Tim Robbins Believes In The Power Of Theater

Summary

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Fresh Air: "Tim Robbins Believes In The Power Of Theater"

Original Air Date: November 10, 2025
Host: Tanya Moseley (NPR)
Guest: Tim Robbins, Academy Award-winning actor, director, founder of the Actors Gang

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Tanya Moseley and Tim Robbins, exploring Robbins’ lifelong dedication to theater, his new play Topsy Turvy, and how art can bridge divisions during times of profound social isolation. Robbins shares reflections on his creative process, the influence of formative mentors, the ethics of storytelling, and his work utilizing theater as rehabilitation in prisons. The discussion offers insight into the unique, community-based power of theater compared to film and television.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Play: Topsy Turvy and Post-Pandemic Isolation

• Robbins describes Topsy Turvy as a reflection on how collective harmony breaks down after enforced isolation, using a chorus that loses its ability to sing together as a metaphor for societal division post-pandemic.
  • "How does a chorus harmonize when they are kept from each other?" (Tim Robbins, 05:16)
• He draws analogy from ancient Greek drama, which used the chorus to represent the voice of the citizenry facing collective dilemmas, making theater a space for public dialogue about communal trauma and reconciliation.
  • "The chorus would have a big dilemma ... and what we were seeing on stage was a way for the society to look at what had just happened and be able to explore that." (03:24)

2. The Unique Power of Theater

• Robbins chooses to work in small theaters because it gives him complete creative freedom, a value he has prioritized since founding the Actors Gang in the early 1980s.
  • "I have complete freedom. And I've always, from the very start, held that to be the most important thing." (Tim Robbins, 06:13)
• Despite commercial success, Robbins insists on returning to the stage, viewing financial gains from TV/film as a way to fund meaningful theatrical work rather than chasing Hollywood momentum.
  • "My agents hated it ... I would say to them, 'Well, I'm happy to work through this time, but then I'm going to do a play.'..." (07:06)

3. Roots in Street Theater and Commedia dell’arte

• Robbins’ first acting experiences were with street theater in New York, performing in underserved neighborhoods with no “audience filter”—leading to visceral, often interactive performances.
  • "Most of these people are seeing theater for the very first time ... One thing those audiences didn't have was the filter that you learn when you go to theater a lot. So there was an awful lot of talking back." (Tim Robbins, 10:45)
• He discusses how this shaped his appreciation for commedia dell’arte and the immediacy of stories that speak to the present moment.

4. Ethics of Storytelling: Manipulation vs. Truth

• Robbins reflects on his approach to storytelling—especially in films like Dead Man Walking—as a deliberate effort to avoid emotional manipulation and offer viewers the agency to form their own conclusions.
  • "If I've done that by manipulating them, they're going to forget about it five minutes after the movie's over … It's more difficult to get to a resolution in a complicated way that allows both sides to have dignity." (Tim Robbins, 13:53)
• He expresses discomfort with film as propaganda and the normalization of violence as entertainment in Hollywood scripts, especially after achieving stardom.
  • "I would consider, in retrospect ... movies that had this kind of vigilante idea of justice or this idea that violence is somehow entertainment ... that really disturbed me." (Tim Robbins, 17:06)

5. The Moral Compass: Family, Music, and Justice

• Robbins attributes his values to parents with strong social justice ethics (his father refused to play segregated venues in the South) and early influences from Catholicism and the Boy Scouts.
  • "The moral compass comes from having extraordinary parents with a very strong moral code." (Tim Robbins, 18:55)

6. Artistic Influences and Mentors

• Robbins identifies formative experiences attending Broadway and Shakespeare in the park, being inspired by Dario Fo’s The Accidental Death of an Anarchist, and later personal mentorship from Robert Altman.
  • "When I was in high school ... seeing Nashville in 1976 blew my mind ... you can make movies like that." (Tim Robbins, 24:46)
• Altman’s collaborative, humble approach shaped Robbins’ philosophy as both an actor and director.
  • "Bob would always answer with, 'I don't know, what do you think?' ... why would I cheat myself of a better idea?" (Tim Robbins, 27:26)

7. The Enduring Resonance of The Shawshank Redemption

• Robbins acknowledges the film’s lasting impact, especially its message of hope and agency—even for people in dire situations, including the incarcerated.
  • "This is a movie that really moved people ... it’s that that film changed me. That film made me think in a different way." (Tim Robbins, 33:56)
• He highlights the film's portrayal of deep, platonic male friendship, distinct from the typical Hollywood “buddy” narrative.

