Francis Spufford (3:00)

Thank you for having me.

Sam Brigger (3:02)

So I'm clearly not British, but I understand to some degree the foundational importance of the Blitz on modern British identity. But can you illuminate just how important important that history is, especially for Londoners?

Francis Spufford (3:16)

It's the epic moment in the history of London as a city. It comes in a heavily mythicized form with politicians invoking something called the Blitz spirit over the decades since, which is a kind of rather misleading image of total social consensus and kind of spontaneous mass virtue, which of course is very flattering if you're British. It's nice to think that amidst the complications and bits of shame and horror in our history, especially the imperial side of it, there should be one moment where we did the right thing. And I'm not cynical about this myself, I wonder at the series of accidents required for a white supremacist empire to teeter onto the side of the angels and to decide to oppose fascism. But we actually did.

Sam Brigger (4:12)

It's also a history that fewer and fewer people still alive today live through. Do you feel that it's shrinking in the minds of people there?

Francis Spufford (4:21)

Yes and no. The odd thing is that I was born in 1964, so 19 years after the end of the Second World War, and it had happened in my parents childhood and it was therefore by definition emotionally very remote me as a child. But that gap has seemed less significant as time has gone on and as the veterans, first of the First World War and then of the Second World War, start to die in Britain. Perversely, there has been more and more self conscious public commemoration of the war dead, Remembrance Sunday, which we do on the 11th of November every year. You know, it was a kind of dying and rather faded commemoration in my childhood and my 20s and my 30s. And now it's enormous.

Sam Brigger (5:09)

I'd like you to read a passage about Londoners trying to get through these bombings. This is fairly early in the Blitz.

Francis Spufford (5:18)

It is. It's the point where people are still being as surprised as we would be to find themselves being bombed nightly. For everyone in London, whether you lived through the night was therefore a matter of luck. The odds were long only 1 in 20,000 chances of being hit, said the papers. But still every bomb landed somewhere every night. For some people, the dice roll was going wrong. Instead of the whistle and crash rising to a peak of noise and then receding as the next bomb fell safely past you. There'd be a descending whistle that only grew louder, and then some unimaginable instant of violence and light and pain and dissolution. Each bomb might be that one. You couldn't know it wasn't till it hadn't fallen on you. And then, when you had survived another night of that, you tidied yourself up, put on your work clothes and stepped out. The hot, bright summer had become a hot, bright Indian summer, shorter days and cooler nights, but still a blaze of clear blue overhead. She walked up the King's Road to the Tube, past ruins still smouldering and holes in the ground where repair crews were already at work on mangled pip, and she felt the light revving up the engine of her organism beat, heart, breathe, lungs, hunger, stomach. Now, now, now, said her body. There was only a faint ache in her eyes looking at the bright and damaged world, an ache so permanent that after a while she started to think of it as the world itself, aching faintly all the time.

Sam Brigger (6:57)

Thank you for reading that. I just really love the contrast between the terror of the night and then, if you survive, the need to get up and just get about the day.

Francis Spufford (7:09)

That I think is one of the hardest things for us to imagine successfully, though it's probably easier if you're living in Tehran or Beirut at the moment. The idea that rather than some terrifying crisis after which there'd be probably PTSD and months of recovery and maybe some helpful 21st century therapy, you just go to work and you make your way over the broken glass. Discover if your office is still standing. If it is, you work from nine to five and then you leave hastily before it can get dark and the bombers can come back. Eat something and then make for the cupboard under the stairs, or the air raid shelter in your garden, or the basement of a department store or wherever it is that you're doing your best to shelter, and then do it again and again and again for 60 plus nights in a row. And I think that repetition and the way it changed people is one of the things that is most remote from us.

Sam Brigger (8:05)

You've professed your love for the C.S. lewis Narnia books, and in those books the children discover the land of Narnia because they're sent out of London in the country for safety during the war. Iris, your hero, will discover none such this fantasy land because of the war too. Did you think of your book Nonesuch as in conversation with the Narnia books?

