Loading summary
Transcript164 lines
- [00:01]
Capella University
This message comes from Capella University. With Capella's Flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella. Edu.
- [00:17]
David Biancooli
This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Biancooli. NBC's Saturday Night Live is celebrating its 50th anniversary this weekend with a triple header of special events. Tonight, Peacock streams a live music concert featuring scheduled performances by everyone from Bad Bunny and David Byrne to Lady Gaga and the Roots. On Saturday, in its regular late night slot on NBC, SNL repeats the first ever episode of Saturday Night Live, hosted by George Carlin and introducing the original not for primetime players John Belushi, Gilda Radner, Dan Aykroyd, Chevy Chase, Jane Curtin, Lorraine Newman and Garrett Morris. And on Sunday, NBC presents a three hour live anniversary special preceded by an additional hour on the red carpet. Today on Fresh Air, we're noting that anniversary by replaying interviews with some of the performers and writers who were there at or near the start when producer Lorne Michaels created and shaped the show's first five seasons. After a five year hiatus, Michaels returned and has been there ever since, presiding over many decades of cast changes, musical trends and political shifts. Even though Michaels and NBC are celebrating the 50th anniversary of SNL this weekend, the very first episode, then called NBC's Saturday Night, actually premiered on October 11, 1975. Michaels had selected a cutting edge counterculture comic as the show's host, but the comedian George Carlin suggested he do only the first one, making room for guest hosts from then on. Michaels agreed, establishing a template that still works while Carlin established another one, taking the stage at Studio 8H to deliver an opening monologue talking about a live show.
- [02:05]
Terry Gross
Nice to see you, welcome and thanks for joining us live. I'm kind of glad that we're on.
- [02:10]
Unnamed Speaker 1
At night so that we're not competing.
- [02:12]
Terry Gross
With all the football and baseball games.
- [02:17]
Unnamed Speaker 1
So many man all the time. And this is the time of year.
- [02:20]
Terry Gross
When there's both football's kind of nice.
- [02:23]
Unnamed Speaker 1
They changed it a little. They moved the hash marks in. Guys found them and smoked them anyway.
- [02:29]
David Biancooli
One other noteworthy element from that first show, still part of the format 50 years later, was a TV news parody called Weekend Update. Chevy Chase was the first Update anchor and thanks to that showcase, the first star to emerge from snl. It helped that he started most updates with the opening line, I'm Chevy Chase and you're not. But the jokes he read written by original Writer Alan Zweibel and others helped too.
- [02:55]
Unnamed Speaker 1
The Post Office announced today.
- [02:58]
Dan Aykroyd
Just a second.
- [02:59]
Unnamed Speaker 1
I lost my place. Oh. The Post Office announced today that it is going to issue a stamp commemorating prostitution in the United states. It's a 10 cent stamp, but if you want to lick it, it's a quarter.
- [03:10]
David Biancooli
On today's show, we'll hear from Alan Zweibel and cast member John Lovitz, and also from Al Franken, a writer and performer who went from the halls of Saturday Night Live to the corridors of the U.S. senate. But let's start with an interview Terry GROSS Conducted in 2004 with Dan Aykroyd, who broke out on the show impersonating Julia Child and Tom Snyder, co anchoring Weekend Update after Chevy Chase left. And introducing a range of unforgettable characters, including the outer space alien Beldar Conehead, one of the wild and crazy guys opposite Steve Martin, and most famously, Elwood Blues, one of the musical energetic Blues brothers alongside John Belushi. Terry asked Dan Aykroyd about his love of music and more.
- [03:54]
Dan Aykroyd
What were the first records you bought? Can you remember?
- [03:57]
Terry Gross
Well, the first records, of course, were, you know, the Beatles and the Stones. And then I think the seminal record for me was the east west record that Paul Butterfield did in the late 60s with Elvin Bishop and Michael Bloomfield. And from then on I began to go out and try to search the bins in the record stores for blues artists and then started listening to John Lee Hooker. And we had a tremendous booking agent in Ottawa, Canada, where I grew up. That's the capital of that great, great nation. And my parents worked for the government up there. And I was a kind of a son of government workers up there. And there was a club called Lehibo, which was right on Sussex Drive near where the Prime Minister lives. And we had a booker there named Harvey Glatt, and he brought in all of the great blue stars of the age. So that as a teenager I jammed behind Muddy Waters when SP Leary refused to take the drum kit. And he said, is anybody out there that's a drummer. And I walked up and I started to play and Muddy turns to me and he goes, keep that beat going, boy. You make Muddy feel good. I mean, this was part of my early exposure. And then I saw Paul Butterfield and, and, and Charlie Musselwhite and, and, you know, all these great players. And it was, I guess, just through the insight of this, this guy who was, you know, booking for the college crowd up there and then listening to the black radio Stations in Boston and Detroit and New York. This was, you know, these were sort of all part of my exposures, I guess.
- [05:21]
Dan Aykroyd
So what was in your parents record collection? What did they listen to? And how did that affect what you liked or didn't like?
- [05:27]
Terry Gross
Well, my dad used to pore over the newspapers and look for record collections that were used. So he would go and he'd see that some guy in Ottawa or Hull or where we were living there would be selling 100 records. He'd just go out and buy them all. So we were listening to anything from Glenn Miller to Mario Lanza, lots of Broadway soundtracks and stuff. But I think my father really influenced me when he started to get into the Jack Hilton, Ray Noble, Freddie Gardner English swing band music. That was, that was really something because, you know, the value of horns was there. And then later as I started to buy, of course, was the Beatles and the Stones and the Animals and then the Paul Butterfield record. But my dad was into the swing band music, as many people were in Canada at that time.
