Scarlett Johansson & June Squibb On 'Eleanor The Great'

Summary

Fresh Air: Scarlett Johansson & June Squibb on "Eleanor the Great"

Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Tonya Mosley
Guests: Scarlett Johansson (director), June Squibb (lead actor)

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Overview

In this episode, Tonya Mosley sits down with Scarlett Johansson, making her directorial debut, and June Squibb, the 94-year-old Oscar-nominated actor, to discuss their new film Eleanor the Great. The film follows Eleanor, an elderly woman who, while grieving the loss of her closest friend, begins to tell her late friend’s Holocaust survival story as her own. The conversation covers the film’s themes of identity, grief, and moral complexity; intergenerational friendship; the importance of Holocaust remembrance; and both guests’ outstanding careers and approaches to creative risk-taking.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Heart of "Eleanor the Great"

• Premise: Eleanor, age 94, moves back to Manhattan after decades, grieving her best friend and feeling invisible. She claims her friend’s Holocaust survival as her own story, a choice both deceptive and deeply human.
• Casting Real Survivors: Johansson intentionally cast Holocaust survivors in the film's survivor support group scenes for authenticity and respect.
  • “It just felt very important and a must, an absolute must that we identify survivors that wanted to participate and then were able to participate.” – Scarlett Johansson [09:19]

June Squibb on Eleanor & Aging Authentically

• On what drew her to Eleanor:
  • “She was such a human character and had so many feelings… she kept revealing herself. Something new about her constantly.” – June Squibb [04:16]
• On asserting presence as an older woman: Squibb discusses how Eleanor's sharp wit hides vulnerability and a desire to be seen, reflecting societal invisibility of the elderly.
• Industry Recognition Late in Life: Squibb shares how varied roles, especially post-Nebraska, have given her a late career renaissance.

Scarlett Johansson’s Directorial Journey

• First reading the script:
  • “This is a character who suffers this devastating loss … and all of a sudden, this plot twist… this lie that Eleanor tells, in a moment of real, deep loneliness... it was surprising. It’s rare to feel surprised when you read a script.” – Scarlett Johansson [05:26]
• Balancing Humor and Heavy Subjects:
  • “It was written in... that humor felt familiar to me. It was like dialogue vocabulary that I just got.” [07:19]
  • “If I do my job right by the end of the film, [the audience] is able to abandon any judgment and have empathy and compassion for the characters...” [08:26]
• Emerging as a Director: Redford’s example on The Horse Whisperer set inspired her, but Johansson describes needing time and life experience—particularly motherhood—for the confidence to direct.
  • “I don’t think I could have directed a film before now. Not with the same confidence, which is what you need.” [29:14–30:02]

Holocaust Memory and Family History

• Personal Connection: Johansson recounts discovering family lost in the Holocaust and the profound weight of seeing their names in historical registers.
  • “It's so profound and moving and horrifying just to hold that document.” – Scarlett Johansson [13:10]
• Silence and Storytelling: Johansson and Squibb reflect on the importance—personally and for society—of both telling and preserving stories as the survivor population dwindles.
  • “We make people look at it and remember and understand.” – June Squibb [10:57]
  • “A lot of survivors live, you know, holding those stories like a horror they don't want to recount or relive. And so there's a lot of these stories that… are kind of lost in time.” – Scarlett Johansson [14:36]

Intergenerational Friendships and Influence

• Film Example: The film centers a friendship between Eleanor and a young writer, Nina.
  • “If there’s one thing I’ve learned—and you can write this down—you have to talk about the things that make you sad... If you don’t, it can just eat you alive. 80 years later and you’ll still be there.” – Eleanor (June Squibb) [36:52]
• Real Life: Both Squibb and Johansson cherish intergenerational relationships, noting how such connections enrich their lives and work.
  • Squibb: “It just seems natural to me. If somebody’s interesting, they’re interesting no matter what their age is.” [39:56]