8. Prison Theater and Emotional Agency

• Robbins details the Actors Gang’s prison program, which utilizes commedia dell’arte techniques to teach emotional literacy—giving incarcerated individuals tools to explore and manage their emotional responses.
  • "What are they learning here? They're learning that they have a choice in the emotion that they have in response to anger. That is the starting point because it gives them agency over their own emotions." (Tim Robbins, 38:18)
• The program’s effect: Participants realize they are "more than anger" and can access laughter, fear, and joy, often for the first time in years.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On post-pandemic theater:
  “It was such a unique and extraordinary time ... that it was up at that level of Greek tragedy.” (Tim Robbins, 04:15)

• On creative choice:
  “Why would I cheat myself of a better idea?” (Tim Robbins quoting Robert Altman, 27:45)

• On media and propaganda:
  “I don't think we in the United States are used to thinking about the media that we consume as propaganda … It's never really used in the American context.” (Tanya Moseley, 15:27)

• On Shawshank Redemption fandom:
  “What would bother me is if I got famous for a movie where I played Kooky Magoober ... But as it is, this is something—this is a movie that really moved people.” (Tim Robbins, 31:25)

• On hope and agency:
  “We all want to believe that ... despite the challenges ... there is a spot on a beach in Ziwa to Naho for us ... I think the idea that Andy had the long plan and could see a future that was brighter, I think that's something that people want to believe in.” (32:13)

• On rehabilitation through theater:
  “For the first time in 20 years, I've been able to laugh like a giddy fool because I'm playing a character.” (Tim Robbins, 38:47)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:54 — Robbins on the impact of the pandemic and how it shaped his worldview
• 03:10 — The roots of the chorus in Greek theater and its modern relevance
• 06:11 — Why Robbins prioritizes small theater over Hollywood
• 08:59 — Early experiences with street theater in NYC
• 13:53 — Ethics of storytelling and the responsibility to truth
• 17:06 — Rejecting roles that normalize violence as entertainment
• 18:55 — The origins of Robbins' moral compass
• 22:34 — Artistic influences: Dario Fo, Robert Altman, Broadway
• 31:41 — Reflections on The Shawshank Redemption’s legacy
• 35:13 — Actors Gang prison program: method and impact

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Final Thoughts

Through deeply personal stories and lively conversation, Tim Robbins makes a compelling case for theater as an art form with the power to heal, unite, and reveal truths about ourselves and society. His career choices, commitment to creative freedom, and belief in the transformative potential of live performance offer a model for artists seeking to create meaningful work in turbulent times.

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For More

• Topsy Turvy tour and more on the Actors Gang: actorsgang.com
• Fresh Air archives, bonus episodes, and newsletter: NPR/Fresh Air

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Transcript

[Tim Robbins]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Interested in a quality online education? Capella is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn [e-mail].

[Tanya Moseley]

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tanya Moseley, and my guest today is Tim Robbins, Academy Award winning actor, director and founder of the Actors Gang a a theater company he started in Los angeles back in 1981 with a group of fellow UCLA students. We sat down in October in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, after a live performance of his new play Topsy Turvy at the Kohler Arts Center. Sheboygan itself is a small lakeside city right next to Kohler, a place with a rich art scene. The performance was part of the city's first film festival, which wrapped with a 30th anniversary screening of Dead Man Walking. The the second film Robbins directed. Topsy Turvy is about a chorus that's lost its ability to sing together after the pandemic's long isolation, a metaphor that hits uncomfortably close to home for many. And in a way, it connects to what Robbins has explored for more than 40 impossible reconciliations between people with opposing beliefs, between guilt and redemption, between between isolation and connection. From the Shawshank Redemption to Bob Roberts to his prison theater work with the Actors Gang, he circles around one how do we find harmony when we've forgotten how to listen? Robbins and I talked about why he's taking an experimental play on the road instead of making another prestige TV show. And I asked him about how the COVID lockdown and the isolation that followed the affected him. Here's our conversation.

[Tim Robbins]

Well, in many ways, the lockdown was illuminating to me. Things that I had held sacred or had held as truths were challenged during that time. And what it made me do was it made me question myself and question what my beliefs are. And I think that's a very healthy thing. As a writer, I need to do that all the time. As an actor, I have to do that. So drama is about finding the complexities and the conflicts that we all have within ourselves. I think that's the way to approach these discussions about society at large. When you're dealing with them in a play or in a movie, you have to give respect to the other side.

[Tanya Moseley]

So for your writing process, how does the idea of the chorus because Topsy Turvy, they're a chorus, this collective voice, help us think about the division. What was it about, that particular way of being able to tell the story that you felt was a way to be able to get at that division.

[Tim Robbins]

So just a reminder that in Greek theater, which was kind of the start of what we think of as Western theater, the purpose of these plays that they did, both comedies and dramas, were to involve the citizenry in a dialogue with the gods. So the citizenry in those plays were represented by the chorus. And the chorus would have a big dilemma. And the dilemma usually had something to do with something that had happened recently in Athens or in Greece. And what we were seeing on stage was a way for the society to look at what had just happened and be able to explore that, ask questions about it, and see the story told through the dialogue between the chorus and the gods. And I felt the subject matter of those plays, recent wars that had taken a lot of lives, plagues, different conflicts within the societies. I felt that this was such a unique and extraordinary time that we were living in, that it was up at that level of Greek tragedy and Greek comedy, the degree to which this whole world locked down. This has never happened in human history before, the coordinated locking down of societies throughout the world. You know, I was, you know, as I was seeing this develop, I was like, there's got to be one country that just says, we're not doing this. And I just was blown away that it had this kind of coordinated unanimity. And that scared me a little bit. And I was like, well, what is this really about? What is this about? And so those questions led me to ask those questions in the play. Using the chorus as a means to figure out these people who lovely singing together at the beginning of the play. They sound beautiful and then they are told they have to separate. And so how does a chorus harmonize when they are kept from each other?

