Starvation In American Jail Cells

Summary

Summary of "Starvation In American Jail Cells" – Fresh Air, NPR

Episode Release Date: April 17, 2025

Guest: Sarah Stillman, Staff Writer for The New Yorker and Pulitzer Prize Winner

---

Introduction

In the episode titled "Starvation In American Jail Cells," hosts Dave Davies and Terry Gross delve into the harrowing issue of malnutrition and dehydration among incarcerated individuals in American jails. Through an in-depth conversation with Sarah Stillman, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, the episode exposes the systemic failures that lead to such tragedies, particularly among those with mental health challenges.

---

The Tragic Case of Mary Faith Casey

Sarah Stillman's article, "Starved in Jail," opens with the heartbreaking story of Mary Faith Casey, a woman in her 60s who died from protein calorie malnutrition after enduring four months in a Tucson, Arizona jail. Arrested for a minor parole violation—specifically, failing to register her address—Mary's case is emblematic of a larger, troubling trend.

Sarah Stillman ([02:07]):
"Mary was a very vibrant and very loved person. She had two kids who she loved dearly... By the time she was in her 60s, she often found herself unhoused, and she actually wound up in the Pima County Jail because of a probation violation tied essentially to being unhoused."

Mary's son, Carlin, discovered her in a hospital, emaciated and lifeless, prompting a deeper investigation into the conditions that led to her demise.

---

Systemic Failures in Jails

The conversation reveals that Mary Casey's tragic outcome is not an isolated incident but part of a widespread problem where mentally ill individuals languish in jails without proper treatment. Many of these individuals are arrested for minor offenses and remain in pretrial detention for extended periods, worsening their mental health conditions.

Sarah Stillman ([05:22]):
"Mary didn't receive psychiatric care promptly, leading to her decompensation while waiting in pretrial detention."

Legal experts argue that the privatization of healthcare in jails exacerbates these issues. Contracts with private companies like NafCare often impose financial constraints that result in understaffing and inadequate care.

Sarah Stillman ([09:16]):
"The contracts are constructed with capped costs, so any additional money spent on care becomes money out of the providers' own pockets, incentivizing understaffing and neglect."

---

Historical Context: Deinstitutionalization and Mass Incarceration

Stillman provides a historical backdrop, explaining how the deinstitutionalization movement of the 1960s led to the closure of psychiatric facilities without adequate community support, pushing mentally ill individuals into the criminal justice system instead.

Sarah Stillman ([06:54]):
"Instead of finding a genuine solution to the problem, what we decided to do as a country was to make a sweeping promise to take people out of these facilities and provide actual mental health care in communities. But that community care never really got resourced, leading to mass incarceration."

This shift resulted in jails becoming the primary providers of mental health care, particularly in major cities like New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles.

Sarah Stillman ([08:07]):
"The three largest mental health providers in the country are the county jail systems of New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles."

---

Privatization of Healthcare in Jails

The episode explores how the privatization of healthcare services in jails contributes to the neglect and maltreatment of inmates. Private companies, driven by profit motives, often cut corners, leading to inadequate medical care.

Sarah Stillman ([09:16]):
"Introducing a profit motive can be problematic in the provision of mental health care. Contracts with capped costs mean that any additional spending on care comes directly out of the providers' pockets, leading to severe understaffing."

---

Legal Implications: Felony Murder Doctrine

Stillman shifts focus to the felony murder doctrine, a legal principle allowing individuals to be charged with murder if a death occurs during the commission of a felony, regardless of intent. This doctrine has led to life sentences for individuals indirectly involved in fatal incidents.

In the case of Sadiq Baxter from Florida, Stillman describes how Baxter was sentenced to life without parole for the deaths of two bicyclists caused by his accomplice during a high-speed police chase.

Sarah Stillman ([30:37]):
"Sadiq Baxter was convicted of first-degree murder because he was involved in a felony that resulted in deaths, even though he wasn't directly responsible for the incident."

---

Personal Stories Highlighting Systemic Issues

The episode underscores several cases where neglect and systemic failures have led to preventable deaths. Videos and records reviewed by Stillman reveal a pattern of misconduct and indifference, such as inmates dying unnoticed despite claims of regular check-ins.

Sarah Stillman ([13:30]):
"Watching people in profound distress not receiving help correlates with documentation showing discrepancies, sometimes indicating fatal neglect."

---

Reforming the System

Stillman advocates for comprehensive reforms to address these systemic issues. She emphasizes the need to decriminalize mental health issues, eliminate privatization of healthcare in jails, and implement community-based mental health interventions.

Sarah Stillman ([25:30]):
"Alternative responses to mental health crises, like mental health teams instead of armed officers, could prevent many of these tragic outcomes."

---

Impact on the Public and Legal System Transparency

A significant barrier to addressing these issues is the lack of transparency in the legal system. Many instances of neglect and abuse go unreported or are misclassified, making it difficult to gauge the true extent of the problem.

Sarah Stillman ([17:24]):
"We are faced with a systemic pattern of neglect that resembles widespread torture of individuals with mental health issues."

---

Conclusion

Sarah Stillman's investigative reporting, as discussed in this episode of Fresh Air, highlights a critical and often overlooked crisis within the American criminal justice system. The intersection of mental health, privatized healthcare, and flawed legal doctrines like felony murder creates a perfect storm for human rights abuses. The episode calls for urgent reforms to prevent further tragedies and to uphold the dignity and rights of incarcerated individuals.

---

Notable Quotes

• On Mary Casey's Life Before Incarceration ([02:07]):
  "Mary was a very vibrant and very loved person... By the time she was in her 60s, she often found herself unhoused, and she actually wound up in the Pima County Jail because of a probation violation tied essentially to being unhoused."

