Fresh Air: Stacey Abrams On American Autocracy & Her New Chapter
Release Date: July 15, 2025
Host: Tanya Moseley, NPR

Introduction

In the July 15, 2025 episode of NPR's Fresh Air, host Tanya Moseley engages in a profound conversation with Stacey Abrams, a renowned political strategist, voting rights advocate, and prolific author. Abrams discusses her latest novel, Coded Justice, delves into the alarming ten steps toward American autocracy, examines the current state of the Supreme Court, and reflects on her personal journey and continued commitment to democracy.

Stacey Abrams’ Literary Venture: Coded Justice

Abrams introduces her newest thriller, Coded Justice, the third installment in her Avery Keene series. The novel navigates the intricate world of artificial intelligence (AI) and its ethical implications.

[02:20] Stacey Abrams: "What I wanted was to write a book where the lines are blurred because sometimes there's good intention, just problematic execution. And I think AI is emblematic of that."

Key Insights:

• Neutrality of Technology: Abrams emphasizes that while AI is designed as a neutral tool, its application can lead to profound ethical dilemmas.
• Research-Driven Fiction: She underscores her commitment to thorough research to ensure authenticity, aiming to make her work credible to both laypersons and experts.

[14:58] Stacey Abrams: "I spend a lot of time doing deep dives. My mission is to sound smart enough about it in the book that the layperson believes me and the expert respects me."

Impact on Public Policy:

• Abrams connects her fictional work to real-world policy, highlighting how AI can be misused even with the best intentions, potentially leading to authoritarian outcomes.

The Ten Steps Toward Autocracy

A central theme in the episode is Abrams' poignant analysis of the ten steps leading to American autocracy, a framework inspired by Princeton Professor Ken Sheppel.

[02:20] Stacey Abrams: "Step one, you have a free and fair election, but likely it's the last one. That's how autocrats are born."

Detailed Breakdown:

1. Erosion of Elections: The initial free and fair elections become the final ones as the victor consolidates power.
2. Exceeding Executive Power: A surge in executive orders without accountability.
3. Weakening Competing Powers: Targeting Congress and the judiciary to eliminate checks and balances.
4. Gutting Government: Dismantling democratic institutions and undermining public trust.
5. Installing Loyalists: Appointing individuals loyal solely to the autocrat rather than the Constitution.
6. Attacking the Media: Discrediting the media to create an echo chamber of propaganda.
7. Scapegoating Minorities: Weaponizing diversity initiatives to marginalize protected communities.
8. Targeting Civil Society: Undermining organizations and individuals that defend rights.
9. Incentivizing Violence: Using military force to suppress dissent and civic participation.
10. Permanent Autocracy: Ensuring no one can challenge the autocrat through suppressed elections.

Recent Indicators: Abrams cites specific events that exemplify these steps, particularly highlighting the deployment of Marines in Los Angeles and the controversial arrest of Mayor Ross Baraka.

[06:14] Stacey Abrams: "The decision to deploy the Marines in Los Angeles... is a violation of every precept of democratic rule under a civilian leader."

Supreme Court and Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson

Abrams discusses the pivotal role of the Supreme Court in the current political climate, focusing on Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's impactful dissents.

[08:24] Stacey Abrams: "Justice Jackson is laying not just the groundwork for what we hope will be the resurgence of democracy and the rule of law, but she's also leaving breadcrumbs."

Key Points:

• Judicial Responsibility: Inspired by Thurgood Marshall, Jackson interprets laws with an ethical lens, ensuring they align with justice.
• Counteracting Autocracy: Her persistent dissents serve as a bulwark against the erosion of democratic principles.

[10:13] Tanya Moseley: "You talk about Justice Jackson... she's sort of waving the flag in the same way that you are talking about this."

Personal Journey and Influence

Abrams reflects on her evolution as a novelist and advocate, tracing her roots from Mississippi to her current roles.

[10:33] Stacey Abrams: "My first novel was published right after law school. But my parents will tell you I started writing a lot earlier."

Family and Upbringing:

• Genteel Poverty: Raised by parents who valued education and storytelling despite economic hardships.
• Parental Influence: Her father, a dyslexic shipyard worker who pursued higher education later in life, instilled in her a love for learning and resilience.

[11:29] Tanya Moseley: "What did she mean by genteel?"

[11:31] Stacey Abrams: "Economically, we were not capable... but our gentility was that we could still enjoy and be refined."

Collaborative Creativity:

• Abrams credits her siblings for their invaluable input in her writing process, enhancing the depth and realism of her characters.

[13:07] Tanya Moseley: "Do they help you write?"

[13:08] Stacey Abrams: "They're my resources. My sister Leslie was my editor... My oldest sister, Andrea, helped me think about social justice questions."

Voter Suppression and Democratic Integrity

A significant portion of the discussion centers on voter suppression, its modern manifestations, and Abrams' strategies to counteract these efforts through her organization, Fair Fight Action.

[25:03] Stacey Abrams: "Voter suppression happens in three ways. Can you register and stay on the rolls? Does the state allow you to cast your ballot? Does your vote get counted?"

