‘Schmigadoon!’ co-creator Cinco Paul satirizes Broadway

Summary

Fresh Air – ‘Schmigadoon!’ Co-Creator Cinco Paul Satirizes Broadway

Podcast: Fresh Air (NPR)
Date: April 24, 2026
Host: Terry Gross
Guest: Cinco Paul (Co-creator of “Schmigadoon!”)

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Overview

This episode features a lively and affectionate discussion between Terry Gross and Cinco Paul, co-creator and songwriter behind the show “Schmigadoon!” — a musical that both satirizes and celebrates classic mid-century Broadway. With “Schmigadoon!”’s recent successful transition from Apple TV series to Broadway, Paul reflects on the show's inspiration, musical satire, and his own lifelong love affair with Broadway and movie musicals. The interview, a reprise from 2021, explores Paul’s creative process, influences, and stories from his career in musicals, screenwriting, and beyond.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Inspiration for Schmigadoon!

• Origin Story (08:19)
  • Paul was inspired 25 years ago by watching An American Werewolf in London, drawing parallels to Brigadoon.
  • “What if these two modern guys, instead of stumbling on a town that has a werewolf, stumbled on a town that was in a musical?” (Cinco Paul, 08:23)
  • The concept crystalized when he changed the leads to a couple, allowing for romance and exploration of “what does love mean?”

2. Creating Satirical yet Loving Parodies of Broadway

• Josh vs. Melissa—Musical Lovers & Skeptics (09:28)

  • The dynamic mirrors Paul’s own life: “In many ways, that was Ken [Daurio, co-writer], and in many ways, it’s my wife… he would say, ‘Skip!’ whenever musical theater came on.” (Paul, 10:00)
  • The show balances the perspectives of musical devotees and skeptics for comedic and thematic depth.

• “Corn Puddin” and Song Parodies (10:39–12:17)

  • Created to poke fun at “corny musical numbers” like “This Was a Real Nice Clambake.”
  • “It brings everything to a grinding halt... And so that’s what Corum Puddin is. It’s an ode to those songs. But the fun thing is… in our show, it does move the story forward.” (Paul, 11:08)
  • Key Scene: The “Corn Puddin” number (12:30–13:44) exemplifies the show’s blend of parody and narrative progress.

3. Addressing Queerness in Classic Musicals

• Closeted Characters and Songwriting (13:57–19:46)
  • Discusses crafting satirical songs about closeted gay characters (e.g., “He’s a Queer One, That Man of Mine”), drawing from musical tropes.
  • “She has no clue that her husband is gay, but everything that is evidence that he's gay, she sees as a really positive quality… also really, in many ways, the mayor’s story is at the heart of the show…” (Paul, 15:41)
  • Song excerpt (17:28–19:46): “He’s a queer one, that man o’ mine” performed by Anne Harada, noted for its humor and melody.

4. Cinco Paul’s Life in Music & Musicals

• Musical Upbringing & Early Influences (22:15–24:03)

  • Childhood exposure to Broadway cast albums, especially Camelot, South Pacific, and Guys and Dolls.
  • “I was a weird kid, you know, singing I Wonder what the King is doing tonight in my room, memorizing the lyrics.” (Paul, 22:42)
  • First live experience: played piano in his high school’s “How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying,” which cemented his bond with theater kids.

• Career Trajectory (24:09–27:23)

  • Initially aspired to be a pop songwriter in the vein of Elvis Costello.
  • Shifted focus to screenwriting when faced with practical life decisions (e.g., starting a family).
  • “I always felt very safe in academic settings… I got into USC, and that kind of changed everything and got me on the screenwriting track.” (Paul, 26:39)

• Musicals in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (27:23–29:09)

  • Early work: Wrote a musical for the 150th anniversary of the church—its comedic, “fish-out-of-water” premise foreshadowed his later work.
  • The show led to meeting Ken Daurio, his writing partner.

5. Writing Process & Pitching with Music

• Musical Pitch Sessions (30:43–31:39)
  • Paul and Daurio would often include a sung number in their Hollywood pitches for animated films.
  • “I would generally sing to Ken, and Ken would play the person being very uncomfortable with being sung to…” (Paul, 31:39)
  • This improvisational style seeded the comedic tone later seen in Schmigadoon!.

6. Animated Film Success: Despicable Me & Minions

• Origins & Development (32:43–34:56)
  • The main idea (a villain adopts three girls) came from animator Sergio Pablos; Paul and Daurio fleshed out the story and created iconic characters like the Minions.
  • The look and voices of the Minions attributed to director Pierre Coffin.
  • “We don’t see any of that money [from merch] in animation.” (Paul, 35:35)
  • On Residuals: “You’re not protected by the Writer’s Guild… there’s a lot of money that Ken and I could have gotten from these movies that we have not…” (Paul, 36:02)

7. Broader Film and Comedy Influences

• Musical Comedians & the Marx Brothers (37:13–39:14)

