'Seinfeld' Writer & 'Borat' Director Larry Charles

Summary

Fresh Air with Larry Charles: A Deep Dive into Comedy, Creativity, and Personal Transformation

Episode: 'Seinfeld' Writer & 'Borat' Director Larry Charles
Release Date: June 17, 2025
Hosts: Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley

In this compelling episode of NPR's Fresh Air, host Terry Gross engages in an intimate and profound conversation with Larry Charles, a luminary in the world of comedy and film. Charles, renowned for his pivotal role in shaping iconic TV shows like Seinfeld and directing groundbreaking films such as Borat and Bruno, shares insights from his expansive career and his latest memoir, Comedy: 40 Years of Blood, Guts, and Laughter.

Facing Mortality: The Catalyst for Self-Reflection

The conversation opens with Larry Charles discussing a pivotal moment in his life—a heart attack in March 2024. This brush with death served as a profound catalyst for introspection. Charles explains how this experience compelled him to reassess his life and behaviors, leading to a more honest portrayal of himself in his memoir.

“[01:55] Larry Charles: I think it gave me a little more perspective on my own mortality... I wanted to go back and be a little more honest and take a little bit more responsibility for my behavior.”

He acknowledges his past selfishness and the prolonged period he stayed in a deteriorating marriage to avoid hurting his wife, ultimately expressing deep regret over the pain he caused.

Crafting Comedy: From Seinfeld to Stand-Up Risks

Larry Charles delves into his early days joining Seinfeld during its second season. Contrary to typical industry practices, he had little preparation, receiving only a few scripts before the show's inception. This organic development contributed to the unique and groundbreaking humor that Seinfeld became known for.

“[03:15] Larry Charles: None. I mean, the only thing I had was Larry had given me a couple of the scripts before the show premiered.”

One of his most memorable contributions to Seinfeld is the episode "The Library," which features a hilariously intense confrontation between Jerry Seinfeld and Philip Baker Hall's character, Mr. Bookman. Charles reflects on the enduring relevance and humor of the scene, attributing its success to blending comedic elements with influences from serious genres like Dragnet.

“[06:20] Larry Charles: When I hear it sitting here listening to it, I had a big grin on my face... It really brings me a lot of joy.”

Developing Characters: Kramer and Beyond

Charles discusses his role in developing the character of Kramer, portrayed by Michael Richards. Drawing from his personal experiences and interactions with the real-life neighbor, Kenny Kramer, Larry infused the character with a unique conspiratorial mindset and physical comedy prowess.

“[16:18] Terry Gross: And is that when you started bringing on women writers?”
“[16:18] Larry Charles: That was around that time. The women writers still were very few and far between.”

This innovation allowed Kramer to transition from a traditional sitcom neighbor into a central figure with rich, comedic depth, enhancing the overall dynamic of the show.

Pushing Boundaries: The Adventurous Spirit Behind Borat and Bruno

Transitioning from television to film, Larry Charles elaborates on his collaboration with Sacha Baron Cohen in creating the controversial characters Borat and Bruno. These characters, embedded in real-world settings, challenged societal norms by exposing underlying prejudices and biases.

“[31:02] Larry Charles: I was all about getting the scene and I would do anything... I wanted to make sure Sasha could do his performance unfettered.”

Charles candidly discusses the ethical complexities and personal risks involved in such projects, likening their work to that of war correspondents due to the constant danger and high-stakes environment.

Dangerous Comedy: The Thin Line Between Humor and Risk

Charles acknowledges the morally ambiguous nature of their work, where humor often borders on deception and discomfort for the subjects involved. He defends the intent behind their satire, viewing it as a tool to expose and critique societal ills.

“[34:07] Larry Charles: These are people that were, in our view, ruining the country... making horrible decisions, prejudiced, racist.”

Reflecting on the intense experiences, including potential PTSD from his ventures into dangerous territories, Charles emphasizes the addictive thrill of operating on the edge of societal norms.

Personal Struggles: The Intersection of Creativity and Private Pain

Beyond his professional achievements, Charles opens up about his personal life, detailing a tumultuous first marriage marked by infidelity and emotional turmoil. He expresses remorse for his actions and the lasting impact they had on his family, highlighting a stark contrast between his fearless on-screen persona and his struggles with honesty and vulnerability off-screen.

“[38:14] Terry Gross: You suggest in your memoir that in personal life, you're a little more cowardly about being honest.”
“[38:14] Larry Charles: Yes, I think I was very selfish. I think it took me a long time to face up to it.”

This candid confession underscores the memoir's central theme of personal transformation and the quest for self-improvement in the face of mortality.

Philosophies on Comedy and Emotion: A Reflection on "No Hugging, No Learning"

Charles delves into his belief that genuine emotions like love or sadness don't align with effective comedy, advocating instead for emotions like anger to fuel comedic expression.

“[43:39] Larry Charles: Yeah, I mean, I think that my interests were kind of different than Larry's and Jerry's. I was more interested in the counterculture, the underground world.”

He argues that comedy thrives on cynicism and disdain, aligning with Seinfeld's ethos of "no hugging, no learning," a philosophy that minimizes sentimentalism in favor of sharp, observational humor.

