Roots of Rock: Sun Records & Johnny Cash

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fresh Air – Roots of Rock: Sun Records & Johnny Cash

Date: August 26, 2025
Hosts: Terry Gross (with Tonya Mosley)
Guests: Sam Phillips (archival interview, 1997), Johnny Cash (archival interview, 1997)

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Episode Overview

This special "Fresh Air" archive episode dives into the foundational roots of rock ’n’ roll, rockabilly, and R&B, focusing on the influential Memphis label Sun Records, its founder Sam Phillips, and one of his most renowned artists, Johnny Cash. Through two vintage interviews, Terry Gross explores Phillips' groundbreaking role in merging Black and white music styles, pioneering early rock and roll, and shaping the careers of giants like Elvis Presley and Cash. The latter half shifts to Johnny Cash, tracing his humble beginnings, complex artistry, personal struggles, and late-career renaissance.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Sam Phillips & The Birth of Rock ’n’ Roll (00:17–20:27)

Early Connections to Black Music

• Phillips explains his exposure to Black music came from working cotton fields with Black laborers as a child in the segregated South:
  • "We were able to be together an awful lot with black people because of the closeness of the type of work that we had to do on the farms." (Sam Phillips, 02:29)

Recording Black Blues Artists

• Phillips recalls skepticism from Black musicians when he began recording them, given exploitative industry norms:
  • “Most… had never seen even microphones, let alone a little studio. The psychology employed by me was to have them feel comfortable and to do the thing that they felt they wanted to do in the way of music.” (Sam Phillips, 03:47)

Howlin’ Wolf’s Impact

• Phillips expresses deep admiration for Howlin’ Wolf, highlighting his unique voice and intense passion:
  • “He had, number one, a voice that was so distinctive… it was so honest, it brought about a certain passion just by listening to him.” (Sam Phillips, 05:36)

Founding Sun Records – Creative Vision vs. Business Realities

• Phillips admits he didn’t initially intend to found a record label, but was disillusioned by the lack of business fairness at other labels:
  • “After dealing with RPM and Modern Records and Chess, I guess I was disappointed in the way business was done… I had some difficulty… from a standpoint of what I felt was fair and equitable.” (Sam Phillips, 08:53)

Discovering Elvis Presley

• Phillips wanted Elvis to find his own unique voice, encouraging an authentic blend of blues and country:
  • “I knew we needed to feel our way around between Great Gut Bucket Blues and country… I really truly thought that.” (Sam Phillips, 10:27)

Favorite Recordings: Mystery Train

• “Although little Junior Parker's record was Elvis's favorite… I have to say that both of them were my favorites till this day.” (Sam Phillips, 11:47)

Industry Changes and Quitting Production

• Phillips left producing due to the dominance of major labels:
  • “It was no use in me being a farm club, so to speak, for the major league club… So I decided I was not going to work…” (Sam Phillips, 14:14)

No Desire to Perform

• “Never, never, never… I had the good job. The boys out there on the floor, they had the tough job.” (Sam Phillips, 16:30)

Quirky Preferences: John Philip Sousa and Studio Rules

• A surprising love for marching music and strict anti-drinking policies—except for Howlin’ Wolf:
  • “If he stepped on me, I might be no more.” (Sam Phillips, 18:59)

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2. Johnny Cash: Life, Voice & Artistic Identity (21:52–48:20)

Childhood, Family & Hardship

• Cash’s father did any job to survive during the Depression, which deeply inspired him:
  • “All the things he did… would inspire me to go my own other direction.” (Johnny Cash, 24:25)

Early Music and Finding His Voice

• Cash picked cotton into adulthood, then found a new path with the guitar:
  • “I picked the guitar and I've been picking it since.” (Johnny Cash, 25:33)
• As a teenager, a sudden vocal change stunned Cash and his mother, who called it “the gift”:
  • “‘God’s got his hands on you.’ I still think of that, you know.” (Johnny Cash, 26:31)
• Cash regards himself as a “song stylist,” not just a singer:
  • “If I’m anything, I’m not a singer, but I’m a Song stylist.” (Johnny Cash, 28:17)

Mother’s Sacrifice and Unique Style

• His mother worked menial jobs to pay for singing lessons; his teacher encouraged Cash’s individuality:
  • “My mother did that… She washed the school teacher’s clothes… and sent me for singing lessons…” (Johnny Cash, 29:24)
  • “Don’t let anybody change your voice. Don’t even bother with the singing lessons.” (Cash’s singing teacher—recounted by Johnny, 29:53)

Move to Memphis and Sun Records Breakthrough

• After the Air Force, Cash struggled with odd jobs in Memphis before relentlessly pursuing Sun Records:
  • “I was fully confident… I thought, I’m going to get on Sun Records. So I called him and he turned me down flat.” (Johnny Cash describing Sam Phillips, 31:18)
• Persistence paid off when Phillips finally auditioned him, leading to “Hey Porter” and “Cry, Cry, Cry.”