[Tanya Moseley]

I'm just curious, Tim. I mean, you're an Oscar winner. You can do anything. You could be in movies, you've done prestige television. What is it about playing in hundred seat theaters and devoting your time to it? What do you think it is about the theater to be able to articulate the story that you're telling in Topsy Turvy that can't really be told anywhere else?

[Tim Robbins]

I have complete freedom. And I've always, from the very start, held that to be the most important thing. We started the actors gang out of UCLA in 1982, and when you say we, I'm talking about about eight or nine young punk rock infused actors that just wanted to make some noise and have fun and tell stories. And we did this play called Ubu Wa Ubu the King. This was the first play we did. And we did it in this dark street in Hollywood at midnight on Fridays and Saturdays, and it was a big success. And it told us that we have this great opportunity and we started doing other plays and. But then I started. Right around the same time I started getting work and I had financed Ubu the King on my salary from delivering pizzas in Beverly Hills. If you're going to deliver pizzas, by.

[Tanya Moseley]

The way, that's the place.

[Tim Robbins]

That's the place.

[Tanya Moseley]

Good tips.

[Tim Robbins]

Yeah, good tips. And so then I started working and I realized, oh, well, I can. I can fund the next play with this one. One paycheck, right? And so I started this kind of dance and my agents hated it because they're trying to build momentum. And I would say to them, well, I'm happy to work through this time, but then I'm going to do a play. And they're like, oh, Broadway. I'm like, no, no, I've got this theater company and we're going to do this thing. So I need like 3 months free, 4 months free, and I don't want to go out in any auditions. And so they were like, you're crazy, that's stupid. And I was like, well, I'm sorry, that's what. What I'm doing. And so this going back and forth in the first five, six years of my career was absolutely essential for my survival. And what happened was my perspective was one of use that great gift that you're getting from working in TV episodics and sitcoms and make art with that. So this continued for the past 43 years.

[Tanya Moseley]

Let's go back to a young Tim Robbins. Is it true that you started acting with a street theater group at 12?

[Tim Robbins]

Yeah.

[Tanya Moseley]

First off, how does a 12 year old find a live theater group on the street? Like, how did that happen?

[Tim Robbins]

So my sister Adele, who is in the play, so she was working as a stage manager at this place called the Theater for the New City. And they were doing weird theater. You know, this is like late 60s, early 70s Greenwich Village. You know, there were plays with nude people in them. And so I got kind of interested in what she was doing. Of course you did. And so Crystal Field, who ran that theater company and still runs it to this day, invited me to be in a play called Undercover Cop. And I was to play a gang member. And it was, you know, this kind of satire about what was going on in New York City at the time. And I found myself acting on the streets of New York. And what that meant was that they would pack A truck with four 4 by 8 platforms raised up about 2ft, which was the stage, a couple iron bars that held a backdrop, and a truck that had all the costumes in it. So we would go to a different neighborhood every Saturday and Sunday in the month of August and set up our stage, set up an audience area, do a little parade in the neighborhood to get more audience, and then do this play for 45 minutes to an hour.

[Tanya Moseley]

What was the reception like? Do you remember how people received you?

[Tim Robbins]

Well, you have to understand, most of these people are seeing theater for the very first time. We're not going to wealthy neighborhoods. We're going to, you know, all kinds of neighborhoods in New York. And the reception was always great. One thing those audiences didn't have was the filter that you learn when you go to theater a lot. So there was an awful lot of talking back.

[Tanya Moseley]

Call and response. Was it kind of like a call and response, though?

[Tim Robbins]

Yeah, which is great. And by the way, you learn very quickly that that's a reality you have to deal with. Not only that reality, you have to deal with mama up four flights yelling for her kids, or someone yelling, or some guy that's drugged out who's just wandering onto the stage all of a sudden. And he's there and he's like, oh, what's he doing? We had one scene where George Brittanief, this actor, plays this guy named Dog Fiend, and he's like, he's a thief. And he grabs one of the characters on stage's purse and runs away. Right? And we had three guys chasing him. He's running faster than I've ever seen him run. He comes backstage and we're all like, no, no, it's just the play. It's just the play. Ready to kick his ass. It was so funny.

[Tanya Moseley]

Those were some really good lessons for you as an. As an actor, as a performer.

