Star Of ‘Pluribus’ Rhea Seehorn

Summary

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Fresh Air: Star of ‘Pluribus’ Rhea Seehorn

Original Air Date: December 9, 2025
Host: Terry Gross
Guest: Rhea Seehorn

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Episode Overview

This episode of Fresh Air features an in-depth conversation between host Terry Gross and actor Rhea Seehorn, star of the acclaimed Apple TV series Pluribus. The discussion delves into the show’s provocative sci-fi premise and the profound philosophical questions it raises about happiness, individuality, conformity, and the role of emotions—especially anger. Seehorn shares insights into her character Carol, her own life experiences, her career trajectory, and personal reflections on family, identity, and acting. The latter part of the episode revisits Seehorn’s past work on Better Call Saul and recounts the dramatic on-set incident when co-star Bob Odenkirk suffered a heart attack. The tone throughout is candid, thoughtful, and frequently laced with Seehorn’s characteristic humility and humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Premise and Themes of Pluribus

• Sci-fi roots with philosophical questions: Pluribus, created by Vince Gilligan and starring Rhea Seehorn, explores what happens when an extraterrestrial technology transforms humanity—connecting everyone through a psychic network that allegedly eliminates unhappiness and conflict, but at the cost of individual thought.
• Carol’s journey: Seehorn plays Carol, a best-selling romance novelist who resists this collective consciousness after her partner dies in the incident that triggers the transformation.
• Happiness vs. Meaning and Individuality ([03:09])
  • Terry Gross: “Is it happiness if there’s no longer a larger meaning to your life? And is being an individual with your own temperament and thoughts... more valuable than this happiness?”
  • Carol’s skepticism drives the show’s core conflict.

Happiness, Groupthink, and the Value of Surprise

• Seehorn’s thoughts: ([04:03])
  • She describes cast and crew conversations about individuality vs. the collective good.
  • Quote (Rhea Seehorn): “A big thing that came up for me was the fact that this group think... If you cannot be surprised, there’s never going to be any new art... That’s just such a source of joy for me that I just can’t imagine that contentment is the same as happiness.” ([05:07])
• The series provokes viewers to rethink what constitutes authentic happiness and the creative power of surprise or disruption.

Anger—Destructive, Necessary, or Both?

• Character contrast: ([06:20])
  • Carol is “angry all the time,” a stark contrast to Seehorn’s iconic Kim Wexler, who carefully suppresses anger.
• On the necessity of anger: ([07:26])
  • Seehorn: “It is a necessary emotion, which I think is one of the arguments in the show that I side with... all of the emotions are important, not just happiness.”
• Gender, anger, and socialization: ([08:14])
  • Seehorn: “I have grown up in a world that... I was taught that anger was unpalatable, specifically from females, and that I should find a way to make it palatable...”
  • Recounts family arguments and pressure to “make requests palatable” instead of expressing direct anger.
  • Discusses personal toll: “It got to a place... where I’m nodding and just saying yes... and I go home and break out in eczema.” ([09:46])
• Acting as catharsis?:
  • Gross: “Does anger expressed as an actor become a great release valve...?”
  • Seehorn: “It didn't feel... therapeutic... But... it was fun as an actor, to have this extreme obstacle... She does care about not killing millions of people. So how does she express herself now?” ([11:13])
  • Both agree that finding non-destructive ways to communicate anger is a valuable lesson.

Pluribus, E Pluribus Unum, and Social Commentary

• Terry Gross links show to current events: ([12:55])
  • Notes that in an era where DEI (diversity, equity, and inclusion) is under fire, the show’s psychic conformity is “the opposite of DEI.”
• Seehorn’s perspective: ([13:47])
  • “Or you could argue that it’s the ultimate in all inclusion and everybody has equal everything.”
  • They riff on artificial intelligence and loss of individuality.
  • Memorable moment: ([14:21])
    • Seehorn jokes about the new pope’s reported favorite motto being “E pluribus unum”: “I really appreciate him advertising the show.”

Stepping Into Romance Novel Land

• Carol’s background as a romance novelist: ([14:45])
  • Seehorn prepped for her role by visiting “The Ripped Bodice,” a romance bookstore.
  • Marvels at the diversity of subgenres and the varied fanbase: “There was a lot of people dressed like early Stevie Nicks in a beautiful way... But then there was... a couple that looked like they came straight from a corporate job...” ([16:37])

The Role Was Written for Her

• Transition from male protagonist to Seehorn: ([17:06])
  • Vince Gilligan originally envisioned Carol as a man, reconnecting his creative process after seeing Seehorn work on Better Call Saul.
  • Seehorn on Gilligan: “He realized, like, I have to write something for her... These concepts I’m noodling with, wouldn’t they work even better if they were her?... I’m floored by the compliment and the flattery, to put it mildly.” ([18:55])
  • The creation of Carol became a custom fit to Seehorn’s strengths as an actor.

Better Call Saul, On-Set Crisis, and Bob Odenkirk’s Heart Attack

• Scene lead-up: ([23:26])
  Excerpt from the episode featuring a tense exchange between characters (with Tony Dalton and Seehorn’s Kim), culminating shortly before Odenkirk’s collapse.
• Vivid recounting of the incident: ([25:38])
  • Seehorn describes the day: “We were shooting the scene for maybe about 10 hours... Bob was watching a Cubs game and chatting... he got off the bike and looked like he was gonna faint. So we ran to catch him... It looked like either seizure, a stroke or cardiac arrest...”
  • Describes waiting for medics, use of the defibrillator, and the emotional toll: “We wouldn't let go of him either. They just kept having to tell us... you can't be holding on to him while he's being electrocuted.”
• On memory loss: ([28:16])
  • Odenkirk has no recollection of the day or scene: “It is like I am watching an imposter in my body do a scene that I have never done in my entire life.”