Francis Spufford (8:32)

Exactly that. I was wanting to have a conversation with Lewis and with the other members of the Inklings, his writing circle, who, through the period of the war, were writing these cosmic thrillers motivated by, I think, a very similar sense that there was something unearthly about the ruined city, a way in which it seemed quite natural for people to be pushed to the familiar edges of their experience and then beyond it into something unearthly or magical. But also, I had a specific loving argument I wanted to have with CS Lewis because I am a devotee of the Narnia books I have been since I was a child. But because I love him, I'm allowed to be annoyed with him as well. And I wanted to pick up specifically the notoriously unfair bit at the end of the last Narnia book, in which the character Susan is not allowed to join in with the happy ending because, as it says, she's interested in nothing nowadays, but neither lipsticks and invitations. And ever since, people have been trying to find a kind of spiritual meaning for what Lewis had done there. And maybe there is one, but there's also, I think, very clearly a kind of bachelor incomprehension or even distaste for the lives of young women. So I knew that I wanted to write a fantasy set then which very deliberately had as its protagonist finding her way into wonder, somebody who was really strongly in favor of nylons, lipsticks and invitations and everything they represent. Although my protagonist Iris, would prefer silk if she can get her hands on it.

Sam Brigger (10:11)

In your book, and this is your phrase, magical time traveling fascists want to go back in time and murder Winston Churchill before he shores up Britain's will to fight the Nazis. Iris even walks by this house in Chelsea where she lives. It's the headquarters of the British fascists, which was actually a place. Can you talk a bit about the sympathies that the upper class of Britain had for the Nazis? During that time?

Francis Spufford (10:38)

There was a distinct kind of vein of pro fascist sentiment in the British upper classes, partly because, as in other bits of Europe, Germany, Italy, the Great Depression had shook people's faith that that kind of liberal democracy could do the business and cure the ills of the present day. But also because they liked order and hierarchy and they could see those things disappearing in the modern world. Again. One of the strange things to get your head around is that for the first nine months of the Second World War, British fascists were operating completely unimpeded. They were running candidates in special elections on a peace platform, thought the war was a terrible misunderstanding of Hitler's good intentions. And that it was probably caused by evil Jewish plutocrats, of course, and they were there offering what seemed to them and to defeated and disheartened people beyond the actual fascist organization as the future, the inevitable thing that would happen when Europe went fascist. And I give Iris a sense of visceral horror, which I think is completely deserved. Watching these people with their big signs saying fascism is practical. Patriotism and Fascism for King and Empire and peace now active at the very moment where a fascist army are kind of rolling westwards and look very much as if they're going to conquer Britain too. It is local evil to go with global evil.

Sam Brigger (12:20)

You know, this is a time of rising authoritarianism in many countries. Was that on your mind when you were writing Nonsuch?

Francis Spufford (12:28)

Yes, I did become very aware the moment of this book aligns itself, overlaps with the moment we're having now, and that the dangers of that time are kind of a warning about the dangers of this time, and that there should be something really sobering about what a close thing it was that the world did, in the end, decide to resist fascism, that there was just the right balance of opinion in Britain to just push it over to going, actually stuff the British Empire. This is too important. We'll bankrupt ourselves to fight fascism.

Sam Brigger (13:08)

Let's talk about your hero, Iris Hawkins. Like other female characters in your books, Iris is coming up against the social constraints for the women of her time. And at this period, working women like her are relegated to the secretarial pools of London brokerages. Even though she wants to be like a player in the world of finance, she also enjoys casual sex, but has to be careful not to have that tarnish her reputation. There's an obvious double standard there. In order to rent an apartment, she has to pretend to be married to a soldier serving abroad because no one will rent to a, quote, tart. She's a really great character. You dedicated Nonsuch to your grandmother, Nancy, and under the dedication you wrote, quote, not entirely a good girl. And in your afterword you said that, like Iris, she, quote, came from Watford and she was, as Iris would say, of an adventurous disposition. But Iris isn't her. Of course, you are pointing out the connections between Iris and your grandmother. None of we didn't need to know any of those.

Francis Spufford (14:13)

So.

Sam Brigger (14:13)

So how was she an inspiration for Iris?

Francis Spufford (14:17)

My intentions here are celebratory. And she is safely dead. She died at 99 and a half. 15 years ago. There was a particular moment. My grandmother was a resilient person who was, on the whole, hopeless at storytelling about her life. So you only ever got very small glimpses of what she had done in the past. And there was a moment at the beginning of this century when she was in her vigorous early 90s, when she and I went to the oldest Indian restaurant in England. And we, we sat down, she looked around and she said, I was last here in about 1935. It hasn't changed much. And then she said, with no prompting at all, I always preferred going out with married men because they've always spent so much more money on you. And then she clammed up instantly. This, this door opened on the, on the other side of it, this clearly, completely unregretted kind of good time she'd had being a bad girl. And then it slammed shut again and I could not get her to talk any more about it. She just smiled and looked mysterious. So Iris is in some ways my attempt to imagine my way into that world, but I didn't have much to go on. So Iris is a creation, not a copy.