- [06:18]
Dan Aykroyd
Now, I read about you, that you had a pretty strict Catholic upbringing, that you went to Catholic school, Seminary. Seminary, wow. Okay, so you're growing up in Canada, you're going to a seminary and listening to blues and rock and roll and.
- [06:34]
Terry Gross
Rhythm and blues and seeing guys on stage in my high school imitating Mick Jagger, imitating the Animals.
- [06:40]
Dan Aykroyd
Okay, that's, that's where I'm heading. Were you, did you. Long before you became part of the Blues Brothers and you developed this kind of alter ego for yourself, did you have a pose when you were in high school? Did you want, did you want to be black? Did you want to be a blues musician? Did you want to be somebody who you weren't and, and, and kind of take on that pose in real life?
- [07:00]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Sure.
- [07:00]
Terry Gross
I wanted to be Paul Butterfield and Charlie Musselwhite. And I used to walk around in a long trench coat, a long brown trench coat with shades, and I slick my hair back and I'd try to find any little band up in the bars up in the Gatineau and up in Ottawa and Hull and where I was living. And I would get on stage with them and they'd be country bands. And I would turn to them and say, well, can you do it like this? And I would kind of show them a basic, you know, 8, 10, 12 bars blues pattern. And then we'd just take off from there. And of course, I was posing as Paul Butterfield. Yeah, absolutely. And then my friend Gary O'Dwyer, who is now a school principal in Coburg, Ontario. He was pretending to be Eric Burton and I had, you know, the, the math whiz in class in grade 11 was pretending to be Mick Jagger so everybody was, was posing and it was all based on rock and roll and music and blues then, all of it.
- [07:49]
Dan Aykroyd
Did you sing then or. I know you played drums.
- [07:52]
Terry Gross
I played harmonica and sang, yeah. The drumming was sporadic but you know, I, I filled in for, for bands now and again when I was, when I was.
- [08:03]
Dan Aykroyd
How did you and Belushi start the whole Blues brothers routine?
- [08:08]
Terry Gross
In 1973 John came up to Canada to recruit for the National Lampoon Radio Hour and I was in Second City with Gilda Radner and with John Candy. And John came into Toronto and he joined us on the set of the Second City stage and we did an improv set and then we went back to my very famous speakeasy called the 505, which opened after 1:00 after the Liquor Control Board of Ontario closed most of the bars in the province. We had a bar at the corner of Queen and River at 505 Queen street and all the streetcar drivers and cops from like outlying regions and waiters and waitresses and dancers would come to drink and I had a record on by the Downchild Blues Band out of Toronto, Donnie Walsh, an incredible seminal artist out of Canada. And John and I were listening to it and John said, what is this? This is a great record. I said, oh, it's just a local blues band. Blues, huh? I'm from Chicago, I hear the blues now and again but I'm into heavy metal, he says. I said, well John, you show me heavy metal and I'll show you the blues. So we started to kind of talk about it and listen and Howard Shore was there that night. He's of course the great Oscar winning composer of the Lord of the Rings trilogy music. He was the original musical director on Saturday Night Live and he was in Toront at that time and had dropped by the bar and he said, yeah, you guys should start a band and you could call it the Blues Brothers. And we just went bink bink. And we started to correspond. I didn't go back to New York with John, he'd managed to get Gilda to go back with him. But we kept in touch on the phone and we started to look at material and develop material and we did our first gig in New York in the Lone Star Cafe and our backup band was Willie Nelson with Mickey Raphael, one of the greatest harmonica players ever. And Willie Understood what we were trying to do. Like so many that came along and joined us, they understood that, okay, these guys aren't the greatest musicians or singers or dancers, but what they are are great front men, and they love and respect the music. So the hat and glasses are from the John Lee Hooker album, House of the Blues. He wears those shades and that hat on the COVID there. The suits, the black jacket and thin tie and white shirts were because, you know, a lot of artists in the 60s kind of, you know, who were progressive and maybe were getting in trouble with the law, like Lenny Bruce wanted to look straight. And so it was kind of trying to get that IRS look together to kind of fool the straights was where that. That came from. One of my first jobs in broadcasting was working for City TV in Toronto, which was this whole new concept in urban television that really basically, today, your news desk, your news desks across America, channel 7, 4 or 2, wherever you want to be, network with the graphics and the presence, the seemingly sort of active presence of the newscaster. This is from Moses Nymer, Citty tv. He basically changed the whole format and the whole delivery of news in North America. And I worked for his station. I was a game show announcer and I also did the shot box announcing. So I actually had to do that fast rap stuff for car companies and beer companies and all that. So, sure, I was actually doing it professionally. When I first started out, I was hired by none other than Ivan Reitman, who we went on to do the Ghostbusters thing together.
- [11:37]
Dan Aykroyd
Wow. So you were doing the real thing before you did the parodies?
- [11:40]
Terry Gross
I was, yeah. I was a mailman in Toronto when I first moved there. I knew I wanted to go to Toronto, work with Lorne Michaels again. I had gone there to do a special with him when I was. Went back to Carleton University. Couldn't concentrate, you know, had to be in show business. Dropped out of school, much to the chagrin of my parents. I got a job driving mail truck in Toronto and then I shifted to the broadcasting. And, yeah, I was a shotbox announcer for about a year there with City tv and hired by Ivan Reitman and recommended by Lorne. Lorne said, you should hire this kid. So Lorne Michaels has been instrumental in my career from, you know, basically age 17.