The Craft: Theatre, Film, and Career Shifts

• June Squibb’s Career: She started in musical theater and Broadway, notoriously dubbed “the dirtiest mouth on Broadway” [17:03]. Transition to film came late, by her own agency and persistence.
  • “I went to my agent and said, everybody I know is working in film... And in a week, I had an audition for Woody Allen...” [31:52]
• Acting in Different Mediums:
  • “With theatre, you’re trying to reach a larger audience... with film, you’re in love with that camera.” – June Squibb [33:17]
• Objectification of Women in Hollywood:
  • Johansson discusses breaking out of the “bombshell” typecasting by seeking substantive roles and experiences on stage.
    • “I felt really frustrated... suddenly I was playing either like the other woman or the girl piece… It’s your own responsibility to get yourself out of those tight spots. No one’s gonna do that for you… That play (A View from the Bridge) was a real turning point for me.” [42:27]
  • Tony Award for Best Featured Actress: Validation came not just from awards, but from acceptance by the Broadway theater community. [44:38–45:34]
• Navigating Career Types:
  • Squibb discusses how her shift from musicals to more dramatic acting was self-driven, supported by her second husband, an acting teacher:
    • “He was determined almost more than I was that I was going to become a fine actress… I started going … regional theater … off Broadway.” [46:35]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• June Squibb, on writing Johansson to direct:
  • “Will you come and do the film?” [04:43]
  • Johansson jokes, “And then June offered me a large cash sum, which I still have not yet received.” [05:06]
• On humor and authenticity:
  • “Those very biting lines … are some of them verbatim her grandmother’s words.” – Johansson [07:19]
• On preserving Holocaust memory:
  • “If you have a living relative who's lived through the Holocaust, … the work that the Shoah foundation does to preserve those stories is so vital.” – Johansson [14:36]
• On being typecast:
  • “It’s your own responsibility to get yourself out of those tight spots. No one’s gonna do that for you, you know.” – Johansson [42:27]
• On intergenerational friendships:
  • “If somebody’s interesting, they’re interesting no matter what their age is.” – Squibb [39:56]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Event | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:16–04:16 | Introduction of film and guests; Squibb discusses Eleanor | | 04:36–05:19 | Squibb’s letter, Johansson’s response; early director interest | | 05:26–07:02 | Johansson on her emotional reaction to the script | | 07:19–09:06 | Balancing humor and heavy themes | | 09:06–10:52 | Casting Holocaust survivors and importance | | 12:02–13:03 | Squibb’s personal connection to Judaism | | 13:10–15:34 | Johansson discovers family Holocaust history | | 16:34–17:47 | Squibb’s stage origins; “dirtiest mouth on Broadway” | | 18:24–20:22 | Johansson’s NYC childhood and influence of her grandmother | | 22:07–29:14 | Johansson’s move to directing; Redford and The Horse Whisperer | | 31:52–33:17 | Squibb’s move from theater to film | | 36:17–37:39 | Diner scene with Nina; wisdom about grief and storytelling | | 42:27–44:38 | Johansson on typecasting and fighting for complex roles | | 47:12–end | Squibb’s transition from musical theater to acting |

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Flow and Tone

The conversation is candid, warm, and often humorous—mirroring the balance of poignancy and wit in Eleanor the Great. Both guests speak with humility and openness about vulnerability, risk, and change, offering insights for artists and audiences alike about the power of stories, the responsibility of memory, and the necessity of self-advocacy in creative careers.

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For Listeners

This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in nuanced storytelling about aging, memory, and moral ambiguity on screen; the experience and wisdom of two barrier-breaking women in film; and the relevance of Holocaust remembrance in our current era.

Transcript

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[Tonya Moseley]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Moseley. A 94 year old woman displaced in grieving the loss of her best friend and roommate makes an audacious choice. She begins telling her deceased friend's story of surviving the Holocaust as if it were her own. It's deceptive and morally complicated, but for Eleanor, it's the first time in years she truly feels seen. That's the premise of Eleanor the Great, opening Tomorrow, a poignant and humorous film that moved first time director Scarlett Johansson to tears when she initially read the script. To honor the story's weight, she cast actual Holocaust survivors alongside her. Lead at the center is June Squibb, 94 years old and having the creative run of her life. The Academy Award nominated actor has worked for over six decades, but it wasn't until Nebraska in 2013 that she became a household name. Now with Eleanor the Great, following her recent triumph in Thelma, she's starring yet again as the lead in a story that centers on the very real experiences of someone still navigating life in their 90s. Johansson herself knows something about breaking barriers. The two time Oscar nominee has navigated the industry since she was a kid. She's built a career that spans intimate dramas like Marriage Story and global blockbusters like the Avengers films. And now she's directed a film that explores grief and forgiveness. And who has the right to tell someone's story? Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb. Welcome to FRESH air.

[June Squibb]

Thank you.

[Scarlett Johansson]

Thank you very much.

[Tonya Moseley]

Well, June, you have this sharp wit in Eleanor the Great. We have seen this in several of your roles, but there is this mix of bite and charm and I want to give listeners a sense of it. I want to start with a scene from early in the film. Eleanor, your character and her best friend Bessie, played by Rita Zohar, are shopping for kosher pickles when a stock boy makes the mistake of saying he thinks that all pickles are basically the same. And Eleanor basically lets him know what she thinks about that.

[June Squibb]

Excuse me. They are the closest kosher. They're supposed to be right here. I guess we're at. Hello. Do you have in the back maybe? Well, we have a bunch of other pickles right here.

[Scarlett Johansson]

And honestly, I think all pickles taste the same.

[June Squibb]

Excuse me, Eleanor. No, Are you listening to this? All Pickles are the same, I heard. Hey, Charlie. Nice name. How long you been working here, Charlie? I don't know, like, few weeks. That's cute. Well, yesterday was delivery day, and you know how I know that? Because we've been coming here every Friday for the last 16 years. Can you count to 16, Charlie? Well, here's what you're going to do. You're going to go to the back. Bessie, point to the back so Charlie doesn't get lost. You're going to turn left at the shampoo. Go all the way down the aisle. Now, I know it's complicated, Charlie, but stay with me, with me, and you'll find the pickles that my friend needs, okay? Okay. Go fetch.