[Tim Robbins]

Yes. And I didn't learn till much later how rooted the street theater of that theater for the new city was in the commedia dell', arte, which is what that was back in the 15th and 16th century. It was basically street theater. They wouldn't do comedia dell' arte plays in fancy theaters. They would do them in a public square. And they were itinerant companies. They would do their show, they'd pack up and they'd go to the next town. And so I've done a lot of exploration into that whole world of commedia dell' arte since and have come to understand how vital an art form it was, because they were telling stories that were absolutely relevant to the world around them at the time. I know this about theater. I know that as a child, when I saw something transformative, something that blew my mind, I can still remember those plays, though they're still with me. That's the power that theater has. It can actually transform a consciousness. It can change an opinion. It can. It can illuminate a truth that in an immediate way, not in a manipulative way. Because film can be very manipulative. And it's. How long does it last? Is it candy or is it a substantial meal? And for example, with Dead Man Walking, when we were in the final stages of editing that movie, there was a whole bunch of people that were saying, tim, you got them in your palm of your hand. Why do you show the murder again.

[Tanya Moseley]

During the execution at the end of the film? Right.

[Tim Robbins]

Why are you doing that? And my response was, because it's true. Because it's what happened. And why, if I. I don't want them in the palm of my hand, I want them to make their own mind up about this. And if I've led them into a compassion and understanding for this particular person that did a terrible thing, and if they have an inclination towards forgiveness or at least maybe anti killing that person, well, great. But if I've done that by manipulating them, they're going to forget about it five minutes after the movie's over. So we have to be responsible to those parents of those people that lost the children. And remind the audience at the end this, remember this. This is why he's here. Okay, then if they still, after this, feel the same way, then we've done something significant. But if anyone can manipulate with propaganda, you can do. It's so easy to do, but it's more difficult to get to a resolution in a complicated way that allows both sides to have dignity once you're there. It's my belief that's when real discussions happen, where people's minds do change.

[Tanya Moseley]

Two things. You're saying that first off, I don't think we here in the United States are used to thinking about the media that we consume as propaganda. And, well, that word is often just used to talk about media from other parts of the world. It's never really used in the American context. When did you start to realize that or come to that understanding or that idea that movies in particular could be a form of propaganda?

[Tim Robbins]

I had a concept of it, but then actually to be in them, you get a larger understanding of that. So when I broke through, when I became famous and didn't have to audition anymore. I would get scripts, right, sent to me.

[Tanya Moseley]

And when was what? Take us to the time.

[Tim Robbins]

Okay, after Bull Durham came out. So I saw all the scripts, right, that were going forward and an awful lot of them had content that made me uncomfortable. And I would consider, in retrospect, I wouldn't have identified it as propaganda then, but I would in retrospect identify it as propaganda now.

[Tanya Moseley]

I'm curious, what types of roles were you getting offered after Bill Durham? What were the things that you were turning away that you felt like were propaganda?

[Tim Robbins]

Movies that had this kind of vigilante idea of justice or this idea that violence, violence is somehow entertainment. Like, you know, where there's just a lot of death. Like, you know, remember those movies where, like Rambo and, you know, just. I remember going to one of those movies and going, let's do a little, let's do a little counter here. Let's, let's count how many deaths we see here. And you know, one explosion takes, well, that's about 20, you know, and adding up the amount of death you've consumed in a two hour period. And something about that, I think it must, I don't know what it is, but something about that really disturbed me. The idea that people are enjoying watching people murdered. That's weird. And it was all too prevalent and it continued and continued and continued. And to the point where I believe today that's the predominant movie and streaming service kind of thing we see is just a bunch of violence that's uncontrolled. Now, violence is absolutely important in the storytelling of some stories, like, for example, Dead Man Walking. There's a very violent act that happens, but that's necessary for the drama. It's not for entertainment. It seems like a lot of these movies were you got to have a death every, you know, 10 minutes or the formula goes to pieces. You know, it just seemed weirdly exploitative and weirdly pornographic to me. It's just like gratuitous death.

[Tanya Moseley]

I just want to know where your moral compass comes from like this. You know, I've heard you say, like, you've turned down $7 million offers.

[Tim Robbins]

The moral compass comes from having extraordinary parents with a very strong moral code sense of justice. My father was a folk singer when it, when his group, the Highwaymen were playing in the south, he refused to perform to segregated audiences. So in the south they used to have, you know, the separation. And he said, we're not going to perform unless you integrate this audience. And so from the very start, I had a very strong sense of what was going on in the world, what our society was capable of and also what our society, the traps it can fall into. And they were both Catholic. My father was the queen choir conductor. He had a chorus like in Topsy Turvy. And also, I think it was weirdly, it was also having been a Boy Scout. Yeah, the code of the Boy Scout is pretty extraordinary. The characteristics that the Boy Scouts of America demand.

[Tanya Moseley]

Our guest today is Tim Robbins, Academy Award winning actor, director and founder of the Actors Gang. Let's take a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley and this is FRESH AIR.