- [12:17]
Dan Aykroyd
Let me ask about one of the parody commercials you did. And this is. This is a terrific video compilation of your best or some of your best sketches from Saturday Night Live. And this is the one for the Bassomatic. It's like a blender that turns Fish into a delicious shake.
- [12:33]
Terry Gross
People remember. Yeah.
- [12:36]
Dan Aykroyd
Tell me how you came up with this and if it relates to a real ad that you ever get.
- [12:39]
Terry Gross
Oh, yeah, no. My aunt, the late Helene Goujon, she was a lovely woman, my mother's sister. She was in fact the Julia Child of Canada.
- [12:49]
Dan Aykroyd
Really?
- [12:50]
Terry Gross
She had. Yep. She had a television show and a. And a. And a cuisine shop in Montreal during the. The 60s. And she. I went to her house for lunch and she was a mass, you know, master gourmet chef. And she was very well known for. She was on the. The network, the TV up there. And she said she was making a fish soup. And I saw she dropped the whole fish into the blender with the bones and everything. You know, she said, oh, no, no, no. Where are the bones? You pick the bones out like you're eating a filet. Don't worry about it. And I never forgot that. And then, you know, many years later, I was sitting with Paul Simon and Lorne Michaels and Elaine and Chevy. And John and I were there. Belushi, Paul Simon, me, Lorne and Chevy. And we're sitting there and, you know, and, you know, we were just kind of laughing over things. And I was thinking about that and, you know, we were reading a meal and I thought, yeah, I got this idea for, you know, a scene, you know, bassomatic. And when I said that Paul Simon, you know, who's probably one of the most brilliant people ever in entertainment, he started to really laugh. And it was. It's hard to get Paul to laugh, you know, because he's so intellectual, so smart, you know, you gotta be at a certain level. When he started to snort, I said, man, I got something. If I can make Paul laugh, it's this easy. And I went away and I wrote the scene based upon that night and my aunt's real experience with the fish in a blender. And I remember a woman wrote me a letter, very upset that I would change the molecular state of the fish from solid to liquid on television. She was really, really upset about that. And I wrote her back and I said, well, you know, this was actually the way that my aunt made fish soup.
- [14:27]
Dan Aykroyd
Well, let's hear Dan Aykroyd advertising the basso medic on Saturday Night Live.
- [14:32]
Terry Gross
How many times has this happened to you? You have a bass, you're trying to find an exciting new way to prepare it for dinner. You could scale the bass, remove the bass's tail, head and bones, and serve.
- [14:42]
Unnamed Speaker 1
The fish as you would any other fish dinner.
- [14:44]
Terry Gross
But why bother now that you can use Robco's amazing new kitchen tool, the super bass O Matic 76. Yes, fish eaters, the days of troublesome scaling, cutting and gutting are over because super bass o matic 76, is the tool that lets you use the whole bass with no fish waste, without scaling, cutting or gutting. Here's how it works. Catch a bass, remove the hook and drop the bass that's the whole bass into the Super Bass O Matic 76. Now adjust the control dial so that that bass is blended just the way you like it. Yes, just that simple.
- [15:28]
David Biancooli
Dan Aykroyd spoke to Terry Gross in 2004. One of the original writers on Saturday Night Live was Alan Zweibel. In 1989, he told Terry about how he collaborated with Gilda Radner on several of her characters. Together, they wrote such still memorable comic creations as Emily Lutella and Roseanne Rosanna Dana.
- [15:47]
Alan Zweibel
She was a great writer, undisciplined in that she wouldn't sit down at a typewriter and stay up all night. You. However, whenever we would write together, it was usually by virtue of me taking a legal pad and a pen and the two of us going to a restaurant. And I would basically interview her on whatever we were going to do that week, whether it was Roseanne, Roseanna, Dana, Emily Lutella, any of the other things that I'd written for her. I'd say, okay, how do you feel about this? What would Roseanne say about that?
- [16:19]
Dan Aykroyd
So you co created the Emily Lutella.
- [16:22]
Alan Zweibel
Character with her that was. Yeah, that was based on a character that was a nanny that was very, very important in Gilda's upbringing. Her name was Dibbie and spoke like that. The character first appeared in a sketch that either Franken and Davis wrote or Rosie Schuster and wasn't named as such. And then we started using it more and more. Then ultimately Gilda and I hooked into it and put her in Weekend Update. And the character evolved into what?
- [16:56]
Terry Gross
Tonight's commentary is very important because I.
- [17:00]
Jon Lovitz
Hear that President Ford wants to make Puerto Rico a steak.
- [17:08]
Terry Gross
Now, why does he have to make the mistake?
- [17:10]
Jon Lovitz
I didn't think those people even liked meat.
- [17:13]
Terry Gross
Now let me what's all this fuss?
- [17:16]
Jon Lovitz
I keep hearing about violins on television. Now, why don't parents want their children to see violins on television? I say there should be more violins on television and less game shows.
- [17:33]
Terry Gross
It's terrible the way things work.
- [17:35]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Mr. Teller, that was violence on television, not violins. Violence.
- [17:40]
Terry Gross
Oh, well, that's different.
- [17:43]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Yes.
- [17:44]
Terry Gross
Never mind.
- [17:47]
Dan Aykroyd
Can you describe the creation of the Roseanne Rosanna Dana character?