Legacy and Acceptance: Embracing Impermanence

In the latter part of the conversation, Charles reflects on his understanding of mortality and the ephemeral nature of life. His heart attack not only heightened his awareness of death but also deepened his commitment to alleviating suffering and fostering compassion in his work and personal life.

“[45:44] Larry Charles: I think I've come to some sort of acceptance of the finite quality of this life.”

He discusses his skepticism towards legacies, recognizing them as temporary markers in the vast continuum of existence, yet strives to infuse his actions with genuine compassion and understanding.

Conclusion: A Journey of Blood, Guts, and Laughter

Larry Charles' journey, as outlined in this Fresh Air episode, is a testament to the transformative power of comedy intertwined with personal growth and resilience. From crafting memorable sitcom moments to navigating the perilous landscapes of satirical filmmaking, Charles embodies the essence of pushing boundaries while grappling with his own vulnerabilities and regrets. His story is not just about creating laughter but about finding meaning and redemption through humor.

As Terry Gross aptly concludes the interview, Larry Charles remains a figure of bravery in the comedic world, continually challenging both himself and societal norms to create impactful and enduring art.

“[46:31] Terry Gross: Larry Charles, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for coming back to FRESH air.”

Subscribe to Fresh Air Plus for bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Visit plus.npr.org/freshair for more information.

Transcript

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[Terry Gross]

This is FRESH air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Larry Charles, has been an integral part of TV shows and films that both reflected and made an impact on American popular culture. He was a writer on Seinfeld, showrunner on Mad about yout, a writer and executive producer on HBO's Entourage, and a director and executive producer on Curb youb Enthusiasm. He directed Sacha Baron Cohen's films Borat and Bruno. He also collaborated with Bob Dylan on the film Masked and Anonymous. Larry Charles has a new memoir called Comedy 40 Years of Blood, Guts and Laughter. When he says blood and guts, he means it. He and Sacha Baron Cohen took enormous risks with their films in which Baron Cohen took his characters Borat and Bruno into the real world and shot scenes with people who thought Borat and Bruno were real people to expose antisemitism, racism and homophobia. Baron Cohn's fictional characters pushed his targets to reveal their darker feelings and beliefs, and it sometimes ended in near violence with Baron Cohn, Larry Charles and the crew fleeing. Larry Charles also did a documentary series called Larry Charles Dangerous World of Comedy, where he went to dangerous places run by authoritarian rulers or were controlled by militias to see what comedy was like there. Larry Charles, welcome to FRESH air. Welcome back to FRESH air.

[Larry Charles]

Thank you. It's great to be here again. Thank you so much.

[Terry Gross]

So the book starts with you having a heart attack and thinking this might be the end. Did facing the prospect of death make you rethink parts of your life and lead you to think you should rewrite parts of the book?

[Larry Charles]

Well, I think it gave me a little more perspective on my own mortality. I have been obsessed with death since I'm a kid, but the reality of death and the obsession with death are two very different things. And so I think I wanted to go back and be a little more honest and take a little bit more responsibility for my behavior. And I did add that layer to the book after all this happened.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Because there's part of the book where you write you realized you were the agent of your own misfortune.

[Larry Charles]

Very much so, yes.

[Terry Gross]

And that happened.

[Larry Charles]

And I had some bad agents, believe me, but I was the agent of my misfortune.

[Terry Gross]

So you realize this after the heart attack or you already knew it?

[Larry Charles]

Well, you know, I have been sort of contemplating all those things. I've been through therapy. I mean, I've done a lot of self reflection. When you're a writer and you're sitting alone in a room, you have a lot of time to think. So I've thought about a lot of these things, but I don't think. I think that I've thought about them, but I hadn't really incorporated them or absorbed them or believed them completely until this event occurred.

[Terry Gross]

So you joined on the second season of Seinfeld. And often shows have a so called bible that's supposed to lay out the tone and sensibility of the show and the shape of the episodes. What kind of prep were you given when you joined Seinfeld?

[Larry Charles]

None. I mean, the only thing I had was Larry had given me a couple of the scripts before the show premiered. And so I got to read the Chinese Restaurant and the Busboy and a couple of the other early episodes when the show was just before the show actually even was produced, and that was it. I never had any other exposure to the show until I went to work on it. And I don't think that Jerry and Larry were quite sure themselves what the show should be. There was no Seinfeld. It's like, it's funny when we look at it now in retrospect, we go, oh, well, yes, it has these elements to it, but none of those things actually existed at one time and they had to be constructed from scratch.

[Terry Gross]

So one of your famous episodes is the library, where Jerry has a book that he took out of the library in high school and is accused of having never returned it, although he's sure that he did. And in the scene I want to play the librarian investigations officer, in the tone of a hard boiled police detective, warns Jerry about the gravity of this violation and what the consequences might be for the larger society. And the librarian is played by the late and wonderful actor Philip Baker Hall.

[Philip Baker Hall]

You took this book out in 1971?

[Jerry Seinfeld]

Yes, and I returned it in 1971.

[Philip Baker Hall]

Yeah, 71. That was my first year on the job. Bad year for libraries. Bad year for America. Hippies burning library cards. Abbie Huffman telling everybody to steal books. I don't judge a man by the length of his hair or the kind of music he listens to. Rock was never my bag, but you put on a pair of shoes when you walk into the New York Public library, fella.