[Tim Robbins]

This message comes from AT&T. America's First Network is also its fastest and most Reliable based on RootMetrics, United States Root Score Report 1H 2025 tested with best commercially available smartphones on three national mobile networks across all available network types. Your experiences may vary. RootMetrics rankings are not an endorsement of AT&T. When you compare, there's no comparison. AT&T.

[Tanya Moseley]

If you're a super fan of FRESH Air with Terry Gross, we have exciting news. WHYY has launched a Fresh Air Society, a leadership group dedicated to ensuring Fresh Air's legacy. For over 50 years, this program has brought you fascinating interviews with favorite authors.

[Tim Robbins]

Artists, actors and more.

[Tanya Moseley]

As a member of the Fresh Air Society, you'll receive special benefits and recognition. Learn more at whyy.org freshairsociety There are.

[Tim Robbins]

Tens of thousands of veterans behind bars in the US Often without any of the mental health services they may need. When you go to prison, you automatically lose your benefits. As a veteran, you become a ward of the state. How much do we owe these veterans who have fought our wars? Listen now to the Sunday story on.

[Tanya Moseley]

The up first podcast from npr. Hi, this is Molly Sievi Nesper, digital producer at FRESH air.

[Tim Robbins]

And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.

[Tanya Moseley]

One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter, and I'm a newsletter fan.

[Tim Robbins]

I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly picks, timely highlights from the archive.

[Tanya Moseley]

It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week. An exclusive.

[David Biancooli]

So [e-mail] fresh air and look for.

[Tim Robbins]

An email from Molly every Saturday morning.

[Tanya Moseley]

You mentioned that you had so many folks that really opened up your consciousness as a young man, as a boy, a lot of theater, theater actors. But what movies, what art, what shows kind of like informed your consciousness and also informed your thoughts that this is something that you could do.

[Tim Robbins]

I saw Pippin on Broadway when I was a kid. That was pretty remarkable. I saw some theater in the park, the Shakespeare in the park productions that were extraordinary. One by a guy named Andre Serbon, a Romanian director who I would meet many years later and be able to show him my production of Midsummer Night's Dream. And it was like, you know, I've had these incredible moments with people like that, mentors, people that like, for example, Dario Foe, the great Italian playwright, Nobel Prize winner. When I was in college, I read his play the Accidental Death of an Anarchist, and that was the first time that I felt I could write a play. So that was the starting point for me. And then to be in Milan, what.

[Tanya Moseley]

Was it about the play that made you feel like, I can do this?

[Tim Robbins]

So funny. But he was talking about a real incident that had happened where an activist was murdered in police custody. So this very serious subject matter, but hilarious farce. And the mix of those two, when I read it, I thought, that would be incredible to be able to mix those two things with something that I'm thinking about right now. And so to then, 30 years later, meet the guy and have him endorse the play I had just directed and then invite me into his world. And to the point where the following year, I was back in Milan with a play I had just written about the commedia dell' arte called Harlequino Onto Freedom. And I'm sitting at his feet as he's telling me his notes on the play, and I'm. I'm just like, how did I get here? It's. And I. I had a similar experience with Robert Altman.

[Tanya Moseley]

Oh, yes.

[Tim Robbins]

So, like, when I was in high school and you mentioned what affected me or influenced me, seeing Nashville in 1976 blew my mind. I thought I had seen movies before that, but I had never seen anything that encapsulated the whole society in a movie. And I. I thought, wow. Wow, you can make movies like that. And I was addicted to his movies after that. And all those other great filmmakers, by the way, in the 70s, Hal Ashby with Harold and Maude and Pakula and, you know, all those great early Scorsese movies, you know, there was. It was a fertile time. You know, these are incredible people. So then two years later, being in a room where I'm meeting Robert Altman for the first time time I driven there, I had asked my agent, what are the sides? What do I have to do? I. I want to be in this movie. No sides, no audition. He just wants to Meet you. Right. So I'm sitting down at lunch with Robert Altman at his place.

[Tanya Moseley]

And take us to the time period.

[Tim Robbins]

1991.

[Tanya Moseley]

1991.

[Tim Robbins]

And I'm. You know, I've done a few movies, and he wants to meet me on this show called Shortcuts. And I had this incredible lunch with him. And he said, the reason I wanted to meet you is because of the theater you do. Because he had been doing a lot of theater because he'd been kind of Persona non grata in Hollywood for a long time and he needed to keep creating. And so he did theater. And it was his interest in the actors gang that got me in the room. And then Shortcuts didn't happen, but he remembered, and he remembered me, and he said, I'm doing this new movie called the Player, and I want you to do the lead in it. And I was absolutely in. Had to turn down a million dollars in order to do it. And I had to then wait while the financing came through. And it took a while. And what I found out later was that Robert Altman was offered his budget with a different actor, and he said, nope, I promised this kid, and I'm staying with him. And because of that loyalty, I was able to be in a creative relationship with one of my heroes. And I'm sitting there in the office observing, during pre production, observing Bob talking to department heads. And they'd come in, they say, bob, what do you think about this? And Bob would always answer with, I don't know, what do you think? And they would say what they thought and then they'd leave. And after they'd leave, I'd say, bob, you know what you want, right? He says, yeah, I know what I want, but why would I cheat myself of a better idea? So I got to understand what humility is in the creative process.