• On Privatization's Impact ([09:16]):
  "Introducing a profit motive can be problematic in the provision of mental health care. Contracts with capped costs mean that any additional spending on care comes directly out of the providers' pockets, leading to severe understaffing."

• On Systemic Neglect ([13:30]):
  "Watching people in profound distress not receiving help correlates with documentation showing discrepancies, sometimes indicating fatal neglect."

• On Felony Murder Doctrine ([37:45]):
  "Felony murder could simply be abolished altogether or narrowed in ways that make it much more accountable to what most of the public would perceive as justice."

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the critical discussions and insights from the "Starvation In American Jail Cells" episode of Fresh Air, providing a clear understanding of the severe issues facing incarcerated individuals with mental health challenges in the United States.

Transcript

[Terry Gross]

This message comes from Capella University. At Capella, you can earn your degree with support from people who care about your success. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella. Edu.

[Dave Davies]

This is FRESH air. I'm Dave Davies. Nobody wants to go to jail or see a loved one taken there. They're crowded, unpleasant and sometimes dangerous. But we generally expect that the incarcerated will get the basics, a bed and toilet, three meals a day and help. But our guest, New Yorker staff writer Sarah Stillman, begins her latest article with the story of a woman in her 60s who died of protein calorie malnutrition, the apparent result of prolonged starvation during her four month stay at a Tucson, Arizona, jail. Stillman finds that starving in jail is far more common than you might think. The victims are often mentally ill people who are arrested for minor crimes and and then languished behind bars, untreated and unable to make bail. Lawyers and activists say the problem has increased with the practice of counties granting contracts to private companies to provide health care to the incarcerated. Stillman interviewed many surviving relatives and reviewed countless records of disturbing cases for her article titled Starved in Jail. In addition to her work for the New Yorker, Sarah Stillman teaches journalism at Yale, where she also runs the Yale Investigative Reporting Lab. Stillman won the 2024 Pulitzer Prize for explanatory reporting for her article about the little known but widely used legal doctrine of felony murder. That's a subject we'll get to a little later. Well, Sarah Stillman, welcome to FRESH air. You open your story about starvation with the case of Mary Faith Casey, a woman in her 60s who's arrested and taken to a county jail after something that I guess was a parole violation, technically a failure to register her address, something relatively minor. Before we get to what happened to her there, just tell us something about her life before she entered the Pima County Jail.

[Terry Gross]

Well, Mary, like many of the people I wrote about for this piece, was a very vibrant and very loved person. She had a life with two kids who she loved dearly. She was always the kind of very nurturing mother who would, you know, sew their Halloween costumes by hand. And at some point as she got older, she developed some serious mental health issues and slid into addiction. I think it's a story that many, many can relate to. And shockingly, by the time she was in her 60s, she often found herself unhoused, and she actually wound up in the Pima County Jail because of a probation violation, tied essentially to being unhoused because she had to register her address, and she didn't have one.

[Dave Davies]

And what were her diagnoses?

[Terry Gross]

She had struggled with schizophrenia, and she had a diagnosis also of bipolar disorder. So very common things that so many families struggle with.

[Dave Davies]

Her children and siblings had struggled to get her help, you know, through mental illness and homelessness and previous arrests over the years. Very difficult, of course. And you describe in this piece her son Carlin driving to the hospital where she had finally been taken after about four months in this county jail. What did he see when he entered this hospital and saw his mom in a vet?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, her son Carlin was completely shocked. He saw a woman who looked utterly different than when he had last seen her just a few months before. She was essentially just as he described it, skin and bones. She was extremely thin. She was wearing a diaper. She just was unrecognizable and looked like she had aged many years, which, of course, prompted the question for him of, like, what on earth happened to you? And he decided he was going to investigate and try to get to the bottom of it.

[Dave Davies]

And generally speaking, what did they learn about her experience in those four months in the jail?

[Terry Gross]

So they really started digging into the jail conditions, and what they found is that many people who have mental health disorders, including Mary, when they're put in these kinds of conditions, they become really terrified and sometimes have fears that their jailers are trying to poison them and they cease to eat. And so Mary, although when she had arrived, she had immediately articulated that she is someone who needs psychiatric medications, at least as far as we understand it from the documents. But she didn't receive those, didn't receive at the start any chance to see a psychiatrist or get the kind of treatment that she needed. And waited quite some time for that. Again, mind you, she's waiting there, actually, pre trial, like the vast majority of the people that I reported on for this piece and wound up not being brought to many of her jail hearings because of the fact that she had psychologically decompensated, which was actually how this piece was initially pitched to me. The attorneys have brought it to me saying many, many people are being deprived of their civil rights by virtue of the fact that they're being detained pretrial for things they haven't even yet been found guilty of. And then not being brought to their court hearings because they're having mental health issues that they're not being treated for in the jail. And so people in the jail are determining that, you know, they can't even bring them to the hearing to get them out because so many of these people had charges that ultimately would have been dropped, as was ultimately the case for Mary when a judge saw her months later looking emaciated.

[Dave Davies]

Yeah. Or would stay in jail much longer than they would have had they actually been sentenced for their alleged crimes. Exactly. She eventually ends up in this hospital, and what happened from there?

[Terry Gross]

So ultimately, the very sad reality that I didn't know when I began reporting this is that if you've not eaten for many months or been dehydrated for many months, oftentimes medically you can't fully be revived. So the doctors met and made the decision that there was nothing that could actually bring Mary back to capacity and decided she could be released to hospice care to die. So ultimately, the autopsy ruled it a death by protein calorie malnutrition, as you said, which was a term I'd never heard. I mean, the really sad thing for me in reporting this was just learning so many of these terms that pertain to people who. A cause of being malnourished or dehydrated in the jails, died of a whole slew of causes that could have been so easily prevented. Unlike, you know, I think so often about. We've heard about police violence of the sort that happens in an instant or in a moment. Like we think about George Floyd. And then I also now have a new category in my brain that's these types of deaths that happen across many weeks or months, even where everyone is looking and seeing a person grow more and more frail and not take their food trays day after day and still be allowed essentially to waste away.