  • Paul’s taste for vaudeville and Tin Pan Alley music stemmed from early exposure to Marx Brothers films.
  • “From the time I was a weird little kid… to be a 10 or 11 year old obsessed with that sort of music was very odd. But I just, I loved it from an early age.” (Paul, 39:14)

• Podcast Theme Song (38:26–39:06)

  • Paul and Daurio produced a playful, vaudeville-style theme for their own podcast Make Him Watch It.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the Idea for Schmigadoon:
  "It opens with two friends hiking through the wilderness, and they're hiking over the countryside. And I suddenly thought, wow, the opening to this is very much like the opening to Brigadoon. And then I thought, what if these two modern guys, instead of stumbling on a town that has a werewolf, stumbled on a town that was in a musical?"
  — Cinco Paul (08:19–08:31)

• On Songwriting Satire:
  “What would be the worst possible song to subject him to? You know, and it's just, oh, a song just about food and corn pudding Sudden came to me as just kind of the perfect representation of these sort of songs. Like the ‘It's a Real Nice Clam Bake’. Like, who cares?”
  — Cinco Paul (11:08–11:31)

• On Closeted Gay Characters in Musicals:
  “The mayor’s story is at the heart of the show because he is one of the characters that back in the day could only be queer coded…”
  — Cinco Paul (15:41–15:57)

• On Being a Teenage Broadway Fan:
  “I was a weird kid, you know, singing I Wonder what the King is doing tonight in my room, memorizing the lyrics.”
  — Cinco Paul (22:42)

• On Residuals & Writers Guild:
  “We don’t get residuals from the movies in animation. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine, and I feel like it's unfair and not right, because it takes as much work to write an animated movie. It takes more, actually, than to write a live action movie.”
  — Cinco Paul (35:41–36:02)

• On His Podcast Theme:
  “I wrote the song.”
  — Cinco Paul, about the ‘Make Him Watch It’ podcast jingle (38:28)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [08:19] Origin story of Schmigadoon!
• [10:39–12:17] Writing & discussing “Corn Puddin’”
• [13:57–19:46] Parody, queerness, writing “He’s a Queer One, That Man of Mine”
• [22:22–24:03] Early love of musicals, first piano gig in high school musicals
• [24:09–27:23] Pop music ambitions, career path shift to film
• [27:23–29:09] Church musical, meeting Ken Daurio
• [31:39] Pitching with musical numbers
• [32:43–36:02] Developing Despicable Me, Minions, and writing credits
• [37:13–39:14] Marx Brothers, musical comedy influence
• [38:26–39:06] “Make Him Watch It” podcast theme

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Tone and Language

The conversation is witty and warm, full of musical references, Broadway inside jokes, and affectionate satire. Cinco Paul’s genuine enthusiasm for classic musical theater, as well as his playful comedic style, come through, matched by Terry Gross’s curiosity and humor.

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Summary Conclusion

For musical fans or anyone interested in how satire and love for a genre can coexist, this episode offers an insightful behind-the-scenes look at Schmigadoon! and its creative mind. Cinco Paul is revealed as a lifelong musical aficionado with deep affection for both the highs and comic lows of Broadway’s golden age—now lovingly lampooned and celebrated on stage and screen.

Transcript

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[David Biancolli]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Biancool. Earlier this week, the musical Schmigadoon opened on Broadway to lots of applause and rave reviews. The New York Times called it a blast, which it is. I saw it in previews last Friday and loved it. It's also a blast from the past, a warm hearted embrace and spoof of classic Broadway musicals, from Oklahoma. And the Sound of Music to Carousel and the Music Man. The title Schmigadoon is a play on another musical, classic Brigadoon, in which two tourists stumble upon a magical village with its own eccentric inhabitants and rules. In Schmigadoon, the tourists are a loving couple, Josh and Melissa. They're in love, but after a few years of living together, they're also in kind of a rut. Schmigadoon originated in 2021 as a six part miniseries on Apple TV, co created by Cinco Paul and Ken Dario. Cinco Paul, who wrote the music, lyrics and book for the Broadway version, has reshaped and condensed those six TV episodes into one night of theater, but has retained all the key songs, characters and plot twists. The original TV version began when the two doctors, Melissa and Josh, met cute at a hospital vending machine, then jumped into bed. On Broadway, the vending machine turns into a bed, a clever transition that saves time and makes the same point, only funnier. Director and choreographer Christopher Gattelli also choreographed the TV version, so everything I loved about the full ensemble staging of such infectiously giddy numbers as Corn Puddin' has arrived on Broadway intact. Corn Puddin, which sets the tone early in the show, is confident in the way it both echoes and winks at old musical conventions, and that confidence is well earned. Corn Puddin won an Emmy for Paul that year for Outstanding original Music and Lyrics. On Broadway, Josh is played by Alex Brightman, a Tony nominee for his starring stage roles in Beetlejuice and School of Rock. Melissa is played by Sarah Chase from TV's Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. Their comic timing together is flawless, and the supporting cast features a lot of standouts. The Apple TV version of Schmigadoon was divided into two different six episode seasons when they premiered. I raved about both in season one, to which the Broadway musical closely adheres Josh and Melissa happen upon a mysterious land, but can't leave it until they find true love. When first they cross that magical bridge into Schmigadoon, the townspeople instantly prepare to greet them by dancing and singing. Melissa, who grew up loving musicals, is delighted Josh is not on tv. Melissa was played by Cecily Strong, and Josh was played by Keegan Michael Key.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Okay, what is this

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

now?