[Tanya Moseley]

But teaching you that humility and also, like, why cheat yourself out of a great idea? It sounds like that's an ethos that you've taken with you throughout your career.

[Tim Robbins]

Absolutely. For me, working with Robert Altman on the three films I work with him on was my film school. It was my way into being able to direct. I, in fact, directed my first movie about three months after I finished doing the Player. And I took his cameraman and his first ad and with. With his blessing, of course. And then Bob. Every edit I had of that movie, Bob Roberts, every edit I had, Bob was at. So I'd show it every Friday and I'd invite friends. And Bob showed up every Friday and says, getting better kid getting better, that kind of thing, that mentorship, that love. I, you know, been so blessed to have people like that in my life. I miss him tremendously. There's so many times, particularly in the last five years, where I've just wanted to pick up the phone and call him because I need his address.

[Tanya Moseley]

If you're just joining us, my guest is Tim Robbins, actor, director and founder of the Actors Gang. His new play, Topsy Turvy, explores how the pandemic's isolation changed the way we listen to each other. We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH air. I'm Rachel Martin. If you're tired of small talk, check out the Wild Card Podcast. I invite influential thinkers to open up about the big topics we all think about but rarely talk about. Tune in this fall to hear Mel Robbins, Malala Yousafzai and Brene Brown talk about everything from grief and God to ambition and forgiveness. Watch or listen on the NPR app, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. On NPR's Wildcard podcast, Padma Lakshmi says she feels better at 55 than 25.

[Tim Robbins]

I wouldn't go back to my 20s for all the money in the world. I really wouldn't.

[Tanya Moseley]

I was so hard on myself.

[Tim Robbins]

I about every little thing or every, you know, imperfection.

[Tanya Moseley]

Watch or listen to that Wildcard conversation on the NPR app or on YouTube. At NPR Wildcard.

[Tim Robbins]

I'm Jesse Thorne. What advice did your guidance counselor give you? Jason Mantzoukas remembers his nothing much. I feel like the guidance counselor told me what I feel like teachers had been telling me for a long time, which was essentially, why don't you try? That's bullseye. Find us in the NPR app, MaximumFun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tanya Moseley]

Shawshank Redemption is one of your most popular works. I'm sure just about everywhere you go, someone talks to you about it. Is that true?

[Tim Robbins]

Yeah. Yeah. It's very nice. It's very nice. It's I was joking with a friend of mine, you know that because we were out and there was, you know, about three or four times we someone came up about Shawshank and they were like, does that bother you? I said, not at all. You know, because, you know what would bother me is, is if I got famous for a movie where I played Kooky Magoober. That would really bother me. Yeah.

[David Biancooli]

Yeah.

[Tim Robbins]

Hey, Kooky Magoober. That would be horrible. That would be a nightmare. But as it is, this is something this is a movie that really moved people.

[Tanya Moseley]

What do you think it is about this movie that because it wasn't a box office hit when it first came out, what people are relating to really are like, the ability to see it over and over again. I was on the phone with my mom and I told her I was coming to do this, and she got really quiet and she said, shawshank Redemption's my favorite movie. And I said, yeah, I know everyone's favorite movie, but what do you think it is about it? That people keep going back to it over and over again and it hits the Tinder place within them?

[Tim Robbins]

Yeah. I think we all want to believe that despite the challenges we have in our lives, the obstacles that are placed in front of us, that there is a spot on a beach in Ziwa to Naho for us. I think that prison can be a metaphor for other things in life. There's many people that are in jobs that they, you know, have to have, but are not particularly liberating, shall we say. There's people in relationships that they should be out of. And I think there's various ways that we can close walls around ourselves in our life and imprison ourselves mentally and emotionally. And I think the idea that Andy had the long plan and could see a future that was brighter, I think that's something that people want to believe in. I also believe that it's one of the very few rare stories where you see a male friendship that is not contingent upon car chases or skirt chasing. It's not a buddy movie, which I've done a few of. It's a movie about a real friendship between two men, a love story in a lot of ways.

[Tanya Moseley]

Does your view of that role and that film evolve as you grow and evolve?

[Tim Robbins]

I just appreciate it for everything it is. What a gift it has been. Because when people come up to me and talk to me about that film, it's not like I love that film. It's that that film changed me. That film made me think in a different way. Not to mention the times that I've talked to people that have been incarcerated, and I do work with people in LA and California that have been incarcerated. The Actors Gang has prison programs. We do rehabilitation inside the California correctional system. And what that movie means to those that have been incarcerated is profound. This idea of hope, this idea that freedom can be achieved even in the direst circumstances, so that it's about what's inside. That's why Andy survives you up 14.