[Jerry Seinfeld]

Look, Mr. Bookman, I returned that book. I remember it very specific.

[Philip Baker Hall]

You're a comedian. You make people laugh.

[Jerry Seinfeld]

I try.

[Philip Baker Hall]

You think this is all a big joke. Don't you?

[Jerry Seinfeld]

No, I don't.

[Philip Baker Hall]

I saw you on TV once. I remembered your name from my list. I looked it up, sure enough, it checked out. You think because you're a celebrity that somehow the law doesn't apply to you? That you're above the law?

[Jerry Seinfeld]

Certainly not.

[Philip Baker Hall]

Well, let me tell you something, funny boy. You know that little stamp, the one that says New York Public Library? Well, that may not mean anything to you, but that means a lot to me. One whole hell of a lot. Sure, go ahead. Laugh if you want to. I've seen your type before. Flashy, making a scene, flaunting convention. Yeah, I know what you're thinking. Is this guy making such a big stink about old library books? Well, let me give you a hint, junior. Maybe we can live without libraries, people like you and me. Maybe. Sure, we're too old to change the world. What about that kid sitting down, opening a book right now in a branch of the local library and finding drawings of peepees and wee wees and the cat in the Hat and the five Chinese brothers? Doesn't he deserve better? Look, if you think this is about overdue fines and missing books, you better think again. This is about that kid's right to read a book without getting his mind warred.

[Terry Gross]

That is still so funny and seems so relevant. It holds up so well. What afterlife has it had?

[Larry Charles]

Well, it's my favorite thing. I mean, when I hear it sitting here listening to it, I had a big grin on my face. It's like it's joyous in some weird way, you know? And it also kind of illustrates why Seinfeld was different than most other shows, because the influence of that particular scene really comes from a non comedic source. Dragnet. And. And I loved Dragnet, and I loved how funny Dragnet was because the rhythms they created were so unique. And that's what I tried to recreate in that scene. And of course, Philip Baker hall was so serious. He played it so straight that it was hilarious. And I could listen to that. I have to say, I don't like to watch my own work or even listen to my own work or even think about my past work. But that particular scene really does bring me a lot of joy.

[Terry Gross]

So what was the genesis of the idea of it being like all of this hard boiled stuff was about a library book?

[Larry Charles]

Well, I mean, again, you were one thing about Seinfeld, and Larry went through this a lot as well. It's like the desperation for stories, and we were always seeking some kind of premise, some kind of Funny conceit that you could build an episode around. And I had read about somebody who had kept a book for 20 years or something in the library didn't know what to do. And I thought that was a funny idea. And then I thought about this character who would be the library cop who would have to go and sort of enforce the fine or the law. And then that kind of, like, dovetailed with a Kramer romantic thing with the librarian. All those things sort of started to weave together rather organically and an episode sort of emerged from it. So it was very lucky that those elements sort of came together.

[Terry Gross]

One of the lines that Seinfeld fans always remember is not that there's anything wrong with that. So I want to play that scene and I have a couple of questions about it. So just to set it up, Jerry, George and Elaine are at the restaurant where they're always meeting and a reporter from the NYU paper is supposed to be meeting Jerry there for an interview. Elaine notices that a woman is staring at them, listening intently. She assumes this young woman is just eavesdropping on their conversation and thinks, well, why don't we make a game of it? Why don't Jerry and George pretend to be gay and we'll walk? Watch this woman's reaction as she's eavesdropping. They don't realize that this woman is the reporter who's supposed to be meeting Jerry. So she overhears this, assumes Jerry and George are gay. She calls her editor, then leaves. The interview is rescheduled to take place at Jerry's home and when the reporter arrives, George is there. And everything that George and Jerry say she interprets as being about their gay relationship. So we'll pick it up in the middle of that scene. Do you guys live together?

[Larry Charles]

Live together?

[Philip Baker Hall]

No, I got my own place.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, and do you parents now?

[Philip Baker Hall]

No.

[Larry Charles]

What?

[Philip Baker Hall]

My parents, they don't know what's going on.

[Jerry Seinfeld]

Oh, God. You're that girl in the coffee shop that was eavesdropping on us. I knew you looked familiar. Oh, no, no.

[Terry Gross]

I better get going.

[Jerry Seinfeld]

There's been a big misunderstanding here.

[Philip Baker Hall]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jerry Seinfeld]

We did that whole thing for your benefit. We knew you were eavesdropping. That's why my friend said all that. It was on purpose. We're not gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Larry Charles]

No, of course not.

[Jerry Seinfeld]

I mean, it's fine if that's who you are.

[Philip Baker Hall]

Absolutely.

[Jerry Seinfeld]

I mean, I have many gay friends.

[Larry Charles]

My father's gay.

[Terry Gross]

Look, I I I know what I heard.

[Jerry Seinfeld]

Heard it was a Joke.

[Philip Baker Hall]

All right, look, you want to have sex right now? Do you want to have sex with me right now?

[Terry Gross]

Let's go.

[Philip Baker Hall]

Come on.

[Larry Charles]

Let's go, baby.

[Jerry Seinfeld]

Come on.