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Why is music coming from everywhere?

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

Welcome to our little town where friends

[Cinco Paul]

are all you meet and you will

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

never see a frown.

Hey, everyone. Hey there, Pete. We bet you're probably wondering what we call the most beautiful, wonderful, magical grace of all.

[Cinco Paul]

What is happening?

[Podcast/Ad Announcer]

It must be something they do for tourists, like Colonial Williamsburg.

[David Biancolli]

The second season of Schmigadoon ran two years later, featuring most of the cast members returning in different roles. The twist was that when Melissa and Josh returned to Schmigadoon, it's now populated by the next generation of musicals, typified by echoes of Sweet Charity, Chicago Hair and Sweeney Todd, the demon barber of Fleet Street. The second season was called Schmacago, and it featured the same cast, most of them in new roles, which the Broadway production could blaze a new trail by emulating. There's no reason Broadway's new hit musical In Time shouldn't have a sequel ready and waiting in the wings, with cast members from Schmigadoon ready to sign up for Schmuckago. Not, for example, with songs like Do We Shock youk, in which the ladies at a nightclub line up on stage, as in Bob Fosse's Sweet Charity, to sing some provocative lyrics, although Josh and Melissa in the audience are anything but outraged.

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

Do we shock you, make you ill at ease? Do we offend your tender sensibilities? There's no norm we won't transgress. Look, there's a man and he's wearing a dress.

[Podcast/Ad Announcer]

Yeah, I mean, I've literally seen every season of Drag Race.

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

So do we scare you?

Are you too real?

[David Biancolli]

In time, Schmocago may make the transition to Broadway, just as Schmigadoon has, but for now, you can get tickets to Schmigadoon or watch both seasons on Apple tv. Meanwhile, here's an interview Terry Gross conducted with Cinco Paul when the TV musical first premiered back in 2021, when he spoke with Terry. Paul had written all the songs for the TV version of Schmigadoon and had co created and co written the series with his writing partner, Ken Dario. Previously, the two of them had written the animated films Despicable Me, the Secret Life of pets and the Dr. Seuss adaptations from Horton Hears a who and the Lorax. In the original TV version of Schmigadoon, the small town of the title looks like a stage or movie set from the early 20th century. The women are wearing prairie dresses with long petticoats, and the men are dressed like they're in a barbershop quartet. It turns out that in this town, life is a musical. Let's pick up on the scene in which Melissa and Josh, played by Cecily Strong and Keegan Michael Key, first encounter the townspeople of Schmigadoon. The people start singing about their town, which makes Melissa smile and Josh cringe. See if you can guess which musical inspired this particular number.

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

Speedo. A dude where the sun shines bright from July to June and the air's as sweet as a macaroo Shake a do. A two bears born and safe Has a new cocoon and our hearts all glow like a harvest moon Shake a tomb she gotoon where the men are men and the cows are cows and the farmers smile as we push them down and the trees are tall and we call it Shingar do.

Our school marm is Emma Tate. She helps our kids to punctuate still unmarried at 28.

[Terry Gross]

Cinco Paul, welcome to FRESH air. Thank you so much for creating this series.

[Cinco Paul]

Thank you for having me.

[Terry Gross]

How did you come up with the idea of a musical about people trapped in a musical set in the early 20th century?

[Cinco Paul]

Well, it's kind of crazy. I had the idea for this almost 25 years ago, and it was while I was watching the movie An American Werewolf in London, of all things, one of my favorite movies. And it opens with two friends hiking through the wilderness, and they're hiking over the countryside. And I suddenly thought, wow, the opening to this is very much like the opening to Brigadoon. And then I thought, what if these two modern guys, instead of stumbling on a town that has a werewolf, stumbled on a town that was in a musical? And that was the germ of the idea. But I didn't really know what to do with it. So it was one of those that I just filed away. But what really cracked it for me was, oh, instead of two friends, it should be a couple. So that it is more of a romantic comedy and it can be more about what does love mean? What's true love really mean? I think that's why for 25 years, nothing happened with it, because it was. It needed that addition to really crack it.

[Terry Gross]

So the Cecily Strong character loves musicals The Keegan Michael Key character hates musicals. Why did you want him to hate musicals?

[Cinco Paul]

Well, I thought it was really important. I mean, first of all, it's really funny to have someone who. Who hates musicals be stuck in a musical, but also for him to be the eyes and ears of the people, unlike me, who don't love musicals. And in many ways, that was Ken, and in many ways, it's my wife, you know.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, boy, you're trapped.

[Cinco Paul]

I'll tell you. Ken and I played music all the time when we were writing, and whatever musical theater song would somehow pop up in my mix, he would say, skip. So it was really important for the show to have that perspective.