Rhea Seehorn’s Early Life and Formative Years

• Changing her name: ([30:33])
  • Born Deborah Ray Seehorn, went by “Debbie” but felt it didn’t fit. At age 12-13, switched to Ray (Rhea).
  • Seehorn: “I had a sort of disconnect feeling with the name... Kids started yelling at me, ‘Hey, fat Debbie, do you want some more Little Debbie's?’... I think I just need a fresh start.”
• Family background: ([32:01])
  • Father was a Naval Intelligence counterintelligence agent (now NCIS), worked on the infamous Walker spy family case in the 1980s.
  • Her father’s job was mysterious and secretive, marked by frequent moves and sometimes secrecy at home.
  • Favorite family phrase: ([34:42])
    • “My dad’s favorite answer to everything was, ‘What are you, writing a book?’... And I thought I was so brilliant... and he said, ‘Well, then leave this chapter out.’”
• On her father’s alcoholism: ([35:00])
  • Seen as “the life of the party,” but self-medication led to disease. Laments the lack of therapy or support for service members at the time.

From Painting to Acting

• Initial ambitions: ([36:34])
  • Planned a career in the visual arts but was always captivated by TV and film.
  • Discovered acting in a college class; found joy in the discipline and study required. Loved analyzing “the behavior of humans and the whys.”
  • “If you work really hard and study, you can incrementally get closer and closer to being good at this and hopefully one day great at this. And that was the best news ever to me...” ([37:12])
  • On why acting stuck: “[It’s] not about being famous. I knew that I had to be an actor and I’d support myself however I had to.” ([39:10])

Closing

• Warm send-off: ([39:10–39:20])
  • Gross: “I really enjoyed this interview. I really like Pluribus.”
  • Seehorn: “This is a dream come true being here.”

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Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• “I just can’t imagine that contentment is the same as happiness.”
  – Rhea Seehorn ([05:12])
• “It didn’t feel... therapeutic... But... it was fun as an actor, to have this extreme obstacle...”
  – Rhea Seehorn on acting out anger ([11:13])
• “You could argue that it’s the ultimate in all inclusion and everybody has equal everything.”
  – Rhea Seehorn on pluralism and conformity ([13:47])
• On Vince Gilligan:
  “He realized, like, I have to write something for her... wouldn’t they work even better if they were her?” – Rhea Seehorn ([18:55])
• On her father's secrecy:
  “My dad’s favorite answer to everything was, ‘What are you, writing a book?’ ... ‘Well, then leave this chapter out.’” – Rhea Seehorn ([34:42])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Intro & Setup: [00:17–03:06]
• Themes of Pluribus, Individuality vs. Collective: [03:09–05:27]
• Anger & Gender, Personal Reflection: [06:20–10:08]
• Performance, Suppression vs. Expression: [10:36–12:55]
• Conformity, DEI, Social Satire: [12:55–14:21]
• Romance Novelist Research: [15:13–16:55]
• Carol Written for Seehorn: [17:06–19:50]
• Scene from Better Call Saul: [23:26–25:25]
• Bob Odenkirk’s Heart Attack: [25:38–28:54]
• Discussing Name/Identity: [30:33–31:46]
• Father’s Spy Work & Alcoholism: [32:01–36:30]
• Choosing Acting, Early Training: [36:43–39:10]
• Outro: [39:10–39:20]

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Memorable Moments

• Rhea Seehorn’s humility in discussing why Vince Gilligan wrote Pluribus for her (“The title of this episode can be: Rhea Seehorn brags about herself... my face is one giant tomato red ball” [19:33]).
• The nerve-wracking, almost surreal retelling of Bob Odenkirk’s heart attack and the crew’s urgent response.
• Candid childhood anecdotes—name changes, family dynamics, moving for spy cases—rooting Seehorn’s work in her real-life complexity.

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Takeaways

This interview is a wide-ranging, intimate, and deeply humanizing look at Rhea Seehorn’s creative process, life experiences, and her compelling new role in Pluribus. Listeners come away with a richer understanding of how thoughtful science fiction can reflect real-world anxieties, the ongoing challenge of expressing emotions authentically (especially as a woman), and how artistry draws from personal history and vulnerability.

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Transcript

[Announcer]

This message comes from Carvana. Buy a car 100% [e-mail] with financing to fit your budget. Enjoy seven days to return. If it's not a fit, limitations and exclusions may apply. See return [e-mail] this is FRESH AIR.

[Terry Gross]

I'm Terry Gross. One of the most talked about TV series now is the Apple TV series Pluribus. Created by Vince Gilligan. It stars my guest Ray Seehorn. You may know her as the co star of Better Call Saul or which was both a prequel and sequel to Breaking Bad. Seehorn and Pluribus were just each nominated for a Golden Globe. In Pluribus, Seehorn plays Carol, a writer of best selling romance novels. Her life partner, Helen, is her manager. One night, Carol and Helen are leaving a bar when Helen has a seizure and dies. Suddenly, everyone around Carol in the bar and in the ER are frozen in place or have fallen down in having a seizure. And then most of them get up and seem changed. They're talking and walking in unison. Their faces are somewhere between happy and hypnotized. What's going on back home when Carol turns on the TV looking for a new show that might explain all the channels are blank except C Span. A man on that channel is at a White House podium talking directly to Carol by name. He gives her a phone number to call for more information. She calls and the man she saw on the TV is the one talking to her. He apologizes for Helen's death. Millions of others have died, including the President. He explains that everyone now has the benefits of an extraterrestrial technology. Through pulsing signals that were sent, everyone around the world is now held together by a psychic glue. Here's part of that scene.