[Terry Gross]

I love that scene. What was this based on?

[Larry Charles]

This was based on rumors about Jerry. And it seemed like people, because Jerry was so neat, which we talk about in this episode. Jerry was very neat, and he probably still is. And his shoes were always, like, in his closet. They were very, well, you know, kind of organized. Everything was very well organized. He was very fastidious. And I think those cliches led people to kind of assume certain things about him. He wasn't married.

[Terry Gross]

He.

[Larry Charles]

He was a single guy. He was a bachelor. And I think these assumptions sort of led to some rumors. And I thought that was kind of funny knowing Jerry, and he seemed to think it was very funny also. And so I wrote an episode that sort of was based on that mistaken assumption.

[Terry Gross]

And how did you come up with the line, not that there's anything wrong with that?

[Larry Charles]

Well, the episode was originally pitched the season before, and the network was, if you could believe this, at that time, the network was very nervous about doing that storyline. So the next year, I sort of.

[Terry Gross]

What were they nervous about?

[Larry Charles]

I think that. That the subject of homosexuality was still a pretty much of a non starter for networks at that time in comedy and in drama. It was very rare to see a gay storyline on television at that time. This is the late. This is the mid-90s, I guess, or the early 90s even. And I don't think Ellen had come out yet. You know, I think a lot of things changed in the wake of this. Not necessarily because of this, but finally the times kind of changed enough that it became acceptable to start talking about that openly. And here was a perfect kind of, you know, crossroads episode about the rumors about it without actually being. Being about it itself. It was more about how people make those assumptions based on very, very little evidence. And so it was, you know, an episode that I had written before. I brought it up again, and this time there seemed to be a little more openness to it, but it seemed like we needed something to sort of mitigate the talk. You know, we didn't want it to seem homophobic. And so this expression, not that there's anything wrong with that was in the script maybe once originally. And Jerry and Larry thought that's the key to this script, is using that almost as a running gag through the show. And so we put it in quite a bit through. Through the course of the episode. And that was the Key to releasing the audience, allowing the audience, liberating the audience to laugh at all this kind of stuff.

[Terry Gross]

Why do you think that line caught on the way it did?

[Larry Charles]

I think it's, you know, like a lot of great Seinfeld, you know, we had tried to come up with catchphrases just for fun. Sometimes, like, those pretzels are making me thirsty was actually an attempt to create a catchphrase, which it sort of became in some ways. But there were, like. There were just things that an audience taps into that are kind of variables. They're X factors that really are kind of mysterious in a beautiful way. And the audience just sort of tapped into that line and were able to use. Applied to so many things in life that it became kind of a universal sort of, you know, thing to sort of attribute to almost any subject.

[Terry Gross]

You write about the time that Julia Louis Dreyfus came to the office in tears. She felt her character hadn't been developed enough. That her character was basically just a prop for the guys. There was not much for her to do. What was your reaction when she came to you that way? And what changed as a result?

[Larry Charles]

Well, first of all, seeing anybody cry is you want to help them in some way. And so I think that we all felt tremendously guilty. We all felt like she was right. But we weren't that adept at fixing the problem. We weren't sure what we could do. We didn't have great insights into female characters in general. We were guys. We wrote about guys things. And it was very hard for us to do anything but make her some kind of foil until Larry had the idea, finally, because of her coming in to give her somebody else's story, to give her a George story. And that was the liberation of Elaine's character.

[Terry Gross]

What was the story you gave her?

[Larry Charles]

It was a story that Larry had had about which was in that episode. I think it was the busboy. I'm not sure where. Larry had had a girlfriend from out of town come and stay with him and he was excited about it. But by the end of the weekend, all the excitement had worn off and he wanted her to leave. And she decided to stay a few extra days. And he was trying to coax her and cajole her into leaving early. And we thought that was a story that we could give to Elaine and she could have a boyfriend who's coming in from out of town. And it showed a side of her, a darkness to her, a neurosis to her that had not been evident before. And it showed that she had all the same problems and therefore all the same comic possibilities of the other characters. And it allowed us to write for her much more freely after that.

[Terry Gross]

And is that when you started bringing on women writers?

[Larry Charles]

That was around that time. The women writers still were very few and far between. Carol Leifer came on, there were other. There were two or three women writers who came on the show who did well. And yes, there was a search. There was always a search for people that could write Seinfelds. It was tough to find writers who could tap into that darkness in themselves. And if they were women or men, it really didn't matter. At that point. We were looking for anybody who could possibly express themselves in a Seinfeld script.

[Terry Gross]

You say that it was you who really developed the character of Kramer and you gave him his conspiratorial mindset. You had worked with him on Fridays, a sketch comedy show on Friday nights that didn't last long, but a lot of great people worked on it, including Larry David, who you work with in later years as well. So you saw this great potential in Michael Richards because of Fridays. You thought he was a real, like, comic genius. So tell us what you did to expand his character.

