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- [00:01]
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- [00:16]
Tonya Moseley
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Moseley with filmmaker Spike Lee. There are a few guarantees. The story will have something to say, the images will enter the cultural conversation, and he's gonna weave in New York any chance he gets. Over 40 years in more than 35 films, Spike Lee has captured defining moments in American life. The racial tensions on the hottest day of the year in do the Right Thing, the sweeping life of Malcolm X and the devastation and aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and When the Levees Broke. He's given us dramas, comedies and documentaries that take on power, history, race and community. And along the way, he's introduced audiences to actors we now can't imagine Hollywood without Halle Berry, Rosie Perez, Samuel L. Jackson and Denzel Washington.
- [01:06]
Spike Lee
You're leaving out Gene Bunny, Giancarlo Esposito. We'll be here forever.
- [01:09]
Tonya Moseley
We will be here forever. His latest highest to lowest flips Akira Kurosawa's 1963 classic high and Low into a modern day hip hop drama. Denzel Washington plays a music mogul whose world unravels when his family is pulled into a ransom plot. Jeffrey Wright and A$AP Rocky round out the cast with Rocky stepping into a Spike Lee joint for the first time. And Spike Lee, welcome back to FRESH air.
- [01:37]
Spike Lee
When was the last time I was here?
- [01:38]
Tonya Moseley
I know it's been some years.
- [01:39]
Spike Lee
It's been a minute. Look, I'm happy to be here. Let's go.
- [01:44]
Tonya Moseley
Let's go. Let me tell audiences about this film. So in this film, Denzel Washington plays David King. He owns this record label, this very successful record label, and his son, along with the son of his friend and Dr. Jeffrey Wright, is kidnapped for ransom. And the kidnapper, played by A$AP Rocky, accidentally releases the wrong young man, leaving King and the decision to fork over $17.5 million in French.
- [02:12]
Spike Lee
In Swiss francs.
- [02:13]
Tonya Moseley
In Swiss francs for a young man who is not his son. Let's listen to a clip.
- [02:19]
Spike Lee
King David. Now ain't this Son. Sorry I got your full attention now, huh? You finally listening to me? Yeah, I'm listening. Good. You know you got the wrong boy, right? Yeah, so I've heard. And I also learned you can never trust the help. But luckily for me, it was never about the boy. It was always about you. Well, fair enough. But if it's about me, then you can't expect me to pay 17 and a half million dollars for somebody else's son. If it's about me, then his blood is gonna be on your hands. Then how you want it? Nah, man, come on now. This ain't no negotiation. That's a day of reckoning. You not God no more? I am. All right, listen. God give you everything you want, right? No. God give you everything you need. So the question is, what do you need? How can I help you? I ain't saying I'm God, but I could help.
- [03:06]
Tonya Moseley
That was a scene from Spike Lee's newest film, Highest to Lowest. Spike. This film wrestles with a couple of different themes. But there is this main question that is being asked. What would you do to save your own child? What would you do to save the child of someone you love? And you've always taken on subjects that kind of move with time. Like you're asking a moral question in your work. What was it in particular about this story, reimagining this story that you felt like was so important to tell right now?
- [03:40]
Spike Lee
Well, I'm glad to use the word reimagining. I say reinterpretation cause I'm running away from the word remake. But Kurosawa's film, the great Kira Kurosawa, who made this film, Post War Japan, 1963, is from a book by our writer, Ed McBain. And the strength of this film, the strength of the book and Kurosaw's film, it really deals with morality. And when you have a actor, and in the Japanese version, Tisha Mifune, one of the great, great actors, and with Denzel, who's right there, great actors, when they're going through trials and tribulations, the audience becomes engaged and they're with that person every step of the way. Consequently, audiences, when they see this film, the ones we've seen already, they're with Denzel's character, David King, and they ask themselves, what would they do?
- [04:41]
Tonya Moseley
Right? Right.
- [04:42]
Spike Lee
What would they do in the position that they see on screen that great, magnificent Denzel Washington is in? And it takes star quality. Here's the thing. The reason why people star is because they have the talent and the audience is engaged. And from the jump, the audience has been engaged with Mr. Denzel Washington. And I've been blessed with five of those dynamic duos.
- [05:10]
Tonya Moseley
Right? You guys are like Martin Scorsese and Robert De Niro. Yeah.
- [05:14]
Spike Lee
Or you could say the late, great Seton Lumet and Al Pacino. You could say Francis Ford with Brando and Godfather in Apocalypse Now. So throughout history, you had these pairings.
- [05:34]
Tonya Moseley
There's something a little disconcerting, I'll say, about seeing Denzel and this character. He portrays it so well. I've seen the film twice, and, you know.
- [05:43]
Spike Lee
Twice.
- [05:44]
Tonya Moseley
Yeah. The first time I was like, man, he's so. He's, like, disheveled a little bit. He's not like a man. He's at the top, but he doesn't appear at the top. The second time, I felt like that's on purpose, like there's something that's being seen in the way that he's moving, that perhaps he's out of step with this moment.