[Tony Dalton]

Rest assured, Carol, we will figure out.

[Tony Dalton (alternate lines)]

What makes you different.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Figure it out? Why?

[Tony Dalton (alternate lines)]

So we can fix it. So you can join us.

[Tony Dalton]

Carol, you still there?

[Rhea Seehorn]

You said my life was my own. It is 100%.

So what happens when I say no.

[Tony Dalton]

Carol, once you understand how wonderful this is?

[Tony Dalton (alternate lines)]

Carol?

[Terry Gross]

As time goes by, Carol learns that everyone has access to everyone else's memories and knowledge. Everyone is happy and there's peace around the world. And except for Carol and a few others, she isn't buying that these transformations are a good thing. And she does everything she can to resist. Rhea Seehorn, welcome to FRESH air. I love this series. I loved you'd on Better Call Saul. It's really such a pleasure to have you on the show.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Oh my gosh. Thank you. It is such a pleasure to be here.

[Terry Gross]

Thank you. The premise of this series is sci fi, but. But the show itself is asking so many questions about human nature. Like, what is happiness? Is it happiness if there's no longer a larger meaning to your life? And is being an individual with your own temperament and thoughts, is that more valuable than this happiness? And is anger lethal? Or is it good to let out your anger and resist what you think is wrong? And, you know, maybe we'll find out some answers to those questions and many other questions later, but I just want people to know it's. There's some really interesting thoughts in this.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Thank you.

[Terry Gross]

And did you find yourself asking what is happiness as you made the series?

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yeah, I definitely was asking myself a lot of those questions throughout this series. And we had amazing conversations among the crew and the cast. You know, some of these late night shoots and even on weekends stuff of like, well, would you choose what's best for the individual versus what's best for the community as a whole? I personally think I would absolutely be Team Carol as far as.

Arguing, you know, the necessity and the positives of individual thinking and independent thinking. For one thing, a big thing that came up for me was the fact that this group think, no matter how intelligent and how peaceful, one of the ideas of happiness and joy, which maybe is slightly different, is being surprised by things, whether it's wonder growing up as a kid and hopefully still as an adult, or a giant belly laugh. And if you cannot be surprised.

There'S never going to be any new art. There's never going to be.

A joke that you haven't heard. There's never going to be surprise behavior that makes you laugh, and that's just such a source of joy for me that I just can't imagine that contentment is the same as happiness.

[Terry Gross]

One of the other characteristics of your character in Pluribus is that she is angry a lot of the time. She already had a kind of anger issue, but now that she's one of like 12 or 13 people in the whole world who haven't been affected by this whatever it is, this alien technology, she's angry all the time. You know, her wife died as this thing started as a result of this thing, and she has no one she can really confide in because everybody is transformed.

And she knows that. She believes there's something really terrible behind this, so. So she's angry all the time. Your character on Better Call Saul had her own anger issues, and you're really good at expressing anger.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Kim Wexler was an incredibly capable person at suppressing it, whereas I do not think Carol is. But, yeah, I guess she did have anger, a certain righteousness about her.

[Terry Gross]

So we talked about how the series has affected you, thinking about happiness. What about anger? Because anger can be really destructive. And in the series, in Pluribus, when she gets angry, people die. Like, anger is literally poison, a killing poison. But in real life, sometimes it's important to get angry because first of all, you just need to express yourself. But second of all, somebody needs to know that you really offended or hurt or. Or think that something is morally or ethically wrong. And sometimes it takes anger to really get the point across. Did you find yourself thinking about anger a lot and your levels of anger? I have no idea. If you like to express anger?

[Rhea Seehorn]

No, I struggle mightily with.

How much I suppress my anger.

And as you said, there's this idea of anger can be, you know, a miasma almost that, like, can spread. And we've all seen, like, horrible things can happen when you just are riling people up with, you know, frothing at the mouth with.

Anger about things and negativity.

But at the same time, it is a necessary emotion, which I think is one of the arguments in the show that I side with of the idea that all of the emotions are important, not just happiness.

But I had asked Vincent. He wasn't coming at it from an angle of particularly a woman being angry, but because I'm a woman playing the role that.

I paused a lot thinking about that, because I do think that I have grown up in a world that.

Maybe, maybe it's on me. But it felt as though I was taught that anger was unpalatable, specifically from females, and that I should find a way to make it palatable, make my requests palatable.

And. And not express a lot of anger. When I was much younger, I would scream it as a teenager. You know, screaming, yelling, like the typical arguments you have over hairspray and idiotic things at home as a teenager. But plus, it was. My parents were divorced, and so it was a household of three women, my mom and my sister and I. So there were actually a lot of hairspray arguments. But, you know, you kind of grow out of this complete temperamental, just, I'm going to spew anything I want coming out of my mouth and you get out into the real world. And.

It did feel like.

And it's interesting you ask because I haven't pinned down, like, was it something I saw was, you know, in real life or something on a television show or what? Where was I getting this messaging that that it wasn't okay to raise my voice, to be very, very sharp.

I'm not. I'm not sure of the answer of that, but I know that it got to a place where it went too far, literally, to the place of, like, I'm nodding and just saying yes or whatever to somebody that's maybe speaking to me in a way that I absolutely disagree with. And I go home and break out in eczema. And that's not an exaggeration.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, gosh. Yeah, yeah.