Sam Brigger (15:30)

Were you able to discover anything more about your grandmother's adventures?

Francis Spufford (15:34)

Hers happened in the early 30s. She was busy being a parent, having run off with Mr. Spufford, who all her brothers hated. But later on she worked for a medical charity which brought distinguished and rather attractive doctors from all over the world. And at her funeral, my father, who loved his mother and was very proud of her, had to be prevented from reading aloud a list of the distinguished lovers that he deduced she had. I know, I know, but you know, it was a funeral, maybe the mood would have been wrong. So I didn't have much to go on. And I am aware of the difficulties of doing this as a male writer. And it seems to me that the way to cross the distance between me and someone like Iris is to really commit to her viewpoint. So the book never ever lets you know what she looks like, for example. So she is never the object of the book's attention. She is always the subject, the person who is looking at the world and, and liking what she sees. There are a number of detailed descriptions of the male bodies she looks at, but none of her own. And I wanted somebody who genuinely had the freedom to be unlikable at times and complicated and genuinely self centered, not a secretly kind hearted person merely posing as assertive, but somebody who was determined enough to get what they want that they could be quite manipulative.

Sam Brigger (16:58)

So you have some sex scenes in your book. And as I said, Iris likes sex but is afraid of intimacy. And when despite herself, that intimacy grows between her And Jeff, those sex scenes have a different weight to them. Can you talk about that?

Francis Spufford (17:17)

I think she discovers that you can be a lot more naked than just taking your clothes off if the emotional stakes are higher and if you are constantly aware that the other person is as. Is as real as you are. She and Jeff are in bed together within the first 30 pages of the book because she fancies him and it's a one night stand she had no intention of it ever resuming. When it does resume, it's very different indeed. And she is terrified to begin with because sex with that kind of depth of unprotected. And I'm not just talking about contraception, but unprotected mutual knowledge is a very different thing. It has the potential to transform, it has the potential to wound. It has as much danger as bliss in it. But she is, although not an entirely nice person, definitely a brave one. So she is up for the danger and she is up for the chance of being hopelessly changed by the unscheduled experience of love.

Sam Brigger (18:23)

Since your book takes place in England, class is an issue. And Iris is middle class and her radar is highly attuned to class distinction. In an early scene she introduces herself to some people that she's very aware are of an upper class than her. And I'm just going to read this. Hello, said Iris, Iris Hawkins, and heard Watford unmistakably in her own vowels, as if she had whole avenues of prosperous but not posh suburbia to tucked away in there and the girls grammar school and the future she hadn't wanted in which a good girl could hope for a nice young man with prospects in the building trade or a solicitor's office, that world lost but refusing to be gone, inexorably following her around and speaking out of her mouth. So can you tell us a little bit more about what it means in this time to have a Watford accent?

Francis Spufford (19:18)

Watford is part of the ring of outer suburbs around London. It doesn't have especially stigmatizing accent. She's not poor, she's not working class. She is prosperous, suburban, lower middle class. These are distinctions that mean something in in England. And she doesn't sound classy until she remakes herself. By the end, she is indistinguishable from the people she wishes to impress.

Sam Brigger (19:43)

Do regional accents still exist to the degree that they did back then? And do they still signify in such a strong way?

Francis Spufford (19:51)

They've got homogenized much more. There are still very strongly marked regional accents from other big cities. And there are identifiable country accents which you could pick out the way that a voice from the Deep south can be picked out. But these are no longer all straightforwardly subordinate accents to a posh BBC voice like the one I am speaking to you in now, because that's how I learned to speak at school in the 19th century, 60s and 70s. The BBC itself has spent 20 or 30 years very deliberately recruiting those accents and adding them to what the official voice of British radio and television sound like. So you no longer feel the way that Iris would have done in 1939-40, that the whole of broadcasting is conducted by people who sound rather like this. And if you sound rather like this, then you know that it's not your voice which is coming out of the bloody radio. So that has changed. We are a more socially mobile society than we used to, and our kind of social signifiers have slipped and switched around as well.

Sam Brigger (20:58)

Our guest is author Francis Bufford. His newest book is None Such. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Sam Brigger, and this is FRESH air.