[Terry Gross]

Some musicals have really corny scenes in them, and the kind of scene that always bores me is the picnic scene. Whereas, like, this was a real nice clam bake. I'm really glad we came. It's like, can we skip that? Can we skip that and get to the good stuff? And I never really understand the function that they serve. And you kind of have a song parodying that called Corn Puddin.

[Cinco Paul]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

And so the reason why they're singing about corn Pudding is it's their first morning in town, and they're sitting on the porch and about to have breakfast, and they're asked if they want some corn Puddin, and they don't even know what Corn Puddin is. And then the town just starts singing about how great corn pudding is. So I'd like you to talk a little bit about what you think of those moments in musicals where you have to sing about food or a picnic or a clambake.

[Cinco Paul]

Yeah. I mean, Corn Pudding came out of initially was thinking, what is the song that is most going to annoy Keegan's character? What would be the worst possible song to subject him to? You know, and it's just, oh, a song just about food and corn pudding Sudden came to me as just kind of the perfect representation of these sort of songs. Like the. It's a real nice clam bake. Like, who cares? Like, you know, the songs really should move the story forward in some way. And I think that the worst example is Shipupi from Music man, which is. It brings everything to a grinding halt. And then this Marcellus character is just singing this nonsense song that has nothing to do with anything. And so that's what Corum Puddin is. It's an ode to those songs. But the fun thing is that, ironically, in our show, it does move the story forward because gets Keegan to say, okay, we're leaving. We're not gonna spend another minute in this town.

[Terry Gross]

Why don't we hear Corden Puddin? And we'll also hear the Cecily Strong character kind of join in in a verse, much to the Keegan Michael Key character's annoyance.

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

My guy loves corn Puddin. I got the recipe. So if he wants my pudding, you'll have to marry me.

Oh, you'll have to marry me. You put the corn in the pudding? And the pudding in the bowl? You put the bowl in the belly? Cause it's good for the soul? You put the corn in the pudding? And the pudding in the bowl? You put the bowl in your belly? Cause it's good for the soul. Who wants corn pudding? We want corn pudding. Who wants corn pudding? We want corn pudding.

[Podcast/Ad Announcer]

I think they want us to take a break.

[Cinco Paul]

I'm not singing and you're not singing.

[Podcast/Ad Announcer]

Come on.

[Cinco Paul]

Could be fun. No, do not.

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

Never had corn pudding.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

Why?

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

And it may be a waste? But if you've got some extry, Extry. I sure would like a taste.

Oh, she sure would like a taste. Corn porn. Corn. Corn. Yum.

[Terry Gross]

The music is kind of like a hoedown.

[Cinco Paul]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

It just reminded me, too, that when I was in school, we had to learn some of that kind of dancing, you know, like square dancing.

[Cinco Paul]

Yeah, that was part of the curriculum somehow.

[Terry Gross]

Why are we learning this? We live in Brooklyn. Like, what are you thinking? I want to get to another song. We all know that so many performers on Broadway historically have been gay, and it's only in recent years that they've been able to be out. And it's only recently that there are actually musicals about gay people who are out of the closet. So you have a few really funny references to, like, closeted gay people in musicals. One of the really funny songs, the mayor, who's played by Alan Cumming, is secretly gay, and it's a secret he's never disclosed to anybody. And he sings a song that kind of is a secret love kind of song.

[Cinco Paul]

But yes, where he inadvertently reveals to Cecily's character that he's gay because she

[Terry Gross]

has gaydar and no one in the town does.

[Cinco Paul]

Yes, exactly.

[Terry Gross]

But the mayor's wife sings a song that's called He's a Queer One, that Man of Mine. She has no clue that he's gay, but she knows that he's different from the other men. And usually in those songs that's like, he's wonderful. He's so different from other men. But in this one, it's kind of like he's so different than other men. I want you to talk about writing this because this is an example of a song that I don't think closely adheres to another song. It's a kind of. There's references to other songs in it, including you're a Queer One, Julie Jordan. That's from Carousel, right?

[Cinco Paul]

That's from Carousel, yeah.

[Terry Gross]

So. But talk about writing this and what you wanted to do with it.

[Cinco Paul]

Yeah, I mean, to me, there is a trope in these musicals. Often there's a song called Something Wonderful from King and I and another song from Carousel called what's the Use of Wandron? You know, these women who sing songs where our, you know, he has maybe these flaws, but I still love him, you know, and so I wanted to play with that. But this is a song where she has no clue that her husband is gay, but everything that is evidence that he's gay, she sees as a really positive quality. Like he doesn't look at other women, you know, and for her, it's all these really positive qualities. But also really, in many ways, the mayor's story is at the heart of the show because he is one of the characters that back in the day could only be queer coded, you know, but because we have modern characters in Schmigadoo now, and Cecily's character really likes to get involved in people's lives, she helps push him to, you know, proclaim to the whole town who he really is. And Alan does such an amazing job with his character and really gives him depth and heart in a way that elevates it even beyond what I'd hoped he'd bring.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, he's great in it. This clip will start with Cecily Strong speaking, and I should say that the mayor's last name is Menlove. Another little clue. Okay, so here's He's a queer one. And this is anne Harada singing.