- [06:04]
Spike Lee
Well, I think that's a great observation. I mean, he's not at the top anymore. His label, record label, stack of hits, is not putting out the hits anymore. So he's in a very vulnerable part. And. And also when you're at the top and that point comes, you're not the top anymore. That's. That's earth shaking.
- [06:29]
Tonya Moseley
In the original film. In Kurosawa's film, the protagonist is a shoe executive.
- [06:36]
Spike Lee
Right.
- [06:37]
Tonya Moseley
And yours a music mogul. Why did you choose music? It's an interesting.
- [06:41]
Spike Lee
Well, that was the script went through Hollywood for many years, and so when it ended up in Denzel's hands, that change hadn't already been made. So I got a call. Denzel says, spike, you got this script. You want to read it? Yeah, send it FedEx. And before I even hung up the phone, I knew I wanted to do the film. Not even knowing, having read what. What the script was and what it was about. Condenzo didn't say. He didn't describe it, just said, I got a script. I want you to read it. And that's the way it happened.
- [07:10]
Tonya Moseley
It's interesting that that was already the way the script was written when it got to you. And of course, immediately you're like, yes, music is such an integral part of your work. It's interwoven into your story.
- [07:21]
Spike Lee
It's part of the filmmaking.
- [07:22]
Tonya Moseley
Yeah, it's part of the filmmaking. There's this piece of music, though, right off the top. It's. You open with the 1943 Rodgers and Hammerstein oh, what a Beautiful Morning from Oklahoma.
- [07:38]
Spike Lee
Right.
- [07:39]
Tonya Moseley
But the rest of the film is like soul and hip hop. How did that. Is there a story behind you?
- [07:44]
Spike Lee
Well, I love all types of music, and I remember my mother, who was a cinephile. My father hated movies, but my mother is a cinephile. I'm the oldest, so they both have passed. But she was the one that. I was my mother's movie date because my father hated Hollywood. So we. She introduced me a whole lot of films. Of course, at the time, I didn't want. I mean, I wanted to run up. I was a wild, broken kid, run up and down the streets and play stickball and stoop ball stuff. But she says, you know, I'm taking your little rusty butt. We're going through the movies. So I don't care what you say. And here's the thing, though. Every time I look, I don't want to go. I don't want to go. And then we're coming out theater. I said, mommy, that was good. So it's just an example of kids don't know. And when parents take the time, introduce their stuff to children who might go kicking and screaming, but when they come out of the theater or the movie theater or the museum, whatever, you know, you can say, lies been changed. And I know that's happened to me.
- [08:56]
Tonya Moseley
Do you remember one of the movies your mom took you to that really stuck with you?
- [08:59]
Spike Lee
All right, this is. This is a famous one. I've said this before. So anybody at home who's seen heard this before? Excuse me. My mother loved Sean Connery as James Bond 007. And my mother, she didn't. She would. She always want to go to the opening weekend of these films. And the theater was packed. And you know those early James Bond films, explosions, gunplay, just. Just crazy stuff. And there was a lull in the film. You have to have those. You can't do that the whole length of the film. You got to get the audience of breath, you know, just some quiet, you know, and that there's completely quiet. I said to my mother, mommy, why is that lady. Why is her name Pussy Galore? The whole thing I heard that my mother grabbed me by the neck and said, don't you say another thing. What I do. What I do. True story. But that film came out in 63. I was born. I was six years old, right?
- [10:10]
Tonya Moseley
You're like, what's this?
- [10:11]
Spike Lee
I don't know, but it just sound like a funny name to me.
- [10:14]
Tonya Moseley
And you still remember to this day.
- [10:17]
Spike Lee
Hey, every time that word, even adult probably says about that name of that character, my mother was embarrassed.
- [10:27]
Tonya Moseley
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Spike Lee. His latest film, Highest to Lowest, is a reimagining of Akira Kurosawa's 1963 classic High and Low. Set in the world of American hip hop and global fame. We'll continue our conversation after short break. This is FRESH air.
- [10:45]
Capital One Announcer
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- [11:03]
Spike Lee
Why spend time wondering what your car is worth? Instantly track its value on Carvana Value Tracker, answer a few quick questions and stay up to speed on your car's value. Track your car's value@carvana.com today we're talking.
- [11:19]
Tonya Moseley
To Spike Lee, the director, writer and producer whose more than 35 films include do the Right Thing, Malcolm X, BlacKkKlansman and When the Levees Broke. His latest movie, highest to Lowest, stars Denzel Washington as a music mogul whose life unravels when his family is targeted in a ransom plot. The film also stars A$AP Rocky. Denzel's character has lost his ear really. Like he's become so far away from that hungry, artistic guy he was at the beginning of his life.
- [11:52]
Spike Lee
There's a great scene where his wife, played by little fish there says that, you know, she doesn't see the joy anymore, Right.
- [12:00]
Tonya Moseley
And it's something that I heard happen often. I mean, sometimes I can feel it. You get to midlife and you feel like this thing that you're so passionate about, it's ebbs. There are ebbs and flows, ebbs and flows. Have you ever been there? No, you've not. You've always had a passion film.