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Sam Brigger (21:38)

So, Frances, your book Cahokia Jazz imagines United States where the indigenous population was not decimated by disease carried across the Atlantic by Europeans. So along the east of the Mississippi, there's this self governed indigenous nation state called Cahokia. Why did you choose that area of the United States as a location for the city?

Francis Spufford (22:05)

Because there is the real archaeological site of Cahokia just opposite St. Louis on the eastern bank of the river, which is one of the world's wonders. And it astonishes me that not as many Americans as you'd think know about this thing. It's got the largest pyramid north of the Maya ruins of Central America in it. It was a city, possibly bigger than London or Paris in the 12th century, deserted again later for reasons that archaeologists are busily arguing about. And I think this is one of those things where there's an advantage of being an outsider. I am not a Native American and I'm not a white American either, or an African American. I am looking, I hope, fondly and intelligently from from way over Here. And I wanted to kind of question the strange obviousness that is granted to the absence of big populations of Native Americans in US History. If you. If you look at the history of any particular state, they make a brief appearance in, you know, kind of 1790, 18, 20, 1835. And as you. As you go westward, it gets a bit later, there is an Indian war, and then they're effectively gone from the history of what follows. And I thought, you know, what if they weren't gone? What if the United States, like Mexico, was necessarily a country which was a kind of much more active hybridization of Native American and European? What if it was an unavoidable presence? And the way to do it was in alternative history because it's great for world building. And the way to do the alternative history, because it's great for that, is as a crime novel, because a detective who can go and ask questions of anybody is a fabulous way to explore a world.

Sam Brigger (23:54)

The. The main character, Joe, is a policeman, but he's also an excellent jazz pianist, and he can't decide if he should give up police work to dedicate his life to jazz. Was there a particular pianist from the time that you based what you thought his playing would be like on?

Francis Spufford (24:09)

He's a mixture of Jelly Roll Morton and James P. Johnson, who wrote the Charleston. It's a great time for jazz. Probably I'm showing my prejudices here, but it's late enough that you've got fabulous soloists and individual vision coming into it, and it's still early enough that you can dance to almost all of it. And jazz is the great American fusion music. It's the thing where the. As W.E.B. dubois says, the weight and tragedy of. Of African American history is. Is converted as a kind of gift of lightness and joy to. To. To the rest of American history. And I wanted Joe Barrow, my. My. My detective, to be a thwarted jazz pianist because I wanted him to be expressing the difficulty and the joys of the great American mixture.

Sam Brigger (25:02)

So earlier we talked about writing sex scenes, and I found that there are a lot of similarities between bad writing about sex and bad writing about characters playing music. People tend to fall into the same traps of either focusing too much on mechanics, if you will, or, on the other hand, like something so metaphoric that it's disembodied. In Cahokia jazz, you have a really good scene of. Of some jazz musicians playing together. And I just wanted if you would read this. This is a scene where Joe the policeman has been invited up to play with his former bandmates that are led by Dolphus Henderson, a clarinetist. Right?

Francis Spufford (25:40)

Yeah.

Sam Brigger (25:40)

And they play Kansas City Stomp.

Francis Spufford (25:42)

They do. I'll leave this as a kind of exercise for the listener, whether you think this counts as bad music, like bad sex. The opening was a lineup of separate calls. Dee doo dee doo de. Dollfuss wailed, Stukely honked, he jangled and Dutch dumbadoomba'd and then all in together for the brass annunciatory blare of the tune, Willie doing the flat footed beat of the stomp underneath, Dollfuss and Stukely jousting he and Dutch. Mainly rhythm at this point, but the way the stomp worked for a band was chorus and then solo chorus and then solo for each of the players in turn as many times as you liked through the chorus. And Dollfuss nodded him in first, the whole thing back in his two hands, taking the tune bold but plain this first time round with nothing but the stomp beat underneath from Willie till Dollfuss came back in over the top with a noodling moan and they all restated the tune together. Then Dolfus himself of course, making the clarinet sob and sing an almost squeak. And then Stukely neck inflated like a bullfrog, squeezing out sweet and golden statements from the cornet. Then Dutch thunderous plucking and slapping and around again by common consent, a little faster this time.

Sam Brigger (27:02)

So I just like that because it's not taking itself too seriously. There's like a joyousness of the way you're describing it. There's squeaks and slaps and honks. I don't know. Did you find that hard to write?

