Fresh Air Episode Summary: "The Former Jihadist Trying To Remake Syria"
Release Date: March 27, 2025
Host: Terry Gross
Guest: Robert Wirth, Contributing Writer at The Atlantic
Introduction
In this episode of NPR's Fresh Air, host Terry Gross engages in a profound conversation with Robert Wirth, a seasoned reporter for The Atlantic. Wirth discusses his insightful article titled "Can One Man Hold Syria Together? A Former Jihadist Has Remade Himself in a Bid to Remake a Scarred and Divided Country." The focus centers on Ahmad al Sharra, Syria's transitional president, a former jihadist striving to stabilize a nation ravaged by over fourteen years of civil war.
Accidental Inclusion of Jeffrey Goldberg in US National Security Chat
Timestamp: [00:16]
Terry Gross begins by referencing a recent incident where journalist Jeffrey Goldberg was inadvertently added to a group chat among US national security leaders discussing plans to attack the Houthis in Yemen. This slip-up inadvertently increased public awareness about the Houthis.
Terry Gross:
"The unintentional inclusion of journalist Jeffrey Goldberg in the messaging app group chat of US national security leaders outlining US Plans to attack the Houthis in Yemen has certainly increased awareness of who the Houthis are."
[00:16]
Robert Wirth's Reaction:
Wirth expresses astonishment at the breach, highlighting the improbability of such sensitive information leaking inadvertently.
Robert Wirth:
"The notion that they would put this incredibly sensitive information before the actual attack onto a child like this and not even notice that someone else was on there was just beyond belief."
[02:23]
Understanding the Houthis and US-European Tensions
Timestamp: [03:08] - [05:53]
The discussion delves into the Houthis' actions, particularly their attacks on shipping in the Red Sea and the Suez Canal, disrupting global commerce.
Robert Wirth:
"They started doing it, I think, in October or November, shortly after October 7th, in the name of, you know, defending the Palestinians or defending Gaza. But it inflicted incredibly disproportionate damage."
[03:38]
Wirth critiques the US administration's rationale for targeting the Houthis, suggesting it was framed more as a favor to European allies than addressing a genuine national threat.
Robert Wirth:
"It was strange to me, kind of prorating of a threat that's really a global threat. And they were saying, well, if anybody benefits more from this than we do, they need to pay us for that."
[05:10]
He further explains Europe's significant stake in Middle Eastern shipping lanes due to geographical proximity and economic interests.
Ahmad al Sharra: From Jihadist to Transitional President
Timestamp: [11:15] - [19:03]
Wirth provides an in-depth background of Ahmad al Sharra, tracing his transformation from a studious and initially unassuming youth in Damascus to a radicalized jihadist leader.
Robert Wirth:
"He read the politics of the region. He's very, very politically astute. I think it's pretty certain that he does not want to lead this country in a jihadist direction."
[11:36]
Sharra's strategic alliances and shifts are highlighted, showcasing his ability to adapt by aligning with various groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda before ultimately distancing himself to pursue a more pragmatic leadership approach.
Robert Wirth:
"He was more astute than Baghdadi. He saw that there was no future in this caliphate, that it was going to get destroyed by American bombs. And sure enough, it was."
[15:17]
Sharra's efforts to maintain peace, foster unity among Syria's diverse ethnic and religious groups, and prevent revenge killings are central to his leadership strategy.
Efforts to Moderate and Stabilize Syria
Timestamp: [18:46] - [25:14]
Wirth discusses Sharra's initiatives to curb violence and build trust among Syria's fragmented communities. Sharra has reached out to minorities, including Christians, Alawites, and Druze, emphasizing his commitment to inclusivity.
Robert Wirth:
"He reached out to Syria's minorities, who are obviously the people who are most anxious about their status in this new Islamic Syria. He's been talking to the Christian community, the Alawite community, the Druze, and others, and he has tried hard to send the right signals to the West."
[21:40]
However, challenges persist as militias with less disciplined members engage in revenge killings, undermining Sharra's efforts to establish order.
Robert Wirth:
"A lot of them seem to be from these militias that are at the outer rings of Sharad's coalition, the people who are much less disciplined, the people who essentially were criminals probably before."
[24:06]
International Reactions and Geopolitical Implications
Timestamp: [38:04] - [42:18]
The conversation shifts to the international response to Sharra's leadership. The Trump administration initially distrusted Sharra due to his Islamist background but has recently signaled willingness to lift sanctions contingent on his cooperation, including assisting in the search for kidnapped American photographer Austin Tice.