[Rhea Seehorn]

So I'm just like, clearly the anger is going somewhere. I don't think it's okay to scream and yell in someone's face, but I think I have become conflict avoidant in the suppression of that anger to a degree that's not healthy. I will stand up for somebody else, though, in a heartbeat. If somebody else is being mistreated next to me, I'm in there. I'll take you to the mat. But if it's at me, I tend to swallow it and try to figure out how I can make it better.

[Terry Gross]

In terms of.

Absorbing the message that women shouldn't display anger. No one needed to tell you that. It's all over the culture. It's in movies and tv. Those expectations don't need to be spoken. They've been passed on for centuries. But does anger expressed as an actor become a great release valve for someone like you who has suppressed anger for many years?

[Rhea Seehorn]

It didn't feel.

To be completely honest, it didn't feel like therapeutic, like, oh, thank God, I have a place to release all of my anger now. But.

Instead, for me, I would take Carol's moments of sort of explosive anger. And I feel like prior to this event happening.

She probably had anger issues, but she didn't explode a lot because Helen, her partner, was this complete buffer. But now in this after event, I feel like if that's taken away from Carol and it becomes. And that was fun as an actor, to have this extreme obstacle to somebody that does just unleash rage is extremely reactive, extremely.

Impulsive. No problem raising her voice, really doesn't care what anybody thinks anymore. What's the point? But then to take that, she. To take that and give yourself as an actor, this massive obstacle that she does care about, not killing millions of people. So this whole tool is going to be taken away from her. So how does she express herself now? How do you relay your feelings in a way that the world is deeming safe? And as we just talked about, like, sure, the negative viewpoint of that is like the suppression of anger, but the Positive thing was kind of like, yeah, but there's something to be learned from having to find a way to communicate your feelings and your boundaries without screaming and yelling in someone's face and character assassination, you know, so there's something we need to learn from that, too.

[Terry Gross]

I want to point out something else that I think is very relevant to today in the series. The series is called Pluribus, which is. Which translates to out of many one. And in this era where diversity, equity and inclusion is basically being outlawed to the extent that they can by the Trump administration.

E Pluribus unum has always been one of the founding principles, or slogans, if you want to call it that, of the United States. So this kind of conformity is really the opposite of dei because there's no diversity and equity. There's no diversity, so there's no need for equity and inclusion because everybody has the same thoughts.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Or you could argue that it's the ultimate in all inclusion and everybody has equal everything.

[Terry Gross]

That's true. That's true. But that's by erasing their religion, their ethnicity, their geography.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Or you could say they are all religions and they are all geographies.

[Terry Gross]

Right. And you could also say they're all artificial intelligence, because that's also how they sound. They're not. When they're speaking. They're not, but when they speak, it sometimes sounds like the verbal artificial intelligence talking to you.

[Rhea Seehorn]

I also really appreciated that our new pope, that his favorite motto apparently is E Pluribus unum. So I really appreciate him advertising the show.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, yeah. I thought you were gonna tell me he was a fan and I thought, really, he has time.

[Rhea Seehorn]

No, no, he just says that that came out that that was one of his favorite mottos, I guess. And I was like. We were just laughing. Thanks. Thanks for the shout out.

[Terry Gross]

So your character starts off as a famous romance novelist with this ardent following, and she goes to a bookstore and does a reading there, which everybody loves.

And it's a romance novel aboard a ship with a pirate. Anyways, the language is full of really typical romance book language.

So did you do research and go to readings of romance novelists?

[Rhea Seehorn]

I did. I went to the Ripped Bodice, which is an amazing romance novel store that only does romance novels in Culver City and just slipped in and looked around. I have to tell you, one of the first things that struck me is the amount of subgenres and the specificity of these subgenres. It's historical, paranormal, it could be romance, suspense. Then within that, there were sub. Sub genres of Ones that people that want them to be more dialogue, more chatty versus more descriptive. More descriptive. Descriptive, yeah. And certainly, you know, there's LGBTQIA stuff. There's stuff that people really want to sound, period. There's stuff that people want to sound futuristic versus very contemporary slang language. It was kind of incredible. But I also watched a couple of people do readings from their books, and I was really surprised at the breadth of people, of fans listening. There was a lot of people dressed like early Stevie Nicks in a beautiful way.

But then there was also, like, you know, just there was some couple that looked like they came straight from a corporate job. A man and a woman in office suits.

Young people. People younger than me. People older than me.

It definitely wizened me to how huge this genre is and how much it encapsulates all the different novels it has.

[Terry Gross]

So the character in Pluribus was originally written for a man by Vince Gilligan, and then he decided to rewrite it for you. How did that happen?

[Rhea Seehorn]

I don't believe there were scripts with the male character. And then he went back and rewrote. I think he said he was.

[Terry Gross]

Conceiving.

[Rhea Seehorn]

It for a while, kind of kicking around. Yeah, conceiving quite a few concepts he was interested in. I think he said that. And it was during Better Call Saul in season one, I think he said, taking breaks from the writers room and walking around on lunch breaks and stuff and just started. It's just how he works. He just. Ideas will pop in his head sometimes, questions without answers. And one of them was, what would happen if you woke up? And the whole world was obsequious. The whole world was willing to do whatever you wanted to and give you anything you want. And it was a male character. And he has said that it's just because that's second nature to him, that he is a man and he has written male protagonists. And then I don't know the exact shift that happened or where, but I didn't know about it until after we had wrapped all of Better Call Saul. But he said it was during, I think, towards the end of season one of Better Call Saul, that he was just watching me work and had talked to me a lot about the way I work, as well as watching me perform, and decided that I'm stuttering. Because it's hard to say this, because I'm floored by the compliment and the flattery, to put it mildly, and struggle saying it about myself. But he said that.