[Podcast/Ad Announcer]

Mrs. Menlove, forgive me for asking, but how much do you really know about your husband?

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

That's a good question. He's a hard man to know it seems different Some men like to fight and curse they smoke and drink and yell Leave you flat or even worse they stay and make life hell but my man is gentle as smile Soft and sentimental as any lace adorned a valentine He's a queer one that man oh my

[David Biancolli]

oh, honey.

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

Some men stumble home at dark Want dinner and dessert Other men have eyes that spark at every passing skirt but my man loves cookin' I've never caught him looking at other gals More young petite or fine. He's a queer one, that man oh my.

[Podcast/Ad Announcer]

This was literally me in high school.

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

Show me any other man more tender or expressive. I only wish that nightly he were slightly more aggressive.

[Podcast/Ad Announcer]

There it is.

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

Sometimes it may seem like he is too good to be true. Like there's a man that I can't see Just aching to break through. I wish I could free him so I could finally see him the way he truly is and let him shine. He's a queer one, that man oh my.

[Terry Gross]

That's music from Schmigadoon, the loving satire of 40s and early 1950s musicals. And my guest, Cinco Paul, co created the series, co wrote it and wrote all the songs. Oh, that's really, it's a funny song, but it's also, it's a lovely song. It's a nice melody.

[Cinco Paul]

Yeah. I mean, that was the intention. I never wanted the songs to be too jokey, if that makes sense. You know, I really wanted them like, oh, that could genuinely have been a song sung in an undiscovered Rogers and Hammerstein musical. And. And then it ends in a very, you know, Ann does an amazing job with a song, and it ends in a really sweet spot right where she sort of wishes he could be who he really is. She suspects that he's not being his true self. She doesn't know what that actually means, but she really wishes the best for him and loves him.

[David Biancolli]

Cinco Paul speaking to Terry Gross in 2021. Coming up, we'll continue their conversation. And film critic Justin Chang reviews the new film Blue Heron. I'm David Biancooli, and this is FRESH air.

[Cinco Paul]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Please, no song. I'll do anything.

[Podcast/Ad Announcer]

Guys, we're actually in the middle of some.

[Cinco Paul]

You can't plow a field without hitting some stone.

[Podcast/Ad Announcer]

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[Terry Gross]

How are you first exposed to musicals? Like, where did you grow up? Did you see music theater? Was this all through movies?

[Cinco Paul]

I grew up in Phoenix, Arizona, so I didn't see a lot of shows live. But my mom really loved musicals, and she had cast recordings for. I specifically remember Camelot, you know, loving as a pretty young kid and listening to it. I was a weird kid, you know, singing I Wonder what the King is doing tonight in my room, memorizing the lyrics. But I remember, you know, Camelot in South Pacific and Guys and Dolls and hearing those a lot. And so that really, that's where my love affair with musicals began. But also, I remember seeing Singing in the Rain for the first time as a kid and Donald o' Connor doing Make Him Laugh. And I thought that was the greatest thing I'd ever seen in my life. It was so funny, and I just loved it. So that's really where it began when I was a kid. And then I think a real key moment was I think I was 14 and was asked to play piano for my high school's musical. And it was how to succeed in business without really trying. And that really changed everything, because then suddenly that became my tribe, you know, the theater kids, and they embraced me, and, you know, I desperately wanted to be on stage, but probably because I didn't really belong there, they kept saying, no, but, Cinco, we need you on the piano. Please continue playing piano for us. But that's really where it deepened into something different. It became my community, you know, did

[Terry Gross]

you want to continue in the musical community? Because that's not the direction you went in until now.

[Cinco Paul]

You know, in college, I always sort of, you know, I wanted to be on stage. And so in college, I tried out for several musicals and didn't get in. And I did end up playing piano for a bunch of them. And so at some point I realized, well, maybe that's not my thing. And then I was really interested in being a pop musician. You know, I'd always written songs from a pretty early age. And so I think there was maybe a sense that, well, musical theater isn't cool, and I want to be Elvis Costello, you know, and so that's why I focused. But people would continually tell me, oh, that sounds like something from a musical. And I was really offended. I'd say, like, what are you talking about? This is rock and roll, you know? And so I think life was telling me that that's where I belonged, but. But. And then, you know, life is just weird. You get. You make little choices and it pulls you in different directions. And I got pulled into screenwriting and then ended up writing all these animated movies, and I sort of set that part of me aside for a while.

[Terry Gross]

Can you sing a few bars of one of your Elvis Costello ish songs?

[Cinco Paul]

Oh, my goodness, let's see. Of man's last mistake and woman's first hurt to the final heartache From a fall to a flirt I won't forgive and forget anymore oh, my gosh. I haven't sung that song since I was, like, 19. That's a Cinco Paul classic called Forgive and Forget.