- [12:20]
Spike Lee
Oh, that's look, I can't talk for anybody else, but for me, I've never had fell out of love with cinema because I tell this to my students. I'm a tenured professor of film at NYU Graduate Film School, Ernest Dickinson, great camera shot all my films up the mountain. X. Ang Lee was my classmate. Jim Drommerce was two years ahead of us. So my love has always been there. Now there's a business side that's different. But just talking about making films and I truly believe I was put here to be a storyteller. So I'll never, you know, you got the BS but push that aside, sometimes it could be a big pile, right?
- [13:08]
Tonya Moseley
Like, how do you not allow yourself to be consumed by all of that stuff you just have to deal with to get to the thing you love so much?
- [13:15]
Spike Lee
Because when you get to the thing, after going through a lot of stuff, you're getting through the thing you love. And to break it down even a little more for my sister in the audience. First day of class, I tell my students that I'm lucky. And if you could make a living doing what you love, you won.
- [13:37]
Tonya Moseley
There's this explosive, propulsive scene in the film in highest to lowest. It's like the apex part of it. It happens during the Puerto Rican Day parade. And I want to talk a little bit about.
- [13:52]
Spike Lee
I'm hearing something out. Who are the fans on the number four train and where they're going?
- [13:56]
Tonya Moseley
Baseball.
- [13:57]
Spike Lee
And they're New York Yankee fans.
- [13:59]
Tonya Moseley
Yankee fans, right.
- [14:00]
Spike Lee
And who are the Yankees playing that day in Yankee Stadium?
- [14:03]
Tonya Moseley
Boston.
- [14:04]
Spike Lee
They hate it. Red Sox.
- [14:05]
Tonya Moseley
Right, right. We got it. We can't, like, leave that. There's so many. I mean, that whole scene. There's so much there.
- [14:12]
Spike Lee
You know, what's that called, Really? A set piece.
- [14:15]
Tonya Moseley
Say more. What does that mean?
- [14:17]
Spike Lee
A set of a scene that stands out?
- [14:20]
Tonya Moseley
Yes.
- [14:20]
Spike Lee
Yeah, that's a set piece. But also the set piece. There's one like that in the original, too, on the bullet trains in Tokyo, Japan. So both scenes take place where the ransom is dumped to be picked up by the kidnapper.
- [14:38]
Tonya Moseley
I was wondering what came first. Was it the music and the parade? Was it the scene in the train? Was it. Because it's really like a story about New York set inside of a throne.
- [14:48]
Spike Lee
Well, it had to. It comes from the original. I mean, that's where inspiration comes from. But I knew I cannot do a reinterpretation of that, but not even use this scene, a famous scene from that film. And I. The. The. The thing that was important, that the character played by Ace of Rocky. I don't want to be. People think this just a young thug rapper is. You know, no young thug is smart, even though his intentions are off the mark. But I also don't want to play the NYPD as dopes, as stupid. So I had to come up this scenario where it'll be. It would be very complicated for NYPD to stop this thing happening. Right. So autonomic. I thought about having this. Think they're having this drop, ransom drop happen on a Sunday afternoon, Yankee Stadium, the Red Sox in town. And also on top of that, the Puerto Rican Day parade is always on a Sunday. So have both of those on a Sunday. And then I went out to my brother, Eddie Palmeri, who recently. He passed away three days, Three or four days before the premiere in New York in Brooklyn.
- [16:11]
Tonya Moseley
Did he ever have a chance to see it? Did he see himself in it?
- [16:14]
Spike Lee
No. And filming this, you know, we were Very respectful. And it was not done to playback. We did seven or eight takes, I don't remember exactly. And each time was live. The Eddie Palmeri South Orchestra playing live. And when you see the film, you can see the joy in Eddie's face as he's performing and doing a thing that he was born to be on earth, you know, to perform and sing and represent the great people Puerto Rico.
- [16:41]
Tonya Moseley
It's such a moving scene, too, also in knowing and understanding that he just passed away. We just lost him.
- [16:48]
Spike Lee
One of the giants, in general. One of the giants. And it was very emotional. At the premiere in New York in Brooklyn, we had Eddie ii. There's many members of the family were there, too. He spoke to the audience before we began the film.
- [17:07]
Tonya Moseley
Oh, that's beautiful. I want to stay on highest to lowest because I wanted to tour this penthouse apartment that Denzel has.
- [17:19]
Spike Lee
That's a real building.
- [17:20]
Tonya Moseley
It's a real building. And the art and the artifacts, is that. Tell me the story about that. Are those your pieces?
- [17:27]
Spike Lee
A lot of them are, but copies were made because stuck is messed up on a film. So I can have somebody accidentally put a hole in the Basquiat. We weren't.
- [17:41]
Tonya Moseley
I've heard that before.
- [17:42]
Spike Lee
Richard Avedon, Port of Lena Horne, you know, so those reports. And then we finished those. Those copies were destroyed.
- [17:51]
Tonya Moseley
Okay, so like copies of copies, but just to describe for the audience, I mean, Basquiats on the wall.
- [17:57]
Spike Lee
It's a shortcut. It's a shortcut to show that this is a fluent black family.
- [18:03]
Tonya Moseley
Yeah.
- [18:03]
Spike Lee
You know, and the money first you see where they live from open credit secrets. But when you go inside their penthouse, you see there's millions of dollars on.