He realized, like, I have to write something for her. I need to make sure that I do a project with her. And actually wouldn't these concepts that I'm noodling with, wouldn't they work even better if they were her? And he knew that. He also wanted to play with tone and take wild swings as far as, like, it could be darkly comedic or it could be darkly psychological. Sometimes it's gonna, you know, go between back and forth. And he was impressed at my ability to do those things. So hard for me to say about myself.

That can be the title of this episode. Rhea Seehorn brags about herself. Yeah, I don't know. Listen, I've had to sit next to him in interviews when he's saying it, and I'm just my face is one giant tomato red ball when he's saying it. But I'm certainly very thankful for it.

[Terry Gross]

My guest is Rhea Seehorn, star of the new Apple TV series Pluribus. We'll be back after a short break. Terrence I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.

[Announcer]

If you're a super fan of Fresh Air with Terry Gross, we have exciting news. WHYY has launched a Fresh Air Society, a leadership group dedicated to ensuring Fresh Air's legacy. For over 50 years, this program has brought you fascinating interviews with favorite authors, artists, actors and more. As a member of the Fresh Air Society, you'll receive special benefits and recognition. Learn [e-mail].

[Rhea Seehorn]

This message comes from @&t. America's First Network is also its fastest and most Reliable based on RootMetrics United States Root Score Report 1H 2025 tested with best commercially available smartphones on three national mobile networks across all available network types. Your experiences may vary. RootMetrics rankings are not an endorsement of AT&T. When you compare, there's no comparison. AT&T.

[Announcer]

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[Rhea Seehorn]

When it comes to my athletic performance, sleep is everything.

[Announcer]

It is the most important factor in getting the most out of my training.

[Rhea Seehorn]

And being ready to race as fast as possible possible.

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[Rhea Seehorn]

Hi, this is Molly Sivi Nesberg, digital producer at Fresh Air.

[Terry Gross]

And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter, and I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly picks, timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read.

[Rhea Seehorn]

It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week.

[Terry Gross]

An exclusive, so [e-mail] fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. Let's get back to my interview with Rhea Seehorn. She was just nominated for a Golden Globe for her role in the new Apple TV series Pluribus, which was also nominated. The series was created for Seehorn by Vince Gilligan. Seehorn also co starred in Better Call Saul, which was created by Gilligan and Peter Gould. That series was a sequel and prequel to Gilligan's series Breaking Bad. In Better Call Saul, Seehorn played Kim Wexler, a lawyer who marries Jimmy McGill, an unethical lawyer who gets involved with a Mexican cartel, played by Bob Odenkirk. The series lasted six seasons, and while shooting an episode in that final season, Bob Odenkirk suffered a heart attack and collapsed on set. He had just completed shooting an intense scene with Seehorn that we're about to hear an excerpt of. It's the scene in which Lalo, a cartel member, had just killed a colleague of Jimmy and Kim's, Howard Hamlin, played by Patrick Fabian, and the murder was in Jimmy and Kim's apartment right in front of their eyes. They're frozen in fear as Lalo then instructs Jimmy to go to the home of drug czar Gus Fring and kill him while Kim waits behind with Lalo. Jimmy insists that Kim be the one to go because he thinks it might be even more dangerous for Kim to stay with Lalo. Here's the scene. Tony Dalton, as Lalo, speaks first.

[Tony Dalton]

I know, I know you're a lawyer and not a killer, but look, you can do this, okay? This guy, he's a house cat. Black, medium height, short hair, glasses. He kind of looks like a librarian, but don't be fooled. Even a house cat can scratch. So that's it. Hard part's over. Now you pull out the camera. Same principle as the gun. Point and shoot. Take a picture, one where I can see the face clearly, and then you bring it back here where me and Mrs. Goodman will be waiting for you. And then you're done.

[Rhea Seehorn]

I'd say it's about a 20 minute.

[Tony Dalton]

Drive over there, 20 minutes back, maybe 10 minutes to do the job. Let's call it an hour altogether. So you're back here in an hour. Or send her what she should do it.

[Rhea Seehorn]

To Me?

[Tony Dalton]

Why her? Don't do this.

[Tony Dalton (alternate lines)]

This guy, the house cat.

[Tony Dalton]

He looks.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Through his peephole in the middle of the night and he sees me.

[Tony Dalton]

Who's this asshole?

[Rhea Seehorn]

What's he doing here?

[Tony Dalton]

Maybe he gets his gun, maybe he calls the cops. Either way, that door stays shut.

[Rhea Seehorn]

But he sees a woman. She looks like she's in distress. Maybe her car broke down. I mean, you'd open the door for her, wouldn't you?

[Terry Gross]

Stop.

[Tony Dalton]

Stop. Yeah, but she's really clever. How do I know she's gonna stick to the plan?

[Tony Dalton (alternate lines)]

She will.

[Rhea Seehorn]

No, no, no, no.

[Tony Dalton]

No cops. You know she will.

[Rhea Seehorn]

No. Look, this doesn't even make any sense. I. I've. I've never shot a gun before. I've never even held one like. I have Jimmy. What are you doing?

[Tony Dalton]

You know, she's the best choice.

[Rhea Seehorn]

No, I'm not. I can't. I can't do it. She can do it. You know, she can be. Stop. Just stop. Listen. Stop it. Oh, God.