[Tanya Moseley]

Prisons you all have done work in. Did the idea come after Shawshank Redemption because of Shawshank Redemption. How did that idea even come about to do that prison work? Were you all put on theater productions in prison?

[Tim Robbins]

No, we don't do productions. We go into the prison system and teach classes. The aim is to work in the way that we work at the actors camp. When we're workshopping, we use the commedia dell'. Arte. The reason we use it is because we want to free people of the idea that they have to create a character out of whole cloth. So you go to one of those characters, and then the more important part of the work is you have access to four different emotions, and you have to choose one of them when you come onto stage. And those emotions are happiness, sadness, anger, and fear. That's it. So make a choice when you come on stage of one of those emotions in the character that you are playing. And when I took this training in 1984, I couldn't get on stage. I was already a working actor. And there was this French actor named Georges Bigot from the Theatre du Soleil that just performed in the Olympic Arts Festival in Los Angeles, and they were this big sensation. He was running this workshop, and I wanted to take it right? And he would not let me on stage. He'd yell at me, say, get off, get off, get off. And I couldn't figure it out. And I got really frustrated. And then I saw this one actor make an entrance, and I understood what George was talking about. This total theater from the moment you come on stage, an image, a character, emotion, and an urgency and an importance to tell this story. And that was where everything shifted for me. For the work that we did. This idea that the access to these four emotions is key to everything, but also the ability to shift from one emotion to another immediately. As it happens in life, you can be having the worst day in the world and find 100 bucks on the. On the ground. Go, hey, yeah. That's a good day, right? That's the way emotion works in us. And so when you bring this into prison and you say you got these four emotions, and you have to be able to switch from one to the other like that, that's the training. So now you get a situation where they're in an improv as different commedia dell' arte characters, and one of them is angry, and then the other one is angry too, and you say, hold on, hold on. This isn't much of a scene because it's only going to be a fight. But what would happen if you responded to that anger in a different emotion? Sadness or happiness? Or fear what would happen. And so they do that improv right now. What are they learning here? They're learning that they have a choice in the emotion that they have in response to anger. That is the starting point because it gives them agency over their own emotions. If they can do it in a theater improv, they can do it on the yard. And they do. And they realize, they come to us with these incredible statements like, you know, I didn't realize until I took this class that I have been wearing a mask on the yard for the last 20 years. The mask is anger. That's the way. That's the emotion of survival in a prison, the anger face, the face that says, I will kill you if you approach me. And in this class they realize I am more than that. I'm more than my anger. I have these other emotions. And for the first time in 20 years, I've been able to laugh like a giddy fool because I'm playing a character.

[Tanya Moseley]

Tim, thank you so much for your work, your honesty and this time that you've spent with us today to tell us just a little snippet about your life and your career. Thank you so much, Tim.

[Tim Robbins]

Thank you, Tonya.

[Tanya Moseley]

Award winning actor Tim Robbins. Coming up, TV critic David Biancooley reviews the new Netflix miniseries Death by Lightning. This is FRESH air.

[Tim Robbins]

Free speech has long been considered one of the United States most important ideals.

[Tanya Moseley]

But the idea of free speech has never really applied to everyone.

[Tim Robbins]

Put very simply, some people have a lot more power to speak than others. You can listen to code switch on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Keeping up with the news can feel.

[David Biancooli]

Like a 24 hour job. Luckily, it is our job.

[Tanya Moseley]

Every hour on the NPR News now.

[David Biancooli]

Podcast, we take the latest, most important.

[Tim Robbins]

Stories happening and we package them into.

[Tanya Moseley]

Five minute episodes so you can easily.

[David Biancooli]

Squeeze them in between meetings and on.

[Tanya Moseley]

Your way to that thing. Listen to the NPR News now podcast now.

[Tim Robbins]

Making time for the news is important.

[David Biancooli]

But when you need a break, we've.

[Tim Robbins]

Got you covered on All Songs Considered.

[David Biancooli]

NPR's music podcast. Think of it like a music discovery show, a well deserved escape with friends and yeah, some serious music insight.

[Tim Robbins]

I'm gonna keep it real. I have no idea what this story is about. Hear new episodes of All Songs Considered.

[David Biancooli]

Every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts.

[Tanya Moseley]

Death by Lightning, the new four part miniseries now streaming on Netflix, stars Michael Shannon from Boardwalk Empire as President James Garfield and Matthew McFaddy from Succession as Charles Guiteau, the man who assassinated him. Our TV critic David Biancooli has this review.