[Dave Davies]

You know, there's a history worth recalling here about how mental health care changed in the 1960s, when many, many more people were institutionalized. Do you want to just remind us of that?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. It's a big set of intersecting histories, I think, because we've got the big history of deinstitutionalization. So people may be familiar with the idea that for a long time, many Americans who were struggling with mental health issues were held in psychiatric facilities that were often also very heinous conditions without the right kind of treatment. And there was a rightful outcry about that. And then instead of finding a genuine solution to the problem, what we decided to do as a country is, you know, make a big sweep promise that we would take people out of these facilities and then provide actual mental health care in communities. And then that type of community care never really got resourced. And instead what we did is take off on the trajectory of mass Incarceration. So seeing the increase of criminalizing people for being poor, criminalizing people for their addictions. And so at that same time that we saw many, many people released from these psychiatric asylums that had been abusive, they basically just got re swept up in the net of county jails and prisons and other places that weren't really well equipped to heal or even remotely address the realities of mental health.

[Dave Davies]

You have this striking fact that the three largest mental health providers in the country are the county jail systems of New York, Chicago and Los Angeles.

[Terry Gross]

Exactly. And I think many people don't know about the difference between a prison and a jail. A jail typically having been designed to be a short passing through space while you're either serving out a short sentence or awaiting trial. And what we've seen also in this time period is just a massive surge in pretrial detention. People waiting sometimes not just months, but literally years just to have their day in court. And people with mental health issues, they've found, have a much greater chance of spending quite some time in these facilities, which, as you can imagine, are one of the worst places to try to get mentally well. And to the contrary, especially for the folks of whom there are many who are put in solitary confinement or other very isolated conditions, we all know the facts of that. It's not surprising to hear that that is not a way to mentally heal.

[Dave Davies]

Now, another big part of this story is the privatization of health care generally, including mental health care in correctional institutions. You know, it's not so easy to treat people with these difficult and often, you know, multiple diagnoses, even in a good clinical setting. What drove this trend towards having private companies come in to manage healthcare for the incarcerated?

[Terry Gross]

I think there are a lot of factors there. One is just a big sweeping trend in American life to increasingly privatize services that might fundamentally be public ones. And I think the provision of actual care, mental health care, and medical care in jails is a good example of where introducing a profit motive can be problematic. I mean, I've come to view it as quite complicated. I don't think it's as simple as many of the people who work on this have told me. It's not as simple as just eliminating privatization from this sphere and everything would be fine. I mean, I don't think county sheriffs are terribly, well, incentivized either to provide really quality mental health care, even though our communities are incentivized to have that. Because, you know, if we actually treated this moment as a chance for public health intervention instead of as A chance to incarcerate. I think the outcomes for communities would be good. But in the context of the privatization, a lot of what many of the lawyers I spoke to have argued is that they've seen the way the contracts are constructed as contracts that have essentially a capped cost, so that any further money they spend on care of incarcerated people becomes money out of their own pocketbook. You can imagine how that would incentivize things, like the tremendous understaffing I saw while reporting on this issue.

[Dave Davies]

Now, in Pima County, Arizona, which was where Mary Casey was incarcerated, the health care was provided by a company called nafcare, am I saying that correctly? And her children decided they wanted to have a lawyer look into the possibility of litigation. And when they went to this firm who'd done this work, they said, yeah, we're familiar with them. What did they tell them about their practices and results over the years?

[Terry Gross]

Well, the law firm to whom they went, they had sued this company before, as have many others, because there's been quite a range of jail deaths tied to negligence as well as other kinds of medical health crises. In fact, just in this past month, there was a big settlement reached in regard to someone in a Washington state jail who basically had his leg rotting off and it wasn't treated or attended to. So they found a law firm, Budge and Hype in Seattle, that had done a lot of jail death litigation. Because I think it's really important to emphasize it's not just nafcare. I mean, there's quite a number of companies operating in this space, and many of these companies have been providing care in instances where there was actually deaths of pretty astonishing neglect.

[Dave Davies]

One detail kind of stuck out to me when, you know, the attorneys looked at Mary Casey's experience at this jail and they looked at the intake form when she was admitted to the prison and what was missing. Tell us about that.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, in her intake form there was supposed to be, as the lawyers saw it, a space for the medication she'd previously been on. And she did articulate her need for those, but simply just didn't see a mental health provider in a timely fashion. And she's not, of course, the only one at that jail who needed such services. A lot of those positions went unstaffed for basically the majority of time that Mary was in the jail. And I should say too, the lawyers who are representing the family, they had worked on many of these cases and a lot of them involved much younger people. Like literally in one case, an 18 year old mark Moreno, whose story really stood out to me, because it was really a story of how we criminalize people for their mental health issues instead of providing the treatment at the front end. This was a young kid whose father had actually taken him to a local mental health crisis center during the midst of a serious episode. Mark had been like talking to angels and was clearly in the throes of something. And instead of receiving treatment there, what happened? That he was turned over to police who were supposed to take him to the hospital, and instead they found that he had two misdemeanor warrants for traffic violations. And based on those misdemeanor warrants, he was instead taken to the county jail, where he wound up dying eight days later of dehydration. So it could happen not just to someone like Mary in her 60s, but also to teenagers, multiple teenagers.

[Dave Davies]

You write that there are hundreds of hours of abusive neglect captured on video and preserved in these cases, many of which you reviewed. What did you see?