Francis Spufford (27:14)

Yes, because I don't play any of those musical instruments. I'm a listener, not a musician. And I am the least musical member of an extended family. So to imagine myself inside the kind of the good communication of a jazz band working in sync, I had to borrow the expertise of my wife and my brothers in law and my mother in law and listen very, very carefully and say, does this sound right to them?

Sam Brigger (27:46)

We need to take a short break here. Our guest is author Francis Bufford. His newest book is None Such. More after a break. This is FRESH air.

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Sam Brigger (28:25)

Frances, you grew up in a university town. Both of your parents were historians, and I think both taught at the University of Kiel. You had a younger sister who was born with a genetic disorder, cystinosis, that she died from at the age of 22. And it sounds like your parents, unsurprisingly, were very occupied in your childhood with her care and really trying to save her. But as her sibling, I'm guessing you were perhaps benignly neglected. Understandably so.

Francis Spufford (29:02)

I wouldn't put it quite like that. They tried their damnedest. They were. They were very aware of exactly the danger of me being benignly neglected. But it had the perverse consequence that I think I spent my childhood feeling I needed to reassure them that I was fine, which was emotionally laborious in itself. So I was very glad to head off into books as a series of doors out from emotional intensity.

Sam Brigger (29:30)

Right. You said that reading was your escape. You actually have a memoir called the Child that Books Built, and you especially enjoyed fantasy by Tolkien and C.S. lewis. So what was your reading behavior like? Were you the kind of reader that would read over everything else, like doing your schoolwork, seeing friends, eating?

Francis Spufford (29:48)

Yeah. And remained so for some time, although the existence of the iPhone has kind of sabotaged deep immersion now. I was the kind of reader as a child where people had to shout in my ears when it was mealtime to get me to come back and pay attention to the soundtrack of the real world. Very deep immersion with something. I think a bit driven about it. I'm not sorry that I've lost the capacity to go that far away, though. I wish I could swim in whole reservoirs of novels rather than coming up to check my email every half an

Sam Brigger (30:23)

hour or so in that memoir you write. Still, when I reach for a book, I am reaching for an equilibrium. I am reading to banish pity and brittle bones. I am reading to evade guilt and avoid consequences. That made me think of your sister. And I was wondering if you feel survivor's guilt over her death or even when she was living. Did you feel some guilt because of your healthiness?

Francis Spufford (30:51)

Yes, I did, is the short answer. The way I dealt with it was to behave as if it was a kind of law of the universe that I was fine. So I didn't let myself think it's not fair that I should live and she shouldn't. But at the same time, I felt overwhelmed by the scale of what would have been the right kind of order, of compassion. So I think I showed less of it than I should have done. And yeah, there's guilt in that now. And I didn't know her as well as I could have because I was so aware of her as a. As a kind of potentially pitiable person. Whereas in fact, she was a funny and rather peppery and witty person as described by other people. And I kind of missed that because I was in Narnia and because I was going, no, no, I can't look, it's too awful. I miss her very much. I Wish now, at 61, I had a 58 year old sister who had passed through all of these decades with me and who I could compare notes with, but I don't. I haven't seen her for. Oh, Lord, it's 35 years now. But I think of her often.

Sam Brigger (32:10)

We haven't spoken about your novel Light Perpetual, but that imagines what would have been the lives of five children who were actually killed by a bomb during the Blitz. And I was wondering if in that book, although she's not a character, whether you were also imagining what your sister's life would have been like if she

Francis Spufford (32:31)

had lived in an indirect way. Yes, absolutely. Someone can be a presence without being a character. And once the shock of somebody dying young is over, I think the sorrow of it settles in around all of the things that they're then missing and all of the stages of life that they don't get to go through. There were some reviews of like Perpetual saying, you know, the children who die in the first chapter and then get given a kind of ambiguous literary resurrection. People were complaining that they didn't have remarkable lives and they grew old and died anyway. And I thought, yes, but that's the prize. What you want is to grow old and die. Anyway, going back to what I said in the memoir about reading to banish pity, that changes. And I don't read to banish pity anymore. I didn't write to banish pity either. I write to try and find concrete and fully felt ways to give pity a place to live and endure. In some ways, I suppose I'm trying to make up for looking away in those early years. I'm trying to look straight at these days.

