be a timpani left over from another recording session in the studio, and we used it. Now, the drummer was not a percussionist. He was just a trap drummer. And he didn't know how to use the tuning pedal on the tim, so he played one note throughout the entire thing, which gave it a rather bizarre muddy bottom with all kinds of weird overtones. And it was kind of fascinating, though. And that's where we first had a successful use of that Bayonne rhythm, which, in case anybody's wondering, is boom, boom.

[Jerry Lieber]

Boom, boom, boom, boom, which finally was used, I think, and is responsible for maybe over a thousand hits because this Brazilian rhythm supports a slow ballad without the ballad seeming to be slow or sluggish. It keeps it moving. And everyone from Burt Bachrach to Phil Spector to you name it, have leaned heavily on the support of this rhythm pattern.

[Ben E. King]

Do.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

There go my baby, Moving on down the line. Wonder where, wonder where, Wonder where she is bound. I broke her heart and made her cry. Now I'm alone, so all alone. What can I do? What can I do?

[Terry Gross]

My guests are the songwriting and production team of Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoller. I want to thank you both very much for talking with us.

[Mike Stoller]

Thanks.

[Jerry Lieber]

Right? Oh, yeah, it was fun.

[David Biancolli]

Songwriters Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoller speaking with Terry Gross in 1991. Coming up, we conclude this week's R and B, Rockabilly and Rock and Roll series of interviews, which continues through Labor Day with record producer Jerry Wexler. This is FRESH air.

[Terry Gross]

Military commanders, intelligence officials, diplomatic power players. They know things you may not about where the world is headed. And we will pull back the curtain on what they're thinking. On Sources and Methods, NPR's new national security podcast. Our team will help you understand America's shifting role in the world. Listen to Sources and Methods from npr. Life is a mystery for those of.

[NPR Announcer]

Faith or no faith.

[Terry Gross]

Ye Gods with Scott Carter is the podcast that makes sense of how we make sense of life. Each week we talk to celebrities, scholars and mere mortals to unearth what on earth we believe and what we don't.

[Ben E. King]

Listen to.

[Terry Gross]

Ye Gods with Scott Cornell, part of the NPR Network.

[David Biancolli]

Wherever you get your podcasts, do you.

[Terry Gross]

Ever look at political headlines and go, huh? Well, that's exactly why the NPR Politics Podcast exists. We're experts not just on politics, but in making politics make sense. Every episode, we decode everything that happened in Washington and help you figure out what it all means. Give politics a chance with the NPR Politics Podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Biancolli]

We've got one more in today's lineup of R B, rockabilly and rock and roll interviews, some of the greatest soul and rhythm and blues recordings wouldn't have been made if not for Jerry Wexler. Wexler was a partner in Atlantic Records from the early 1950s through the mid-1970s. His specialty was finding great singers and matching them with the right band and backup singers to create a sound that was both artistically true and commercially successful. The short list of people with whom he's worked includes the Drifters, Ray Charles, Aretha Franklin, Bob Dylan, Wilson Pickett, Otis Redding and Solomon Burke. Terry spoke with Jerry Wexler live from the Public Radio conference in Washington, D.C. in 1993. He died in 2008 at the age of 91. Here are just a few of the records for which we have Jerry Wexler.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

To thank I've been loving you too long to stop now you see the girl with the diamond ring she knows how to shake that thing all right now God hey, hey, hey, hey.

[Terry Gross]

I'm.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

Going to wait till the midnight hour that's when my love comes tumbling down. I'm going to wait till the midnight hour when there's no one else around I never Boys walk out of the sun under the board we'll be having some fun under the board People walking.

[Ben E. King]

Above under the.

[Song Lyrics / Singers]

What you want Baby, I got it what you need do you know I got it, too All I'm asking is for a little respect when you come home Just a little bit. Mr. Just a little bit I ain't gonna do you wrong why you gone?

[Terry Gross]

I want to get started with your work with the Aretha Franklin. I think that's a good place to start. Now, she had made about, oh, I don't know, 10 or so recordings on Columbia Records before coming to Atlantic. John Hammond produced her, and he was producing her like a jazz singer kind of in the Dinah Washington tradition. You, when she came to Atlantic, you worked with her. You heard something completely different. What did you hear when you started producing her?

[NPR Announcer]

Well, I heard the Aretha Franklin who sang in church, who sang Precious Lord when she was 13 years old. And a man in the audience was so overcome, he said, listen at her, listen at her. And I listened. And it Wasn't so much that I tried a new approach to her. It's that what she did fit very well in with what we were doing anyhow.