- [18:13]
Tonya Moseley
The wall of black art, in particular.
- [18:17]
Spike Lee
A lot of that art is owned by my wife and I. Tonya, when.
- [18:23]
Tonya Moseley
Did you start collecting art?
- [18:25]
Spike Lee
Well, I started collecting comic books, baseball cards, basketball cards. So the art thing came much later when I had some money. But here's the thing. I'm under the age where our mothers threw out our comic books, our baseball card, which were worth thousands and thousands today. We didn't know. Here's the thing, though, especially in Brooklyn, we're flipping cards. We're putting cards on a. On our bike. So you get the. On the spokes so you can hear the noise. No one knew.
- [19:00]
Tonya Moseley
Yes.
- [19:01]
Spike Lee
No one knew that they would be worth something. Millions of dollars.
- [19:06]
Tonya Moseley
Right. You could have funded your first. She's got a habit with all of those.
- [19:10]
Spike Lee
Which cost. Which cost 100, $175,000, which was their car's worth more than that. Right?
- [19:19]
Tonya Moseley
I follow this young woman on TikTok and she talks a lot about art and she. I think she was an art history major. And she's like, out in the world now, just starting out. And I was like, she seems familiar, I don't know. And then one day, I happen across one of her videos, and it's your daughter. So she grew up. Yeah, she grew up around all this, right?
- [19:38]
Spike Lee
Yeah, yeah, she's grown. So is my son Jackson, and they're both in the arts. My daughter's a great photographer. My son Jackson, you know, he's worse for me. He's like the merchandise, you know, getting deals done. So they're both, you know, thriving.
- [20:02]
Tonya Moseley
They're thriving, but art.
- [20:05]
Spike Lee
Is the bedrock.
- [20:07]
Tonya Moseley
It's the bedrock because they grew up.
- [20:08]
Spike Lee
You know, with the new. My wife Tanya's a producer, too. In fact, the film she produced was the first place I saw asap. Rocky in that film.
- [20:22]
Tonya Moseley
Wait, that was her film? His first film. What is it called?
- [20:25]
Spike Lee
The title of the film that Time produced. Dope was Dope. That's why I first saw Rocky in front of the camera, not a music video in the film. Rocky's performance is amazing. Last night, the screening here in la, I gave him a big hug. I said, look, I love you, you're great. But the next film, you can't play a rapper. You cannot just be corned into doing this role again. You have immense talent, so please don't play another rapper right after this.
- [20:58]
Tonya Moseley
Right. You see more, you see depth. There's a lot of comparisons people give to him and Denzel because of the way they look.
- [21:06]
Spike Lee
The first I saw, checking it out five years ago, saying, this guy looks like Denzel, Denzel's son.
- [21:14]
Tonya Moseley
Yeah.
- [21:14]
Spike Lee
And. And that was evil for, you know, this, this, this. The whole thing in the high and low, happening, highest and lowest happening. Yeah, I mean, the community said that. I don't want him to be put in the. In the corner this early in his career. Yeah, I mean, he has. I mean, he's a leading man.
- [21:34]
Tonya Moseley
Let's take a short break. My guest today is Spike Lee. We're talking about his new film, Highest to Lowest. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Moseley and this is Fresh Air. If you're a robot, this might not be the show for you.
- [21:46]
Capital One Announcer
But if you're a human with hopes.
- [21:48]
Tonya Moseley
Dreams and bills to pay, the Life Kit podcast might be just what you need. Three times a week, Life Kit brings you a fresh set of solutions to help you tackle topics big and small, from how to save money on groceries to how to bring the house down at karaoke. You know, human stuff. Listen to the Life Kit podcast from npr, presentado por Mariel Segarra.
- [22:09]
Spike Lee
There's a lot of news happening.
- [22:10]
Tonya Moseley
You want to understand it better, but.
- [22:12]
Spike Lee
Let'S be honest, you don't want it.
- [22:13]
Tonya Moseley
To be your entire life either. Well, that's sort of like our show here and Now Anytime. Every weekday on our podcast, we talk to people all over the country about everything from political analysis to climate resilience, video games. We even talk about dumpster diving on this show. Just check out here and now, Anytime. A daily podcast from NPR and wbur.
- [22:32]
Spike Lee
I'm Peter Sagal. NPR is very serious. Mostly, it treats newsmakers with all due respect almost all the time. It brings you the most important information about the issues that really matter usually. And it never asks famous people about things they don't know anything about except once in a while. Join us for the great exception. Listen to Wait, wait, don't tell me. The news quiz from npr.
- [22:54]
Tonya Moseley
I'm actually just thinking about you back when you first came on the scene. I mean, you came like a lightning bolt. You talk about campaigning for Malcolm X, putting that nicely. I remember the media really portraying you, talking to you a lot about being angry. And I had this debate with my husband about it because I was like, I actually really loved it. I felt like, you know, as a young person being anti establishment, you felt.
- [23:21]
Spike Lee
Like, what did your husband say?
- [23:22]
Tonya Moseley
Well, he said, well, I never thought he was angry. I just thought he was confident and knew what he wanted and had a point of view.
- [23:27]
Spike Lee
Right.