[Terry Gross]

You had a band?

[Cinco Paul]

Yeah, you know, I had a band in high school, but it was kind of like me just forcing them to accompany me for all my songs. So it wasn't a true band in the real sense. And then I just would do solo stuff. You know, I learned to play a bunch of instruments, and then I'd go into the recording studio and make albums. And really, that was kind of my dream, you know, I wanted to be Ellis Costello, Randy Newman, Paul McCartney, you know, all my heroes. And there was a point where I realized I got married and we were expecting our first child, and we were in North Carolina at the time. My wife was in med school. And the plan was always, after med school, we'll go to LA and I'll pursue my music career. But with impending fatherhood upon me, suddenly I started to really question, like, what is that going to be? And is that the life I want? So I got the idea to apply to film school. And I always felt very safe in academic settings. So I thought, I'll apply to film school, and if I get into USC or ucla, that'll mean that maybe that's the direction my career should go. And I got into usc, and that kind of changed everything and got me on the screenwriting track, as opposed to the pop musician track.

[Terry Gross]

Now, we left something out of your music career, your early music career. You're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, which most people, I think, know as the Mormon Church. Your mother was a part of the church. Your father was Catholic, but not practicing, and you got baptized, I think, after. Right before or right after graduating from Yale?

[Cinco Paul]

No. Right, yeah, right before I headed off to college.

[Terry Gross]

Okay. And there was a musical celebrating the 150th anniversary of the church. And I think you wrote the songs for that.

[Cinco Paul]

I wrote everything. I wrote the book and the music and lyrics for that. It was about a modern girl and her great, great great grandmother who was a pioneer girl who switched places.

[Terry Gross]

Gosh, that's almost a little bit like Schmegadoon, where the modern and the past are colliding.

[Cinco Paul]

I know. I feel like maybe I've been writing the same thing over and over my whole career.

[Terry Gross]

So what was was it a comedy or was it serious? Was it.

[Cinco Paul]

Yeah, it was comedy, which was, you know, sort of very different. Usually these productions are pretty serious, you know, and reverential and a funny. Look at, you know, this. It was two fish out of water scenarios. Right. They both switched places with each other. But, you know, it was only a couple performances, but it was really well received. And the biggest thing that happened in that was that's where I met my writing partner, Ken Dario. He auditioned and was in the show. He, unlike me, is someone who belongs on stage. And we became friends. We formed a band. And then at some point I said, let's write a script together. And that changed everything.

[Terry Gross]

But getting back to the musical that you did for the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, what was the reaction in the church to the musical?

[Cinco Paul]

Everybody really liked it. It got a bunch of laughs because I think people just weren't used to seeing one of these productions and have it be really a comedy at its heart. And so they actually like seven years later, they revived it. So I've had a revival of a musical and they did it again seven years later but haven't done it since then. It's just sort of been languishing.

[David Biancolli]

Cinco Paul speaking with Terry Gross in 2021. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

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[Terry Gross]

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[Terry Gross]

So you and your writing partner, Ken Dario, used to sing your pitches when you were pitching a film idea. So, please, you must sing one of your pitches.

[Cinco Paul]

Well, see that. I mean, we wouldn't sing the pitch, right? We wouldn't say, this is a story about a guy, you know, who is, you know, in trouble with the law. No, that would be a nightmare. We would have been kicked out of everybody's office. But we would sing in our pitches, like if there were a musical moment. And we would often put a musical moment in our stories. So it was a moment, you know, I guess you'd call it non diegetic, when people are singing as part of the story. So we would. We would generally sing that.

[Terry Gross]

Can you give us an example?

[Cinco Paul]

There was. We were pitching our take on a movie called Car wars about two rival car dealers, and one becomes friends with the other. And so he would sing to him, you are so beautiful to me. And so it was kind of a shtick we do. So I would generally sing to Ken, and Ken would play the person being very uncomfortable with being sung to, and then I would sing the song to him. And we'd sort of play off the comedy of that, which I guess is in many ways a lot of the comedy that's in Schmigadoon. But it was fun because I would always push it further than we had ever done in rehearsal during the actual pitch meeting. And we would play with each other in that way. There was a lot of improv in our pitches because we had a partner there. And so that's often how the musical part of it would play out.

[Terry Gross]

Let me ask you about Despicable Me. And this is a character who's competing to be the worst villain in the world. And he's not that great of a villain, really. So he's gonna try to steal the moon. And what he's done is, like, you know, he stole a replica of the Eiffel Tower and.

[Cinco Paul]

A replica and the Statue of Liberty from Vegas.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, a replica from Vegas. Like a souvenir, basically. How did you come up with the idea for this?

[Cinco Paul]

Well, the original idea came from a Spanish animator named Sergio Pablos who had pitched Chris Meledandri the idea of a villain who adopted three little girls in order to pull off a heist. And so Chris then pitched that to me and Ken, and instantly we fell in love with the idea. And it was really the broadest of concepts, I think, that Sergio had come up with. And so then it was up to us to flesh it out and come up with, because I don't think the moon was part of that story. And so that's where it started. But then it was our job to write the complete story and come up with all the characters.