[Tony Dalton]

Okay, fine.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. Her. That was a scene from Better Call Saul, right before the star, Bob Odenkirk, had his heart attack. Were you on set with him when this happened?

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yes. So Jimmy and I. Bob and I are now being held captive on the couch. And we had just done our side of it. We were getting ready to turn around, which is the cameras, the lights, the props, everything are gonna. Crew is now gonna move to the other side of the room so they can turn the camera around on Tony Dalton playing Lalo. Cause we were on opposite sides of the room, and we had been shooting the scene for maybe about 10 hours. And they tell actors when it's a big turnaround, meaning there's enough time to go to your trailer. Because this is a lot of equipment that's gotta be moved. It's not a quick thing. But we didn't go to our trailers, which is another. Like, thank God he didn't. If Bob had gone to his trailer and just passed out, which is what happened when this heart attack happened, he would have been dead by the time they knocked on the door, and that would be that. No one would have even known. He would have just passed out. So we went down to that end, and Bob was watching a Cubs game and chatting with us.

Also on his exercise bike, which he would do to stay just kind of alert instead of getting sleepy after hours and hours of shooting, which did not cause a heart attack. I have to say that his rebound from his heart attack was because he was in the best shape of his life from training for his film nobody. But he and Patrick and I are just laughing and goofing off. And then Bob got off the bike and looked like he was gonna faint. So we ran to catch him so his head wouldn't hit the concrete floor. And then we realized, oh, this looks like either seizure, a stroke or cardiac arrest, all of which we need medical attention. And so we started screaming for help. And it took a beat, a horrifying, terrifying beat. And eventually a set medic was there, a different set medic that had just started. Then Rosa Estrada came over and, and it turned out that they couldn't get his heart to start and they needed a defibrillator. And Rosa ran to her car and got it and they brought it back and they were able to revive him. And then, and then the ambulance came. But yeah, Patrick and I were.

We wouldn't let go of him either. They just kept having to tell us, like, yeah, you can't be holding on to him while he's being electrocuted. But that was, it was very hard to let go of your friend for a second in that moment.

[Terry Gross]

I'm glad you have such vivid memories of this. Cause like when I interviewed Bob Odenkirk, he had no memory of it.

[Rhea Seehorn]

He has none. He has none. When we went back to shoot that scene, we had to finish that shoot months later. And Bob has no memory of the entire day, not just the event, but the entire day. And they showed him footage so that he would know where he was sitting. And I go, I said, I mean, we shot this for 10 hours. We also rehearsed it for a week and a half, drilling it. And it's this very emotional tense scene. I said, remember now, do you remember that day? Cause we were shooting this whole day and he looks at me laughing and he said, it is like I am watching an imposter in my body do a scene that I have never done in my entire life.

[Terry Gross]

I was like, what a strange feeling that must have been.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Isn't that crazy? It's just like, yeah, he has no memory of it at all. We had to tell him multiple times after he woke up in the hospital.

[Terry Gross]

If you're just joining us, my guest is Rhea Seehorn. She stars in the Apple TV series Pluribus, which was created by the co creator of Better Call Saul and the creator of Breaking Bad, Vince Gilligan. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH air.

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[Terry Gross]

Hey.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Hey, it's Brittany Luce from It's been a minute. Your voicemail box is full. Okay, I'll admit it, so is mine. So I'm leaving this for you here. I wanted to say thank you for supporting NPR this year. And if you haven't given yet, it's not too late. Give me a call back when you can visit donate.NPR.org this holiday season, give.

[Announcer]

A gift that gives back. The NPR shop is back with the iconic logo tee, the tiny desk hoodie, and fresh gear for fans of public media. What you wear funds what you hear. Shop meaningful gifts [e-mail] so I want.

[Terry Gross]

To talk about your formative years. And I know that you are officially named Debbie, but at some point in your life, you, you felt like, I'm not a Debbie. So I'd like to know how old you were when you came to that realization. And what being a Debbie translated to you, what did that mean to you?

[Rhea Seehorn]

I think I was 12, 12 or 13. And it's Deborah Ray Seehorn, and.

[Terry Gross]

Oh, I see. So Ray was your middle name?

[Rhea Seehorn]

Ray was my middle name.

And it was shortened to Debbie. And.

I can't even say why, and it sounds fabricated after the fact, but I really did have a sort of disconnect feeling with the name. And then I got a little chunky in puberty and kids started yelling at me, hey, fat Debbie, do you want some more Little Debbie's, which are snack cakes.

I was like, you know what? I just, it was over the summer one year, and I think it was me coming back to eighth grade. And I was just like.

I think I just need a fresh start. And I think I identify more with my middle name. And weirdly, there was no issue with kids that had known me forever. Everybody just sort of was like, yeah, that makes sense.

[Terry Gross]

Your father was a counterintelligence agent for the Investigative Service. What is that? The Investigative Service?

[Rhea Seehorn]

Yeah, it was called NIS at the time, Naval Intelligence. And now it's ncis of the Mark Harmon variety.

Yeah, he was in the Tet Offensive in Vietnam in the army, and then became a Ranger and then went to nis, which I'm not sure if that's an unusual trajectory or not. As Far as the switch from services, but we were civilian, and the counterintelligence unit.

You know, would be like. We moved. I was born in Norfolk, Virginia, and then we immediately moved. Or NoFIC, if you're from there, immediately moved to Japan, then Arizona, and then we moved back to Virginia to catch the Walker spy family, which was a big case in the 80s that he worked on. That he worked on. Yeah. That was a joint investigation with nis.

