Fresh Air (NPR)

Episode Title: The Undoing Of The Department Of Justice
Airdate: November 4, 2025
Host: Dave Davies
Guests: Carol Leonnig (Senior Investigative Correspondent, MSNBC), Aaron Davis (Investigative Reporter, Washington Post)
Main Focus: How the Department of Justice (DOJ) struggled to pursue Donald Trump’s alleged efforts to interfere with the 2020 election, the January 6th investigation, and the ultimate failure to bring cases to trial before the 2024 election, as covered in Leonnig and Davis’s book How Politics and Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department.

Episode Overview

This in-depth interview confronts the Department of Justice’s response to Donald Trump’s actions before, during, and after the January 6th attack, examining both the Trump and Biden administrations. Leonnig and Davis recount DOJ internal debates, missed investigative opportunities, and the cultural and political forces—within DOJ and beyond—that ultimately "vanquished" accountability, culminating in no trial before the 2024 election. The discussion also explores the role of the House January 6th Committee, the appointment of Special Counsel Jack Smith, and the impact of the Supreme Court’s ruling on presidential immunity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Warnings: The “Fake Elector” Plot Ignored

• Waleska McClellan’s Alarm (03:22)

  • In December 2020, McClellan, an investigator in the National Archives, notices forged elector certificates from battleground states. She flags the potential for a coordinated effort to subvert election results.
  • Leonnig: “She begins to review these with her fellow investigators and then decides the best thing to do is to go to the Justice Department... and ask them, doesn’t this look funny to you?” (03:32)
  • DOJ, overwhelmed by January 6th riot cases, declines to pursue, suggesting she contact state investigators instead.

• Missed Connections (05:57)

  • Aaron Davis stresses the importance of fake electors to Trump’s justification for overturning results:
    • “These fake elector documents were really important... because Donald Trump uses this as a pretense to say that Vice President Pence can actually do something different...” (05:57)

The DOJ’s Reluctant, Cautious Approach

• Initial DOJ Strategy Post-Inauguration (06:53)

  • After Biden’s inauguration, DC prosecutors propose investigating ties between Trump associates (e.g., Roger Stone) and extremist groups, but DOJ leaders resist, choosing to focus only on the “low-hanging fruit”—the rioters—and work up from there.
    • Davis: “This is immediately met with some pushback by the interim team that Joe Biden has put in charge of the Department of Justice... they really are opposed to looking at people and want to look at what happened in the crowd...” (07:50)

• Concerns over Privacy and Overreach (09:06)

  • Some FBI leaders worry about privacy and the First Amendment—whether investigating hotel stays or associations could overstep civil liberties.

Merrick Garland’s DOJ: Paralysis by Fear of Appearing Partisan

• Garland’s Cautious Mindset (10:03)

  • Garland fears any investigation of Trump or his allies would appear politically motivated, espouses “priestly independence.”
    • Leonnig: “He wanted to go back to a playbook created in the wake of Watergate... to have this incredibly pristine, almost priestly independence. But the problem was that not looking at this evidence delayed things for a long time.” (10:03)
  • DOJ drags feet; when they finally act, it’s on the basis of public evidence exposed by the House Select Committee, not their own investigations.

• House January 6th Committee Outsprints DOJ (11:54, 21:12)

  • DOJ is embarrassed by the Committee’s aggressive revelations on fake electors.
  • Committee refuses to share evidence with DOJ, asserting their need to control the information and the narrative.
    • Leonnig: “...those clients, the lawmakers, they do not want to turn over the goods and they stiff arm the Department of Justice...” (21:12)

The Lone Prosecutor & FBI Anxiety

• Thomas Windom’s Solo Start (13:06, 15:42)
  • For nearly a year, only one federal prosecutor, Thomas Windom, is quietly looking into possible Trump-related conspiracies.
  • He faces massive institutional reluctance from both DOJ and FBI to name Trump as a subject—the anxiety is so great, they limit inquiries to his campaign and advisers.
    • Leonnig: “There is an incredible... ‘sphincter tightening’ in the FBI. Just such anxiety about launching on this probe.” (15:42)

Shadow of Trump’s First Term

• Trauma from Trump’s DOJ Interference (17:13)
  • DOJ and FBI reticence is rooted in the bruising first Trump term, with direct interventions, pressure, and attacks against DOJ and FBI leadership.
    • Davis: “...as bad as it was, and we saw in the headlines then, it was actually worse. I mean, there was more arm twisting... more cajoling and trying to get prosecutors to sign things and go against what they thought was the right reading of the law.” (17:38)

Time is (Not) of the Essence

• A Deadly Delay (24:25, 25:05)

  • White-collar and political-criminal cases move slowly by default, but time was a critical issue with Trump’s campaign looming.
  • Garland insists DOJ should not consider the election calendar, despite internal concerns and Jack Smith’s later sense of urgency.