[Larry Charles]

Well, that was kind of a convergence there because you had the real Kramer, who. His name was Kenny Kramer, who was Larry's next door neighbor. And he was kind of, and I say this all in very positive tones, he was a weirdo in his own way. And then you had Michael, who was also kind of a weirdo in his own way. And me, I was very much of a weirdo in my own way as well. Larry was too, you know, but in a different way. Larry's thing was, you know, kind of his neurosis kind of fell into different categories than mine. I was more of like an underground person. And I felt like Kramer, I could connect to Kramer on that level. A guy who was scheming, a guy who was always trying to figure some angle. And I kind of like that about Kenny Kramer. And I knew that Michael could take that and with his physicality, make that into something original. And it was an untapped part of the show as far as I was concerned. Originally, Kramer was just a character who came in from next door, did a scene and left like many traditional next door neighbors in sitcoms. And I felt like, wow, this is an area that I could explore and I could expand upon. And it worked.

[Terry Gross]

You know, you describe how traditionally in sitcoms there would be the burst into the room scene where the neighbor comes in and bursts into the room and tells what just happened. But all the action of just what just happened happened off screen. And it seems to me you really exaggerated to that with Kramer. Cause when he bursts into the room, he bursts in the room and skids across the floor.

[Larry Charles]

Yes, he was an amazing physical and is, I'm sure, still an amazing physical comedian. He had gifts and those gifts I saw on display often on Fridays. He did things that you would just, you would be aghast that he was able to pull off some of the physical gags that he did, knew what he was capable of. But he created a lot of that business on the fly, as in rehearsals and then in front of the audience.

[Terry Gross]

Larry David put a lot of his own life into the personality of George. Did you pour part of yourself into the writing? And are there personal parts of your life, of your background story that you wrote in?

[Larry Charles]

Yeah, I think that my interests were kind of different than Larry's and Jerry's. I was more interested in the counterculture, the underground world. I loved underground comics and weird music. And I had strange friends like Bob Saccamano, who was Kramer's unseen friend. That was a real person from my life. And I had a lot of friends who were like into weird stuff. And that was a world that was not being tapped into. It was also a lower economic world. It was a lower economic status world. And I like the idea of Kramer. How did Kramer make a living? How did he get his money? How did he make the rent? And I thought those ideas were kind of interesting to me, that sort of desperation gave stakes to the character, you know.

[Terry Gross]

Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Larry Charles and his new memoir is called Comedy Samurai. We'll be right back and talk more about his TV and movie work and his life after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

[Molly Sivi Nesper]

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[Larry Charles]

Hi, this is Molly Sivi, Nesper, digital.

[Terry Gross]

Producer at FRESH air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.

[Larry Charles]

One of the things I do is.

[Terry Gross]

Write the weekly newsletter, and I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly picks, timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we.

[Larry Charles]

Tell you what's coming up next week.

[Terry Gross]

An exclusive, so [e-mail] fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. You describe yourself as a punk from Brooklyn. In what sense did you think of yourself as a punk?

[Larry Charles]

Well, I mean, there was a literal sense and a kind of a sensibility sense. Again, I was attracted to underground literature, Jean Genet, you know, Hubert Selby, Last Exit to Brooklyn, Charles Bukowski. I liked, you know, again, outsider stuff attracted me. Why? I don't know. But that's that's what I sort of gravitated towards in movies. I was a gigantic fan of John Waters. I would go into the city at that time, and it was a fertile time in the city for that, that sort of stuff. And you could see underground movies by Ken Jacobs or Jack Smith or all these interesting underground filmmakers. And so there was this other thing going on. There was this other art being made and music. You could go to cbgb and for a couple of bucks you could see the Talking Heads and the Ramones and Blondie all on the same bill, you know. And so for very little money, you could be exposed to really interesting and edgy and outsider culture. And I really gravitated to that.

[Terry Gross]

What made you love comedy?

[Larry Charles]

Well, my father was a failed comedian.

[Terry Gross]

He was.

[Larry Charles]

Yeah. He came out of World War II and used the GI Bill to go to the American Academy of Dramatic Arts. And he tried stand up comedy for quite a while. His stage name was Psycho, the Exotic Neurotic. And he would have material like in a trunk in his closet. And I would go in there and read that material on this onion skin paper typed up. And he was always on. My father was always on. He was more concerned with me rather than learning math or science. He wanted me to learn the dialogue from White Heat or he would be quoting Jerry Lewis, you know. And so I was just exposed to that. And even though when he. Even when he dropped out of show business, he had a lot of friends who stayed in it, not necessarily as actors or comedians, but they became like lighting directors or the stage manager at the Ed Sullivan Show, a guy named Tony Jordan. And then he would take me, my dad would take me to the Ed Sullivan rehearsals, and I would see the rehearsals, and I became fascinated. He was very into the glitz and glam, but I became fascinated by the behind the scenes stuff like this is how you do a TV show. And I'd be really, really into that and questions about that. And that kind of planted a bunch of seeds in my head as well.

[Terry Gross]

Well, just the fact that you had some kind of connection to that world must have made that world seem more reachable than it seems to most people.

[Larry Charles]

It still was far away. I mean, we would be going back to Brooklyn. I mean, I couldn't imagine how to break through. It was really Woody Allen. Reading about Woody Allen at that time in the 60s, and how he sold jokes to comedians. From being from that neighborhood and selling jokes to comedians, that seemed to be like something I might be able to do.

[Terry Gross]

Is that how you ended up selling jokes in front of a comedy Store?