Sam Brigger (33:46)

You have another nonfiction book called why Despite Everything, Christianity Can Still Make Surprising Emotional Sense, which to me is a funny subtitle because it sounds like it's apologizing a little bit there already. But anyway, this is a somewhat salty. I don't know if you like the word defense of your Christianity, but You said as a young man you were an atheist. You, even though your wife became a reverend, but that you did something bad in your marriage. You don't get into it. We don't need to know what it was. But you and your wife were miserable. And one morning you went to a cafe and heard Mozart's Clarinet Concerto, the Adagia movement, and you were transformed. This was the moment of the rebirth of your faith. Let's hear a little bit of that movement. And this is a version from the Berlin Philharmonic with the clarinet of Sabine Meyer. Sa. Sam. That was the Clarinet Concerto, the music that our guest Francis Spofford heard that converted him to Christianity. You know, that's a lovely piece of music to my ears. It's not particularly sacred. So how do you get from that music to becoming a believer?

Francis Spufford (36:22)

Well, I'm gonna steal some words here from the novelist Richard Powers, who described that movement as what mercy would sound like. And although I didn't get to that kind of way of describing it for a long time after, that's what it felt like in the moment. It felt like an announcement of a completely unillusioned kind. No self deception, no cheery, misleading optimism. Something that all of the kind of possible darknesses and mess of the human condition acknowledged. And yet, it said, and yet there is also this to consider as well. There is this. This undestroyed, merciful sound rising up out of the confusions of the. Of the world. And you are, in fact deceiving yourself more. It said to me, if you don't reckon for the existence of. Of this as well, I wouldn't say that, you know, three minutes of Mozart and I was. I was a Christian again. But on the other hand, it. It was what started a process in which I thought a world with mercy in it. Where would I go and look for some more of that? At what address? And gradually got from there to a sense that the Christian story was the richest and deepest and again least illusioned story of human beings that I could find and had the best fit with my experience.

Sam Brigger (37:46)

Where are you on the scale of belief in the tenets of Christianity?

Francis Spufford (37:51)

I don't always manage it, but I'm a pretty solid kind of creedal Christian. I believe in the resurrection. I believe in miracles. I believe in the strangeness and convincingness of what traditional Christianity has got at its heart. I'm a rather liberal Christian in American terms, but nevertheless, that's what there is there to be believed, and that's what I try my best to believe.

Sam Brigger (38:18)

It's probably helpful to have your wife be a reverend to.

Francis Spufford (38:21)

It is people ask me who my favorite theologian is, and I only have to look across the breakfast table. She's a very, very good preacher, but she wasn't the spurt for me to write that book. That book is of a particular date and time. Right. You called it Salty by, which is a nice way of saying it's got a lot of swearing in it. And it was written in 2010 around the kind of absolute apex of the new atheist movement, which you have to understand landed a bit differently in England than it did in the United States. In England, Christianity very much a minority pursuit. So we do not have the sense of it as this overbearing and sometimes alarming monolith that might be forcing other people into mouthing words they don't they don't want to say. It's not a book that tries to convince people it's a or convert people. It's a book that merely wants you to notice that Christian faith is this highly recognizable thing that humans do which answers to universal human needs. And you may not think it's a good answer, but it's not just a fairy tale out of the air by which people deceive themselves. It's one of the world's answers to the big stuff.

Sam Brigger (39:35)

Well, Francis Bufford, I want to thank you so much for talking with me today.

Francis Spufford (39:39)

Thank you for having me.

Terry Gross (39:41)

Francis Bufford's new novel is called Nonsuch. He spoke with our executive producer Sam Brigger. After we take a short break, TV critic David Biancooli will review the new movie sequel to the TV series Peaky Blinders. This is FRESH air.

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Terry Gross (40:28)

Peaky Blinders was a British series that premiered in 2013 and ran for nearly 10 years. It starred Cillian Murphy long before he won an Oscar for starring in the movie Oppenheimer. In the series, he played Tommy Shelby, an urban youth gang leader in Birmingham who rose to political power in the early 20th century despite a poor background. The series, created by Stephen Knight, developed a strong following and now is back with a movie length sequel and with Murphy returning to star. The new entry Peaky the Immortal man, already opened in theaters and will be available on Netflix this Friday. Our TV critic David Biancooli has this review.