FBI and CIA about two brothers, I think they were Navy and CIA, that both had decided to turn secrets to become moles for the kgb.

So it's counterintelligence, meaning our people. You're investigating our own, who have decided to work for the other.

[Terry Gross]

So did your father's work as a counterintelligence agent require him to do spycraft, like wearing disguises?

[Rhea Seehorn]

No. I hear from other people that he. When he was a deep in the field agent.

Even pre the fall of the Iron Wall and all of that stuff before my sister and I were around or at least conscious of his stuff. I hear there were disguises and things like that way back then.

But after that, it felt. We understood that he was investigating people, and we understood that he went to an office and that it involved government and military officials and stuff, or maybe just government officials.

And when we'd move, we'd sometimes live on a base for a short while while they found us residential housing.

But I wasn't. I knew he was investigating things, and I knew that they were secret, but I didn't have a lot more details than that. And I am loathe to say that my head was too far up my butt as a teenager to actually be interested in what my parents actually do. And then he died when I was 18, so I didn't get to ask a lot of the questions that I wish I had asked.

[Terry Gross]

Well, he probably wouldn't have answered them.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Probably not. And my dad's favorite answer to everything was, what do you write in a book? If you even just said, like, where are you going? What do you write in a book? And I thought I was so brilliant when I was 15 that I finally had a come back. And I said, I go, yeah, I am. And he said, well, then leave this chapter out. And then.

[Terry Gross]

Your father became a heavy drinker, Is that right?

[Rhea Seehorn]

Correct.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. What impact did that have on you?

[Rhea Seehorn]

Apparently, he was a heavy drinker for most of his adult life, but it just didn't get labeled as alcoholism, you know? And my dad was the life of the party, and very, very smart. Very, very Funny, with a super dry wit and growing up in a time where like having martinis, I don't know that they had them at lunch if you're working for the government. But it was pretty normal that that's what you do at the end of the day. And then that just keeps creeping up. Especially if.

I don't know. I wish he was here so I could ask him. It makes me so sad that it at least wasn't. I don't know if it is now. I feel like it's gotten better from what I hear. But regularly.

Offering and even normalizing people in the service to get therapy, it just wasn't a thing back then. The idea that he was in the Tet offensive and as far as I know, never talked to anybody about it.

And that you would have a life built of a lot of secrets and you know, even investigating sometimes your own department then I don't remember him ever saying that he had anybody to talk to about it. So I just bring that up because I think self medicating was going on for quite a while before it physically became a full blown.

Issue and then full blown disease.

[Terry Gross]

You thought you would have a career in the visual arts as a painter. How did you get into acting? What changed your mind?

[Rhea Seehorn]

I wanted so badly to run away with the circus. And by that I mean television and film. I was obsessed with television film. And as a kid in the suburbs in Virginia, I'd never known anybody that had even the loosest association with the entertainment business.

And thought it was just an impossible dream. And then in my first year at George Mason University, you had to take an elective in the arts. That was not your major. And my major was fine arts.

And so I took an acting class with Lenny Raybuck. And very thankfully it was not a emotional ooey gooey class. I took plenty of those later. But this was a hardcore do your homework script analysis class using practical aesthetics that was developed out of the Atlantic Theater. And I just was in love with the fact that if you work really hard and study, you can incrementally get closer and closer to being good at this and hopefully one day great at this. And that was the best news ever to me because I didn't know a lot about how to do this thing, but I thought, oh, if you just want hours put in and like stay home and study and work at this.

I'm in. And then almost immediately the idea that, oh, this is studying the behavior of humans and the whys. And it was at times a very difficult household coming up. And the idea that you could actually start thinking about people's behavior as.

A result of what it is that they want and their inability to use the correct tactic or the given circumstance that are holding them back, it's just like it blew my mind that that is how you can organize human behavior and not only have empathy for it, but mimic it in a way that invites people in to go on a journey with you when you're on stage. And then I started going to D.C. theater, which I think is some of the world's best theater, is Washington, D.C. theater. And watching those performers and was just like, I have to do this immediately. I have to do this for the rest of my life. I don't know how many day jobs I'm going to have to have. It was not about being famous. I knew that I had to be an actor and I'd support myself however I had to.

[Terry Gross]

Well, Racy Horn, I want to thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this interview. I really like Pluribus.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Thanks.

[Terry Gross]

So thank you for all of that.

[Rhea Seehorn]

This is a dream come true being here.

[Terry Gross]

Racy Horn stars in the new Apple TV series Pluribus. After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review some new Christmas songs. This is FRESH air.

[Rhea Seehorn]

It's been a great year for tv, movies and music and we are highlighting the best of the best, including K Pop, Demon Hunters, Sinners and Severance. We're talking about our favorite moments of the year, including some of the best pop culture you might have missed. Listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Tis the season. You'll find plenty of good holiday movies, films that can be counted upon to deliver warmth and cheer and bad holiday movies. They can be fun in their own way. So we're debating what's the worst holiday movie of all time? And yes, we'll be talking about love. Actually. Listen to pop Culture Happy Hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Regular insurance is great for your standard day to day risks, but for those once in a generation catastrophes, countries like Jamaica have made other preparations. We all realize that that hurricanes are inevitable and we can't just sit here and hope. We had to be proactive on Planet Money, how Jamaica weathered the worst hurricane.

[Terry Gross]

In the country's history with a bet.