[Tonya Moseley]

That was my guest, June Squib in Eleanor the Great, directed by Scarlett Johansson. June, the scene is definitely funny, but there is something more going on here because Eleanor is kind of asserting herself at the two of them being dismissed. And it's. It's something that plays throughout the entire film. What drew you to this character?

[June Squibb]

I just felt she was such a human character and had so many feelings, and she kept revealing herself. Something new about her constantly in the script and all that was very attractive to me, and it was well written. So I just felt, yeah, I want to do this.

[Tonya Moseley]

Is it true that you wrote Scarlett a letter once you signed on to this, asking her to be a part of it?

[June Squibb]

Yes, when Scarlett was interested in directing it and the producers asked me if I would write a letter, and they were going to include it in the package of letters or whatever it was they were sending Scarlett to try to convince her to direct the film. So I did. I don't think I said too much in it. I think probably something like, will you come and do the film?

[Scarlett Johansson]

And then June offered me a large cash sum, which I still have not yet received.

[June Squibb]

Oh, I didn't. Maybe a mocha blended or something like that, but not money.

[Tonya Moseley]

Scarlet, I mentioned that this script made you cry when you read it. Do you remember that moment when you just knew you had to be a part of it?

[Scarlett Johansson]

Well, I, firstly, was. I had received the COVID letter from June. Yeah, I didn't know anything about the script, only that June Squibb wanted to take on a leading role. And what could it be at this stage in her career? I mean, June said she turns a lot down. I'm sure she must, because, you know, it's such a huge effort to commit to something like this for any actor. And I was just very intrigued. And it was clear to me upon first Reading it. Okay, this is a character who suffers this devastating loss and she is having this, you know, very challenging time, navigating this move back to Manhattan after 40 years of not living there. And she's a 94 year old woman who feels, you know, invisible in this. In the current, you know, economy environment. And, you know, then all of a sudden, this plot twist, you know, which you described earlier, this lie that Eleanor tells, you know, in a moment of, I think, real deep loneliness, isolation, an attempt to connect with a community. And what grows out of that lie was so unexpected. It just felt very. It was surprising. And it's rare to feel surprised when you read a script. A lot of times scripts are very formulaic or they're based on, you know, IP that you're familiar with or, you know, you can kind of see where the story is going. But this one just felt really original and unique.

[Tonya Moseley]

When you took on the challenge, you're like, okay, this is so interesting. I'm gonna do this. How did you wrestle with those moral questions as a director, making it funny? Because it is very humorous, but also taking on such a heavy topic?

[Scarlett Johansson]

Well, I mean, the humor certainly was written in Tori Kamen, who wrote the script. You know, it was a sort of thesis that she built around her grandmother who was. She was very, very close with, who similarly moved back to New York after many decades of L, you know, is a much older woman. And those very biting lines, those salty lines, even from Rita's character, Bessie, are. Some of them are verbatim her grandmother's words. And so. And I grew up in New York. I, you know, had a Jewish grandmother who was also. Could be very dry and she was very funny. And I don't know, that humor felt familiar to me. It was like dialogue vocabulary that I just got. And so that was baked in. And of course, having June with her incredible comedic timing and, you know, her expression and her vocal cadence and, you know, she's the perfect person to be delivering those zingers. But as far as the sensitive, you know, balance and subject matter, you know, I think as a director and I think even as an actor too, it's not really my job to kind of judge these characters and what they do or if I have any judgment, yeah, I'm probably not the right person to be supporting the story. I think it's, you know, I hope that the audience, if I do my job right by the end of the film, is able to abandon any judgment and have empathy and compassion for the characters and certainly for Eleanor's deception and Understand why she does what she does. Mm.

[June Squibb]

Mm.

[Tonya Moseley]

Scarlett, you made this intentional choice to cast real Holocaust survivors. And the group support scenes, how did. How did that idea come together?

[Scarlett Johansson]

I think it was pretty obvious that that was necessary because when you start to talk about casting people for. Just felt kind of like a phony. I wouldn't even know what I would be looking for exactly. It just felt very important and a must, an absolute must that we identify survivors that wanted to participate and then were able to participate. And, you know, can we create an environment where, you know, those people could sit with us for a couple of days and not, you know, in general comfort? You know, luckily, living in New York, you know, there was a lot of different roads that we could kind of go down. Jessica Hack, 2, is a fantastic actor and extraordinary in the film, who plays Lisa, Eleanor's daughter. She is very involved in the Jewish community here in New York, and so she was able to identify a couple of our survivors just through the community. And also we. You know, we worked with Rodef Shalom, the temple that we shot the film, actually, where Eleanor's character is bat mitzvahed. They helped us to identify some. Some people. The Shoah foundation also helped us out. So we just kind of sent out the bat signal. And we were very, very fortunate to be able to come up with a group that we did. And tomorrow we'll be having our screening in New York, and, yeah, we'll be inviting our group to come and enjoy the film with their family. I'm so excited for them to see.