[David Biancooli]

Death by Lightning is a period piece, but it plays like a 19th century version of the West Wing. It's full of political intrigue and unexpected betrayals, focusing on an elected representative whose desire is to do right and do good, no matter how many obstacles are in the way. James Garfield, played by the always intense Michael Shannon, brings his intensity to Garfield's public oratory. But at home, his Garfield is a gentle, loving husband, father and farmer. An unlikely person to rise to the top in the snake pit of national government in the 1880s. Equally unlikely to achieve any level of success is Charles Guiteau, another character from humble beginnings. Guiteau, though, is a lot less noble than Garfield and. And a lot less humble. In fact, he may be delusional about his own self worth, and he's not above stealing, lying, forging or other crimes to further his ambitions. In the Stephen Sondheim musical Assassins, Guiteau was portrayed with the enthusiastic optimism of a child. And that's how he's played here by Matthew McFaddy, who played Tom on Succession. It's a wholly committed, completely empathic portrayal. You can feel Guiteaud's emotions, his highs and his lows, instantly and deeply, often in the same scene as in this one, when we meet Guiteau for the first time, facing a panel and defending his behavior in 1880 after being incarcerated in the New York jail called the Tombs.

[Tim Robbins]

To speak candidly on behalf of the panel, Mr. Guiteau, you seem to us a liar and a fraud. We fail to see how you've served as anything more than a drain on good society. A drain? A drain on good society. That's. Well, no, that's not right. That's not how this is supposed to go. No, sir. You sit there and you ask me to prove my worth. Well, let me tell you, I sit now in the same position as any one of our forebears. Are we not a nation built wholly from rogues and migrants and free thinkers? Isn't that the whole point of this thing? Here and only here, a man can be anyone. He can amass a fortune. He can influence millions through words or action, his. His name ringing down through the ages. Not a drain. No, not a drain, but a credit. Hell, under the right conditions, he might even be made president.

[David Biancooli]

James Garfield, on the other hand, has no such ambitions. He's a congressman representing Ohio, but spends most of his time back home. He's asked to do a favor for a fellow Ohio politician to nominate him at the upcoming Republican National Convention. In Chicago. Garfield's nominating speech, though, is so inspirational, the deadlocked convention eventually adds his name to the potential nominees. On the 36th ballot, Garfield emerges as the Republican frontrunner, a fact that amuses Senator James Blaine, played by Bradley Whitford.

[Tim Robbins]

It's yours, Congressman. You didn't ask me if I wanted it. Everyone wants it.

[David Biancooli]

Bradley Whitford from the original West Wing TV series is featured at the moment in another Netflix political drama as the first gentleman on the new season of the Diplomat. He has more to do as this four part miniseries goes on, and so do many of the other supporting players. Two in particular are worth spotlighting. Nick Offerman as Chester Allen. Arthur is cartoonish and bullying when it's called for and sensitive when that's called for. And he's perfect in every scene. And Betty Gilpin as Garfield's wife Lucretia. He calls her Crete is perfect too. You might wonder why Gilpin, after starring in American Primeval and Glow, is playing such a relatively small role, even one that's so dignified and independent. But her scenes with Shannon as Garfield are lovely, as in this rare moment, alone, sitting on their porch after he's returned with his party's presidential nomination.

[Tim Robbins]

Sitting here with you on this porch, reading our books in peace, it's my favorite thing. Then why go to Chicago and stand up and give that damned speech? Because nobody was saying what needed to be said. Not a one of them. I waited. I waited. I hoped just one other man in that hall would stand up and tell the truth. I swear to God, Creed, if that would have happened, I'd kept my mouth shut. But now I have to consider the possibility that I might be able to, to fix all the things that terrify me about this country. I mean, what if you and I could actually make a difference?

[David Biancooli]

But at another point in Death by Lightning, Gilpin's character explodes into a whole new gear, altering the course of history along the way. It's a moment that makes it clear why Gilpin took the role. The series is created by Mike Makowski, based on the book Destiny of the Republic by Candice Millard. Among its executive producers are David Benioff and D.B. weiss, who brought the Game of Thrones and Three Body Problem to television. And now they've all brought to TV a dated history lesson that seems not at all dated today. Death by Lightning is full of recognizable arrogance, political, social, medical, and also contains recognizable strains of both optimism and hopelessness. Those, by the way, all were central themes in the musical Assassins, which included the actual song Charles Guiteau composed to sing on the gallows just before his execution. The song is performed in part in Death by Lightning, but I'll close with the Broadway version sung by Denis o' Hare as Guiteau. Assassins is an outstanding musical, just as Death by Lightning is outstanding television.

[Tanya Moseley]

David B. And Cooley reviewed the new Netflix miniseries Death by Lightning.

[Tim Robbins]

I am going to the Lordy I am so glad I am going. Lord, I am so glad. I have unified my party. I have saved my country. I shall be remembered. I am going to the Lord.

[David Biancooli]

E.

[Tanya Moseley]

Look on the bright side, not.

[David Biancooli]

On the sad side.

[Tanya Moseley]

Tomorrow on FRESH air, nutritionist Marion Nestle had to completely revise her groundbreaking book what to eat 20 years later, thanks to changes in what and how we eat, like the prevalence of ultra processed foods and the popularity of food delivery. Nestle guides us through today's supermarket me maze and the influences that determine what's on our plate. I hope you can join us. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with special thanks to Jason Revey in Sheboygan with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Moseley.

[Tim Robbins]

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