- [17:51]
Alan Zweibel
Well, there was once a sketch called Hire the incompetent that I believe Rosie Schuster wrote where Gilda appeared with that wig. And Hire the Incompetent was interviews with three people who were clearly too incompetent to have any job anywhere. And it was successful. And months later I was having dinner with Gilda and I said, you know, remember that character? I said, why don't we give her a name, Put her in Weekend Update and why not give her, you know, let her be a consumer advocate. Not unlike. And there was a local ABC newswoman called Roseanne Scammardella in New York at the time. I said, not unlike Roseanne Scammardella. And Gilda said, well, okay, can we call her Roseanne Rosanna Danna? And I said, why? And what Gilda had done, remember that song the Name Game? You know, Johnny, Johnny Galvani? Gilda started singing it. And if you sing it with the name Roseanne somewhere in there, Roseanne, Roseanne Adana comes out and I go, okay, fine, let's name her that. So every week she would get a letter from Richard Feder from Fort Lee, New Jersey, who's my brother in law. He was my best friend growing up. Then he married my sister and it was my way of saying hi to him every week. So we made him the letter writer and basically we lapsed into a formula where we would take a celebrity and we would take something topical and we would put the two together and come up with sweat bowls at the end of Dr. Joyce Brothers nose or nasal hairs from Bo Derek or whatever we did.
- [19:30]
Jon Lovitz
So what does she do? She opens her perfect little purse and.
- [19:33]
Terry Gross
Takes out her perfect little kleenex and.
- [19:34]
Jon Lovitz
Dries her perfect little fez and then froze a perfect little kleenex into a perfect little Tiffany trash can.
- [19:39]
Terry Gross
But what this cutie didn't know was.
- [19:41]
Jon Lovitz
When she wiped off her nose, she didn't push back in this one little perfect little nose hair. It just stuck out there and it was long and it was black and it was perfect. And I thought I was gonna die. Just between you and me, Roseanne Roseannadana, I felt like yanking down two more hairs, braiding them and putting a bead at the end.
- [20:05]
Terry Gross
Then her nose would have looked like her.
- [20:08]
Jon Lovitz
But I yell, pet Bo, shove that hair back up your nose. What are you gonna do, make me sip Roseanne? You think you're so neat.
- [20:15]
Terry Gross
Not Roseanne Roseanne.
- [20:18]
David Biancooli
Alan Zweibel spoke to Terry Gross in 2004. After a break we'll hear from SNL writer turned US Senator Al Franken and cast member Jon Lovitz. And Justin Chang reviews a newly released movie that's actually more than 25 years old. I'm David Biancooley and this is FRESH AIR.
- [21:06]
Terry Gross
So don't worry cause I'm coming. I'm so mad.
- [21:13]
Unnamed Speaker 1
I'm so mad.
- [21:17]
Unnamed Speaker 2
This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on think or swim. Visit schwab.com to learn more.
- [21:32]
Capella University
This message comes from NPR sponsor Saatva. Founder and CEO Ron Rudson shares the story of how he got started Creating.
- [21:40]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Saatva in 20072008 I went out and.
- [21:44]
Terry Gross
I bought the most popular luxury mattresses. I tore them apart and I realized.
- [21:49]
David Biancooli
Based on the raw materials, cost and.
- [21:51]
Terry Gross
The analysis that I had done that I was able to sell that level.
- [21:55]
Capella University
Mattress but with a very affordable price. Save up to $600 through President's Day at saatva.com NPR this message comes from Capella University. Learning doesn't have to get in the way of life. With Capella's game changing flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your own schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to earn your degree. Instead, enjoy learning your way and pursue your educational and career goals without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu.
- [22:38]
David Biancooli
We'Re celebrating 50 years of Saturday Night Live, featuring interviews with early cast members and writers. Al Franken was one of the show's original writers, along with his partner, Tom Davis. He worked as a writer and occasional performer during the show's first five years, then returned in 1985 as both writer and performer for another 10 years. Terry spoke with Al Franken in 1988, and she asked him about how he dealt with the network censors.
- [23:05]
Dan Aykroyd
What's your system of pushing for something when you're arguing with a censor or with a producer about your material, you make a strong case about why it's really not in bad taste. Explain what the joke is.
- [23:17]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Yeah, you know, people think we really don't like the censors, that they're our enemies. And the fact is I spend more time with the censors at NBC than with, you know, anybody else other than our staff. So I know these guys real well, it's adversarial, but it's friendly. And we don't really pull anything off over on them. We just make our argument. I lost a piece last year that I really cared about. It was called what's My Addiction? And it was a game show in which, you know, celebrity panelists were Johnny Cash, Liza Minnelli and David Crosby, and the host was Betty Ford. And all the, you know, guests would come on and the panelists would ask them questions like on what's My Line? And try to guess what their chemical dependency was. And the point of the show was that all chemical dependency is the same thing. Whether it's barbiturates or speed or alcohol, you know, street drugs or prescription drugs or. It's all the same thing. And it all has very, very similar tragic consequences. And I was more proud of this piece than of any I had written that year. And they showed it on the air. It was. It went on the air once and it went over great. And they decided not to run it in the repeat.
- [24:48]
Dan Aykroyd
Why not?
- [24:49]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Because it dealt with drugs and it got laughs. And there is this prejudice against comedy, which is if you do comedy, therefore it isn't serious. You know, they're just two separate things.
- [25:03]
Dan Aykroyd
But let me just ask you, when a sketch of yours is killed, either before it airs or in this case, it was killed.
- [25:09]
Unnamed Speaker 1
That was very unusual.
- [25:10]
Dan Aykroyd
It was killed for the rerun. Yeah.
