Podcast Summary: Fresh Air – "The Future Of Free And Fair Elections"
Aired: September 10, 2025
Host: Tonya Moseley | Guest: Richard Hasen (Professor of Law & Political Science, UCLA; Director, Safeguarding Democracy Project)

Overview

In this episode, Tonya Moseley interviews Richard Hasen, a prominent election law scholar, about escalating threats to U.S. election integrity ahead of the 2026 midterms. They discuss recent moves by the Justice Department to build a national voter roll, President Trump’s proposals to ban mail-in ballots and voting machines, the risks of executive overreach, the potential dismantling of the Voting Rights Act, and how the architecture of American democracy both complicates and safeguards free and fair elections. The tone is urgent but measured, with Hasen offering both detailed analysis and historical context.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Decentralization of U.S. Elections

• American elections are highly decentralized—unlike other democracies, there is no national nonpartisan authority (02:24).
  • “In most other democracies, there's a national nonpartisan authority that runs elections... In the United States, we have the opposite. We have a hyper decentralized system.” – Hasen (02:24)
• Most elections are run at the county level, with varying rules and technologies.

2. Justice Department’s Voter Data Requests

• The DOJ is asking states for sensitive voter data (like Social Security numbers and driver’s license info) to check for illegal voting by undocumented immigrants (02:01).
• Legal disputes are already arising, with some registrars refusing full compliance for privacy reasons (03:34).
  • “You may see battles in court ... particularly Republican states that are probably now going to be willing to turn this over, even though during the first Trump administration there was a lot of resistance, even from Republicans.” – Hasen (03:34)
• Historically, both parties valued decentralization to limit the power of the federal government over elections.

3. Trump’s Proposals: Banning Mail-In Ballots and Voting Machines

• Trump has called for abolishing mail-in ballots and voting machines, claiming inaccuracy and expense (05:02).
• Reality check: The President does not have the constitutional authority to unilaterally change how Americans vote (06:13).
  • “The President’s tweet, or truth ... that's not a royal edict. It's not as though Trump is a king...” – Hasen (05:41)
  • “Article 1, Section 4 ... says that states can set the manner for the conduct of congressional elections subject to Congress's override. The President has no role in any of this.” – Hasen (06:13)
• Fraud Claims: Studies show mail-in ballot fraud is rare and not at a scale to impact national outcomes.
  • “There's very little election fraud in the United States... When it does happen, it's often election officials who are committing fraud, not voters.” – Hasen (07:18)
• There are built-in safeguards to prevent and detect fraud at scale (08:48).

4. The Roles—and Limitations—of State Officials

• Secretaries of State, county boards often have partisan alignment, which can sway actions in close contests (09:13).
  • “Most people ... have an allegiance to make sure that this count is accurate, ... but ... you might in a close case be swayed ... by what would be in the interest of your party.” – Hasen (09:37)

5. Concerns About Centralization and the Shift in Perspective

• Hasen once supported a national nonpartisan system but now favors decentralization, citing the risk of presidential overreach in a democracy weakened by eroded norms (10:54).
  • “So much of the restraint ... was not legally compelled ... but a matter of norms, and Trump’s willing to bust those norms.” – Hasen (10:54)

6. Martial Law, Canceling Elections, and Constitutional Limits

• While Presidents have no authority to delay or cancel elections, misuse of power (National Guard deployment, national emergency declarations) could disrupt voting (12:31).
  • “The president has no power to do anything related to elections, much less cancel them…” – Hasen (12:31)
• Hostile federal interventions could suppress turnout or create confusion (13:37).

7. Historical Precedent and The Power of Narrative

• Even during the Civil War, federal elections were held (14:38).
• Spread of uncertainty and threats, even if not enacted, have always been used to demobilize voters (15:47).
  • “Just the publicity of saying you're going to do this stuff can deter people from voting and can be demobilizing.” – Hasen (15:47)

8. Impact of Disinformation and Foreign Interference

• Misinformation/disinformation is a major threat, heightened by loosened cybersecurity and intelligence controls (18:04).
• Actual tampering with machines or rolls is difficult and would likely be detected quickly.
  • “Our voting machines are pretty secure ... It's much more likely that we'll see influence campaigns to try to influence how Americans vote.” – Hasen (17:51, 20:03)

9. Gerrymandering and Redistricting Battles

• Redistricting after the census is a state-driven process, often manipulated for partisan advantage (22:50).
• Recent events: Texas Republicans redrawing maps mid-decade; California considers Proposition 50 to shift to legislature-drawn maps for partisan advantage (26:06).