[Terry Gross]

Well, one of the lawyers did warn me in sending me a video, he said, you know, this'll stain your brain. And that was an accurate statement for sure. I mean, it was the kind of slow motion harm that is just unlike anything I've seen before. Just watching people who are in very profound distress, sometimes seeking help and not receiving it, and then correlating that to or cross checking that against the documentation. Often at these sites, which sometimes had jail staff or medical staff saying that they were checking in on someone every day, that they looked totally fine and it was okay. And in fact, in some cases, they were literally already dead. So I think about Larry Price in Arkansas who died in solitary confinement, and the essential alleged fabrication of records where you see all these jail cell checks that say that he was doing fine and he's literally there in his cell, no longer alive, having starved.

[Dave Davies]

At the risk of being overly graphic, you noted that the records also contain cases of people who suffered from insect infestation or even rodent activity.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, a really alarming thing to me was places where this was pretty widespread. So I think about the Fulton county jail where President Trump was actually booked in, and that very same jail. We have seen well documented that in the mental health ward, 90% of the people were malnourished. And according to the private health care company's own records, internally, 100% of the people were essentially affected by some type of insect infestation or some type of parasite. So, yeah, I mean, in some cases, I found cases where people were literally, the autopsy report showed people who were. Had rat bites on them. There was Lice. There was scabies. I mean, I have to be honest, when they brought me this story, I thought, I don't know if this is where I really want my mind to be. And then I really thought, I don't want to live in a world where we don't care and notice and take the time to document and listen when this has happened to someone. And sadly, it's not just someone, it turns out it's a great many people.

[Dave Davies]

Right. You say that after years of studying these deaths, you find it hard to describe as anything but a pattern of widespread torture of people with mental health issues. That's strong language, but it's more akin to what we see in situations of torture than situations of incarceration.

[Terry Gross]

You know, I think I can stand behind that 100%, and I wish I couldn't. But the sad thing, having seen so many of these videos and looked so closely at these cases, I think what I've seen again and again is that in some of them it actually was ruled homicide because of that specific type of long scale neglect. Every day someone was coming in and noticing this person hadn't had a drink of water. In some cases, in cases that were found homicides, the people actually at the jail had shut the water off to the cell. I mean, I'm thinking about a young man named ke Keaton Ferris. He grew up right near where my parents live. My parents live on Orcas island off the coast of Washington State. It's a really beautiful place and Keaton really loved it. He always was writing on social media about his love of the ocean of nature. And then he wound up in a jail in the midst of a mental health crisis where the jail officials actually cut the water off to his cell for four days. And in his case, ultimately the sheriff did apologize when he died to the family, but they had to protest for, you know, almost every day outside the jail. And there's a big community movement kind of speaking up about this in his case, but also a great many others.

[Dave Davies]

You know, an important element of holding jailkeepers and private health providers accountable is maintaining records of treatment and making them available to investigators. What was your experience in seeking public records about these cases when a shocking.

[Terry Gross]

Number of the lawsuits records were actively destroyed? In some cases, judges found in regard to some of the companies that records had not just been accidentally discarded, but there were problems with the choice to not retain records even in the context of litigation where a teenager had died. And so that was a major issue, I found. And then even just trying to get the basics on, like, who's dying in jails and of what we found that often when we asked for records, first of all, the jails don't keep good records on the specific category of death. The categories often we found where people were said to have had a quote, unquote, natural death. And these were people often in their 30s or 40s or again, even their teens, who had died of starvation, which doesn't seem terribly natural. But that's how it's classified most of the time in the records.

[Dave Davies]

What do county coroners do when they find these folks who have, you know, been under the care of prison health officials for weeks or months and die in these circumstances? How do they rule the deaths?

[Terry Gross]

It really runs the gamut. I mean, I found a case in Florida of a young person in his 20s that was classified as a suicide, and the cause of death was described as fasting. And in other cases, as I mentioned, sometimes it is actually found to be a homicide because these people were in the care of a facility that didn't care for them. And then in other cases, it is listed as exactly what it was, but classified as natural. So it really, you see the full range.

[Dave Davies]

And that makes a difference in when civil litigations occur, what the coroner says?

[Terry Gross]

I believe so. It makes a difference, too, to what the public knows and doesn't know. I mean, I think we haven't really understood this to be a pattern for quite some time, because it's hard to surface it. And I think there's many, many more cases than we know of, because many of the cases I was able to find, I found through the painstaking process of looking for litigation and doing these records searches. But one has to imagine there's many cases we never find out about because people like the main woman I wrote about, Mary Casey, she actually died in hospice care, not in the actual jail itself, so she would never be counted as a jail death. And I think it's also important to note, I mean, most of these cases are people who the jail wasn't always the one depriving them of food and water. I mean, much of the time it was people who just were being untreated for their mental health issues, often placed in solitary and ceasing to eat, which I think it's not intuitive to many people, and it wasn't intuitive to me when I began, that that's actually a common, predictable symptom of certain mental health.

[Dave Davies]

Disorders because they believe that the food may be poisoned, or also because of.

[Terry Gross]

Severe depression, because of all the things that happen to you when you're placed in solitary. You know, I talked to this one Professor Craig Haney, who's an expert on these things across many decades. And he does a lot of jail visits. And he said, look, you have to imagine that even as a healthy person, he goes into many of these solitary cells and instantaneously gets overwhelmed by the despair of it. And so you can imagine if you already have a pre existing mental health issue, that it could be a place where you cease to have any hope and any will. And that can sometimes include the will to want to take care of yourself and want to eat and to drink.

[Dave Davies]

We're going to take another break. Here we are speaking with Sarah Stillman. She's a staff writer for the New Yorker. Her new article about mentally ill people who suffer from dehydration and malnutrition in county jails is titled Starved in Jail. She'll be back to talk more after a short break. I'm Dave Davies and this is FRESH air.