The Road to Fame and Touring With Elvis

• Cash describes the excitement and inspiration of touring with Elvis, emphasizing Presley’s infectious charisma:
  • “I was always intrigued by his charisma… you can’t be in the building with Elvis without looking at him… that inspiration… really helped me to go.” (Johnny Cash, 35:03)

Temptations and Substance Abuse

• Cash candidly discusses the difficulties of sudden fame and his cycles of addiction:
  • “I was taking the pills for a while, and then the pill started taking me.” (Johnny Cash, 36:14)

Signature Hits: “I Walk the Line” and Creative Process

• The famous song began as a slow ballad, reshaped by Phillips’ production instincts:
  • “Sam wanted a… uptempo… and I put paper in the strings of my guitar to get that sound.” (Johnny Cash, 38:26)
  • Upon first hearing the released track: “I really didn’t like it. And I called Sam Phillips and asked him, please not send out any more records of that song… But he laughed at me.” (Johnny Cash, 38:54)

Prison Concerts and Legendary Live Albums

• His first prison gigs were by inmate request after “Folsom Prison Blues”; the electric crowd response led to live recordings:
  • “I always wanted to record that, you know, to record a show. Because of the reaction I got. It was far and above anything I had ever had in my life.” (Johnny Cash, 42:26)

Influence on Future Artists

• Merle Haggard attended San Quentin concerts as a prisoner, later becoming a star—a connection Cash only learned years later.

“The Man in Black” Persona

• Cash shares the origins of his signature black clothing and how it felt to briefly wear his mother's handmade bright suits:
  • “I would wear anything my mother made me… But before long, I decided to start with the black and stick with it because… That’s the way I wanted to do it.” (Johnny Cash, 46:35)

Reinvention with Rick Rubin & Late-Career Renaissance

• Cash welcomed producer Rick Rubin’s minimalist, back-to-roots approach, sparking a critical and commercial comeback:
  • “He said, I would like you to go with me and sit in my living room with a guitar and two microphones and just sing to your heart’s content, everything you ever wanted to record. I said, that sounds good to me.” (Johnny Cash, 47:17-47:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sam Phillips on authenticity in music:

  “The people that I was recording were people that had…the feel for the things they had experienced and they loved. And the way they spoke was to the people through their music.” (03:47)

• Sam Phillips on Howlin’ Wolf:

  “When he sang to you, you hardly needed a microphone or an amplifier…his ability to get lost in a song…was certainly as good as anybody I ever recorded.” (05:36)

• Johnny Cash on his mother’s belief in him:

  “She came over and put her arms around me and said, ‘God’s got his hands on you.’ I still think of that, you know.” (26:31)

• Cash’s teacher’s advice:

  “Don’t let anybody change your voice. Don’t even bother with the singing lessons.” (29:53)

• On fame and addiction:

  “I was taking the pills for a while, and then the pill started taking me.” (36:14)

• On first hearing “I Walk the Line”:

  “I called Sam Phillips and asked him, please not send out any more records of that song… But he laughed at me.” (38:54–39:08)

• On performing for prison audiences:

  “The reaction I got…it was far and above anything I had ever had in my life…the complete explosion of noise and reaction.” (42:26)

• On wearing black:

  “It felt good to me on stage. That a figure there in black and everything coming out his face. That’s the way I wanted to do it.” (46:35)

• Closing thanks:

  “I want to say you’re really good at what you do, and I appreciate you. Thank you.” (Johnny Cash to Terry Gross, 47:58)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:17: Introduction to Sam Phillips & Sun Records
• 02:29: Sam Phillips on exposure to Black music
• 05:36: Phillips on Howlin’ Wolf
• 08:53: On starting Sun Records and industry challenges
• 10:27: Working with a young Elvis Presley
• 11:47: “Mystery Train” and Sun Sessions
• 14:14: Phillips on leaving record production
• 16:30: Phillips’ lack of interest in performing himself
• 18:59: Stories: Howlin’ Wolf and relaxing studio rules
• 21:52: Introduction to Johnny Cash interview
• 24:25: Cash on his father’s influence and the Depression
• 26:31: Cash’s voice change & mother’s validation
• 28:17: Becoming a song stylist
• 29:53: On singing lessons and his unique voice
• 31:18: The persistent chase for Sun Records
• 32:10: Breakthrough with “Hey Porter”/“Cry, Cry, Cry”
• 35:03: Touring with Elvis and early fame
• 36:14: Grappling with addiction on the road
• 38:26: Evolution of “I Walk the Line”
• 42:26: Genesis of Cash’s prison concerts and recording at Folsom
• 46:35: Signature black wardrobe origins
• 47:17: New creative chapter with Rick Rubin

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Conclusion

This episode provides a compelling journey through the birth of rock and roll and the artistry of Johnny Cash, punctuated by candid anecdotes, musical appreciation, and industry truths. Sam Phillips’ inventive spirit and belief in authenticity enabled a seismic shift in American music, while Johnny Cash’s resilience, honesty, and reinvention continue to inspire generations.

For music enthusiasts and history buffs alike, this episode captures not only the sound but also the soul behind the legends who built rock’s foundation.

Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

I'm Terry Gross. Today we continue our archive series, R and B, rockabilly and early rock and roll. We start today's show with Sam Phillips, the founder of Sun Records. That's the Memphis based label that launched the careers of Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, Charlie Rich, Roy Orbison and Johnny Cash. We'll hear an interview with Cash in the second half of the show. Before Phillips started his own record label, he produced the first records of bluesman B.B. king and Howlin Wolf. As Peter Guralnick, the author of a biography of Sam Phillips and a two volume biography of Elvis, has said, Phillips has left a remarkable legacy both of black blues and the wide adaptation of it which became rock and roll. He has written one of the most astonishing chapters in the history of American popular music, and for this we can only be grateful. Sam Phillips sold Sun Records in 1969. He died in 2003. I spoke with him in 1997. We started with one of the first records he produced in his Memphis studio. It's one of the very early rock and roll records recorded in 1951. This is Rocket 88, featuring singer Jackie Branston with Ike Turner at the piano.