[Tonya Moseley]

It, because that population is dwindling. They're not many very fast.

[June Squibb]

The population is dwindling. And I think it's also why we must keep the story. We must do it, which is what I think Scarlett and I did with this. I mean, we make people look at it and remember and understand.

[Tonya Moseley]

Scarlett mentioned that there was a planned bat mitzvah for you in the film. You actually had to learn Torah for this role.

[June Squibb]

Yes, I did. And I did.

[Scarlett Johansson]

It's a sore subject.

[June Squibb]

It's a sore problem because it didn't end up in the film.

[Scarlett Johansson]

June was dreaming her Torah portion.

[June Squibb]

I was.

[Scarlett Johansson]

And then we ended up cutting it. And she was so bummed. You can hear the bitterness in her voice, Charlotte.

[June Squibb]

But it didn't make it in the film.

[Tonya Moseley]

You gotta find a way to have that out there. It's an excellent or.

[June Squibb]

Scarlet says eventually it will get out.

[Scarlett Johansson]

It's gonna be on the B sides. Yeah.

[Tonya Moseley]

June, as someone you converted to Judaism decades ago, is that Right, Yes.

[June Squibb]

In the 50s.

[Tonya Moseley]

In the 50s. You married someone who was Jewish. That's why. What was that experience like, diving deeper into that story, into those texts where Eleanor's journey. It's also, I would imagine, personal growth.

[June Squibb]

It wasn't. And I kept thinking back, you know, if I was sitting studying it or something, and I would think back to that time when I was studying Judaism with this wonderful young rabbi in Cleveland. Cleveland, Ohio.

[Scarlett Johansson]

Where are you from?

[June Squibb]

Yeah, it was very exciting. I loved it. I loved doing it, and I loved meeting him and becoming close to him, and we just talked about everything. He was just great, great guy. And he married us. So that was. My husband said he married me. He didn't marry him at all. But it was a very exciting and wonderful part of my life, really was.

[Tonya Moseley]

Scarlet, you discovered not too long ago that you had family lost in the Holocaust, is that right?

[Scarlett Johansson]

I did, actually. I was on the Henry Louis Gates show Finding youg Roots. And I knew that I had lost relatives in the Warsaw ghetto, but I certainly didn't know how many. Several members of my family, a whole family of people and young children. And looking at the register, one of the members who had escaped went back after the war and after the ghetto had been destroyed. Really? Yeah. And, you know, had to go back and to kind of take a notice of, you know, this is what they died from, this is how old they were. You know, almost like a diary of that. And so to see the handwritten names, ages, you know, children, you know, that they were dying of, you know, whether it was listed either starvation or, you know, diarrhea or. It's so profound and moving and horrifying just to hold that document. Yeah. And I've spoken to friends of mine, too, actually, who have very similar stories of members of their family that they lost in the Holocaust. Meaning similar in the sense that the details were kind of lost for decades and that actually, friends of mine that are the same generation as myself were uncovering the secrets of the past, I think, because there's so, you know, one of the interesting things I think about Bessie's story is that she says, you know, I've not told anyone, not even my own children. And I think a lot of survivors live, you know, holding those stories like a horror they don't want to recount or relive. And so there's a lot of these stories that are still have not been uncovered and, you know, are kind of lost in time. And so if you have a living relative who's lived through the Holocaust, you know, to be able to. I mean, the work that the Shoah foundation does to preserve those stories is so vital. It's so important, especially because the population is dwindling rapidly.

[Tonya Moseley]

You mentioned earlier your grandmother and I wondered if you had had a chance to talk with your grandparents about what you had discovered before they passed away.

[Scarlett Johansson]

No, I never did. I, unfortunately, never did. I think it would have been very, very painful. The relatives of mine that I lost in the Holocaust, that were lost in the Holocaust, were actually on my maternal side. My mom's father, his family was from right outside of Warsaw. And again, I mean, he was, I think, very removed from that part of his family. It was almost like a shame. Nobody talked about, like, don't look back, you know. He would have been devastated to have seen those papers, I'm sure.

[Tonya Moseley]

I want to talk a little bit about your career. June, I've heard you say that you knew you wanted to be an actor from the moment you left the womb. And I was just wondering, what kind of career did you envision for yourself?

[June Squibb]

I think I always thought more I would be on stage. I never thought about film or television as a career. I don't know why, but my early career was the theater, of course, and so, you know, that just seemed what it would be.

[Tonya Moseley]

Your Broadway debut was in the musical gypsy in 1959. You developed this nickname, the Dirtiest Mouth on Broadway.

[June Squibb]

Yes, because I had a dirty mouth.

[Tonya Moseley]

Okay, paint a picture for us. Of course, this is npr, so you can't, like, use all the things.

[June Squibb]

No, I won't go into the picture. What did that look like? I was very quick with the curse words, and I looked about 12. I think I was in my 20s when all that happened. 20s or early 30s. And I looked so young. And so it was like, what? What does she say? But I had a dirty mouth. There's no other way to describe it.