[Terry Gross]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Disney. Season one of Andor had critics calling it the best Star wars series yet. Now season two of the Emmy nominated series returns April 22nd. Follow Cassian Andor as he embarks on a path from a rebel to a hero starring Diego Luna. And from creator Tony Gilroy, writer of Michael Clayton and the bourne identity. Season two of Andor is streaming April 22nd only on Disney. This month, Short Wave is diving into the science of psychedelics. Chances are you've heard of drugs like LSD and magic mushrooms or psilocybin. Now some researchers are making new drugs inspired by psychedelic compounds with a key difference. They're taking out the trip. We just move things around a little bit here and there, hear about how it works on Short Wave, the science podcast.

[Dave Davies]

From NPR at Planet Money, we'll take you from a race to make rum in the Caribbean.

[Terry Gross]

Our rum from a quality standpoint is.

[Dave Davies]

The best in the world. To the labs dreaming up the most advanced microchips.

[Terry Gross]

It's very rare for people to go.

[Dave Davies]

Inside to the back rooms of New York's Diamond District. What are you looking for? The stupid guy here, they're all smart. Don't worry about Planet Money from npr. We go to the Story and take you along with us wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, hey there.

[Terry Gross]

I'm Brittany Luce.

[Dave Davies]

And I don't know, maybe this is.

[Terry Gross]

A little out of pocket to say.

[Dave Davies]

But I think you should listen to my podcast. It's called It's Been a Minute and I love it and I think you will, too. Over the past couple months, over 100,000 new listeners started tuning in. Find out why. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast from NPR today. Why did the lawyers approach you for this story about Mary Casey?

[Terry Gross]

Well, you know, it's interesting to me. I was looking back the other day at the original email they'd written me to pitch me on this story, and I realized they'd actually pitched it as a story about how many people are deprived of their right to get a hearing before a judge simply because they're actually being detained, often because they're being criminalized for being homeless or because they're being criminalized for a mental health issue. And then they're not being treated. And so they're decompensating and being in a situation where the jailers then say they can't bring them to court because they're not mentally well enough. So it's this weird paradox where people are falling into this bizarre legal black hole, not having their right to go to trial or go to a hearing with a judge. So that's how it was actually brought to me. And at the end, they mentioned and she starved to death. And to me, of course, my eyes popped out and I said, okay, she starved. Like that just was shocking to me. So I thought, okay, yeah, I'll look into this. And I thought I'd just write a short piece about Mary. And that was my intention. But then I started digging and found another case like that, and then another case. And then it turned out that firm alone had actually taken on a bunch of starvation and dehydration death cases. So, yeah, that was a complete shock to me that there were so many cases to uncover, so many more I still haven't uncovered.

[Dave Davies]

You know, you worked with the Yale Investigative Reporting Lab and identified, you write, more than 20 private companies providing care in jails where alleged deaths from neglect occurred. I'm wondering what you heard from those companies, particularly nafcare, which was the. Was the provider in the case of Mary Casey, the woman that you write so much about.

[Terry Gross]

Well, I really, really respected that the head of that company, Brad McLean, was willing to talk with me, and I thought he made some really important arguments about the fact that. That he does seem to believe that it's important that people get mental health care in their communities first, before they're even sent to jail, and that they provide it once they're in jail and actually have the resources to do so. I think what's devastating is that it's just hard to look at so many instances where this did happen. Again, not just with nafcare, but also many other companies and also some counties that didn't privatize also had these deaths. And so it's sometimes hard to figure out how to bridge the disconnect between the rhetoric around the care we as a society want to provide and the rhetoric many of these corporations say they are committed to providing. And then seeing these outcomes in what I recognize is a very, very, very hard environment in which to do this work. Because again, I think that's the fundamental core problem here is the wrong decision to be criminalizing people for their mental health issues and keeping them detained far too long pretrial.

[Dave Davies]

You know, you make the point that cash bail is an important part of this. I mean, when people can't make bail to get out of jail, if they have mental health issues, it's going to get worse. And particularly if they're denied medications and treatment will get worse quickly and continue to get worse. There are some states that have experimented with eliminating this. I think New Jersey. Do they have better records, as this issue goes?

[Terry Gross]

Because again, the record keeping is so bad to begin with on this type of death. I think we don't really have clear data on that. But I think what we do know is that a wealth based detention system fundamentally ends up discriminating against people not on the basis of anything other than their wealth. And so in assessing whether someone should be locked up for so long, I mean, we're also just paying a tremendous amount of the society to lock people up for their mental health issues. Again, on things that judges, once the people get their day in court, often wind up dismissing or getting a lesser charge to anyway. So I think if we could find other systems, even at the front end for dealing with, with police calls. I mean, I think one thing that's being explored very productively is that the alternative to locking someone up in such an instance could be having a mental health team arrive and instead of armed officers who are not necessarily trained to help someone in the midst of a mental health crisis, having people for whom that is their expertise be the ones responding, I think can also really help this issue at the front end before someone's even facing the question of whether they can afford cash pay.

[Dave Davies]

When you dive deeply into a case like this in which so many people have suffered and continue to suffer and the issues really aren't resolved, is it hard to move on as a journalist to the next project?