- [25:11]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Yeah, that was unusual.
- [25:12]
Dan Aykroyd
What do you do? I mean, do you. Do you just accept it, or do you go in and make a big argument about it?
- [25:17]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Well, we're beginning to try to make an argument higher up. We're thinking maybe this is something General Electric will understand, that we're in competition with cable and Saturday Night Live is on at 11:30. And at least at one time had a reputation of being on the cutting edge. And that some of the censorship that we've had this year and in the last couple years has really been silly. We wrote a sketch called Jew, Not a Jew. It was a game show in which, you know, it'd be like. There'd be like a big board with, you know, and someone's picture would come up and it'd be like Family Feud and there'd be two families and Penny Marshall's face would come up on it. And you go, she was, you know, star of Laverne and Shirley, now a director, married to all in the family's meathead one time, Penny Marshall, Jew or not a Jew. And then, ding, ding, ding, ding. Take it, Knofflers. You know, she Looks, she's from New York or something. She's got a big nose. We're gonna say Jew. Sorry. Penny Marshall is Italian. Of Italian descent. But anyway, the point was, is that NBC, our censors, said, no, you can't do this, because some people will take it the wrong way. And we're just saying, well, yeah, but it's not intended to be anti Semitic. I'm Jewish. I wrote it. I'm Jewish. This is what we used to do at home. When we were sitting at home, we'd actually see Mel Farrar on TV and go, you think he's a Jew? I don't know. And my dad would go, you know, Leslie Howard is Jewish, Alan. Really? Yes, he is.
- [27:05]
Dan Aykroyd
I think it's a preoccupation that a lot of Jewish people have trying to figure out who's Jewish and who isn't.
- [27:10]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. So it's sort of a living. We made it into this game show.
- [27:14]
Capella University
So that never got on the air?
- [27:16]
Unnamed Speaker 1
No, it never got on the air. And it's. It's just stupid, you know, I mean, I think at one point they, like, asked some rabbi if it was okay to put it on or something.
- [27:26]
Dan Aykroyd
He's taking it to the top.
- [27:28]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Yeah.
- [27:29]
Dan Aykroyd
You started on Saturday Night Live the first season it was on. And you've. You've been in and out of the show several times, right?
- [27:36]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Yeah. Tom and I have worked. We're called Lorne again. We've been there whenever Lorne's there. Lorn again, writers. And so we've been there from. We were there for the first five years, and now we've been here or there for the last three.
- [27:51]
Dan Aykroyd
First show this season that I saw you on Saturday Night Live, you had revived the Al Franken decade.
- [27:55]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Yeah.
- [27:56]
Dan Aykroyd
How did you first come up with it?
- [27:58]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Oh, the Al Franken Day. Okay. Basically what happened was in 1979, at the end of 1979, remember, the 70s was the me decade. And everybody was sort of saying, well, the me decade's over. What's the next decade going to be about? And there'd be some guy who would write a thing, my turn in Newsweek, and he'd say, this is going to be the pull together generation, revolving around how we use our energy resources. And then at the bottom would say, ted Hudnut is an energy resource consultant. And I realized that everybody was saying basically that the 70s was the me decade, but the 80s is going to be about this thing that I'm involved with. So. So I figured the. I'd just make it the Al Franken decade.
- [28:53]
Dan Aykroyd
Al Franken, thanks a lot for talking with us.
- [28:55]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Okay. Well, thank you.
- [28:56]
David Biancooli
Al Franken speaking to Terry Gross in 1988. And by the way, his Jew Not a Jew sketch did eventually get on the air later that year with Tom Hanks playing the game show host.
- [29:07]
Unnamed Speaker 1
10 points. 10 points. Okay, let's continue. Hands on buzzers.
- [29:12]
Terry Gross
Mayor of New York. Yes, yes, he's a Jew, Bob. Yes, that's right. Ed Koch is a Jew. Ten point.
- [29:22]
David Biancooli
You'll hear another one of their conversations after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
- [29:27]
Unnamed Speaker 2
This message comes from BetterHelp. Online therapy. Relationships of all kinds are complicated and they tend to come with a lot of tough questions. From questions about co workers to family to romantic partners, therapy can be your safe space to talk about challenges you face in any of life's relationships. BetterHelp offers therapy 100% online, and sign up takes only a few minutes. Visit betterhelp.com NPR to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com NPR this message comes from Carmax. Buying a car is a big decision, a decision you should feel absolutely confident about. And when you shop with CarMax, you will because CarMax offers a 10 day money back guarantee so you can feel confident that you made the right choice for you. If you're not completely satisfied with your decision, simply bring it back within 10 days for a full refund. Always shop with confidence at CarMax, the way car buying should be. See CarMax.com for details.
- [30:22]
Capella University
This message comes from Carvana. Sell your car the convenient way, Enter your license plate or vin, answer a few questions and get a real offer in seconds. Go to Carvana.com today.
- [30:35]
David Biancooli
When Al Franken spoke to Terry again in 1992, he was a more prominent performer on Saturday Night Live. He satirized the recovery movement through his character, Stuart Smalley. Stuart was a caring nurturer who was addicted to 12 step programs and dispensed advice on how to keep a positive attitude. Franken even wrote a book of Stewart's daily affirmations and released an audio tape of his guided visualizations. Both of those works were titled I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, and doggone it, People like me.