[Tonya Moseley]

Tell me about your path into comedy when you stepped into theater. Were you always taking on these kind of roles, or how did you find that voice, that comedic side of you?

[June Squibb]

I start. It was the Cleveland Playhouse. That's where I was before I came to New York. And I went in as a student, and I ended up on staff, and I was there for five years in all. And that's where I started. I had always danced, but I started singing there, and they put me into almost every musical as the comedienne. And so when I went to New York, I went with a group of people from there, and it was just like everybody assumed this is what I was gonna do, and this is what I ended up doing for about 20 years.

[Tonya Moseley]

Scarlett, you mentioned that you grew up in New York and your grandmother also lived there, too. Can you talk about your grandmother and the time that you spent with her as a kid and maybe how that informed you directing this movie?

[Scarlett Johansson]

Oh, I was very close with my grandmother, Dorothy. She was a fiercely independent woman. She lived independently for she was like a safe haven for me. I would escape to her apartment in Hell's Kitchen most weekends. You know, she introduced me to all the free arts in the city that, you know, we would go to Battery park and we would see jazz in Lincoln center and we would go to the Tisch School and see plays and young playwrights and all of the dance performances there. And, you know, she knew every, like, free concert and movie that was playing. And we would go to, you know, the theater in Lincoln center and see independent films. And she was a very vivacious person. You know, I got so much out of my friendship with my grandmother, and I think and she just enjoyed me tremendously. And we would talk about everything, you know, everything our fam we talk about the family dynamics. We would talk, you know, later on. And when I was older, I would talk to her about, you know, boyfriends, sex, our bodies, you know, her experience aging, what she was experiencing physically, politics, all kinds of stuff. You know, we had such a profoundly special, deep friendship, you know. And I think that our friendship really when I read the script of Eleanor the Great, I was very moved by the friendship between Nina and Eleanor because it did remind me very much of the dynamic I had with my grandmother and the ease we felt in one another's company.

[Tonya Moseley]

Let's take a short break, you guys. My guests today are Scarlett Johansson, who directed Eleanor the Great, and June Squibb, who plays the title role. I'm Tonya Moseley. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

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[Tonya Moseley]

I want to talk to you a little bit about your move from acting to directing. So you have been acting Scarlet since you were a kid, and you have worked with some incredible directors. Noah Baumbach, Spike Jonze, the late Robert Redford, whom you starred in the Horse Whisperer when you were 13. And I actually want to play a clip from that movie. And just to give folks a reminder of the movie, which came out in 1998, you played Grace. She's a girl who had gone through a terrible accident with her horse. Both were seriously injured. Your character had part of her leg amputated and she had become withdrawn. And her family has turned to Robert Redford's character, who was an expert with horses, to tame and heal the horse. And he ends up helping Grace as well. And here is a scene with both of you where he is just starting to work with you and the horse and they're getting into his pickup truck. Let's listen.

[Robert Redford]

Can you drive?

[Scarlett Johansson]

Drive. Not all gonna.

[Robert Redford]

Well, it's never too soon to start.

[Scarlett Johansson]

Here.

[Robert Redford]

Get in.

[Scarlett Johansson]

I. I can't.

[Robert Redford]

Come on, I don't have all day. Put the key in. Turn it on.

[Scarlett Johansson]

This one?

[Robert Redford]

Mm. Now, right pedal's the gas, the other one's the brake.

[Scarlett Johansson]

I don't think I. I can with my. With my leg.

[Robert Redford]

Well, there's only one way to find out. Now put it in D and give us a guess.

[June Squibb]

Okay.

[Robert Redford]

We know you can't. I just gotta feel how much. Now give. Try it again.

[June Squibb]

There you go.

[Robert Redford]

Nice. Real nice. Now there's a little road up at the end here. Turn on it. Now just follow this. Listen to it. I'm gonna kind of close my eyes here for a little while. So keep going until you run out of road.

[Scarlett Johansson]

I don't think I can.

[Robert Redford]

It's not a question. If you can, you are.

[June Squibb]

Man.

[Tonya Moseley]

That was my guest today. Scarlett Johansson in 1998, starring in the Horse Whisperer with the late Robert Redford, who also directed that movie. It's so tender Scarlet. How do you feel listening back to that?

[Scarlett Johansson]