[Terry Gross]

I think this one's gonna haunt me for a long time. I think in part because it's so many layers of our collective failure. And I wish it could just be one thing that my intention was to set out finding one thing that we could change. And instead I found this cascade of things. I mean, start starting with, like, why are so many people unhoused? And what would it really take to address that? And, you know, one of the things I'm most drawn to in journalism is, you know, in a world of just so many overwhelming and intractable social problems, it does feel like there's times when you see things where there's just a very clear room for change. And I think when it comes to the idea that, like, yes, it's hard to figure out how do we truly address the roots of the mental health crisis we're in. But it feels like a thing I, I deeply believe is doable is ensuring that people are not dying, teenagers, elderly folks, all kinds of folks of starvation and dehydration in our county jails and our own communities. And I feel like having communities take a closer look at what's happening in spaces that have been kind of held from the public's eyes to some of the most vulnerable people who deserve the most rudimentary treatment at the very least. I really do feel like that is something we are societally capable of in this moment and something that I hope reporting can be a part of bringing about.

[Dave Davies]

Sarah Stillman is a staff writer for the New Yorker. We will be right back. This is FRESH air. Want to know what's happening in the world?

[Terry Gross]

Listen to the State of the World podcast.

[Dave Davies]

Every weekday, we bring you important stories from around the globe. In just a few minutes, you might.

[Terry Gross]

Hear how democracy is holding up in South Korea or meet Indian monkeys that.

[Dave Davies]

Have turned to crime. We don't go around the world.

[Terry Gross]

We're already there. Listen to the State of the world podcast from NPR. This message comes from stamps.com how much is an hour of your time worth? Whether you're a realtor, lawyer, accountant or even a content creator, Stamps.com gives you the ability to focus your time on what you do best, not on tedious mailing and shipping tasks. Print stamps, shipping labels or certified mail forms. In seconds, more than 4 million customers have relied on stamps.com go to stamps.com NPR for a special offer. No contract, cancel anytime. That's stamps.com NPR since Donald Trump took office in January, a lot has happened. The White House Budget Office ordered a pause on all federal grants and loans. The impact of the Trump administration tariffs is already being felt in President Trump's efforts to radically remake the federal government. The NPR Politics podcast covers it all. Keep up with what's happening in Washington and beyond with the NPR Politics podcast. Listen.

[Dave Davies]

Every day this legal doctrine, felony murder kind of sounds weird because everybody thinks, well, surely murder is already a felony. I mean, what is the idea here?

[Terry Gross]

Basically, it means that people can be in many states prosecuted for murder and in some cases, first degree murder, if they were along in the commission of a felony where someone died, even if that was not their intention. So to break that down, what that could mean and does mean in some places is that some teenagers broke into a house and thought they were gonna steal an Xbox and the police arrived at the scene and shot one of the kids and another of the young people there was charged with the murder of the friend that the police had actually shot and killed. So the basic idea is to hold people accountable for knowing they went into dangerous situations. But it can lead surprising stretches of what we think of the concept of murder as meaning.

[Dave Davies]

Well, let's talk about the case that you cite, which is sort of your vehicle for exploring this. This is an event in August of 2012. What happened on the ground? What actually occurred?

[Terry Gross]

Well, so I wrote about the case of a young man named Sadiq Baxter in Florida. And he had made the bad decision to go out gambling with his friend. And he and the friend had, after losing a bunch of money, gone and started to jostle the car, handle doors of unlocked vehicles and take loose change. They took a drum set, they took a number of other things from these unlocked cars. A neighbor called the police and Siddiq was actually arrested and placed in handcuffs and he thought that would be that. And it turned out his friend had been around the corner in his vehicle and had tried to flee the scene when the cops arrived. And he wound up being chased in a high speed chase by law enforcement. And ultimately, miles away from where Siddiq was wound up, tragically hitting and killing, killing two bicyclists. And it turned out that Siddiq then wound up being prosecuted on two counts of first degree murder, which it's important to note in Florida, carries a mandatory sentence of life in prison without parole. So that is ultimately what Siddiq was convicted of.

[Dave Davies]

So the title of your article is sentenced to life for an accident miles away. So Siddiq was in handcuffs, but the guy who he had robbed cars with fled and killed these two bikelists in a car accident and he was arrested and charged with felony murder. And as is typical in these cases. Right. Was offered a plea deal. This is something, I gather, that is more attractive to prosecutors about felony murder. It allows them to exert more pressure on a defendant.

[Terry Gross]

Exactly. So he really believed he was innocent of the charge of murder. He immediately accepted that he had done a wrong thing by taking from the unlocked cars. So he pled guilty on the that charge, which in Florida actually did carry, I believe it was something like 25 years or something of the sort. So it was already a quite lengthy sentence. And he thought, okay, I'll take the other part of this, the murder part, to trial. But it turned out he didn't realize the way felony murder works, it actually meant that the judge basically said, my hands are tied. Like, you pled to this felony, and that means that you are de facto guilty of first degree murder, since that's the way the felony murder doctrine works in Florida. So the judge in the sentencing stage said, really, I don't think there's anything I can do. You just are going to be sentenced to life in prison without parole.

[Dave Davies]

You know, one of the remarkable things about this story and this use of felony murder is that the son of one of the bicyclists actually felt that Sadiq Baxter had been treated unfairly. Tell us that story.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, actually, one of the main things that drew me to Siddiq's story was really actually the children of one of the victims, Dina Malkin, who sounds like he was just a truly remarkable person. And he had these three kids who had a really wonderful relationship with him who were obviously incredibly devastated when their dad died. But then what they told me was that they were even further devastated when they found out that two other people were also going to be losing their children in another way, which is going to prison for life for the death. So Ian Amalkin, the son of Dean Amalkin, actually spoke with me in depth, as did his two sisters, really describing how they felt the sentence for Siddiq and O'Brien and the other person who was sent to prison for life for this was just not only unjust, but also just another source of pain for them. It wasn't what they wanted to see in coping with the grief of losing their father.

[Dave Davies]

And all three of these kids became public defenders, is that right?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, that's right. They're a very unusual, very smart and compassionate family. So I think they really stand out to me, having, you know, written a letter to the judge on Siddiq's behalf and really clearly articulating their stance as people who know the legal system and saying, like, we really, really think this is an overextension of what is appropriate.