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

You women have heard of Jalopy's, you've heard the noise they make. But let me renoduce my new Rocket 80. Dance it straight just one way. Everybody likes my Rocket 88. Baby, we're riding in style, moving all along.

[Terry Gross]

Part of your genius has been finding musicians who brought together black music and country music, creating rock and roll and rockabilly. I'm wondering how you were exposed to black music as a white man growing up in the segregated South.

[Sam Phillips]

My interest in black music started at a very early age. I worked with black people in the fields. My daddy was a farmer and he grew cotton and of course, cotton had to be picked and hoed. My father, incidentally, did not own the farm. He was a tenant farmer and he in turn would bring other people onto the farm to help them. So we were able to be together an awful lot with black people because of the closeness of the type of work that we had to do on the farms.

[Terry Gross]

You started your producing career recording blues musicians and leasing the records to companies like RPM Modern and Chess Records. You recorded Helen Wolfe, Walter Horton, Bobby Bland, Little Junior Parker, B.B. king, the very start of their careers. I'm wondering what it was like for you as a white man in the south in the late 40s and early 50s to be recording black musicians. Was it ever difficult to have rapport? I'm wondering if they saw you as the man because you were recording them and because you were white.

[Sam Phillips]

It was a type of thing that I think most black people had some doubt as to what, quote, unquote, we were up to early on. Because in many instances, black people were taken advantage of. And maybe when they thought something was for free or for a certain price, it didn't turn out that way. I knew that the black people that I was going to record. Most of which had never seen even microphones, let alone a little studio. That the psychology that would be employed by me to have them feel comfortable and to do the thing that they felt they wanted to do in the way of music. Rather than to try to please or do the type of thing that a white man might want to do, have them do. Because I was not looking for Duke Ellington or Count Basie or Nat King Cole or any of the outstanding black jazz and pop musicians. The people that I was recording were people that had, to a great extent, the feel for the things they had experienced and they loved. And the way they spoke was to the people through their music.

[Terry Gross]

One of the great blues musicians that you discovered and first recorded was Howlin Wolf. I want to play the recording that you produced of him doing Moonin at midnight in 1951. And this was something that you did for Chess Records. I think it made it to number 10 on the R and B charts. Tell us about your first encounter with Howlin Wolf.

[Sam Phillips]

The Wolf, as I've said so many times, is one of my favorite artists. He was so individual in the things that he did. He had, number one, a voice that was so distinctive that there is. Nobody could mistake it for anybody else. That intrigued me. It was so absolutely untrained in so many ways. But at the same time, it was so honest that it was just. It brought about a certain passion just by listening to him. And there was one thing about the Wolf that you never had to worry about. When he opened his mouth in a recording studio and he would talk real low when he was talking to you. And he was a big man, about 6ft 4. And weighed probably 225 or 30 pounds and nothing but muscle. But when he talked to you, you could barely hear him. When he sang to you, you hardly needed a microphone or an amplifier. But more than that, his ability to get lost in a song for two or three minutes or how long the song was, was certainly as good as anybody I ever recorded. And when I say get lost in a song, I simply do mean that. And I think that is a good unsophisticated term of saying that we all tried to get lost in what we were doing. And I think that was part of our success.

[Terry Gross]

Well, let me play this 1951 Howling Wolf record that you produced, Moonin, and.

[Sam Phillips]

I'm anxious to hear that. One of my favorite records.

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

Well, somebody calling me Calling me on my telephone Somebody calling over my telephone well, keep on calling Tell them I'm not at home.

[Terry Gross]

That'S Howlin Wolf, a recording produced in 1951 by my guest, Sam Phillips. Sam Phillips, you started Sun Records, your studio in Memphis, after recording for independent companies, other people's independent companies, like Chess Records. Why did you want to start your own studio? Did you have a vision of what you wanted to do in your own studio?

[Sam Phillips]

I actually never wanted to actually form a label as such, like Sun Records. I wanted to be strictly on the creative end of it because I believed so strongly in what I believed in. And I wanted to prove to myself one way or the other that what I had felt, apparently for an awfully long time was either something that was worthwhile or that the public, if it had the chance, would tell us that, you know, you're on the wrong track. But after dealing with RPM and Modern Records and Chess, I guess I was disappointed in the way that I thought business was done. And I don't like to speak disparagingly of people because these people were my friends, but I had some difficulty and, you know, working with them from a standpoint of what I felt was fair and equitable in the things that we had agreed on.

[Terry Gross]

When Elvis first auditioned for you, I know that he sang in styles of his favorite performers from, you know, white and black, from Lonnie Johnson to Dean Martin. What did you do to try to get a sense from Elvis of who Elvis really was, of what his kind of own voice was?

[Sam Phillips]

Well, Elvis being as young as he was, and because I gush, I'm 12 years and three days older than Elvis and he's 19. I guess I was 31 or whatever. But I can tell you the only time that we possibly had what you might say, a difference of opinion and what we were doing is that I really did not want to do some of the, quote, unquote, more popish things that Elvis truly did, like Because Elvis, let's face it, had a. An absolute beautiful voice from the beginning. Trained or not, it was beautiful. But at the same time, he also had a certain intrigue about his voice. And I knew that and I knew that we needed to feel our way around between Great Gut Bucket Blues and country. I really truly thought that. So I think Elvis, if he had had his way and he absolutely gave us no problem at all on it, maybe he wouldn't have put a country type thing on the backside of each R and B record that we put out on him.