10. The Erosion of the Voting Rights Act

• Section 5 (“preclearance”) was gutted by Shelby County v. Holder (2013).
• Section 2, protecting against racial gerrymandering, is now also at risk of being declared unconstitutional (26:45–28:06).
  • “If that happens, many of the most prominent members of Congress who represent minority communities could be gerrymandered out of their seats...” – Hasen (27:59)
• Supreme Court’s conservative bloc has long entertained weakening the Act; the current direction is deeply concerning (31:39).

11. Two-Term Presidential Limit and "Third Term" Talk

• The 22nd Amendment is clear, but Hasen warns about the dangers of even floating defiance of basic rules, as it damages democratic norms (35:00–36:42).

12. Existential Elections and Delegitimization

• Constantly framing elections as existential battles, or alleging widespread cheating, erodes societal trust and makes violence or undemocratic measures more justifiable in some minds (36:39).
  • “I think this is one of the greatest dangers for American democracy ... when elections are existential, people are willing to do more extreme things.” – Hasen (36:51)

13. Lack of a Constitutional Right to Vote

• The U.S. Constitution does not guarantee a right to vote; this right is constructed through state law and judicial interpretation (38:19).
  • “Our right to vote in the Constitution is very precarious ... we really need, if we want to have a 21st century democracy, we need a 21st century right to vote in our Constitution.” – Hasen (39:41)

14. Call for a New Civil Rights Movement

• The possible demise of the Voting Rights Act could spark a new era of mass protest, much like the 1960s civil rights era (39:53).
  • “It would look something like the 1960s. ... It's time for the 28th amendment.” – Hasen (39:53)

15. Faith in American People

• Hasen expresses hope that, if leaders fail, the American people themselves will defend democracy (41:22).
  • “I have faith in the American people ... that if our leaders won't step up ... the people are going to demand it.” – Hasen (41:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On presidential power:
  “The President’s tweet, or truth, whatever they call it, on Truth Social, that's not a royal edict. It's not as though Trump is a king...” – Hasen (05:41)

• On rare voter fraud:
  “There's very little election fraud in the United States. ... We've had very clean elections ... very few instances of fraud.” – Hasen (07:18)

• On Voting Rights Act vulnerability:
  “If that happens, many of the most prominent members of Congress who represent minority communities could be gerrymandered out of their seats...” – Hasen (27:59)

• On the cost of democracy’s delegitimization:
  “This is beyond Orwellian. It is a propaganda campaign meant to weaponize one party's base against democracy by claiming that their democracy has been taken from them.” – Hasen (37:26)

• On the need for a constitutional right to vote:
  “If we want to have a 21st century democracy, we need a 21st century right to vote in our Constitution.” – Hasen (39:41)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Decentralization of U.S. Elections – 02:24
• States’ legal options regarding DOJ data request – 03:34
• Trump’s legal authority to change voting methods – 05:41
• Reality of mail-in ballot fraud – 07:18
• Partisanship in state election roles – 09:37
• Evolution of Hasen’s views on centralization – 10:54
• Presidential power to “suspend” elections – 12:31
• Impact of voter suppression narratives – 15:47
• Disinformation vs. tampering threats – 17:51
• Redistricting process and partisanship – 22:50
• Integrity and future of the Voting Rights Act – 26:45
• Supreme Court’s role and likelihood of gutting Voting Rights Act – 29:21
• Potential impact of gutting Voting Rights Act – 31:39
• 22nd Amendment and "third term" talk – 35:00
• Consequences of existential/cheating election rhetoric – 36:39
• Lack of constitutional right to vote – 38:19
• Prospects for a new civil rights movement – 39:53
• Hasen’s faith in the people – 41:22

Conclusion

This episode captures the deep anxieties and real dangers facing American elections in 2026—highlighting both recent developments and structural trends eroding the guardrails of democracy. Richard Hasen provides historical, legal, and practical context, explaining why vigilance, reform, and renewed civic activism are essential for preserving free and fair elections in the current era. Listeners leave with a clear picture of both the urgency and complexity of threats to democracy right now.