Robert Wirth:
"They have made pretty clear that they, at least initially, they distrusted him. They were very skeptical of him because he was an Islamist."
[39:02]
Israel remains wary of Sharra's government despite Syria's apparent disengagement from Iran.
Robert Wirth:
"The Israeli government seems to be very skeptical, very distrustful. They took advantage very quickly the opportunity to do hundreds of airstrikes across Syria to get rid of the remnants of the weapons that the Assad regime had."
[40:13]
Robert Wirth's On-the-Ground Experiences in Syria
Timestamp: [25:53] - [36:00]
Wirth recounts his firsthand experiences in Syria, including encounters with Sharra's militias and witnessing the remnants of the Assad regime's oppressive surveillance apparatus.
Robert Wirth:
"I saw a room that looked to him like a barbershop because it had these chairs with mirrors and this whole array of, you know, I mean, it sounds almost like the back of a theater."
[26:15]
He also describes riding with armed militants on a mission to destroy drugs that were a primary revenue source for the Assad regime.
Robert Wirth:
"So we jumped in... They profited from death, from drugs, and we're gonna do the opposite."
[36:00]
Challenges in Governance and Security
Timestamp: [24:23] - [30:01]
Sharra's decision to abolish the Syrian police force post-Assad created a security vacuum, exacerbating tensions and enabling militia violence. While Sharra has attempted to institute committees to investigate massacres, skepticism remains about his ability to fully control and reform the security apparatus.
Robert Wirth:
"One of the things I think Sharad did wrong was that he abolished the entire Syrian police force right after he took power in December."
[24:23]
Signs of Radicalization and Sectarian Tensions
Timestamp: [32:05] - [35:56]
Despite Sharra's moderation efforts, remnants of radical Islam persist. Wirth encountered groups disseminating sectarian messages through songs and recitations, highlighting ongoing religious tensions.
Robert Wirth:
"They will liberate Tartus... we will slaughter the Majus."
[32:05]
These actions fuel fear among minority communities, undermining trust in Sharra's promises of a tolerant society.
Economic Rebuilding and International Aid
Timestamp: [36:37] - [38:04]
Syria's dire economic conditions necessitate substantial international aid for reconstruction. Sharra has advocated for the lifting of sanctions, arguing that sanctions were originally imposed on the now-defunct Assad regime.
Robert Wirth:
"He's got a pretty good argument there. And I should say the Europeans have removed a lot of sanctions."
[38:04]
Conclusion and Future Outlook
Timestamp: [42:25] - [43:57]
Wirth reflects on Syria's potential for renewal juxtaposed with the deep-seated fears and mistrust among its populace. While Sharra has made commendable strides in unifying the country and signaling a break from the past, significant obstacles remain, including entrenched sectarian divisions and the challenge of building effective governance structures.
Robert Wirth:
"The Assad regime wanted to keep people divided in order to, you know, keep them afraid of each other. And that helped them, as they saw it, to run the country. Well, all that's come down now."
[42:25]
Wirth emphasizes the fragile nature of Syria's current stability and the critical role Sharra plays in navigating the nation's path forward.
Key Takeaways
-
Ahmad al Sharra's Transformation: From a former jihadist leader to Syria's transitional president, aiming to rebuild and stabilize the nation.
-
Challenges of Governance: Balancing disciplined governance with controlling less disciplined militia factions remains a significant hurdle.
-
International Dynamics: The shifting stance of global powers, particularly the US and Israel, plays a crucial role in Syria's future.
-
Sectarian Tensions: Persistent religious and ethnic divisions pose ongoing threats to national unity and peace.
Notable Quotes:
-
Terry Gross:
"What's your reaction to this Goldberg story, not to the transcript, but to his inclusion in this and what that says?"
[00:16] -
Robert Wirth:
"I think Shara understands is that he has to rebuild the country no matter what he wants to do in the future. He may well take a stronger stance against Israel at some point, but for the moment, he has to keep the country together just in order to get the economy going again."
[14:43] -
Robert Wirth:
"Sharra, first of all, tried very hard to avoid revenge killings, reprisals, as his forces were moving from Idlib down to... Towards the capital."
[18:46]
Further Resources:
To read Robert Wirth's full article, "Can One Man Hold Syria Together? A Former Jihadist Has Remade Himself in a Bid to Remake a Scarred and Divided Country," visit The Atlantic website.
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