- [23:28]
Tonya Moseley
But what was your assessment? You were kind of tough on the media those early days?
- [23:32]
Spike Lee
Well, they were tough on me, you know, this belligerent young rabble rouser. I mean, when do the Right Thing came out, you know, I was portrayed as a racist and Mookie threw garbage can through the Sal's famous window and jungle fever. I said I was anti Semitic because of how they felt the betrayal of the two Jewish owners of the club played by the Turturro brothers, Nick and John. So I don't combat that type of criticism as much. I used to. Of course, it died down. But when do the Right Thing premiered in Cannes 1989, American journalists were saying that this film was going to cause riots, black people riot in summertime. And they were pleading to Universal Pictures, if you're going to release the film, don't release in summertime because they thought.
- [24:29]
Tonya Moseley
That would be where we'd be all riled up or something.
- [24:32]
Spike Lee
Yeah, it's kind of crazy looking back on that. Like a film's not going to do that. But when you, if you look, that film really had the, the crystal ball. When you look at the killing, the murder of Ray Rahim by the NYPD and the chokehold, where did that happen? We were talking about global warming. A lot of things in that film, you know, we talked about came to life in later years.
- [25:01]
Tonya Moseley
I mean, the socio political message it almost mirrored to a T 2020.
- [25:07]
Spike Lee
Yes.
- [25:07]
Tonya Moseley
That's when everyone was talking about it. Like Radio Raheem became a meme.
- [25:11]
Spike Lee
Raheem and I wrote that script in 80, we shot in 89. And you know, look, I'm not happy. I'm not bragging about that, but we, I'm not happy that the stuff you had in the film ended up happening in real life. Yeah, but it did.
- [25:27]
Tonya Moseley
The thing about it is it seems like we didn't have the. We weren't there yet in the 80s and 90s to have a true conversation about. It came back up in 2020 allowed us to tap into it a little bit.
- [25:39]
Spike Lee
And I know you're saying cis, but. But it's sad that people had to die for this to happen. Yeah, Families were destroyed because of this. They really weaponized the word woke. And as we sit here in la, you know, the. They got the feds now trying to take over D.C. formerly known as Tropic City. We live, you know, the world now is bananas.
- [26:12]
Tonya Moseley
Let's talk a little bit about your documentary work because you've done quite a few of them. Academy Award nominated Four Little Girls, about the 63 Birmingham church bombing. Bad 25, which I forgot about, but bad 25 about Michael Jackson's bad album. And that's not, I mean, that's not even a full list.
- [26:31]
Spike Lee
Off the wall.
- [26:32]
Tonya Moseley
Off the wall. I've heard many storytellers say, especially documentarians, like, they take on work that they can't get out of their heads. And I wanted to know, what's your rubric for finding the documentary stories that you want to tell?
- [26:48]
Spike Lee
For me, I don't make a distinction between feature films and documentaries. For me, it's storytelling. And one of the most significant films ever made was Four Little Girls, which is about the 19 September 1963 bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama. And the goal was to talk to the parents, the relatives, the teachers, talk about these four beautiful young black girls who were murdered Murdered by multiple sticks of dynamite. And who these beautiful young girls might have been if they were allowed to live. These members of the KKK stuck dynamite in a place of worship, a church. And murdered four beautiful young black girls who weren't allowed to live. Who knows what they might have been. Mothers, grandchildren. Their life was, you know, snuffed out with active hate. J. Edgar Hoover was not a friend of black folks. Not a friend of Dr. King or the civil rights movement that week. They know who did it. Who was one of the people. The guy's nickname was Dynamite Bob. And we wanted this film to be seen. I did it at hbo. We wanted this film to be eligible for the best feature length documentary. And so in order to do that you have to have a week long run theatrical run. And a couple days before that I got a call by FBI. I don't know why they're calling me. They said they would like to see a print of the film. And a week later they reopened the case. Wow. And sent to those. Those murderers to prison. They've been walking around free since September 9th. Jacob Hoover. They knew who did it.
- [29:03]
Tonya Moseley
That's pretty powerful, Spike.
- [29:05]
Spike Lee
So I can't do anything to top that.
- [29:09]
Tonya Moseley
No. That's pretty.
- [29:10]
Spike Lee
And it's not thing I talk about a lot. But it did happen.
- [29:13]
Tonya Moseley
It's one of your most powerful pieces of work.
- [29:15]
Spike Lee
I agree.
- [29:16]
Tonya Moseley
You lost an Academy Award you were like nominated for, but you didn't win.
- [29:20]
Spike Lee
We did have A Funny Story.
- [29:21]
Tonya Moseley
Yeah.
- [29:23]
Spike Lee
So we got nominated and I told HBO we gotta bring the parents to la. So we did not win. And so at that time Denzel co owned a restaurant. So I was supposed to be the party, but it was a party and no one was upset about not winning because their night was made. They got a hug and a kiss on the cheek from Denzel Washer. And for them that was the Oscar. That was the Oscar. Denzel hugged him and gave him a kiss on the cheek and they got their Oscar.
- [30:01]
Tonya Moseley
Another story that you told was the story of Hurricane Katrina. And we're now coming up on the anniversary. I know that 20 years. Yeah.