- [31:09]
Unnamed Speaker 1
I'm going to do a great guided visualization tape and I'm going to help people because I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, and doggone it, people like me. Hello, I'm Stuart Smalley, and welcome to you're Good Enough, you're Smart Enough, and doggone it, people like You A Healing Journey through the Dysfunctional Forest and Other Guided Visualizations. It's a long title, but that's okay. It's appropriate. Now, before we go any further in this tape, I do want to start with a little warning. Guided visualizations are powerful stuff, and hopefully the visualizations on this tape will transport the you inside of you or whatever and free that inside person from to be the best you inside of you that you can be. But I think I would be remiss if I did not tell you that I am not a licensed therapist. And while I am being paid to do this, I am not a professional in the therapeutic sense. And I do worry that I will misuse this power and really screw somebody up. You know, accidentally.
- [32:28]
Dan Aykroyd
How did you come up with the kind of whiny voice that you used for the character?
- [32:33]
Unnamed Speaker 1
You know, the voice. It's funny. Sometimes when you write something, it comes with a voice. And this just did. And I don't know why exactly, other than maybe there are a few people. I actually belong to one of those groups. I belong to an anonymous fellowship for friends and family members of drunks or recovering alcoholics too. And I think there are a number of people in rooms that I've met who sort of remind me of Stuart. And I guess the reason I came up with Stuart and the way he is is that one of the great things I learned going to this fellowship is that is that I can learn stuff from people who I never in a million years thought I could. And so I sort of deliberately made Stuart pretty silly and lame in a lot of ways, but very kind of courageous and sweet and vulnerable in his own way.
- [33:35]
Dan Aykroyd
I think that's one of the things I really love about the character, is that you do kind of have it both ways. You know, it's like really funny and you're really mocking the character and at the same time you could tell you have a real kind of affection and caring for him too.
- [33:48]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Well, actually, people who know me very well know that there's a lot of steward inside of me. A lot of the insecurity and a lot of the self doubt and all that stuff. And I think it's in a lot of people because I think there are parts of all of us that are very vulnerable and very, you know, can be stupid at times. And I think it's okay, you know, it's fine to. To give yourself permission to do that and not, you know, beat yourself up.
- [34:21]
Dan Aykroyd
How do you deal with some of the language of the recovery movement which you mock a Lot, but also probably have some respect for it, too. Like Stuart's always saying, you know, well, this isn't my best show, but that's okay. So there's all this, like, affirmation in the language.
- [34:37]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Well, affirmations are. First of all, program has this incredible amount of jargon.
- [34:43]
Dan Aykroyd
Yeah.
- [34:44]
Unnamed Speaker 1
And the jargon is usually just a shorthand for some concept. So all it really is is just a way for someone to grasp, hold on to a concept. And most of these concepts are pretty sound. And so. But the jargon can get pretty grating and silly. And yet when it. When the concept has helped you so much and the way you got to the concept was through the jargon, you kind of hold on to the jargon. So that's that. Stuart is a program junkie. So he is a jargon junkie. So actually, people send me. Send me these things. I got one the other day, which is fear is a dark room where negatives get developed, which is a gift through the mail. So if you got good. If you're listening, you got good ones, send them to me. Stuart will use them.
- [35:38]
Dan Aykroyd
What are some of your other favorites?
- [35:41]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Another one someone sent to me was, it's easier to put on slippers than to carpet the entire world.
- [35:49]
Dan Aykroyd
Yes. I like that a lot.
- [35:51]
Unnamed Speaker 1
And there's one I'm doing that I heard in program that I'm using this week, because Stuart is going to be. I think is going to be on the show this week. He's apologizing for yesterday's show, which is what he always does, and he evidently took Madonna's inventory, and he says, which is. This is a good thing to remember when you're pointing a finger at someone else. Remember, there are three fingers pointing back at you.
- [36:20]
Dan Aykroyd
Now tell me your reaction to this aspect of the recovery movement, the people who say humor is a good recovery tool.
- [36:27]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Mm. Well, Stuart believes that.
- [36:29]
Dan Aykroyd
Yeah.
- [36:31]
Unnamed Speaker 1
He says one of the affirmations is, today I will laugh at least once, and I've already laughed today, so I'm fine.
- [36:42]
Dan Aykroyd
There are some people in the recovery movement who really do believe that humor is good therapy. So although they are humorless themselves, they have taught themselves, like, little jokes and little ways to be humorous, and they're very proud of it, and it's a kind of, like, prescription for their health. Do you come across people like that? And I wonder how you react to them and how they react to you.
- [37:03]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Well, you know, that's funny. As you said that. It's true. And it's the first time I've realized that. Which I can't believe. That's the first time I realized that. Thank you for. No, it is true. There are people who I. Because there are laughter in these rooms, by the way. There's much. I've gone to some open AA meetings, and there's a lot more laughter in. In Alcoholics Anonymous than in Al Anon, which is really unfair if you think about it. But, no, there are. You're absolutely right. There are people who just by nature have no sense of humor, but know that it's a good thing and are working on it, and it's a really, really ugly thing to observe. But I, you know, God bless them.
- [37:53]
David Biancooli
Al Franken, speaking to Terry Gross in 1992. He left Saturday Night Live in 1995, and 14 years later was elected as the Democratic senator for Minnesota, where he served until 2018. We'll end our Saturday Night Live tribute with a brief visit with one of the cast members who became a star during Franken's second stint with the show, John Lovitz, who was part of the repertory company from 1984 to 1990. The characters he created included Tommy Flanagan, the pathological liar, and Master Thespian, the pretentious actor. In 1992, he told Terry the story behind the creation of Master Thespian.