[Terry Gross]

Do you have a favorite of the Elvis Sun Sessions that I really do.

[Sam Phillips]

I've kidded about it a lot because I wrote the song. I really didn't. It was the song Mystery Train that little Junior Parker really basically wrote it. And we did it by him on sun. And we did it in an entirely different tempo and approach. And he had the idea for the song and came in and it wasn't quite the like we thought it should be. And so I worked with him a little bit because I really did love the idea of the song. So when we decided to do it on Elvis, it is something that I think that we did so entirely different. Although little Junior Parker's record was Elvis's favorite of the two, I have to say that both of them were my favorites till this day. I'd have to say Mystery Train ranks way up there.

[Terry Gross]

Why don't we hear. Since you produced Junior Parker's version of Mystery Train tune, why don't we hear both the Junior Parker and the Elvis version back to back?

[Sam Phillips]

We're in for a treat.

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

Train I ride 16 coaches long train I ride wide 16 co long well that long black train Carry my be from home Train Train coming right Running the big train Train coming right I'm thinking, well, it took my baby but it never will again.

[Terry Gross]

This Junior Parker and Elvis Presley, both of their versions of Mystery Train, both versions produced by my guest, Sam Phillips, the founder of Sun Records. You gave up recording in about 1963. You gave up producing records. Why did you stop?

[Sam Phillips]

I saw the handwriting on the wall. When you would do what you did had to do, and your distributors had to work with you. And then the major labels would come along and offer contracts that we couldn't even think about guarantees because we were still very, very limited on funds. So it was no use in me being a farm club, so to speak, for the major league club. And that's exactly what it came to be. So I decided I was not going to work because I Was offered a job with RCA by Steve Sholes to go to RCA at the time I sold Elvis contract. And I did not go because number one, I knew I would not be of any value to rca because I had to do whatever I did, be it right or wrong. I had to do it in the way that I felt was necessary to prove what I had set out to prove. I knew that that wasn't necessarily going to work well with a big company. It would be absolutely no percentage. It would be only frustration. I would accomplish absolutely nothing.

[Terry Gross]

You must have, or I would imagine that you must have really missed recording people when you stopped and missed discovering people.

[Sam Phillips]

I'll always miss it. I sure will. There is nothing on the face of God's earth that gives us more solace in more different areas in more different ways than music. And you better believe that if I could stay around here another 74 years and I could start all over again and have my way with a major company, or I would be recording people. Because there is nothing, there is nothing in this world that is more rewarding, whether you got a dollar out of it or not, than working with, I mean, absolutely untried, unproven talent and seeing it come to the forefront and entertain. I mean, even the hardest eared control man in the world behind that glass.

[Terry Gross]

Did you ever wish that you were the performer and you were behind the glass in the control room, but you were in front of the microphone?

[Sam Phillips]

Never, never, never, never. And that's a good question. That's probably one of the better ones, Terry, because I was never ever jealous. I was a pretty good musician. I've always said I wasn't worth a damn, but my band master and everything, Coffee High school said I was good. I directed a band in the summer and this sort of thing. But no, that did not enter my mind. Oh, no, listen, I had the good job. I had the good job. The boys out there on the floor, they had the tough job. They had to worry about one instrument. I had to worry about three maybe.

[Terry Gross]

You know, I think you just answered one of my questions. You said you played tuba when you were younger. You had said at one place that your favorite composer was John Phillip Sousa. Now, I mean, I love, I love marching band music. I love band music and marches and stuff. But I was really shocked to hear that from you, man. Who discovered Elvis Presley?

[Johnny Cash]

Hey, you.

[Sam Phillips]

You've been reading my record or something, Girl, let me tell you something about John Philip Souzer. What martial music is, is what I call stiff music. This man absolutely Got more melody chords. I'm not talking about necessarily harmony chords, because let's face it, martial music is not made up just for a nice bas. Big blend of harmony. But you listen to this guy and the way that he handled it. He is a. This guy is a master at crafting music that if you can make people want to listen to it, and if you can make somebody want to listen to a good martial piece of music, like the Washington Postmark march or Symphony Fidelis, and enjoy it, I mean, I want to tell you, you are a master musician. He is the best. He is the best at what he did. There's no but. There's not a good second. You can't name one. And of course, the Boston Pops has always been one of my favorite. That Fiedler was so crazy. I loved him, man. He was scared of nothing. Absolutely scared of nothing. The criticism. He didn't give a damn. Give him a drink before he went out on stage. A half a pint and you can forget it. Honey, you were going to have fun with music.

[Terry Gross]

I mean, you know, really.

[Sam Phillips]

Don't. Don't get me started. No, no, no.

[Terry Gross]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. You mentioned, you know, that he'd have a little drink before. My understanding is that you wouldn't let your musicians have a drink in the studio, with the exception of Howlin Wolf.

[Sam Phillips]

That is right. Damn you, woman. I swear to God. Do you have my jail record up there, too? But honestly, that's. That's a fact. And the Wolf, I looked at him, as big as he was, and then a half of a pint of Thunderbird wine. And actually, that half pint was half gone already. And I said, you know, there can't be too much harm done if I permit him to break the rules around here. And besides that, if he stepped on me, I might be no more.