- [30:09]
Spike Lee
Let me ask a question. My sister. What gotta help me here. What word can I say instead of anniversary?
- [30:17]
Tonya Moseley
Right. And commemoration doesn't work. It is like what is, what is the word that speaks to you?
- [30:23]
Spike Lee
I'll give you my email. So when you get that word right.
- [30:26]
Tonya Moseley
You find it because I think it's.
- [30:27]
Spike Lee
Coming up August 29th, right?
- [30:29]
Tonya Moseley
It is. Yeah.
- [30:30]
Spike Lee
Please give me that word because I refuse to say anniversary right to me. That's birthdays, wedding or what.
- [30:39]
Tonya Moseley
But what happened, happened 20 years ago.
- [30:42]
Spike Lee
I don't wanna.
- [30:43]
Tonya Moseley
Yep.
- [30:44]
Spike Lee
Help me. I can't say anniversary anymore. I won't say anniversary.
- [30:47]
Tonya Moseley
So you just say it's been 20 years. Yeah.
- [30:50]
Spike Lee
Thank you. Boom.
- [30:53]
Tonya Moseley
It's been 20 years. There's another documentary, Katrina, Come Hell or High Water, that you're associated with or you producer.
- [31:01]
Spike Lee
Yeah, executive producer of it. And there's three parts. I did the final episode of the three. And also Ryan Coogler has one too. So a big moment coming up.
- [31:11]
Tonya Moseley
What is it about this particular story? You've already done it with one. What is it that we. We need to revisit? That we need to sit with and understand about it in this second go round?
- [31:22]
Spike Lee
Americans have short memories. So that's why I came apart of this other. This is a revisiting of it. And here's another thing though, is that by going back 20 years and then looking at New Orleans today, they've lost a large part of the black population. Black folks have gone on and thrived in Houston, Atlanta, Georgia, Charlotte, North Carolina. It's a good argument to say that New Orleans has not.
- [31:56]
Tonya Moseley
To show us what it is now, what's been lost.
- [32:00]
Spike Lee
We're. I think that people are still dealing with that 20 years later. Right.
- [32:06]
Tonya Moseley
As you mentioned, your mom was deep into movies, your dad was a jazz musician. You grew up like just surrounded by music.
- [32:14]
Spike Lee
Creative household.
- [32:15]
Tonya Moseley
Creative household. And they often say we like love and we are connected to the music. That was a coming of age for us. Like we are often perpetually stuck in it. But as a creative, like, how do you view the moving times, the music that we're hearing today, without sounding like a fuddy duddy, like you see that.
- [32:35]
Spike Lee
Value and people complaining about rock and roll back in the day. So I'm not necessarily a purist that like my father was. I mean, anything that was played with electricity, you know, he was not. He was not with that. He always was Tone as is.
- [32:52]
Tonya Moseley
Like literally, like he didn't even like to play records.
- [32:55]
Spike Lee
My father, Bill Lee, was a top folk bassist working. He's on the first Simon and Garfunkel album, the first Gordon Lifetime. They play with Judy Collins. I mean a whole bunch of people. He's on the Bob Dylan album. And when Bob Dylan went electric, everybody went electric. And my father used to play Fender bass. He called it Tone as is. I'm not gonna do anything where electricity is used to amplify the sound to make it louder. Wow. And my mother had to go to work.
- [33:25]
Tonya Moseley
Wow.
- [33:26]
Spike Lee
If you saw Crooklyn, that.
- [33:28]
Tonya Moseley
That's. That's real life. That actually happened. Yeah.
- [33:32]
Spike Lee
And my mother, I mean, before my father was working, she was going to Bloomerdale's on Lord and Taylor you know, every week. But my father said, I'm not doing that. I'm not playing electric bass. My mother had to work, you know, and I. And I saw. I was feeling. As the eldest of five, I was feeling a certain way about my father because my mother was working, had to cook and clean. And including myself, my siblings, we were crazy. I mean, we would. When relatives knew that them bad leaves are coming over, they were like, oh, boy, I hope they don't eat up all our food and tear our house up.
- [34:08]
Tonya Moseley
That was a real possibility, huh?
- [34:10]
Spike Lee
Oh, it happened. Yeah, it happened. So I felt the way about my father, but then I understood that he's a purist. And my mother supported him, loved him. And so she. She had to work, cook and clean. You know, she can do that. And hopefully, God willing, you know, my father get a break and the world will see the great musician he was. And later on, my mother died. You know, he scored my films, my student films. NYU Grada Film School. And then she used to have it. Mobella Blues, do the Right Thing, and.
- [34:45]
Tonya Moseley
The Jungle Fever, you know, Spike. This is a real treat for me.
- [34:49]
Spike Lee
To talk to you, because the treat is mine. It's mutual, my sister.
- [34:52]
Tonya Moseley
Oh, well, I'm happy about that. I think your films are part of, like, my self conception, my understanding of who I am and the role that I play in this world.
- [35:03]
Spike Lee
What's the first film you saw mine? Did you have it?