[Rhea Seehorn]

Planet Money Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Terry Gross]

It's the time of year when pop stars release holiday music. And rock critic Ken Tucker has been listening to a lot of the newest Releases. He's got a roundup that includes Christmas songs from Brad Paisley, Mickey Guyton, Leon Bridges, and Old Crow Medicine Show. Let's start with country singer guitarist Brad Paisley.

[Tony Dalton]

Walking down the street Looking at the faces seeing just a few more smiles? Storefront windows getting decorated. No it won't be long now. All the cafes making peppermint lattes. You can make mine a double? Cause it's been a grind? But I see Christmas lights at the end of the tunnel and we're counting down the days.

Till the world.

[Tony Dalton (alternate lines)]

Brad Paisley is counting down the days until Christmas. Are you Paisley, a superb country guitarist with a puckish sense of humor, has made what is easily the best night collection of Christmas music. It's called Snow Globe Town. Paisley knows how to layer a proper Christmas album. It's got some lovely ballads infused with snow and sentiment. It's got a couple of novelty tunes such as one about a naughty elf on a shelf. He covers traditional songs such as Santa Claus is coming to Town and Christmas carols like oh holy Night. My favorite new song on this album is is this warm, pretty composition called Falling. Just like the snow I am melting.

[Tony Dalton]

Just like the ice on our boots by the door and just like the fire I feel warm. Cause when I look at you with your eyes all aglow? Girl I'm falling just like the snow.

[Tony Dalton (alternate lines)]

Another country vocalist, Mickey Guyton, has an album called Feels like Christmas. It's a cheerful bunch of songs. You can hear Guyton smile as she sings them. One standout is the song Sugar Cookie, which is arranged to sound like a sweet bit of Motown pop from decades past. Sugar Cookie is a new song that arrives with built in nostalgia.

[Tony Dalton]

I gotta say I've been having this craving every day. I've been wishing and praying for the taste. I can't wait. It's been keeping me up all night. Oh, you're the one I want the most?

[Rhea Seehorn]

You're always melting my heart.

[Tony Dalton]

Turn me in a marshmallow? When all the snow flowers I've been dying for the silver to drop? Cause baby you're the accent on top? You're my sugar sugar cookie? Sugar that goody goody sweetness fresh out the oven. Your gift, I'll take a D. You keep me warm when it's cold outside? You make it feel like Christmas time.

[Tony Dalton (alternate lines)]

I show the R and B singer Leon Bridges has released an enigmatic holiday track, a tune called A Merry Black Christmas. It's a rueful variation on the Irving Berlin classic White Christmas. Remember the line about a white Christmas? Just like the ones I used to know. Here it becomes a black Christmas just like the one I've never had before.

His gravelly croon lends a certain melancholy to the beauty that Leon Bridges summons up here.

[Tony Dalton]

I'm thinking, I'm thinking about a merry Christmas.

Just like the one I never had before.

Like kids out in the street with no shoes on. The fear.

The happy what a happy K to see.

I'm thinking.

Wow. I'm thinking, I think.

Thinking about a merry black Christmas.

[Tony Dalton (alternate lines)]

We began with Brad Paisley counting the days until Christmas arrives. We will end with Old Crow Medicine show thinking about the day after Christmas. This jaunty Nashville based string band has a clever original song called December 26th.

[Tony Dalton]

Well, another year has come and gone. We sang the song and drunk the nog. The twinkle lights are staying on all day FA la la. The fridge is full of Christmas goose and needles dropping off the spruce. The ornaments are getting loose and falling FA la la. It's time to throw away the tree clear out the opening debris. It's far too soon, don't you agree? Hang on FA la la. The relatives pack up the car and follow back the evening star with heavy bags and heavy hearts. Because it's the day after Christmas and we gotta wait a whole dang year.

For the holly and garland and el zon shell. The saying the bells and the pine trees we'll go. Wanna listen to the fading sounds of reindeer. Cause it's the day after Christmas and we ain't out of cheer.

[Tony Dalton (alternate lines)]

Whether you're anxiously awaiting Christmas or or already wishing the holidays would be over, here's a lot of music that lets you know you're not alone.

[Terry Gross]

Rock critic Ken Tucker reviewed Christmas music from Brad Paisley, Mickey Guyton, Leon Bridges and Old Crow Medicine show tomorrow on FRESH AIR. Is the U.S. headed toward another financial meltdown? We'll hear from New York Times business writer Andrew Ross Sorkin, who says history has lessons to offer. Author of a best selling book on the 2008 financial crisis, his latest is a gripping account of the stock market crash that led to the Great depression. It's called 1929. I hope you'll join us.

[Tony Dalton]

It's a marshmallow world in the winter when the snow comes to cover the ground. It's a time for play. It's a whipped cream day. I wait for it the whole year round. Those marshmallow clouds being friendly in the arms of the evergreen trees. And the sun is red like a pumpkin head. You're shining so your nose don't freeze. The world is your snowball See how it grows, that's how it goes Whenever it snows the world is your snowball Just for a song get out and roll it along It's a yum yum world made for sweethearts Take a walk with your favorite girl It's a sugar date and what if spring is late and winter it's a marshmallow world.

[Terry Gross]

To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram Prime. Fresh Air Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Reboldonato, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly Siebel Nessburg our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorok directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

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[Rhea Seehorn]

Podcast on wait, wait, don't tell me.

[Tony Dalton (alternate lines)]

Famous actors remember their days of obscurity.

[Tony Dalton]

Like when Pedro Pascal remembered the stress of being a woman waiter, the logistical labor of meeting everyone's needs in the right manner. Act 1 the water Act 2 the drink Listen to Wait Wait in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.