[Terry Gross]

Now, what about other people? Why wouldn't you let them drink? Because, after all, you wanted them to be as relaxed and as natural and uninhibited as they could.

[Sam Phillips]

I don't really know. I really, honestly don't know, Terry. I. There was just something I wanted him to really get high on. On. On. On what we were attempting to do. And the one thing that I can tell you, unequivocally, again, is that we did get high on our music. Even the cuts that we didn't feel that we had it on. We got high on it. And I want to tell you, there is no high in this world better than when you cut something that you didn't believe that you could do. You maybe said to yourself, I know I can do it, but you really didn't believe you could do it and you do it. Now you tell me something that would be more potentially high. Now that's high octane stuff so far as I'm concerned.

[Terry Gross]

Sam Phillips founded Sun Records. Our interview was recorded in 1997. He died in 2003. One of the people whose careers he launched was Johnny Cash. We'll hear my 1997 interview with Cash after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH air.

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

Hey, Porter. Hey, Porter, would you tell me the time? How much longer will it be till we cross that Mason Dixon Line at daylight? Would you tell that engineer to slow it down or better still, just stop the train? Cause I want to look around.

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[Terry Gross]

Next in our series of interviews on R and B, rockabilly and early rock and roll, we have my 1997 interview with Johnny Cash, one of country music's most influential performers. He's in both the country music and rock and roll halls of fame. Some of his best known recordings include I Walk the Line, Ring of Fire and Folsom Prison Blues. His early recordings were on Sun Records, which was owned by Sam Phillips, who we just heard from and was the most influential label that produced rockabilly. I spoke with Cash when his autobiography was published. In the book, he said that after his hits in the 60s, he didn't sell huge numbers of records, but he kept making music he's proud of. But in 1994, he hooked up with record producer Rick Rubin, who had produced many rap and rock hits. The recordings they made together included many Cash covers of contemporary rock songs, including songs by Nine Inch Nails and Sting. And as the autobiography says, the Cash and Rubin collaborations transform Cash's image from Nashville has been to hip icon, and it gained him a new, young audience. Soon after we spoke in 1997, he announced that he had Parkinson's disease and was canceling the remainder of his book tour, which had just begun. His diagnosis was later changed to autonomic neuropathy, a disease affecting the nervous system. Cash died in 2003. Earlier that year, he won a Grammy for Best Male Country Vocal Performance for his new version of Give My Love to Rose, which he first recorded on Sun Records in 1957. Here's his 1956 recording of Get Rhythm, which was produced by Sam Phillips on Sun Records.

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

Hey, get rhythm when you get the blues Come on, get a rhythm when you get the blues Get a rock and roll feeling in your bones Put taps on your toes and get gone Get a rhythm when you get the blue. A little shoeshine boy he never gets low down but he's got the dirtiest job in town Bending low at the people's feet On a windy corner of the dirty street Will I ask him while he shined my shoes How'd he keep from getting the blues? He grinned as he raised his little head he popped his shoeshine rag and then he said get rhythm when you get the blues Come on, get a rhythm.

[Terry Gross]

You grew up during the Depression. What are some of the things that your father did to make a living while you were a boy?

[Johnny Cash]

My father was a cotton farmer first, but he didn't have any land or what land he had. He lost it in a depression. So he worked as a woodsman, cut pulp wood for the paper mills, rode the rails in boxcars, going from one harvest to another to try to make a little money picking fruit or vegetables, did every kind of work imaginable, from painting to shoveling to herding cattle. He's always been such an inspiration to me because of the very kinds of things that he did and the kind of life he lived. He inspired me so that all the things he did so far from being a soldier in World War I to being an old man in his patio, sitting on the porch watching the dogs, you know, I think about his life and it would inspire me to go my own other direction. And I just like to explore minds and the desires of people out there.

[Terry Gross]

You know, it's interesting that you say your father inspired you so much. I'm sure you wouldn't have wanted to lead his life picking cotton.

[Johnny Cash]

I did, from until I was 18 years old, that is. Then I picked the guitar and I've been picking it since.

[Terry Gross]

Right. Did you Have a plan to get out. Did you very much want to get out of the town where you were brought up and get out of picking cotton?

[Johnny Cash]

Yeah. I knew that when I left there at the age of 18, I wouldn't be back. And it was common knowledge among all the people there that when you graduate from high school here, you go to college or go get a job or something and do it on your own. And I haven't been familiar with hard work. It was no problem for me. But first I hitchhiked to pontiac, michigan, and got a job working in fisher body, making those 1951 Pontiacs. I worked there three weeks, got really sick of it, Went back home and joined the air force.

[Terry Gross]

You have such a wonderful deep voice. Did you start singing before your voice changed?

[Johnny Cash]

Oh, yeah. I got no deep voice today. I've got a cold. But when I was young, I had a high tenor voice. I used to sing bill Monroe songs, and I sang dennis day songs, like. Yeah. Songs that he sang on the jack benny show. Every week he sang an old irish folk song, and next day in the fields, I'd be singing that song if I was working in the fields. And I always loved those songs. And with my high tenor, I thought I was pretty good, you know, almost as good as dennis day. But When I was 17, 16, my father and I cut wood all day long, and I was swinging that crosscut saw and hauling wood. And when I walked in the back door late that afternoon, I was singing, everybody gonna have religion and glory Everybody gonna be singing a story. I sang those old gospel songs for my mother, and she said, is that you? And I said, yes, ma'. Am. And she came over and put her arms around me and said, God's got his hands on you. I still think of that, you know.