[Larry Charles]

Exactly. I thought, that's my one in. I can sort of write jokes. And I didn't even have a typewriter. I mean, they were handwritten. And I would stand in front of the Comedy Store like a drug dealer and like, stop comedians that I recognized and go, you want to buy a joke? And comedians were pretty cool. And it was a golden age of comedy at the Comedy Store. You had Richard Pryor trying out material. Robin Williams was there every night. And the two big comedians were David Letterman and Jay Leno, ironically enough. And Jay Leno was a guy that bought material and he. I stopped him and he said, oh, yeah, this is a good joke. I'll try it out on stage. If it works, I'll give you 10 bucks. And it worked. And I got 10 bucks.

[Terry Gross]

Do you remember the joke?

[Larry Charles]

It had something to do with Delta Airlines, the airline run by professionals. What do they have on the other ones? Amateurs you know, something like that.

[Terry Gross]

So what would you do? Say, like, hey, buddy, want a joke? I mean, how come. How come they would take you seriously and not, like, just push you away and keep walking?

[Larry Charles]

I had paper. I had, like, legal pages with me. You know, I would literally shove it at them. I was, you know, at that time, things were much more open. You know, there wasn't like security issues or fear. Everybody was hanging out. It was a very loose atmosphere and, and people needed material. And here I was saying, I have it, I have material. And so, you know, not everybody responded, but quite a few really cool guys did respond, and I wound up being able to write for them.

[Terry Gross]

Great story. You are the showrunner for I forget. Which season of Mad about yout. Was it the second season?

[Larry Charles]

I think it was the fourth season, actually.

[Terry Gross]

Okay. And Helen Hunt and Paul Reiser played a married couple who, you know, got along pretty well. Plenty of comedy, but, you know, they were in love. And then you pitched them the idea of a two season arc in which their marriage would be fraying. There was infidelity, but in the end they would reconcile and she would be pregnant. So you write that you were basically writing a sitcom version of your life. What was happening in your life, those very things.

[Larry Charles]

There was infidelity. There was a breakdown of the marriage.

[Terry Gross]

You're on Driftony, right?

[Larry Charles]

Mine, yes. And we were drifting as a couple after being together a long time and also having babies at the same time while all this was going on. So I thought that is a challenge. I've always been interested in taking things, subjects, themes that aren't necessarily funny, that might not be funny and trying to find humor or comedy in them. And that was the challenge of Mad about yout. For me, that's one of the reasons I was attracted to, to do that show. It was a little bit more autobiographical. I had seen Mad about yout as a show about two very loving people who were having a good time as a couple. And I was like, well, this doesn't reflect my life at all. And I thought it might be interesting to give them a layer, a darkness that might be a little bit more substantial. And they were both, Paul and Helen, very responsive to that.

[Terry Gross]

Okay, time for another break here. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Larry Charles. His new memoir is called Comedy Samurai. We'll be right back. Back. This is Fresh air.

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[Terry Gross]

You write that comedy should be dangerous. It should be risky. And it was quite literally dangerous and risky when you work with Sacha Baron Cohn on Borat and Bruno, two fictional characters that you and he brought into the real world to interact with real people who had no clue that these characters weren't real. And you know, you use them to expose sexism, antisemitism, racism, as well as some acts of kindness and generosity. Borat was the character of Borat was an anti Semitic, misogynistic, racist, clueless journalist from Kazakhstan who'd come to America to make a documentary about American ways. And Bruno was an over the top stereotype of a gay fashion reporter. And you'd film scenes of them interacting with real people who have to react to these characters while these characters say and do very offensive things. So it was part of your job to deceive people and tell them that the fictional characters are real people. How did you feel comfortable doing that?

[Larry Charles]

Well, again, growing up in Brooklyn, I had to extricate myself from many tense situations. And so I was kind of uniquely qualified to be able to weave a story, to get out of trouble in some way. And so I was all about getting the scene and I would do anything I was in that mindset that I psyched myself to do anything that had to be done, any means necessary to get that scene. And I didn't really care in the moment what I did to do that, what line I had to cross to accomplish that. Maybe in the aftermath I would have second thoughts, but at the time, I was only looking to make this movie great. And that's what that movie needed. That movie needed me as much as it needed Sasha, of course, to do his performance. I wanted to make sure Sasha could do his performance unfettered, without any obstacles. And I would do anything to accomplish that.

[Terry Gross]

You know, one of the things I was thinking of, and, you know, it's been a while since I saw it, so correct me if I'm getting it wrong, but Bruno, the gay fashion journalist, is in a room with Bob Barr, who had been a conservative Republican congressman.

[Larry Charles]

That's what Borat. That's Borat, actually, that's Borat.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, okay. So go ahead, you describe it.