- [38:33]
Jon Lovitz
I went to college at UC Irvine, and there was a professor of mine, William Needles, who taught me Shakespeare. And when he would do it though himself, he'd always go. He'd say the opening speech from Henry V. The chorus was, oh, for a music that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention. And he would say, like, oh, for a music that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention. Like that. And I thought it was very funny. I thought it was very good, but very funny, too. And I used to imitate him. And then. And then I kind of put it together with, you know. And then I wanted to be an actor. And an actor is a. You know, that's what a thespian is. So I was like, the master thespian. You know, I was just joking around. My friends, I'm the master thespian because I just wanted to be a great actor. That was my goal.
- [39:19]
Dan Aykroyd
One of my favorite sketches of the ones that you've done on Saturday Night Live was Harry Hanukkah. Did you write that?
- [39:26]
Jon Lovitz
No, Al Franken and Mike Myers wrote.
- [39:29]
Dan Aykroyd
It.
- [39:31]
Jon Lovitz
But I based it. They wrote it, and it was really funny. And then I based it on this actor, Ned Glass. Ned Glass, he talks like this. And he was the father on Bridget and Bernie, he was the Jewish father he was in. He's probably the best in the west side Story. He was Pops, I guess, who runs the drugstore, the candy store. And when I was 15 years old.
- [39:55]
Dan Aykroyd
What's wrong with you kids?
- [39:57]
Jon Lovitz
Well, if you see these movies, you know who he is. When I was 15 years old, I was at my best friend's house, and his father is a doctor, and Ned Glass was one of his patients. And I was 15, and my friend's father says to Ned Glass, john wants to be an actor. And he says, you want to be an actor? He goes, what would you do if you hurt your toe? And I said, I'd say, ouch. He goes, would you say ouch if you were Hercules? And he goes, you know what you have to do, because you know what you have to know to be an actor? You have to know everything you think you could know, everything you have to know everything you know.
- [40:34]
Unnamed Speaker 1
So.
- [40:35]
Jon Lovitz
As if he knew everything. And he goes, you know, there was only he. And he was literally. He was the same in everything he played. And he was. You know, he was a good actor, and he was funny, but he was always. He was just himself. He was exactly the same. He says, you know, there was only two actors who were never typecast, Me and Paul Muhney. Anyways, I never forgot him. So I. That's why. And he was good. He was a funny actor. You know, he's funny, but, you know, he never. I guess he always thought he played all these different characters, and really, he was just always, hello, how are you? I mean, and Julius Caesar in the movie with Marlon Brando, he's in the opening market scene, and everyone's going, my Lord, come here. And hither. And he's in the market saying, you want to buy some oranges, my lord? You know.
- [41:23]
Dan Aykroyd
Were there any jokers in your family? Did you have a father who'd sit around the dinner table and tell jokes?
- [41:31]
Jon Lovitz
Yeah, he used to goof off, and he used to make prank phone calls. And, I mean, the look for annoying man I got from him. He used to comb his hair forward and wear his glasses low. He didn't act like that, but that's where I got the look from. And he used to. He used to do something. He used to come home and tell us he was his twin brother, Howard. We would be like 7 or 8, but he would play it so straight for like a half an hour and just insist on it. And then he would leave, and then like 20 minutes later come back. I guess he would just wait in his car. And then we'd say Howard was here. He goes, he was, you know.
- [42:10]
Dan Aykroyd
So he really had a twin brother, Howard, huh?
- [42:12]
Jon Lovitz
No, he didn't.
- [42:12]
Dan Aykroyd
Oh, he didn't?
- [42:13]
Jon Lovitz
No, he just said he did.
- [42:14]
Dan Aykroyd
I see. Okay.
- [42:15]
Jon Lovitz
We were young. He would do stuff like that.
- [42:17]
David Biancooli
Jon Lovitz speaking to Terry Gross in 1992. The 50th anniversary of Saturday Night Live is being celebrated all weekend with a live concert streaming on Peacock tonight, a repeat of the very first episode of SNL in the show's regular late night Saturday time slot on NBC, and a three hour live special on NBC Sunday night. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews a new movie that's also an old movie. He'll explain after a break. This is FRESH air.
- [42:46]
Unnamed Speaker 2
This message comes from Pemco Mutual Insurance Company. You know that moment when things take an unexpected turn and you get that sudden sinking feeling that maybe it could have been avo? Pemco Insurance wants to help you avoid that feeling by sharing prevention tips that empower you to prevent some of life's preventable pitfalls. Because Pemco's commitment to their customers goes beyond the moment of acclaim, it's about being with their customers every day. More@pemco.com Prevention this message comes from NPR.
- [43:15]
Capella University
Sponsor Viori Jump into a new perspective on performance apparel. Viori makes products that stand the test of time and hope to inspire others to live vibrant, healthy lives, empowering your best life in clothing that can be worn for just about any activity from running to yoga. Visit vuori.com NPR to receive 20% off your first purchase and enjoy free shipping on any US orders over $75. Discover the versatility of Viori clothing.
- [43:46]
David Biancooli
This week sees the belated release of the Annihilation of Fish, which premiered at the Toronto film festival in 1999 but is only now opening in theaters for the first time. It's a romantic comedy starring the late trio of James Earl Jones, Lynn Redgrave and Margot Kidder, and was directed by Charles Burnett, best known for his 1978 classic Killer of Sheep. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review of the Annihilation of fish.