[Terry Gross]

She realized you had a gift.

[Johnny Cash]

That's what she said? Yeah, she called it the gift.

[Terry Gross]

Well, how did you feel about your voice changing? It must have stunned you if you were singing like dennis o', day, and then suddenly you were singing like johnn cash.

[Johnny Cash]

Yeah, I don't know. I guess when I was a tenor, I just. And when it changed, I thought, well, it goes right along with these hormones, and everything's working out really good, you know, I felt like my voice was becoming the man's voice.

[Terry Gross]

Right, right. So did you start singing different songs as your voice got deeper?

[Johnny Cash]

Mm. Lucky old son. Memories are made of this 16 tons. I developed a pretty unusual style. I think if I'm anything, I'm not a singer, but I'm a Song stylist.

[Terry Gross]

What's the difference?

[Johnny Cash]

Well, I say I'm not a singer, so that means I can't sing. But doesn't it?

[Terry Gross]

Well, but, I mean, that's not true. I understand you're making a distinction, but you certainly can sing. Yeah, go ahead.

[Johnny Cash]

Well, song stylist. It's like to take an old folk song like Deed is Gone and do a modern white man's version of it. A lot of those I did that way, you know, I would take songs that I'd loved, loved as a child and redo them in my mind for the new voice I had, the low voice.

[Terry Gross]

I know that you briefly took singing lessons, and you say in your new book that your singing teacher told you, you know, don't let anybody change your voice. Don't even bother with the singing lessons. How did you end up taking lessons in the first place?

[Johnny Cash]

My mother did that, and she was determined that I was going to leave the farm and do well in life. And she thought with the gift, I might be able to do that. So she took in washing. She got a washing machine in 1942. As soon as they got electricity and she took in washing, she. She washed the school teacher's clothes, anybody she could, and sent me for singing lessons for $3 per lesson, and that's how she made the money to send me.

[Terry Gross]

What was your reaction when the teacher told you, don't let anybody change what you're doing. I'm not going to teach you anymore?

[Johnny Cash]

I was pretty happy about that. I didn't really want to change. I felt good about my voice.

[Terry Gross]

You left home when you were about 18, and then how old were you when you actually went to Memphis?

[Johnny Cash]

Well, I went to Memphis after I finished the air Force in 1954. I lived on that farm until I went to the Air Force. I was in there four years, and when I came back, I got married and moved to Memphis, got an apartment, started trying to sell appliances at a place called Home Equipment Company. But I couldn't sell anything and didn't really want to. All I wanted was the music. And if somebody in the house was playing music, when I would come, I would stop and sing with them. Like one time, Gus Cannon, the man who wrote Walk Right in, which was a hit for the Rooftop Singers, and I sat on the front porch with him day after day when I found him and sing those songs.

[Terry Gross]

When you got to Memphis, Elvis Presley had already recorded that's All Right. Sam Phillips had produced him for his label, Sun Records. You called Sam Phillips and asked for an audition. Did it take a lot of nerve to make that phone call?

[Johnny Cash]

No, it just took the right time. I was fully confident that I was going to see Sam Phillips and to record for him. That when I called him, I thought, I'm going to get on Sun Records. So I called him and he turned me down flat. Then two weeks later, I turned down again. He told me over the phone that he couldn't sell gospel music. So it was independent, not a lot of money, you know. So I didn't press that issue. But one day I just decided, I'm ready to go. So I went down with my guitar and sat on the front steps of his recording studio and met him when he came in. And I said, I'm John Cash. I'm the one that's been calling, and if you'd listen to me, I believe you'll be glad you did. And he said, come on in. That was a good lesson for me, you know, to believe in myself.

[Terry Gross]

So what did Phillips actually respond to most of the songs that you played him?

[Johnny Cash]

He responded most to a song of mine called hey Porter, which was on the first record. But he asked me to go write a love song or maybe a bitter weeper. So I wrote a song called Cry, Cry, Cry, went back in and recorded that for the other side of the record.

[Terry Gross]

Well, why don't we hear Cry, Cry, Cry, which was on the first single that Sun Records released by you.

[Johnny Cash]

Okay?

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

Everybody knows where you go when the sun goes down. I think you only live to see the lights uptown. I wasted my time when I would try, try, try. Cause when the lights have lost a glow. You cry, cry, cry. Soon your sugar daddies will all be gone. You wake up some cold day and find you're alone. You'll call for me, but I'm gonna tell you bye, bye, bye. When I turn around and walk away, you'll cry, cry, cry. You're gonna cry, cry, cry and you cry alone. When everyone's forgotten and you're left on your own. You're gonna cry, cry, cry.

[Terry Gross]

We're listening to my 1997 interview with Johnny Cash. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH air.

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[Johnny Cash]

You get to the point where you start asking, what did you do in your life that was significant?

[Capital One / NPR Sponsor Announcer]

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[Terry Gross]

What was it like when you started to go on tour, you know, after coming from the cotton fields? It's true. I mean, you'd been in the army and you'd been abroad, you know, with the Army. But what was it like for you in the early days of getting recognized, you know, traveling around the country?