[Dave Davies]

There's a legislative debate about this. Right. In states, and some argue that felony murder is a deterrent because it shows that if you go out to do some bad stuff, even if you don't think you're going to kill somebody, it can work very badly for you. You say studies show that's really not the case because nobody knows about this until they're caught up in such a case. Are there movements to change the law? Here are some states experimenting with doing it different, differently.

[Terry Gross]

I've been amazed that all around the country there are movements. And again, sometimes those movements among the voices within them are actually the families of the victims who've been speaking up, saying like this, we don't believe this serves us. This is not our sense of justice. Minnesota, I met some really incredible mothers whose daughters had been incarcerated on these charges for something, a murder that they themselves did not commit, that they had no idea was going to take place. These two moms, Linda and Tony, they knew nothing about the criminal justice system. One of them was working as a real estate agent. They were just living their lives. Their daughters were quite young and had gone along on a situation where they had suffered a lot of trauma in high school. They had wound up using drugs. Someone had, I believe, like, taken some drugs from them, and they went with some guys to try to get it back or something along those lines. And then when they arrived at the house, one of the guys they'd gone with wound up suddenly becoming violent, and they themselves were terrified. And this man ended up killing one of the guys there. And the girls who had had no idea that was gonna happen and who were actually being threatened in the process and who were scared for their own lives, they wound up being, due to the felony murder doctrine, prosecuted for and found guilty of murder.

[Dave Davies]

Tell us about Minnesota. Because they've made some changes, right?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah. So the two moms I just mentioned, they did a lot of work. And then I think last year they brought about a significant legisl that actually got their own daughters out of prison. And also many other people who are in the process of appealing their convictions based on that change. And they got bipartisan support for that bill because it is an issue that I found there is a lot of room across political divides to make changes around.

[Dave Davies]

Yeah, I can imagine some people who are listening who are thinking, well, look, if you go out and you rob a store and you know that people are going to be armed, you're engaging in something with the Risk of lethal violence. I mean, what's the distinction here with felon felony murder?

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, I think it does make a lot of intuitive sense that people need to be held accountable for the things they do and the cascade of events that can unfold when you choose to engage in something dangerous. I think the question is, is our current system as it's set up, pushing due to these hyper punitive sentences that really kind of came out of the war on drugs era, these crackdowns of such extreme sentences, even just the construct of mandatory life in prison without parole, without any capacity to have discretion, what really took place, what really was the fact pattern at play here? I think most people who look at a case like Siddiq's think that it is not serving us as a society, even just the costs alone to incarcerate a man for the rest of his life, to take him from his family for something that he was not even present for. It just doesn't really ring as justice to most people that I've spoken with across the aisle, really.

[Dave Davies]

Sadiq Baxter, actually, before his trial, he noticed in another case involving fellow felony murder, where a judge had sentenced somebody to life in prison for felony murder, but had said, look, if there were a circumstance where the person were literally in police custody, in a police car or in cuffs while their confederate went and committed a murder, it might be different. He hoped that this would be a basis for him avoiding this fate. It wasn't, but he stayed at it. He became a serious jailhouse lawyer.

[Terry Gross]

Yeah, he learned at the very beginning of the process, right when he got locked up pretrial, there was a man, Eric Redeemer, who was there in another jail cell, who decided to basically offer almost like a law class inside the jail where he was showing. Here's how I fought my case. Here's how you can fight your case. And so Siddiq became very disciplined about studying the law, studying his rights, and bringing these legal filings. So when I first found him, I mean, I found a lot of handwritten legal filings because he doesn't have access to all the different legal resources that you or I might have as a free person. But he would systematically, each day go to the law library and download what he could get and come up with legal theories. And he's still pushing, and he has been for years. And now he finally does have a shot.

[Dave Davies]

And do we know how many people are in prison around the country from this doctrine?

[Terry Gross]

Another wild thing about our system is that we really do not, as a public, have a transparent Window into who is locked up for what and why. I would have thought that's one of the more basic pieces of information in the criminal justice system. But what I found in looking at felony murder, I thought, I very naively thought at the beginning, oh, I'll just file some FOIA requests, I'll get these public records, I'll find out how many people are locked up across America on a felony murder conviction. Instead, what I found is many states said they kept no records on this. Many states, like Florida, they would actually change the charge on the books. So if you look at what Siddiq was originally charged with, it says, you know, first degree felony murder, but then when you are convicted, it just becomes first degree murder. So a lot of the people I spoke to who were incarcerated on this charge also felt just like the pain of knowing that when someone looks at their case, it looks like they made an intentional decision to murder, which is, I think, what most of us think the word murder means. But in the records, that's simply not how it's kept. And we do not have any idea how many people are in for this charge, but it's a great many.

[Dave Davies]

And in Siddiq's case, do you think it'll matter that the three children of one of the victims in this case feel passionately that this was unjust, that he was given life in prison for this?

[Terry Gross]

Well, the way they felt is that in the state of Florida, there's a great degree of emphasis put on what victims families want. And interestingly, actually, Ian Malkin said to me, he actually didn't think that was the way justice should be administered.

[Dave Davies]

But in light of the.

[Terry Gross]

Yes, Ian Malcolm, one of the sons, he felt that that's not how justice should administered. But he actually said, if that's how Florida feels, then I hope they'll take my feelings into consideration. Because he felt as if sometimes the prosecutor wanted a particular outcome and if he was willing to say that thing, then he was useful to them. And if he had a different thing to say as the victim of this particular harm, then he felt unheard. And I think I've talked to many victims families who felt that way and wish their voices were taken more into account. In a world of many just complex things regarding our criminal justice system, I think there's a lot of people who've made very good arguments for the idea that felony murder could simply be abolished altogether or narrowed in ways that make it much more accountable to what most of the public would perceive as justice.