Yeah, I mean, I was just remembering that scene. But, you know, you can really hear the warmth and kindness in Bob's voice and also his natural way. You know, I think that was. He had such a natural way about him and his performance and in himself. You know, it's funny to listen to it and not see it. You know, it gives you a whole other perspective on it. But you can, you know, really. It was such an amazing experience shooting that film. We shot in this incredible location in Bozeman. We were staying in Bozeman, Montana and shooting right outside of Livingston. And it was on this gorgeous horse ranch. And we were there for months. And you know, I was a city kid. I came, I was born and raised in Manhattan and I lied to the production. I told them that I was a, you know, equestrian. I mean, I had been. I'd been on a carriage ride before. I'd been on a pony ride at the circus. I mean, every actor's lied for a job for sure. And that was my big lie. But of course, then when I got to the equestrian ring to get on the horse and I came in like my street clothes, like jeans that were like falling off, you know, big baggy jeans and Nikes and I don't think you're traditionally supposed to wear that kind of clothing when you ride a horse. And I remember Rex Peterson, who was the horse trainer on it was like he was from Nebraska and he was like, oh, no. He was like, I got my work cut. He was like, this girl has never been on a horse. Like, I had no idea what I was doing. But by the end of that job, I mean, it was a long job. We was shot at for probably six months or something like that. And it was. And I had, you know, I was riding every day and with Buck Brennaman, who was extraordinary. You know, the character of, of Robert's character is based on the Horse Whisperer, Buck Brennaman. And it was just an unbelievable experience to have as a kid, a city kid and out in the beautiful setting like that, working with, you know, Kristen Scott Thomas and Sam Neill and Bob Redford and Diane Wiest and Chris Cooper. And it was just amazing.

[June Squibb]

It's quite a cast.

[Scarlett Johansson]

Yeah, it was an amazing cast and beautiful setting. And I was doing like real Dramatic. For the first time in my life, it was just magical.

[Tonya Moseley]

Am I right, that the seed for directing was sort of planted in watching Robert Redford?

[Scarlett Johansson]

It really was. I mean, he was so graceful doing it too, because he could seamlessly transition between these intimate scenes like the one you just played. And then he was, you know, it was a huge crew. I mean, the film was based on a very, you know, a best selling novel. And it was. And Disney had. Was making it. And so it was this. It was a big production and he. There had to have been at least, you know, 200 crew members. And he was able to, you know, coordinate these big scenes in this huge riding arena with horses and actors and our dp, Bob Richardson and big techno cranes and, you know, to see him seamlessly do that and then to come and have these intimate conversations with all the cast and I just felt like that's a very. That's an interesting job. That seems like the best job for sure. And I thought that's what I was gonna do, you know, for most of my career. I thought I would do that.

[Tonya Moseley]

You applied to film school, right? Was that with the intent of being a director?

[Scarlett Johansson]

It was. Yeah, it was. And by the time I had gotten. I'd actually gotten into SUNY Purchase and deferred a year and a couple of. I've had a couple of people come up to me and say, you know, your name was called in the roll call the following year. And everybody looked around like, where were you?

[Tonya Moseley]

Because people knew you by.

[Scarlett Johansson]

And I was working. I guess I forgot to let the admissions office know I was not going to be attending that year. I'm sorry, I apologize. I hope I took somebody's place. But yeah, it was, it was with the intention of directing.

[Tonya Moseley]

Were there moments before this film where you considered taking this step, or did it feel like this was just the right time for you to step into that director's role?

[Scarlett Johansson]

Yeah, there was a couple. There's been a couple of times where there was material that I was working on that I thought I could direct, but I don't know necessarily that I think it happened. This happened at the right time for me. I don't think I could have directed a film before now. Not with the same, you know, confidence, which is what you need, because, you know, we've all worked with directors that were not confident. And that's awful for everybody. You know, if they don't have confidence in the vision, then who does? You know, then it becomes kind of a free for all where you're suddenly In a Lord of the Flies style.

[June Squibb]

Situation, the strongest actor wins, or producer.

[Scarlett Johansson]

Or, you know, DP or anybody. I mean, we've all been on those jobs where the DP was suddenly directing it or the producer was suddenly directing it, and that's. You know, that really feels like the wheels are coming off. You need a strong director to lead the mission. You know, it's important.

[Tonya Moseley]

Was there anything in particular or was it time that brought you that confidence in this moment?

[Scarlett Johansson]

I don't know. I mean, I think probably a lot of things I think got me to this moment. I mean, it certainly was putting in the hours and then trying a lot of different things as an actor and working in different circumstances. And then, I mean, I think also having children, for me personally, was transformative. You know, the hardest thing to do. And, I mean, I'm still doing it, raising young children. But also, I think that experience was like, oh, I feel different on the other side of that. Like, I feel more. I don't know, I think capable. Not that that's for everybody, certainly, but for me, it was like a really profound change from one side to the other.

[June Squibb]

I think it was for me, too. It gives you. When you're able to do it, it gives you confidence. It really does.

[Scarlett Johansson]

I agree.

[June Squibb]

You think I could do almost anything. Yeah. I've kept him healthy and alive and everything.

[Scarlett Johansson]

Yeah, I think so, too. It's empowering.

[June Squibb]

Yeah.

[Tonya Moseley]

June, you had this big transition, this big turn from theater to film. Was it a conscious transition? Was it an offering of a particular role? Take me to that time period when you realized that that was a step you could take.