[Johnny Cash]

Well, when I started playing concerts, I went out from Memphis to Arkansas, Louisiana and Tennessee, played the little towns there that I would go out myself in my car and set up the show or get the show booked in those theaters. And then along about three months later, Elvis Presley asked me to sing with him at the Overton Park Shell in Memphis. And I sang Cry, Cry, Cry and Hay Porter. And from that time on, I was on my way. And I knew it, I felt it, and I loved it. So Elvis asked me to go on tour with him, and I did. I worked with Elvis four or five tours in the next year or so. And I I was always intrigued by his charisma, you know, I just you can't be in the building with Elvis without looking at him, you know. And he inspired me so that with his fire and energy that I guess that inspiration from him really helped me to go.

[Terry Gross]

What were the temptations like for a young married man like yourself on the road, you know, slowly becoming a star?

[Johnny Cash]

Hmm. Fame was pretty hard to handle, actually. The country boy in me tried to break loose and take me back to the country. But the music was stronger. The urge to go out and do the gift was a lot stronger. And the temptations were women, girls, which I loved, and then amphetamines not very much later from running all night, you know, in our cars on tour. And the doctors got these nice pills that give us energy and keep us awake. So started taking those, and I liked them so much, I got addicted to them. And then I started Taking downers as sleeping pills to come down and rest after two or three days. So it became a cycle. I was taking the pills for a while, and then the pill started taking me.

[Terry Gross]

I want to play what I think was your first big hit, I Walk the Line.

[Johnny Cash]

That was my third record.

[Terry Gross]

And you wrote the song. Tell me the story of how you wrote it and what you were thinking about.

[Johnny Cash]

At the time, in the Air Force, I had an old Wilcox K recorder and used to hear guitar runs on that recorder going dun, dun, dun, dun, like the chord zone. I walked the line. And I always wanted to write a love song using that theme, you know, that tune. And so I started to write the song. And I was in Gladewater, Texas, one night with Carl Perkins, and I said, I've got a good idea for a song. And I sang him the first verse that I had written, and I said, it's called because you're mine. And he said, I walk the Line is a better title. So I changed it to I walked the Line.

[Terry Gross]

Now, were you thinking of your own life when you wrote this?

[Johnny Cash]

Mm. It was kind of a prodding to myself to play it straight, Johnny.

[Terry Gross]

And was this. I. I think I read that this was supposed to be a ballad. I mean, it was supposed to be slow when you first wrote it.

[Johnny Cash]

That's the way I sang it, yeah, at first. But Sam wanted a, you know, uptempo. And I put paper in the strings of my guitar to get that sound. And with a bass and a lead guitar there, it was bare and stark. That song was when it was released, and I heard it on the radio, and I really didn't like it. And I called Sam Phillips and asked him, please not send out any more records of that song.

[Terry Gross]

Why?

[Johnny Cash]

But he laughed at me. I just didn't like the way it sounded to me. I didn't know I sounded that way, and I didn't like it. I don't know. But he said, let's give it a chance. And it was just a few days until that's all it took to take off.

[Terry Gross]

That's funny. I mean, you'd heard your voice before, hadn't you?

[Johnny Cash]

Mm.

[Terry Gross]

So it was something in your own singing you weren't liking when you heard it?

[Johnny Cash]

Well, the music and my voice together, I just felt like it was really weird. But I got used to it very quickly. I don't know if that. I didn't. I didn't hate it, but I just didn't like it. I thought I could do better.

[Terry Gross]

Well, let's hear our Walk in Line. This is a great record. It was great then and it still is. This is Johnny Cash.

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

I keep a close watch on this heart of mine. I keep my eyes wide open all the time I keep the ends out for the tithe that binds because you're mine, I walk the line. I find it very, very to be true. I find myself alone when each day's through. Yes, I'll admit that I'm a fool for you. Because you're mine. I walk the line.

[Terry Gross]

We're listening to the interview I recorded with Johnny Cash in 1997. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. Stars, they're just like us. John Legend goes to CBS. Well, that's because he has his own skincare line.

[Johnny Cash]

It was so exciting to actually go into one of those stores. We had the end caps.

[Terry Gross]

Were you like, I don't want this locked up? John Legend is one of many stars.

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Riding the celebrity branding wave.

[Terry Gross]

He tells us about it on the indicator from Planet Money. Listen in the NPR app or wherever.

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You got your podcast. Shortwave thinks of science as an invisible force showing up in your everyday life, powering the food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. Science is approachable because it's already part of your life. Come explore these connections on the Short Wave podcast from npr. This message comes from Ollie. Dedicated to helping you prioritize your wellness with solutions that fit seamlessly into your routine. Ollie knows that keeping your immune system healthy is key, which is why they offer Women's Multi and Probiotic mango. And for those occasional nights when sleep is hard to find, Ollie's Sleep Gummies are available. Shop these products and [e-mail] or retailers nationwide. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Terry Gross]

I think it was in the late 1950s that you started doing prison concerts, which you eventually became very. What got you started performing in prison?