[Terry Gross]

And you created the Minions, which are these animated henchmen. Would you describe what they look like for anyone who hasn't seen the film?

[Cinco Paul]

If there are people out there who have not been exposed to Minions, more power to you.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, they kind of took off.

[Cinco Paul]

They're like these little yellow pill, like, creatures that have goggles on, either their two or one single eyes, and they wear blue overalls. And really, I have to give much of the credit for the Minions to Pierre Coffin, who, who was the director, and he really came up with that design and the concept. Ken and I wrote that Gru had Minions, but it was really Pierre who came up with the concept, and he does all the voices for the Minions as well.

[Terry Gross]

Was there a whole lot of Minions merch?

[Cinco Paul]

It's interesting. When the first movie came out, we couldn't get anyone to make toys or anything. They tried everywhere, and no one was interested. And then suddenly the movie came out and, you know, was a surprise hit, and the Minions took off, and then suddenly, you know, everybody was knocking down their door. But initially, it's funny, no one was interested, but now they're everywhere, unfortunately. My apologies.

[Terry Gross]

Does that make more money than the movie even does?

[Cinco Paul]

I don't know, because, you know, we don't see any of that money in animation.

[Terry Gross]

Is that the merch money?

[Cinco Paul]

No.

[Terry Gross]

Wow.

[Cinco Paul]

We don't get residuals from the movies in animation. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine, and I feel like it's unfair and not right, because it takes as much work to write an animated movie. It takes more, actually, than to write a live action movie. But you're not protected by the Writer's Guild, so why is that?

[Terry Gross]

Why aren't you in the Writer's Guild?

[Cinco Paul]

It's a long story, but really, when animation started out, they didn't have writers, and so it's never fallen under the auspices of the Writers Guild. There's people pushing for it and trying to make it happen. And I think in TV animation, they've gotten more power for animation writers, but it's one of those things, if the studio doesn't have to give it, they won't. And so you can imagine there's a Lot of money that Ken and I could have gotten from these movies that we have, not because we don't get residuals.

[Terry Gross]

Wow, that's just really shocking to me. I had no idea. Is that one of the reasons why you're kind of done for now with animation?

[Cinco Paul]

Not really, because I know it sounds super corny, but it really was never about the money for me, you know, but for me, it was just, you know, we were doing all these sequels, and I just was not interested in that and really wanted to stretch some other muscles, particularly the songwriting muscle. And so that's really why I decided to leave.

[Terry Gross]

What are some of the movies and some of the cartoons that you grew up with?

[Cinco Paul]

The first cartoon I saw that really impacted me, I think, was the Jungle Book. I loved that movie so much, and the songs in that are so good. And then, I have to say, the Marx Brothers have played a huge role in my life. I'm sure that's why I ended up writing movies. I saw my first Marx Brothers movie when I was 10 on TV, and I fell in love with the Marx Brothers and became obsessed. And that really led to my love of movies and reading about movies and then starting to make my own with our family's Super 8 camera, which we'd gotten for home movies, you know, on vacation, and suddenly I used it just to make movies with all the neighborhood kids.

[Terry Gross]

You love movies, and you and your writing partner Ken Dario, have a podcast. Is this still going on your podcast?

[Cinco Paul]

Yeah, it's called Make Him Watch it, and we make each other watch a movie we've never seen before.

[Terry Gross]

Then you have a couple episodes where you share your opinions of films of the 80s and films of the 90s. But I want to play the theme song from this, because I think it's you and Ken actually singing the song.

[Cinco Paul]

It is. I wrote the song.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, you wrote the song. And so, in the spirit of turning your life into a musical, I just want to play the opening theme from your podcast. Make him watch it.

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

Make him watch it. Make him watch it. There's lots of movies Ken hasn't seen. Some Cinco hasn't seen too. So now that there's COVID 19, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna make him watch it for a podcast. We can't wait to make him watch it with Cinco and Ken.

[Terry Gross]

I really love that. It's so like, vaudeville era. Did you.

[Cinco Paul]

Yes.

[Terry Gross]

How were you introduced to music of that period?

[Cinco Paul]

I mean, it probably came from my love of the Marx Brothers. You know. And you know, a lot of their movies were kind of musicals. You know, the Coconuts, Animal Crackers, Horse Feathers has a lot of songs in it. So I think that led to my love of these 1920s songs, you know, the Tin Pan Alley stuff. And from the time I was a weird little kid, Terry, I have to say, like to be a 10 or 11 year old kid obsessed with that sort of music was very odd. But I just, I loved it from an early age.

[Terry Gross]

Well, listen, congratulations on Shmiga Dune. Please do a season two and it's been great to talk with you from

[Cinco Paul]

your mouth to God's ears. Terry, I have to say it is so meaningful to me that you like the show and that you responded to it like this. Thank you so much.