[Larry Charles]

Well, I was gonna say that Babar, the scene with Bob Barr was great because it was Borat would come in to meet people and he would immediately give them. He would immediately kiss them first. And that was a kind of like Sasha had all these kind of psychological cues to see how a person, how pliant a person might be in this scene. So he would kiss men and he'd only shake the hands of women, never kiss the women. He would. He would kiss men, though. And if men accepted the kiss, he knew that no matter how hard bitten they might be, they would probably more pliant than they realized. So he would kiss them, then he would give them candies and little, you know, flag pins of Kazakhstan. And in the case of Bob Bar, he gave him some cheese. He has some cheese wrapped in cheesecloth. He opened the cheesecloth, he gave Bob Barr cheese. He said, this is cheese from Kazakhstan. Bob Barr took the cheese, started to eat it, and as Borat was describing the cheese, he finally revealized that the cheese had come from his mother's breast. And now the cheese was already being masticated by Bob Barr. He couldn't spit it out on camera. And you see him stuck with this hunk of cheese in his mouth, trying to figure out what to do with it and finally, reluctantly, having to swallow it. It was a great moment.

[Terry Gross]

But you're putting him in such an uncomfortable position and you're putting him in a position where he has to look foolish no matter what he does. So do you ever have pangs of conscience about things like that? And things get much more personal and embarrassing for the people who are the targets.

[Larry Charles]

Well, it is sadism in the name of satire to some degree. These are people that were, in our view, ruining the country, making horrible decisions, prejudiced, racist. These were the people that were the enemies, in a way. And so this was our way of sort of getting back at them. You know, making them look foolish was a way to maybe dissipate their power. And that was the best method that we had.

[Terry Gross]

I'm trying to remember who it was with, Bruno, where you've arranged it so that the lights go out and, like.

[Larry Charles]

That was Ron Paul.

[Terry Gross]

That was Ron Paul, yes. So, like, the lights go out in the main part of the hotel room. So Bruno says, well, let's just go into the bedroom till the power comes back. And then he kind of strips to his underwear and starts doing the seductive dancing. And Ron Paul's pretending like, oh, I'm so engrossed in the newspaper, I don't even see what's happening. And then he eventually, like, throws down the newspaper and, like, walks out. In playing that scene back in my mind, and again, I haven't seen the movie in a while, but in playing that scene back in my mind, it's kind of sexual harassment.

[Larry Charles]

Well, that's an interesting way of putting it. I mean, whether you like Ron Paul.

[Terry Gross]

Or not, you're still putting him in the position of kind of sexual harassment, right?

[Larry Charles]

Well, I guess I can't really argue with that. I mean, that may be true. And at that time, that didn't seem to be a big issue. We did that scene four times in one day. And each of the politicians that came in had different reactions to Bruno getting undressed. Yes, it was pushed. It was crossing lines. There's no question about it. Could it be done today? That is a question also. I don't know the answer to that, but that, to me, is what comedy has to be. You have to sort of step over these lines and see what happens. And maybe sometimes that line is too thick to step over, but in that case, with Bruno in general as a character, it needed to be pushed that far.

[Terry Gross]

You compared some of the work that you did with Sacha Baron Cohen to being a war correspondent, because you were both putting yourself in danger all the time, and you really had to flee sometimes, and the police were after you, too. And then more recently, you did a series called Larry Charles Dangerous World of Comedy, in which you went to countries in the Middle east and in Africa run by authoritarian governments where there were militias, you know, with Guns at checkpoints. You were in the middle of a volley of bullets at one point and thought, well, maybe. Maybe this is the end. So the purpose of this documentary was to talk to people who were doing comedy in these kinds of places and see, well, who are these people and what's the comedy like? But like I said, you had compared what you were doing with Sacha Baron Cohen to being a war correspondent. And then for your Dangerous World of Comedy series, you went to the places that war correspondents go to and experienced some of the more frightening aspects of being there. And I'm wondering if, like, some war correspondence, you had PTSD or felt like maybe you'd become too addicted to, like, the adrenaline rush of putting yourself in danger.

[Larry Charles]

I think both those things are partially true. I mean, I think that I did love the exhilaration that I got from directing Bruno and Borat. When we survived a scene and we would get back in the van, we would explode with laughter. I mean, we were so excited. We felt like we were robbing a bank every day and getting away with it. I mean, it was an incredible feeling, and that is a very addictive feeling. I think on some level, when I was done with Larry Charles Dangerous World of Comedy, I definitely felt that I had experienced ptsd. I mean, I didn't know what I would do next. I was kind of lost the way war correspondents who come home are. So for me, it was a very analogous situation. It really was.

[Terry Gross]

You are so brave in your comedy. You take incredible physical risks. But you suggest in your memoir that in personal life, you're a little more cowardly about being honest. And the foremost example is with your first wife when you were unfaithful and then when you actually fell in love with another woman and she was in love with you, and you had a long relationship on the side that your wife didn't know about, and you knew the marriage was over, but you stayed in it for years. And you say that you were afraid to hurt your wife's feelings, but you eventually ended it and married Keely, the woman who you'd been with for a long time on the side. And looking back on it, do you think in your attempt to spare your wife the separation and letting her stay in a marriage that you are no longer committed to, made it worse for her when you did break up and when she did eventually find out that you had been with another woman for years?