David Biancolli (41:12)

During his decade on the BBC period drama Peaky Blinders, Killian Murphy matured visibly as a man and also as an actor. Stephen Knight wrote such a challenging and nuanced role for him as gangster Tommy Shelby that it wasn't surprising at all that when the series concluded, Murphy was tapped to star as J. Robert Oppenheimer by Christopher Nolan. It also wasn't surprising if you'd devoured all six seasons of Peaky Blinders, that Murphy would be not only willing but eager to revisit the character of Tommy Shelby one last time, especially when the script is written by Knight and brings the story to a dramatic conclusion. The drama in the Immortal man is provided by both personal and historical challenges. We last saw Tommy Shelby in the final episode of Peaky blinders. In the 1930s, prohibition had been repealed in the U.S. the Nazi Party was rising in Germany, and Tommy's volatile brother Arthur was about to die. The movie Peaky Blinders, the Immortal man, jumps ahead to November 1940, when England already is at war with Germany. A munitions factory staffed by women in Birmingham, Tommy's hometown, is bombed by aerial strikes from the Nazis and claims more than 100 victims. Tommy has long since secluded himself far away, isolated in a remote farmhouse haunted by wartime memories and what he fears are family ghosts. But the bombing brings a visit from his sister Ada, played by Sophie Rundle. She informs him not only of the devastation to Birmingham, but the fact that his estranged son has taken control of his old gang, the Peaky Blinders, and is making new and dangerous moves and alliances.

Terry Gross (43:01)

Tommy, you've got to come back with

Francis Spufford (43:03)

me, speak some words over the graves of the dead and speak to your son before he gets himself hung by the law or lynched by the people.

Sam Brigger (43:13)

Ada, I see things.

Terry Gross (43:22)

Yeah, you always did.

Francis Spufford (43:26)

But since Arthur died.

Sam Brigger (43:28)

Since Arthur died. Since Arthur died. It's like a door on me head. It's blown open. I can't close it.

David Biancolli (43:43)

Tommy would prefer to stay distant and uninvolved, but the recklessness of his son, Duke, played by Barry Keoghan, leaves him little choice. Duke meets with Beckett, a British Nazi sympathizer played by Tim Roth, who finds in Duke an important and agreeable collaborator. Their meeting begins with Beckett handing Duke a British pound note.

Francis Spufford (44:07)

Yeah, you can keep that freshly printed counterfeit five pound note. There's plenty more where that came from. How much more, £350 million more. It's my job to introduce the money into the British economy using organised criminal gangs. So Peaky blinders gets a 20% cut. That's £70 million to use as you see fit. But be ready for the anarchy that comes after. I'm ready. Yep. Obviously, Berlin would much prefer it if

David Biancolli (44:50)

I was talking to your father once that's in play. Very early on, Tommy Shelby finds himself having to take sides and do battle, either defending or betraying his own country and either saving or opposing his own son. The stakes couldn't be much higher or, in writer Steven Knight's hands, more unpredictable or gripping. He always populates his dramas with terrific actors and vibrant characters. And in the Immortal man, we get delightful return visits from, among others, Peaky Blinders series players Rebecca Ferguson, Stephen Graham and Paki Lee. And most of all, we get Knight's brilliant approach to his period dramas, the way he folds the fictional and the factual. He's done it so well so many times for so many outstanding TV series, and I've given rave reviews to most of them. A Thousand Blows, the Veil, House of Guinness, all the Light We Cannot See, and some that eluded me at the time, but which I've caught up with and have been delighted by, like Taboo from 2017, which featured great early performances by both Tom Hardy and Jessie Buckley, who just won a Best actress Oscar for Hamnet. You can watch the Immortal man all by itself, but if you're uninitiated in what's come before, you shouldn't. All six seasons of Peaky Blinders are available on Netflix and there are only six episodes per season. So even if you start from the beginning, you'll get to this new movie sequel before you know it. Like any good Steven Knight drama, and they're all good, Peaky Blinders is addictive, easy to consume and impossible to forget.

Terry Gross (46:36)

David Biancooli reviewed the new film Peaky Blinders, the Immortal Man. It starts streaming on Netflix Friday. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, our guest will be Grammy winning singer Jill Scott. She's releasing her first full length album in more than a decade. She'll talk about growing up in Philadelphia, breaking through with the Neo soul movement and building a career that spans music, film and tv. I hope you'll join us.

David Biancolli (47:10)

I wanted you to be mine

Francis Spufford (47:16)

in the daytime as well as the night.

Terry Gross (47:22)

To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram P R FRESH air Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger, our senior producer today is Theresa Madden. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Annmarie Boldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly Sivinesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gross.

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