- [44:14]
Capella University
The 80 year old Charles Burnett is often thought of as one of American cinema's last true independence. His movies, most of which focus on working class black families in his home city of Los Angeles, have been underseen, underexposed and sometimes misunderstood. In the past couple of decades, he's been rightly recognized as one of the greats. His 1978 first feature, Killer of Sheep, was released in theaters in 2007 and widely hailed as a masterpiece. Burnett himself received an honorary Oscar in 2017. Critics have played their part in Burnett's rediscovery, though some have been blamed for burying his work in the first place. His 1983 feature, My Brother's Wedding was never properly released for reasons often attributed to a mixed review in the New York Times. And this week brings the overdue arrival of Burnett's 1999 comedy the Annihilation of Fish, which, because of a pan from Variety, as the story goes, never landed an American distributor. That we can see it now, nearly 26 years later, is due to the remarkable efforts of the UCLA Film and Television Archive, the Film foundation and Milestone Films, which worked together to restore the movie. It's now getting a limited theatrical release. There are a lot of reasons to seek out the Annihilation of Fish, especially since it's a rare chance to see three late, great actors on screen. Lynn Redgrave, Margot Kidder and James Earl Jones, who died just last year at the age of 93. Here, a 60 something Jones plays a Jamaican American man who goes by the name Fish and who's just been released from a 10 year stay in an LA mental institution. Fish isn't a danger to anyone. He's honest and unfailingly polite. Every so often, though, he gets into an aggressive wrestling match with a demon that only he apparently can see. Around the same time, we meet Redgrave's character, a San Francisco woman named Poinsettia, who, like Fish, has an active fantasy life. Shea believes she's being romanced by puccini. Imagine if Ms. Havisham from Great Expectations were an opera buff and you're halfway there. Through a strange turn of events, Poinsettia moves to LA and rents an apartment in a boarding house just across the hall from Fish. The house otherwise appears to be empty except for their watchful landlady, Mrs. Muldroon, played by a lovely Margot Kidder. One night, Fish finds Poinsettia passed out drunk outside his door and brings her inside his apartment so she can sleep it off. From this odd encounter is born an equally odd friendship. Despite some initial wariness, they soon take a liking to each other and spend their days together playing cards. While Puccini's ghost is pretty much history at this point, Fish's demon is still very active. During one of their wrestling bouts, Fish asks Poinsettia to referee, even though she of course, can't see the demon herself.
- [47:31]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Close your eyes. Yeah.
- [47:34]
Unnamed Speaker 2
Believe me.
- [47:34]
Dan Aykroyd
Oh, okay.
- [47:36]
Terry Gross
No fighting, no gouging.
- [47:38]
Unnamed Speaker 1
What I say goes.
- [47:40]
Dan Aykroyd
And are you ready, Fish?
- [47:42]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Oh, I'm ready.
- [47:43]
Terry Gross
What's his name?
- [47:45]
Unnamed Speaker 1
Hank.
- [47:46]
Terry Gross
Hank?
- [47:47]
Dan Aykroyd
Hank. Who ever heard of a demon named Hank?
- [47:50]
Unnamed Speaker 1
That's his name.
- [47:51]
Capella University
All right, let's get down to business, fruitcake. All right.
- [47:54]
Dan Aykroyd
Ready, Hank.
- [47:56]
Capella University
While he clearly isn't afraid of broad comedy, Burnett has no use for strained quirkiness. He doesn't deploy his characters as cheap comic relief or treat their strangeness as a problem to be solved. He finds the loopy logic even in their most illogical behavior. I think he wants us to look at Fish in poinsettia pretty much the same way the landlady, Mrs. Muldroon, does, although a touch stern at first. She comes to accept and even appreciate them in all their eccentricities. Whatever may ail Fish in poinsettia, friendship and love appear to be the only medicine they need. Fish cooks poinsettia Jamaican food. She takes him to the park, and in time, their bond turns romantic. At one point, Fish worries that the two of them have nothing in common, to which Poinsettia replies, old is what we have in common. It's one of many lines I laughed at in the Annihilation of Fish, which doesn't shy away from the realities of aging or the fitful complications of an interracial romance. But it doesn't inflate those things into obstacles either. What finally makes Fish and poinsettia seem like an ideal match is simply the chemistry between the actors themselves, the way Jones's gravitas tempers Redgrave's intensity, and the way her wild energy brings out his own. Burnett has made a simple yet beguiling film about how two imperfect people can find a kind of perfection in each other's company and how sometimes in life and in the movies, good things do come to those who wait.
- [49:37]
David Biancooli
Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker. He reviewed Charles Burnett's the Annihilation of Fish, now playing in selected theaters. On Monday's show, we devote President's Day to understanding the scope of President Donald Trump's power as he continues to potentially break laws, use billionaire Elon Musk to dismantle the government and circumvent Congress. I hope you can join us. FRESH air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Hertzfeld and Diana Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm David Biancooli.
- [50:40]
Unnamed Speaker 2
This message comes from Warby Parker if you wear glasses, you know how hard it is to find the perfect pair. But step into a Warby Parker store and you'll see it doesn't have to be. Find a Warby Parker store near you@warbyparker.com retail. This message comes from Best Western Hotels and Resorts. If you love a good podcast, then you must love a good story. And the best stories start with a great trip. That's where Best Western comes in. Whether you've been planning a getaway for weeks or just got the itch to go, Best Western has you covered with over 4000 hotels worldwide. Wherever your story takes you, make it memorable. Life's a trip. Make the most of it@bestwestern.com support for NPR and the following message come from Universal Pictures with DreamWorks animations the Wild Robot, nominated for three Academy Awards, including best sound, best original score and best animated feature. Now playing in theaters and available to watch at home on Peacock.