[Dave Davies]

Well, Sarah Stillman, thank you so much for speaking with us.

[Terry Gross]

I really appreciate it. Thank you.

[Dave Davies]

Sarah Stillman is a staff writer for the New Yorker. Her new article is titled Starved in Jail. Coming up, we'll remember renowned jazz critic and a friend of FRESH AIR, Francis Davis. This is FRESH AIR. When Malcolm Gladwell presented NPR's Throughline podcast with a Peabody Award, he praised it.

[Terry Gross]

For its historical and moral clarity. On Throughline, we take you back in time to the origins of what's in the news, like presidential power, aging and evangelical time travel with us every week on the Throughline podcast from npr. Having news at your fingertips is great, but sometimes you need an escape and that's where shortwave comes in. We're a joy filled science podcast driven by wonder and curiosity that will get you out of your head and in touch with the world around you. Listen now to Short Wave, the science podcast from npr.

[Dave Davies]

Imagine, if you will, a show from NPR that's not like npr, a show that focuses not on the important, but the stupid, which features stories about people smuggling animals in their pants, incompetent criminals and ridiculous science studies. And call it Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me because of the good names were taken. Listen to NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me.

[Terry Gross]

Yes, that is what it is called.

[Dave Davies]

Wherever you get your podcasts, we're ending with some FRESH AIR family news. We want to send our sympathy and love to Terry Gross. Her husband, the noted writer and jazz critic Francis Davis, died Monday under home hospice care following an illness. For many years, Frances was the jazz critic for the Village Voice and later a contributing editor for the Atlantic Monthly. He's the author of many books on jazz, including Bebop and Nothingness in the Moment and outkats jazz composers, instrumentalists and singers. He won a Grammy in 2009 for his liner notes to the 50th anniversary reissue of the iconic Miles Davis recording Kind of Blue. In 2006, he started a critics poll for the Village voice that included 30 critics weighing in on the year's jazz releases now named after him. The Francis Davis Jazz Critics Poll had over 150 participating critics last year and he was Fresh Air's jazz critic when we were a local show in Philadelphia and during our earliest days as the national program. This is an excerpt from a piece he recorded in 1980 for his feature Interval on the jazz pianist Jackie Byard. You're listening to FRESH air, and this is Interval. I'm Francis Davis. The first jazz group I ever saw and heard in person was a quartet led by pianist Jackie Byard at a concert presented by the Philadelphia College of art around 1966. I remember the tenor saxophonist Joe Farrell stepping down off the bandstand during a long drum solo and pulling a cigarette from the pack in the breast pocket of a sports coat and asking me, did I have a match? And I remember Jackie Byard springing a brilliantly executed stride passage in the middle of something else, a convoluted single note solo played free of tempo. I laughed out loud in relief and delight, and Jackie Beyer craned his neck around to see where the laugh had come from, and seeing me or not seeing me, nodded and laughed loudly himself. I tell that story well. I tell it first of all because it's a story I enjoy telling, but I tell it also because it refutes or at least clarifies a statement made by Jackie Byard and often quoted. I don't play Alder styles. Tongue in cheek, he's often said. I think what he means is his intention is not satirical. Nothing is being mocked. I don't think he denies or would deny that the effect of his juxtapositions is contagiously humorous. Jackie Byard is a one man jazz repertory, catholic rather than eclectic. His style is no mere crazy quilt of unrelated references, but whole cloth. He's able to hear premonitions of bop and of the avant garde in the work of people like Fats Waller and James P. Johnson, and able to hear echoes of the old and the new. And most importantly, he's able to demonstrate this kind of insight in his solos. Francis Davis from a piece he wrote for fresh air in 1980, we asked our jazz historian, Kevin Whitehead, a friend of Francis, for his thoughts. Francis Davis and I both started writing about jazz around 1980, and he was one to watch and envy. From the first, he was a clear, vivid, funny writer with broad tastes, broad knowledge and strong opinions, such as only boring people like bass solos. In person as in print, he had an endearing, self deprecating sense of humor. Last time I was in touch with him, he cracked jokes about his deteriorating condition. He helped me along in my career once or twice, and as Fresh Air's first jazz critic, he showed how it was done. Pick clear musical examples and point out what to listen for. I repaid him by shamelessly stealing one of his best lines. Ornette Coleman as Charlie Parker's country cousin. I use that one all the time. Thank you, Francis. Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead remembering Francis Davis, who died on Monday. We're lucky that through Terry, Francis was a part of our lives all. Also, we'll miss him. We'll end today's show with a song from Kind of Blue, the album which won Francis a Grammy for the liner notes he wrote when it was reissued for its 50th anniversary.

[Terry Gross]

SA.

[Dave Davies]

Find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers recommendations for what to watch, read and listen. Subscribe to our free newsletter at. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challoner, Susan Yakundi and Anne Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show for Terry Gross and Tonya Moseley. I'm Dave Davies. These days there is a lot of news.

[Terry Gross]

It can be hard to keep up with what it means for you, your.

[Dave Davies]

Family and your community. Consider this from NPR is a podcast that helps you make sense of the news. Six days a week, we bring you.

[Terry Gross]

A deep dive on a story and.

[Dave Davies]

Provide the context, backstory and analysis you need to understand our rapidly changing world.

[Terry Gross]

Listen to the Consider this podcast from npr. Hey, it's A Martinez. Even as the host of a news show, it can be hard to keep up with the headlines. That is why we make the Upverse podcast. Every morning, in under 15 minutes, we cover three major stories with context and analysis from reporters around the world so you can catch up on lo que tapasando while getting ready, making desayuno or going to work. So listen to the upverse podcast from NPR.