- [35:08]
Tonya Moseley
No. Cause I was too young for that. But I saw that later. But the one that really sits with me the most is Malcolm X. And I'll tell you why. Because I grew up in Detroit.
- [35:18]
Spike Lee
Detroit.
- [35:19]
Tonya Moseley
I grew up in Detroit, Detroit public schools. The day that your film came out, they allowed kids to leave school to go see it. And a teacher of mine had us all get on a bus. And we arrived, got on the bus. We all got on the bus together.
- [35:33]
Spike Lee
I made a move too.
- [35:35]
Tonya Moseley
And we arrived at the theater and there were lots of other schools there. And there is this moment at the end of the film that I want to play. It is where there are kids in classrooms in the United States and then on the continent of Africa, soweto. Yes. On May 19, that they designate Malcolm X Day. And each student stands up and says, I am Malcolm X. Let's listen to it.
- [36:07]
Spike Lee
May 19th, we celebrate Malcolm X's birthday.
- [36:10]
Tonya Moseley
Because he was a great, great Afro American. Malcolm X is you, all of you.
- [36:17]
Spike Lee
And you are Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X.
- [36:24]
Tonya Moseley
I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X. I.
- [36:26]
Spike Lee
Am Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X. As Brother Malcolm said, we declare our right on this earth to be a man, to be a human being, to be given the rights of a human being, to be respected as a human being in this society, on this earth, in this day which we intended to bring into existence by any means.
- [37:17]
Tonya Moseley
That was a clip from Spike Lee's 1992 film, right? Malcolm X. It makes me emotional to hear it today. But I'll tell you, that day, I saw it in the theater when that. By any means necessary. Everybody stood up in the theater. They were yelling, they were screaming.
- [37:36]
Spike Lee
They were doing the Fist, the Black Power Fist. What grade was this? My sister.
- [37:41]
Tonya Moseley
Ninth grade.
- [37:42]
Spike Lee
Ninth grade. So first year of high school. Let me tell you the story. I've seen a lot of people, a lot of great people. But to be in a room and direct the great Nelson Mandela for the end of the movie. And the reason why I chose that, because I read that Mr. Mandela, who was in prison for 27 years, I think.
- [38:09]
Tonya Moseley
Yes.
- [38:10]
Spike Lee
On Robben island, he said one of the things that kept him going was Autobiography of Malcolm X was told Alex Haley. And we're going over the script, which is a quote by Malcolm X. And he said, spike. Oh, no. He said, Mr. Lee, I cannot say by any means necessary. But I was. I had. First of all, I had the footage him saying this. I knew I could put that in there. But it wasn't until later on I understood that because he was going to run to be president of South Africa.
- [38:43]
Tonya Moseley
Mandela, yeah.
- [38:43]
Spike Lee
And Africanas would use that against him by means necessary. We're gonna kill you white folks. So he was very smart. I didn't protest. I said, it's okay. And. And also, one of those kids that says, I'm Malcolm X is John David Washington, Denzel.
- [39:05]
Tonya Moseley
Denzel Washington's son. He's a young. I have to go back and look.
- [39:09]
Spike Lee
At it later on, start my film. Blackkklansman.
- [39:12]
Tonya Moseley
Yes. How did that idea come about to have the kids stand up and declare that?
- [39:18]
Spike Lee
That classroom scene, it's a homage to Spartacus. But also it worked also to show that we could do it then. And then the thing is that that sequence where kids stand up in School start pseudo, but then it goes to Harlem. So I wanted to show the bond between African Americans and our brothers, brothers and sisters who were still.
- [39:46]
Tonya Moseley
It's a powerful show that in the motherland, that we are diaspora.
- [39:49]
Spike Lee
Yes. And also apartheid was still in place.
- [39:53]
Tonya Moseley
Going back though, to that time period. You were sort of, like, responding to the media. You were responding to them, responding to your work and the thoughts that this work would spark something within black America.
- [40:06]
Spike Lee
But something shifted that there'll be uprising.
- [40:08]
Tonya Moseley
Right. And so there was a response that you were giving to the media during that time that I just really remember feeling so strong. And then something happened with you. Then you became like the person we see today, like, so jovial and so open.
- [40:24]
Spike Lee
Well, I was like that from the beginning. When you're talking about the way I was portrayed, which was not now who I was. But I cannot stand silent and say that. I mean, for example, that this film was. Caused black folks to riot. I'm talking specifically about do the Right Thing. And that film got two nominations. Daniello for Sal and also Denzel Wash for Glory. When I saw Glory and that scene was getting whipped and that lone tear went down his eye, I thought myself, danny, you ain't winning. This is not gonna happen. And then also we got. I mean, I got nominated for a screenplay. The film that won that year was Driver's Daisy. So that could tell you more than enough about the climate. Then also the people who voted and people were members of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.
- [41:31]
Tonya Moseley
Did you ever feel that way, though, like you were entitled to awards that you did not get, that you earned, awards that you did not get? And where do you sit on it? Because.
- [41:40]
Spike Lee
Well, I think that. I mean, there's footage of me being not happy the last time was with.
- [41:47]
Tonya Moseley
Black Klansman, which wasn't that long ago. I mean, that's.
- [41:50]
Spike Lee
What was the name of that film? Green Book. Green Book.