[Terry Gross]

Well, you sat her down at the piano, you had her play herself, which I don't think she'd done on the.

[NPR Announcer]

Records before that, not very much.

[Terry Gross]

And then you took her down to Mussel Shoals, to Alabama, to the same place actually that Arthur Alexander started.

[NPR Announcer]

Exactly. I want you to know that I'm not one of the people who didn't pay him.

[Terry Gross]

What was it like at Muscle Shoals? What did you hear there in that Southern sound that you wanted?

[NPR Announcer]

Well, it was the way they recorded, which was ad lib recording without written arrangements, building the song from the get go, just from the chords. And the musicians made a fabulous contribution. So these were arrangements which we all did together. And they were just as much arrangements as anything that was ever done by Henry Mancini in the sense of being an arranged piece of music.

[Terry Gross]

So you took Aretha down to Muscle Shoals, recorded like a track and a half with her, and there was this really big fight. What was the fight about?

[NPR Announcer]

There was an explosion that went on because of too much Jack Daniels and not enough Prudence. And it had to do with Ted White, who was Aretha's husband at the time, who got into a dangerous over friendly drinking from the same jug with a gentleman who can best be described as a card carrying redneck trumpet player. And it got into what we called the dozens, the Southern dozens. And then it got nasty and the session blew up. And we went back to New York with one song complete, which was I Never Loved a Man and a three piece track on the other side, which was Do Right Woman. And all we had there was rhythm guitar, bass and drums, which is not a whole lot to go on.

[Terry Gross]

Not even vocal?

[NPR Announcer]

No vocal, no piano, no background vocal. And then we finished by bringing Aretha and her sisters into the studio. And it was a pretty good piece of extemporization in that starting with this very minimal track. Aretha laid down an organ part and a piano part and then she sang the lead and then she and her sisters got together and did the background. And it was a very full finished record put together. I'd say with spit and chewing gum, you produced Respect.

[Terry Gross]

Is there a story behind how the Sakatumis landed on there?

[NPR Announcer]

Well, the story is that when Otis Redding did was entirely a different song. The Sakatumes were Aretha Franklin's idea, where she injected into the song, which connoted a Certain idea of social respect, probably the notion of ethnic respect, combined with a little judicious lubricity on her part. The respect that she was talking about was what you might very bluntly call proper sexual attention. But it was her transmutation of Otis Redding's Little Southern song. As a matter of fact, I was mixing the record in our studio on Broadway and Otis walked in, he said, that little gal done took my song. But he meant it in a very kindly way because he saw the cash registers ringing.

[Terry Gross]

Now, your first studio was actually the office of Atlantic Records, because when Atlantic was young, you didn't have a studio. So what'd you do? You'd move out the chairs into the hallway whenever you want to record.

[NPR Announcer]

Well, we did have a studio. It was our office. And it was a studio because we had equipment in it. And my partner Ahmed Ertekin and I shared this big room. We had two desks that were cattycorn and cantered toward each other. And what we would do is push them against the wall, stack them, and then our engineer, Tom Dowd would set out camp chairs, a few microphones, and one mic in the hall for echo.

[Terry Gross]

We're just going to adjust your mic a little bit there. There's. There's so much that a record producer is up against, often the real unexpected. And I think a great example of that is when you were producing the Drifters version of under the Boardwalk. Let's start with the beginning of that story. First of all, they didn't want to even record the song.

[NPR Announcer]

That's right.

[Terry Gross]

You gave them an ultimatum.

[NPR Announcer]

Right. I was not the line producer of that song. I was acting as a supervisor, as an executive of the company. And the Drifters were always a concern of mine. And a great producer, deceased Burt Burns, was producing the record. And neither he nor any of the Drifters could stand the song. They just couldn't buy it. And I didn't want to interfere because Bert was the producer. But this sounds like very self congratulatory. And I said, this song has to be done. And I said, you can pick all the rest or else ain't no session.

[Terry Gross]

Why did you like the song so much?

[NPR Announcer]

Because it sounded like a hit.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, good. Good enough reason. Okay, so what happened to the lead singer night before the session?