[Larry Charles]

Yes, I think I was very selfish. I think it took me a long time to face up to it. I think I was an emotional coward. I have no excuses for that behavior. And I have instead many regrets. I feel like I hurt a lot of people, especially my first wife and my kids as well, from that marriage. I really was kind of like in a very self involved, egocentric place and didn't have the courage to step out of it. And it took me a long time to finally reach that point. Therapy, you know, finally just years of kind of facing it and avoiding it eventually got me to a place where I could do it. And, yeah, the damage that I did is something that I think about a lot. I wish I could undo. It is a regret that hovers over me, a regret that I've tried to honor. I mean, I've tried to honor people's pain and I've tried to go forward with a great deal more compassion and understanding than I had back at the time all this was going on because I have no excuses for it. It was bad behavior, no question about it. And if I was looking at it from outside, I would see it that way for sure.

[Terry Gross]

Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Larry Charles. His new memoir is called Comedy Samurai. We'll be right back. This is FRESH air.

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[Terry Gross]

I want to get back to your heart attack in March of 2024 and your close call with death. You're Jewish by birth and culture, but you know, you don't practice Judaism and I don't think you believe in God per se. You directed Bill Maher's documentary Religilous, and Maher really Doesn't believe in God or religion and kind of scoffs at people who do. Some non believers become believers and start praying just in case there's a God when they think they might be facing death. What about you, when you were afraid that you were really facing death?

[Larry Charles]

Well, first of all, I can accept the idea that there may be some intelligence to the universe. How that manifests itself, I think think is beyond our comprehension. I didn't turn to God. I didn't. That wasn't. That wasn't an option for me. I just had come to that belief system, and it seemed too hypocritical for me to suddenly leap on that bandwagon. So that was not an option for me. But I think it did expand my compassion. I think it did expand my understanding and my commitment to. To alleviating suffering. These were things that were not a concern of mine for most of my life. And so now that is something that infuses my daily life.

[Terry Gross]

You write in your memoir that hugging and learning is anathema to comedy. And one of the mottos that I don't know who came up with it about Seinfeld was no hugging, no learning. And you go on to say coldness, callousness, uncaring, uncompassionate disdain, skepticism, scoffing at seriousness. These are the building blocks of comedy. And there was no room for genuine emotion. Do you still feel like those negative feelings are the drivers of comedy and there's no room for genuine emotion?

[Larry Charles]

Yeah, I mean, I think the only genuine emotion that really seems to sort of fuel comedy is anger. That is the emotion that I think does exist in comedy. And I think a lot of comedians are working through that anger, whether it be Mel Brooks, one of the sweetest people in the world, or, you know, someone like Bill Burr or Louis CK or whoever it might be, you will feel some sort of anger. They have aggression towards the world that they have been towards the. Towards the hand they have been dealt. And. But, yeah, I do. I do still kind of believe that if it feels like if you are crying or you're feeling love, you're not laughing.

[Terry Gross]

It's funny because Jerry Seinfeld is often offered as the person who doesn't fit all of that, like anger being the driving engine of his comedy.

[Larry Charles]

Well, that's true, but I think there probably is more anger there than we see on the surface. And something we brought out in the show was that Jerry has a very dark side and a very cold side that he kind of has a sadistically about. And is part of his comedy. And he just is able to project a kind of sweetness which is also real. But that sort of a dichotomy in him is part of the driving force of his comedy. He could be very impatient, you know, he could be very intolerant of other people's point of view. That's a lot of where his comedy comes from. He's making fun of what other people believe. And so there is, there is a lot of aggression to that as well, even though he presents it in a very palatable, palatable way.

[Terry Gross]

You know, you write that now, you know, post heart attack, you think about death and impermanence every day, in addition to thinking more about trying to help people who are suffering and be more generous. Where else has that led you thinking about death and impermanence?

[Larry Charles]

I think I've come to some sort of acceptance of the, the finite quality of this life. And that was something that was hard for me to really accept. I really did not like the idea. I still don't like the idea of all this being over. It seems ridiculous to me that you go through this whole thing and all these problems, you cause pain, you receive pain, and then at the end you die, you know, and it's when I see people talking about legacies, I kind of laugh in a way because it's also temporary and it's also short. So I've tried, I know I can't change that. So I've tried to come to some level of acceptance about it.

[Terry Gross]

Larry Charles, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for coming back to FRESH air.

[Larry Charles]

Great to talk to you again, Terry. Anytime.

[Terry Gross]

Larry Charles new memoir is called Comedy Samurai. Tomorrow on FRESH air, our guest will be Dan Tabursky, creator of the podcasts missing, Richard Simmons, 912 and hysterical, which won this year's Ambie Award for podcast of the Year. He'll talk about why he's drawn to stories at the intersection of obsession, mystery and culture. Hysterical investigates an outbreak of mysterious symptoms among teenage girls in one high school. I hope you'll join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram P R FRESH air FRESH air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Sam Brigger produced today's show. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Teresa Madden directed today's show. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. We'll close with a song by Arthur Hamilton. The songwriter died May 20th at the age of 98. This is his most famous song, cry Me a River, and this is the most famous recording of it, sung by Julie London. I'm Terry Gross. Now.

[G]

You say you're lonely, you cry the long night through. Well you can cry me a river, Cry me a river I cried a river over you. Now you say you're sorry for being so untrue. Well you can cry me a river, Cry me a river I cried a river over you. You drove me, nearly drove me out of my head while you never shed a tear. Remember I remember all that you said Told me love was two plebeian Told me you were through with me and now you say you love me.

[Molly Sivi Nesper]

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