[June Squibb]

It was a period when, all at once, we were getting a lot of. I was living in New York and we were getting more film, and friends of mine who were actors were working on the film. Small roles, but they were, you know, they were enjoying it and getting money and everything. So I went to my agent and I said, everybody I know is working in film, and I think I should be, too. He said, okay. And in a week, I had an audition for Woody Allen, and I got that. And the same casting people were doing Martin Brest's Son of a Woman. And so they brought me in for that, and I got that. And the same casting people were doing Scorsese's Age of Innocence. And I went in and I got that. And all at once, I had done three films, one right after the other. And the Martin Brest film, the role was sort of noticed. The other two were very small, but the Martin Brest film was the role was larger. And people just started saying, my God, you're a film actress now. And in truth, that from that time it did show. That's when it shifted.

[Tonya Moseley]

There are differences between a theater actor and a film actor. And the subtleties, I guess, are the things that we notice the most. What were the biggest challenges for you?

[June Squibb]

All the wires in film, there's so many wires to the lights and everything. And it was just sort of like, wow, that's a lot of wires down there. And I remember the Woody Allen film, the crew, they knew I'd never been on a film set before, and they would have carried me me over these wires if they could have. I just would stand and stare at all the wires because it wasn't like that in the theater. But I do feel, you know, that when you're working in the theatre, you're trying to reach a larger audience. So it's a bigger performance. Not bigger, but you're making that thing of being a little more open a little more to that whole big audience out there. And with film, you' the camera. You're in love with that camera.

[Tonya Moseley]

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we're talking with Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb about their new film, Eleanor the Great. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH air.

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[Tonya Moseley]

I want to talk a little bit about the relationship between your character, Eleanor and this young college student named Nina, who's played by this phenomenal young actress, Erin Kellerman. This character, Nina, she wants to write about Eleanor's story. She heard it while sitting in one of the survivors meetings, and they form this friendship. And I actually want to play a scene of the two of you for the audience to kind of get a sense at the playfulness of your relationship. But the two of you in this scene I'm about to play are at a diner, and Nina recently lost her mother, and she's talking to Eleanor about it. Let's listen.

[June Squibb]

So tell me about your mother.

[Scarlett Johansson]

I'll probably cry if I do so cry.

[June Squibb]

What's the big deal? Hold that thought. Excuse me. The other guy brought the water, but no straws.

[Scarlett Johansson]

Oh, we actually don't have straws. It's like an environmental thing.

[June Squibb]

This diner has a political agenda. You know what? Don't tell me. Just go back and see if you can find two.

[Scarlett Johansson]

I don't need one.

[June Squibb]

Two, thank you. Now, what was I saying?

[Scarlett Johansson]

You want me to cry right in.

[June Squibb]

If there's one thing I've learned, and you can write this down in your notebook, you have to talk about the things that make you sad. Jews fled Poland and never talked about what they went through. They just kept it moving. And there's some good in that, but it can just eat you alive. 80 years later and you'll still be there.

[Tonya Moseley]

That's my guest today, June Squibb in the Eleanor the Great, directed by my other guest, Scarlett Johansson. June, Nina is this one person who seems to possess this clearest view into Eleanor and who she is. And Eleanor is giving Nina that advice. She's also kind of giving herself that advice, too.

[June Squibb]

Yeah, I think she is. I think she's solidifying who she is, really, by telling Nina this, and. But I think she means it. You know, I don't think that that was. That scene was in a diner, and it was fun, and we were shooting the straws at each other. But she's saying some very important things.

[Tonya Moseley]

She's talking about sitting with and sharing stories. And, you know, you mentioned earlier about always looking forward. Is that something that you also sit with in thinking about the. To tell the stories to sit with and the stories to think about, you know, that are the past.

[June Squibb]

I never think much about that. Unless if someone asks, if someone says, what happened to you? In such and such, I would certainly tell them, but I don't think. I think in terms of that.

[Scarlett Johansson]

It's really interesting, though. I will say that, June, like, you're never someone to wax poetic about something or you know, I mean, of course, you've got the best stories ever, and you're an amazing storyteller, but it's not like you I mean, it's such an interest. It's a really unique characteristic of your personality that you don't really sort of you're not nostalgic. And it's it's surprising, I think, because, you know, I have other friends that are several decades older than me, and they do talk about the past sometimes. I think a lot of people live in the past, you know, as a way of coping, I think, with what's with the present in a way, or their fear of the future. And you don't do that at all.

[June Squibb]

It's funny because I've always sort of, oh, boy, what's tomorrow gonna bring? And so that's been very exciting to me.

[Tonya Moseley]

Scarlet, you mentioned you have friends who are several decades older. June, do you have a lot of intergenerational relationships, relationships with younger folks?

[June Squibb]

Yes, I do have one is four years old, I don't know.

[Scarlett Johansson]

Oh, really?

[June Squibb]

My neighbor upstairs, and he and I both love candy and he loves ice pops, and I always have some ice pops. So he just goes to my refrigerator when he comes in. No, I mean, I just and I have young Chris Colfer, who was in Glee for years, is a very close friend of mine, Fred Hechinger, who I did Thelma with. I mean, it just seems natural to me. I mean, if somebody's interesting, they're interesting no matter what their age is.

[Tonya Moseley]

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we're talking with Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb about their new film, Eleanor the Great. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH air.