Modern Tactics:

• Administrative Barriers: Restricting access through measures like eliminating mail-in voting for disabled individuals and removing student IDs as valid forms of identification.
• Historical Parallels: Contrasting contemporary suppression with overt actions from the 1960s, such as using guns and hoses.

[27:26] Stuart Moseley: "How should we be thinking about it?"

[25:03] Stacey Abrams: "The voter suppression of the 21st century often escapes recognition because it doesn't look like what we were used to."

Potential Political Future

Addressing rumors of a possible third gubernatorial run, Abrams clarifies her current focus and future considerations.

[22:38] Stacey Abrams: "Politics is a tool... but it's not the only one. My focus right now is on sharing information through my podcast, Assembly Required, and my substack, Assembly Notes."

Future Aspirations:

• While not ruling out future political endeavors, Abrams emphasizes her present commitment to education, advocacy, and empowering others.

[23:45] Stacey Abrams: "I truly have not made any decisions...[2026] requires the focus that I have."

Family and Faith

Abrams delves into how her family's values and faith have shaped her worldview and dedication to public service.

[29:17] Stacey Abrams: "When we were growing up, my parents said you had three jobs, go to church, go to school, take care of each other."

Faith and Education:

• Service-Oriented Beliefs: Her faith compels her to advocate for marginalized communities and oppose divisive ideologies.
• Critical Thinking: Encouraging an informed and contemplative approach to faith and societal issues.

[31:48] Tanya Moseley: "Your parents were also people of faith. They were ministers as well. And I just wonder how that factors into your worldview..."

[31:51] Stacey Abrams: "I cannot call myself a Christian and not believe that it is my responsibility to help the stranger, to help the immigrant, to help the dispossessed."

Addressing Controversies: New Georgia Project Investigation

Abrams responds to scrutiny surrounding the New Georgia Project's inadvertent campaign finance violations, reinforcing her commitment to institutional integrity.

[32:35] Tanya Moseley: "You founded this project... What is your response to that investigation?"

[33:00] Stacey Abrams: "I stood up an organization... They made choices after I left. They are responsible for the choices they made."

Key Responses:

• Infrastructure Over Leadership: Emphasizes building robust institutions that operate independently of personal leadership.
• Accountability: Acknowledges the organization's mistake but maintains that it does not reflect her direct actions or intentions.

[34:20] Tanya Moseley: "They were working on behalf of your campaign... Any lessons learned?"

[34:35] Stacey Abrams: "They admitted that they made a mistake. They have paid for that mistake... But my larger point is... stop democracy from working."

Balancing Authenticity and Public Perception

Abrams discusses the challenges of maintaining authenticity while navigating the performative aspects of public life.

[37:06] Stacey Abrams: "Part of what can sometimes seem performative is... taking public responsibility, because I don't think you can ask someone to trust you with their lives if they can't trust you with yours."

Maintaining Integrity:

• Transparency and Contemplation: Prioritizes thoughtful decision-making over immediate reactions to maintain the trust and integrity essential for effective leadership.
• Avoiding Mythology: Strives to present an authentic self, openly acknowledging mistakes and vulnerabilities.

[37:06] Stacey Abrams: "I try my best when that happens, to be honest with myself, to be honest with my teams, to be honest with the public."

Conclusion

The episode encapsulates Stacey Abrams' multifaceted role as an advocate, writer, and potential political leader. Through her insightful analysis of emerging threats to democracy, commitment to voter rights, and dedication to authentic leadership, Abrams presents a compelling vision for safeguarding and revitalizing American democratic institutions. Her literary work, particularly Coded Justice, serves as both a reflection and a critique of contemporary societal challenges, bridging fiction and policy in meaningful ways.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On Autocracy:

  [02:20] Stacey Abrams: "Step one, you have a free and fair election, but likely it's the last one. That's how autocrats are born."

• On AI in Coded Justice:

  [14:58] Stacey Abrams: "I spend a lot of time doing deep dives. My mission is to sound smart enough about it in the book that the layperson believes me and the expert respects me."

• On Justice Jackson:

  [08:24] Stacey Abrams: "Justice Jackson is laying not just the groundwork for what we hope will be the resurgence of democracy and the rule of law, but she's also leaving breadcrumbs."

• On Voter Suppression:

  [25:03] Stacey Abrams: "Voter suppression happens in three ways. Can you register and stay on the rolls? Does the state allow you to cast your ballot? Does your vote get counted?"

• On Family Influence:

  [29:17] Stacey Abrams: "I cannot call myself a Christian and not believe that it is my responsibility to help the stranger, to help the immigrant, to help the dispossessed."

• On Authenticity:

  [37:06] Stacey Abrams: "Part of what can sometimes seem performative is... taking public responsibility, because I don't think you can ask someone to trust you with their lives if they can't trust you with yours."

Final Thoughts

Stacey Abrams' discussion on Fresh Air offers listeners a deep dive into the intersecting realms of politics, literature, and social advocacy. Her articulate examination of autocracy's incremental rise, combined with her literary endeavors, underscores the critical role of informed, authentic leadership in preserving democratic values. Whether through her novels or her activism, Abrams continues to inspire and educate, urging collective action to uphold the democratic principles that sustain society.