[David Biancolli]

Cinco Paul speaking with Terry Gross in 2021. You can stream both seasons of Schmigadoon on Apple TV. Paul wrote the book, music and lyrics for the current production of Schmikadoon, now on Broadway. After a break, Justin Chang reviews the new film Blue Heron. This is FRESH air.

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This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. No idea where to sell? Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel. It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run and grow your business without the struggle. Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the Internet's best converting checkout. To help you turn them from browsers to buyers. Go to Shopify.com NPR to take your business to the next level.

[David Biancolli]

Today, our film critic Justin Chang recommends Blue Heron, the first feature from the writer director Sophie Romvari. It's a semi autobiographical drama that touches on Romvari's childhood in British Columbia and her family's experience of tragedy. The film has won numerous prizes at international film festivals and is now playing in select US Theaters. Here is Justin's review.

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There have been countless coming of age movies about the summer that changed everything. A season marked by a move to a new town, a fleeting but memorable romance or a shattering crisis. It's not easy to make a film in this vein that feels fresh or personal, but the Canadian writer director Sophie Romvari has somehow done both with her exquisite, achingly sad debut feature Blue Heron. It's based on events from her own life, which she previously explored in her 2020 documentary short Still Processing. That title could just as well have applied to Blue Heron, in which she peers back into her past and tries to make sense of what she finds. Most of the story takes place over one summer in the late 1990s. Eight year old Sasha, played by Elul Govan, has just moved with her Hungarian immigrant parents and three older brothers to a small town on Vancouver Island. Life here is idyllic in many ways. The island is beautiful and peaceful, and Sasha enjoys spending time outdoors with her family and making new friends. But a cloud hovers over everything and seems to darken as the summer goes on. Sasha's oldest brother, Jeremy, played by Edik Beddoes, isn't adjusting well to the move, to put it mildly. He's peevish with his parents and siblings and acts out in ways that range from annoying to dangerous. He climbs up on the roof, he wanders off without telling anyone. He shoplifts and gets arrested. In one relatively mild instance of misbehavior, Jeremy lies down on the front porch one afternoon, keeping so still that a neighbor calls the house, alarmed that he might be dead.

[Cinco Paul]

No, no, I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm with you. Yes. Yeah.

[Schmigadoon Cast Member]

Who was that?

[Cinco Paul]

Jason from across the street. He wanted to let us know that our son is dead on the front step. I told him we are aware and not to worry. He will come back to life soon.

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Sasha's parents are sensitively played by Adam Tompa and Iringo Raiti, who show us a loving marriage that's come under all kinds of strain. There's Jeremy, of course, but there are also the challenges of settling into a new home in a still fairly new country. Sasha's father spends a lot of time working on his computer and his wife is frustrated at having to do most of the housework and child rearing. But Roari doesn't exaggerate these pressure points, nor does she overplay Jeremy's behavior. The film is meticulous about showing the family's genuinely happy times, including those rare moments when Jeremy cracks a smile and comes out of his shell. It's as if Ronvari wants to be fair to Jeremy, to not let his diagnosis of oppositional defiant disorder define him. In time, though, as Jeremy keeps acting out, the situation becomes untenable. And a social worker, one of many professionals brought in to help, recommends that Jeremy be sent away. In its dramatic restraint and psychological insight, Blue Heron reminded me of two exceptional recent films about parents and kids, after sun and Janet Planet, both of which were also partly inspired by their directors childhoods. Rom is the most carefully constructed memory piece I've seen in some time. You get the sense that she's trying to put together what she remembers as precisely as she can, right down to the clunky 90s Windows interface on Sasha's dad's computer. Ramvari treats the camera as an instrument of subjectivity. For the most part, we see mainly what Sasha sees and how she sees it. Key moments are glimpsed from odd, oblique angles. Events that Sasha never witnessed or perhaps forgotten, are not dramatized at all. At times, the camera pans idly from left to right, a movement that simulates the act of sifting through the past. At roughly the halfway mark, Blue Heron makes a daring leap. Suddenly, we are following an older version of Sasha, played by Amy Zimmer, who is now, like robbing, keen to make sense of her family history. But the way she goes about it triggers a surprising twist that gently toys with our sense of time and reality. In asking what she or anyone could have done differently, Romvari laments the imperfections of memory, the effects of mental illness and the limitations of even the most loving family. This beautiful and perceptive film feels like something summoned from deep within her consciousness and piped directly into ours.

[David Biancolli]

Film critic Justin Chang reviewed the new film Blue Heron by Sophie Rober on Monday's show. Actor, writer and carpenter Nick Offerman. He stars in the new critically acclaimed TV show Margo's Got Money Troubles, based on the popular book of the same name. Offerman won an Emmy Award for his work on the series the Last of Us, and he's best known for playing Ron Swanson on the comedy Parks and Recreation. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram prfreshair. You can subscribe to our YouTube [e-mail] this is FRESH AIR. We're rolling out new videos with in studio guests, behind the scenes shorts and iconic interviews from the archive. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our senior producer today is Thea Challand. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shurock, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper for Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley. I'm David Biancoul.