[Johnny Cash]

Well, I had a song called Folsom Prison Blues that was the hit just before I Walked the line. And the people in Texas heard about it at the state prison and got to write me letters asking me to come down there. So I responded. And then the warden called me and asked if I would come down and do a show for the prisoners in Texas. And so we went down and there's a rodeo at all these shows that the prisoners have there. And in between the rodeo things, they asked me to set up and do two or three songs. So that was What I did, I did Folsom Prison Blues. Which they thought was their song, you know. And I walked the line Ring Hey, Porter. Cry, cry, cry and then the word got around on the grapevine that Johnny Cash was all right and that you ought to see him. So the requests started coming in from other prisoners all over the United States. And then the word got around. So I always wanted to record that, you know, to record a show. Because of the reaction I got. It was far and above anything I had ever had in my life. The complete explosion of noise and reaction that they gave me with every song. So then I came back the next year and played the prison again. The New Year's Day show. Came back again the third year and did the show. And then I kept talking to my producers at Columbia about recording one of those shows. It was so exciting. I said that the people out there ought to share that, you know, and feel that excitement, too. So preacher friend of mine named Floyd Gress set it up for us and Lew Robin and a lot of other people involved at Folsom Prison. So we went into Folsom on February 11, 1968, and recorded the show live.

[Terry Gross]

Why don't we hear Folsom Prison Blues. From your Live at Folsom Prison record? This is Johnny Cash.

[Johnny Cash]

Hello, I'm Johnny Cash.

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

I hear the train a comin it's rolling around a bend and I ain't seen the sunshine since I don't know when I'm stuck in Folsom Prison and time keeps dragging on but that train keeps rolling on down the slide and tall When I was just a baby My mama told me son always be a good boy don't ever play with guns But I shot a man in Reno Just to watch him die.

[Johnny Cash]

When.

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

I hear that whistle blowing I hang.

[Johnny Cash]

My head and cry.

[Terry Gross]

That'S Johnny Cash live at Folsom Prison. And Johnny Cash has a new autobiography that's just been published. I guess Merle Haggard was in the audience for one of your San Quentin concerts. Must have been pretty exciting to find that out. That was before he had recorded. I think that he was in there.

[Johnny Cash]

Yeah, 68 and 69. Right on the front row was Merle Haggard.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. And who knew?

[Johnny Cash]

I didn't know that till about 1963. He told me all about it. He saw every show that I did there. And of course, the rest is history for Merle. He came out and immediately had success himself.

[Terry Gross]

You know, it's interesting. You've always, or almost always worn black during your career. And I was interested in reading that, your mother hated it, too.

[Johnny Cash]

Yeah.

[Terry Gross]

See, we have something in common. Mothers don't like black.

[Johnny Cash]

I love it.

[Terry Gross]

Me, too. But you gave in for a while. She started making you bright, flashy outfits, even a nice white suit. What did it feel like for you to be on stage in bright colors or all in white?

[Johnny Cash]

Well, that was 1956, and I hadn't been wearing the black for very long. Oh, it was okay. I would wear anything my mother made me. You know, I just couldn't afford to turn her down. But before long, I decided to start with the black and stick with it because it. It felt good to me on stage. That a figure there in black and everything coming out his face. That's the way I wanted to do it.

[Terry Gross]

A few years ago, you started making records with Rick Rubin. Seemed initially like a very improbable match. He had produced a lot of rap records and produced the Beastie Boys and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. You know, it would seem like a surprising match. It ended up being a fantastic match.

[Johnny Cash]

How did he approach you, Lou Robin, my manager, came to me and talked to me about a man called Rick Rubin that he had been talking to that wanted me to sign with his record company. It was American Recordings. I said, I like the name. Maybe it'd be okay. So he said, I would like you to go with me and sit in my living room with a guitar and two microphones and just sing to your heart's content, everything you ever wanted to record. I said, that sounds good to me.

[Terry Gross]

Why don't we hear Delia's Gone from Johnny Cash's American Recordings CD and Johnny Cash. I want to thank you so much for talking with us.

[Johnny Cash]

I want to say you're really good at what you do, and I appreciate you. Thank you.

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

Delia Od. Delia, Delia. All my life if I hadn't a shot Poor Delia, I'd have had her for my wife. Delia's gone. One more round.

[Johnny Cash]

Delia's gone.

[Terry Gross]

My interview with Johnny Cash was recorded in 1997. He died in 2003. Tomorrow we continue our archive series, R and B, rockabilly and early rock and roll. We'll hear from Johnny Otis, who had the hits Harlem Nocturne and Willie in the Hand Jive, and discovered Little Esther, Jackie Wilson, Big Mama Thornton, Hank Ballard, and Etta James. We'll also hear my interview with Etta James, who's now best known for her recording of At Last. Hope you'll join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, our managing producer producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly Sivi Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

But jailer, oh, jailer, jailer, I can't sl. Cause all around my bedside I hear the patter of Delia's feet.

[Johnny Cash]

Delia's gone.

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

One more round.

[Johnny Cash]

Delia's gone.

[Musical Performer (Various Songs)]

So if your woman's devilish, you can let her run or you can bring her down and do her like Delia got done. Delia's gone.

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On the next through line from npr.

[Johnny Cash]

She becomes, for lack of a better word, a Tupperware queen. It just never seemed to occur to her that her growth in any endeavor could be stunted because she happened to be a woman.

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The Tupperware tycoon Brownie Wise. Listen to throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Terry Gross]

NPR's Wildcard podcast is all about embracing the unexpected. Like when Harrison Ford stopped by.

[Johnny Cash]

My phone just rang.

[Terry Gross]

Jay Leno is calling you right now.

[Johnny Cash]

About my toilet seat. Yeah, Jay's printing a 3D printed toilet seat for me.

[Terry Gross]

What? Listen to NPR's Wild Card wherever you.

[Capital One / NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Get your podcasts or watch it on YouTube.