- [41:52]
Tonya Moseley
Oh, it. Okay. So it won.
- [41:54]
Spike Lee
So I said, man, every time somebody's driving somebody, I'm gonna lose driving Stacy and Green Book. And a funny thing, though, I was very upset, and I jumped out of. I missed footage of this at the Academy that night. I jumped out of my cr. Su cursing and my wife trying to have me sit down like this. Get off me. And you sit. Then Tanya, my wife, sent my son out there to get me. And so I calmed down.
- [42:28]
Tonya Moseley
If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Spike Lee. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH air. Stars, they're just like us, John Legend goes to cbs. Well, that's because he has his own skincare line.
- [42:42]
Spike Lee
It was so exciting to actually go into one of those stores. We had the end caps.
- [42:47]
Tonya Moseley
Were you like, I don't want this locked up? Judd Legend is one of many stars riding the celebrity branding wave. He tells us about it on the indicator from Planet Money. Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [43:00]
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- [43:48]
Tonya Moseley
A secret about the filmmakers who have inspired you over the years. I remember a few years ago you had an exhibit at the Academy Museum and like, all the folks were there. All of your heroes.
- [43:58]
Spike Lee
All of giants.
- [43:58]
Tonya Moseley
Yeah, all of your giants. For you, though, a few years ago, She's Gotta have It was remade. Not remade, reimagined.
- [44:07]
Spike Lee
That's the same thing happened with this film. People think Highest Low is not a remake of High and Low.
- [44:12]
Tonya Moseley
Right.
- [44:12]
Spike Lee
It was reinterpretation.
- [44:13]
Tonya Moseley
Yes. That interpretation was an interpretation for the 20s, you know, the 2000s. Now your she's Gotta have it was so subversive because it was 1986. 1986, about sexual liberation. A young woman who has the freedom to choose. I just wonder, like, as you move through time and you're experiencing your own work, other folks reimagining your story for a new time. Like, it's kind of like the beauty of storytelling.
- [44:43]
Spike Lee
But let me tell you this, though. It was only when I got into NYU graduate film school three year program that I really got introduced to world cinema. And the first Kurosawa film that I saw that wasn't a samurai film was Rashomon, which is a film about a murder and a rape and how these different characters each tell their version of the story. And that premise I use for She's Gonna have it. So this is not the first thing, you know, I'm getting down with my brother Kurosawa I got to meet, too.
- [45:14]
Tonya Moseley
When did you meet him?
- [45:16]
Spike Lee
It was when he was here in the States and at that time, Scorsese and Spielberg and Francis Ford were promoting, they produced the film. I forgot the name of the film. And one of my prized possessions, it was in the show at the Brooklyn Museum is a beautiful portrait that he signed for me. He did the autographs with the paintbrush. Oh, he does not ink. So it's white ink and gives me a beautiful people. You go to my Instagram official, Spike Lee, you see this portrait of him that Curacao assigned me with a paintbrush with white paint.
- [45:56]
Tonya Moseley
What a moment. And what a prized possession.
- [45:58]
Spike Lee
Yes.
- [45:59]
Tonya Moseley
Did he know and understand the impact that he had on you through your films? Did you guys?
- [46:03]
Spike Lee
Yeah, I told him.
- [46:04]
Tonya Moseley
You told him about it?
- [46:06]
Spike Lee
Yeah. A lot of times when you meet these giants and you know, after a while you're going, I'm going for an hour like Spike, all right, we get you. I influenced that. I'm glad I influenced your work. But I don't have an hour right here for you to tell me that.
- [46:19]
Tonya Moseley
Yeah, right, right. Spike Lee, thank you so much for this conversation.
- [46:23]
Spike Lee
It's been a pleasure.
- [46:25]
Tonya Moseley
Yes. Spike Lee's new film, highest to Lowest, is now playing in theaters. It will be available to stream on Apple TV starting September 5th. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, journalist Ruth Marcus joins us to talk about President Trump's combative Attorney General, Pam Bondi. In her latest piece for the New Yorker, Marcus describes how Bondi has upended the Justice Department, reversing policies and firing staff in what she calls the most convulsive transition of power since Watergate. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram prfreshair. You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page at. This is Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. Our consulting visual product producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Moseley. I'm Rachel Martin, host of Wildcard from NPR I've spent years interviewing all kinds of people and I've realized there are ideas that we all think about but don't talk about very much. So I made a shortcut, a deck of cards with questions that anyone can answer, questions that go deep into the experiences that shape us. Listen to the Wild Card podcast only from NPR.
- [48:15]
Spike Lee
On the next through line from NPR.
- [48:18]
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The man who saw a dangerous omission in the U.S. constitution and took it upon himself to fix it.
- [48:25]
Spike Lee
If something happened to a president who was still alive, the consequences for the country would have been enormous.
- [48:33]
Capital One Announcer
The 25th Amendment. Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast. Podcasts.
- [48:40]
Tonya Moseley
Short Wave thinks of science as an invisible force showing up in your everyday life, powering the food you eat, the medicine you use, the tech in your pocket. Science is approachable because it's already part of your life. Come explore these connections on the shortwave podcast from NPR.