[Scarlett Johansson]

Congress is back from its summer recess with a lot on its agenda. What's all in store for lawmakers and what does their work mean for you? Every weekday, the NPR Politics podcast unpacks Washington's inner workings. Listen to the NPR Politics podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Tonya Moseley]

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Listen in the NPR app or wherever.

[Tonya Moseley]

You get your podcasts. Short Wave thinks of science as an invisible force showing up in your everyday life, powering the food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. Science is approachable because it's already part of your life. Come explore these connections on the Short Wave podcast from npr. I want to ask you about something that runs deep in Hollywood, and that is something that you've talked quite a bit about. Scarlet, the objectification of women. And. And, you know, you wanted to be a director as a young girl, and your career went into another direction, but you have fought for quite a bit of time this bombshell actor Persona. And you've said, like, that type of role burns bright and quick, and then it's done. You seem to understand that early on. But when did you start to figure out how to fight it?

[Scarlett Johansson]

You know, I think probably in my mid-20s, I felt really frustrated, you know, with the kinds of roles that I was being offered. And it was like my career kind of took this right turn where suddenly I was playing either like, the other woman or the girl piece on the side, you know, the girlfriend or a object of desire. And I mean. And that's okay. I mean, certainly there's. There's. Those parts are. Some of them can be quite interesting and meaty. I did a film called Match Point that Woody Allen directed, which was a very complex version of that person. But you kind of want to do other stuff. And I think, you know, as any actor, you can get. You get sort of sidelined and pigeonholed, and it's your own, I think, your own responsibility to get yourself out of those tight spots. Like, no one's gonna do that for you, you know. And so I had the opportunity to do Arthur Miller play called View from the Bridge that Greg Mosier was directing with Liev Schreiber and Michael Kristoffer and Jessica Hecht, who's in Eleanor the Great as well. And I've always loved Arthur Miller, and I had never done theater before, but I felt it was, oh, a chance to try something challenging that I, you know, hadn't seen in a long time. It was really through that process that I understood, oh, actually, I can sit and I can wait, you know, for the right roles to come, that I suddenly felt more confident in my ability as an actor. And so that's what I did. You know, I rejected the roles that were familiar to me and started working on things that were actively looking for roles that were things I had never done before. And it was a real turning point for me, that play.

[Tonya Moseley]

You actually won the Tony Award for Best Featured actress in 2010. That was a big pivotal time for you and maybe a confirmation of what you were doing.

[Scarlett Johansson]

I guess having, you know, an accolade like that, it shouldn't necessarily count as a confirmation, I guess. You know, I mean, it helps, but actually, what it really was. What was so validating was actually being embraced by the Broadway community. That was what was so validating about that experience was, you know, meeting a whole new group of directors and producers. And I felt like I was embraced, you know, with open arms and kind of being inducted into that family. It was profound and it was. It was validating even more than the Tony win. Although, like I said, that was nice.

[June Squibb]

Doesn't hurt.

[Scarlett Johansson]

It didn't hurt. It didn't hurt.

[June Squibb]

No.

[Tonya Moseley]

June, when you hear Scarlet talking about her path to breaking out of that Persona, what were your early experiences in theater like for you?

[June Squibb]

It's difficult because you are put in a niche and it's an earning niche, it's a comfortable niche. But as Scarlett said, you have to do it yourself. I don't think there's any way anyone's going to do it for you. And in fact, you know, I did the same thing with the musical theater and becoming an actress per se, it's not easy, but, you know, it's ridiculous to have to do that. It was ridiculous for Scarlett to have to do that. But that is what the whole industry tends towards. Certainly.

[Tonya Moseley]

What were some of the ways you navigated it when you were younger?

[June Squibb]

Well, I married my second husband and he was an acting teacher, and he was determined almost more than I was that I was going to become a fine actress. And so he started working with me and that made a tremendous difference. And then I actually had to turn down musical work and I started going doing much more theater. And after a few seasons of doing regional theater as an actress rather than a musical performer, and then I started doing off off Broadway.

[Tonya Moseley]

Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb. Thank you so much for this film and this conversation.

[Scarlett Johansson]

Thank you.

[June Squibb]

Thank you.

[Tonya Moseley]

Scarlett Johansson. And June Squibb's new film is Eleanor the Great. FRESH Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audre Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers. Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CB Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Theresa Madden directed Today's show with Terry Gross. Hi, I'm Tonya Moseley.

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[Scarlett Johansson]

Hey, it's Rachel Martin.

[Tonya Moseley]

I'm the host of Wildcard from npr.

[Scarlett Johansson]

For a lot of my years as a radio host, silence sort of made me nervous. That pause before an answer. Because you don't know what's going on.

[June Squibb]

On the other side of the mic.

[Tonya Moseley]

But these days, I love it.

[June Squibb]

Ah, gosh.

[Scarlett Johansson]

Whoa.

[June Squibb]

Give me a minute. Yeah, yeah, Think.

[Scarlett Johansson]

Listen to the Wildcard podcast only from npr.