• Contrast with Jack Smith (25:05)

  • Smith, when appointed as special counsel, “sprints” to indictments, pushing his team to fast decisions.
    • Leonnig: “His motivation was... we can’t let the American public sit out there with these incredible allegations... without resolving it in a fair court.” (25:05)

Unprecedented Caution—Even in Routine Procedures

• Election “Quiet Period” (28:47)
  • Garland freezes investigations for 60 days before the 2022 midterms—even though Trump is not officially a candidate—stalling witness interviews and subpoenas.

The Mar-a-Lago Search and Classified Documents

• Reluctance to Move, Internal Dissent (33:03, 33:53)
  • The search for classified materials at Mar-a-Lago generates internal FBI anger and is used by Trump to paint himself as the victim of a politicized prosecution.
    • Davis: “If it was anybody else, we would arrest him tomorrow.” (34:20, paraphrasing DOJ official Julie Edelstein)

The Supreme Court, Presidential Immunity, and the Endgame

• Immunity Ruling Subverts Justice (35:49, 37:46)
  • The Supreme Court’s decision that Trump may be immune for acts taken while president fundamentally derails the DOJ’s election interference case.
    • Leonnig: “When they see the Supreme Court is slow walking a decision on immunity, she [Judge Tanya Chutkan] knows that there’s going to have to be an appeal... and they stop worrying about having a trial at that moment.” (36:57)
    • Davis: “There was, by that point in time, a document inside Jack Smith’s office... a hundred page plan for how they were going to try Donald Trump for election interference. And... have to go back through and begin to redline and take out everything...” (37:46)

The National Consequence: No Day in Court

• DOJ Leaders Express Regret (41:23)

  • Some agents and prosecutors, in hindsight, admit the delay was tragic and express regret at not acting with greater urgency.
    • Davis: “There’s several folks we’ve talked to for the book who feel terribly about how things have gone.” (41:23)
  • DOJ’s “good faith” and caution advantage Trump; their restraint is not reciprocated by Trump or his political allies.

• Failure to Present Evidence to the Public (44:29, 45:56)

  • The American people were denied the chance to hear the evidence against Trump in open court.
    • Leonnig: “This was a huge failure of the American justice system that these trials never saw a courtroom.” (45:56, quoting Judge John Bates)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On DOJ Anxiety:

  • “There is an incredible... ‘sphincter tightening’ in the FBI. Just such anxiety about launching on this probe.”
    — Carol Leonnig (15:42)

• On Jack Smith’s Motivation:

  • “We can’t let the American public sit out there with these incredible allegations... without resolving it in a fair court.”
    — Carol Leonnig (25:05)

• On Institutional Regret:

  • “Donald Trump benefited from a very cautious... Justice Department, benefited from the very things that are not now part of how the Justice Department operates...”
    — Aaron Davis (41:30)

• On the Supreme Court’s Immunity Ruling:

  • “When they see the Supreme Court is slow walking a decision on immunity, she [Judge Chutkan] knows... they stop worrying about having a trial at that moment.”
    — Carol Leonnig (36:57)

• On Systemic Failure:

  • “This was a huge failure of the American justice system that these trials never saw a courtroom.”
    — Carol Leonnig quoting Judge John Bates (45:56)

Key Timestamps

• 03:22: Waleska McClellan discovers “fake elector” plot and DOJ’s initial rebuff.
• 06:53: DOJ prosecutors propose investigating ties between extremists and Trump, meet resistance.
• 10:03: Merrick Garland’s philosophy and its impact on the DOJ’s approach.
• 13:06–15:42: Thomas Windom is made the DOJ's lone point person on Trump investigations; internal anxiety mounts.
• 17:38: DOJ officials’ trauma and caution after experiences during the first Trump term.
• 24:25–25:05: Garland’s hands-off approach to the prosecutorial calendar vs. Jack Smith’s urgency.
• 28:47: DOJ pauses investigations ahead of 2022 midterms due to election regulations.
• 33:03–34:20: Mar-a-Lago classified documents search; “If it were anybody else, we would arrest him tomorrow.”
• 35:49–38:56: Supreme Court ruling slow-walks immunity; DOJ realizes a trial likely won't happen.
• 41:23–45:56: DOJ regrets, lost public accountability, and reflections on systemic failure.

Conclusion

Leonnig and Davis, drawing on deep sourcing and new revelations, paint a portrait of a DOJ hobbled by its own traditions, fear of politicization, and an altered political landscape. Despite the best of intentions and occasional flashes of commitment, the Department’s caution and adherence to old norms left it unable to bring the nation’s most consequential recent case to trial—a result lamented even by its own officials, leaving critical questions of accountability unanswered as the country enters a new election cycle.