[NPR Announcer]

The lead singer at the time was a man named Rudy Lewis. You know, we had three fantastic lead singers in the Drifters. The first was Clyde McFadder. The second was Rudy Lewis. His name is not as well known, but he did some great songs and the third was Benny King, who was having a great resurgence, would stand by me. I mean, you can't turn around without hearing it anymore. But Rudy Lewis, unfortunately, the night before the session, was found dead in the hotel room with a hypodermic needle in his arm. And the. I think that was the. Yeah, the night before the session. And we tried to call off the session, but it was a big date and we had hired a lot of union musicians, and the union wasn't cutting us any slack at all. They gave us 24 hours. So we moved the session ahead one more day. But then we couldn't even change the charts, so we had to use Johnny Moore to sing the lead and without even the key change. And he managed to sing it in the key that was put to him. And the interesting thing about the record was we promoted it all along the Eastern seaboard in Atlantic City and so on. And it just. It evokes summer all the time.

[Terry Gross]

And you actually did a lot of that yourself, didn't you? Packed up the car and drove around promoting the record because you wanted it to break so bad.

[NPR Announcer]

That's right. And we did a lot of that in those days.

[Terry Gross]

You work with Otis Redding a lot during his career.

[NPR Announcer]

I was not Otis's producer. I want you to realize that. Otis was produced at Stax Records in Memphis by that great team of Jim Stewart and Booker T. And the MGs, especially Steve Cropper.

[Terry Gross]

Now, you saw him change a lot as he became better known. What was he like in the beginning, before he. He was very famous. What was it?

[NPR Announcer]

Otis was very simple, very unaffected, but he had the magic. And when he came to New York after his first hit record, I picked him up the airport. No roadies, nobody, no nothing. Just. Just Sol Otis. And he opened at the Apollo. And he just stood there, just straight on with his arms at his side, didn't move. Another one who started like that was Marvin Gaye, but they learned some stagecraft. But what really kicked Otis into moving was having to follow Sam and Dave, who used to be described as a stage full of Jackie Wilsons.

[Terry Gross]

That's really great. Now, you know, we were talking before how you brought Aretha Franklin down to Muscle Shoals, Alabama, you brought Wilson Pickett down to Memphis. Memphis to record. He really loved that Southern sound that was coming out of some of the bands there. Why did you think of bringing him there?

[NPR Announcer]

Well, because everything was winding down in New York. I mean, it was entropy. We just couldn't get out of our own way. We had been very successful year after year. But our style of recording was regular old time standard style, using arrangers with written arrangements. Now, when you have to change an arrangement and you almost always do to accommodate the vicissitudes of the song and where you're going, it's total agony for the entrepreneur to see that clock going around while a man is going around with an eraser erasing little notes on 13 charts. And this Southern style of recording where it's just all you have is chord indications. You go out, you sing a lick, do it like this, fellas. Bang. Here's the new chord, you know, but maybe that's overstating it, but actually there's a spontaneity and fantastic new element that comes in because the musicians are organic to the idea.

[Terry Gross]

So you heard that organization Pickett.

[NPR Announcer]

I heard the sound and I brought Pickett to Memphis and we cut Midnight Hour and a lot of other things there, all in a hurry. It was great.

[David Biancolli]

Jerry Wexler speaking to Terry Gross in 1993, live from the Public Radio Conference in Washington, D.C. on Monday's show, we conclude our archive series, R B, Rockabilly and early Rock and Roll, with Dion, who brought his guitar and sang some songs. Also songwriter, pianist, arranger and producer Alan Toussaint, who was at the piano for our 1988 interview and sang some of his early songs, including Lipstick Traces. I hope you can join us. FRESH air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Deanna Martinez.

[Terry Gross]

There's a lot of news happening. You want to understand it better, but let's be honest, you don't want it to be your entire life either. Well, that's sort of like our show here and Now Anytime. Every weekday on our podcast, we talk to people all over the country about everything from political analysis to climate resilience, video games. We even talk about dumpster diving on this show. Check out Here and Now Anytime, a daily podcast from NPR and WBUR Shortwave thinks of science as an invisible force showing up in your everyday life, powering the food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. Science is approachable because it's already part of your life. Come explore these connections on the Short Wave podcast from npr. On the TED Radio Hour podcast, tech CEO Victor Ripparbelli says that in the future, AI Avatar will be teaching our kids.

[Ben E. King]

They will equalize the world of education.

[David Biancolli]

Everyone will get their own private tutor, no matter if you're rich or poor.

[Ben E. King]

Hey there, learner.

[Terry Gross]

I'm Professor Cadence Hartman.

[David Biancolli]

I promise I got some interesting stuff.

[Terry Gross]

How AI is shaping education. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.