Tonya Mosley (3:52)

Well, one of the ways that it's affected your life is that you're now a name. It's very few times, I mean, where we've been able to name people who set the worlds behind the movies. We're often talking to the performers or we're talking to the directors or the producers. But as a costume designer, especially for Wicket, I mean, it's such an integral part of the storyline. And right from the start of this second film, we're watching your work. We're watching these two women step into their new Personas. Glinda as the Good Witch, Elphaba as the Wicked Witch. And the costumes are really working to tell that story. Elphaba's elaborate dress from the first film, at the end, it's now shredded into a tunic. And Glenda is wearing this blue and lavender instead of that signature pink. Walk me through what you were trying to communicate with those opening looks.

Paul Tazewell (4:47)

I see my work as a costume designer to be one of a storyteller, you know, And I'm telling a silent story that reveals itself adjacent to the performances of the characters throughout these two beautiful films. You know, I was giving context to what their backstory was. I mean, you know, for each of our principal characters, Elphaba and Glinda, where they came from. With Elphaba, we have been left at the very end of the first film, Wicked Part 1, with Defying Gravity, and she's in her very best dress, dressed to meet the wizard for the first time. And she's also paired that with her pointed hat. And when she jumps out of the window with the velvet cape that she's added on and her broom. We realize that she's completely self empowered. I mean, she has arrived and has taken hold of her own power. So to enter into the beginning of the Wicked for good, we get this sense that she has never really gone back to society. She's stayed in exile. And a way of expressing that was to keep her in the same dress. But because she has been out there, you know, she's advocating for animals, saving animals really, and taking down lines of guards that, you know, we see at the very beginning where they're all laying the yellow brick road. She has become a huge force and, you know, kind of a superhero. So I wanted to relay that with her silhouette, but also to show the weathering of her garment. So it's the same cape that we saw at the end of Wicked Part 1 in Defying Gravity. You know, the lining has come out of it, it's starting to fray, and it just adds to the texture of who she is. The same with her coat, the sweeping coat that she's upcycled from a raincoat. But the idea that she has taken just a few things into the forest and then she's recreating herself as this heroic image paired with the pants that we have and also her knee high boots. So, you know, in setting that up, I'm making choices about what is the silhouette going to be, how does it potentially align or become nostalgic of the 1939 film and that Wicked Witch of the west, so that we're always threading, you know, all of these ideas of the wizard of Oz and Oz, you know, just the Ozian sensibility all together and wrapping it up in a way that makes sense and says something more, as I was saying, says something more about the characters as well.

Tonya Mosley (7:37)

You know, one of the things I'm so interested to know is, I mean, both of these films, 1 and 2, were shot simultaneously. And Cynthia Erivo was on the show a few weeks ago and she told us that she created scents. So she created perfumes, smells that she could help differentiate the days that she was shooting for each of the films since it was happening. For your role, you had to know Elphaba's entire journey before you started shooting. When you're designing across two films like that, knowing where a character ends up, how does that change the way you approach, I mean, really, the very first costume?

Paul Tazewell (8:18)

Well, it's the way that I approach any production. You know, if I was doing a musical, I would be figuring out my characters from the beginning to the end, because that's how the audiences are gonna experience them. And then I need to make choices that are consistent as I'm telling that story. The same for Wicked. It was about clothing and style and how the different groups, like the Munchkinlanders versus the Uplanders, which is where the Glinda's family is from, versus the Winkies or Keamoco, which is where Fiero is from. Each of those very specific sensibilities. But together, they help to define each other. I mean, they're consistent by, you know, silhouette. It's by, you know, the shapes of sleeves and the shapes of skirts and the kinds of textures that I use. I needed to make a world that would be plausible within itself so that you believe in it as an audience member. You're able to, you know, it doesn't, you know, I'm not going to throw, you know, a bunch of scenes with sneakers in it unless it's a very specific Asian sneaker, you know, because. And that's why, you know, everything in this world needed to be bespoke. I mean, it was all created specifically for this world.

Tonya Mosley (9:29)

How did you come to the decision to have Elphaba wear trousers?

Paul Tazewell (9:34)

Um, something happened just to my design brain when Jon M. Chu said that he was casting Cynthia Erivo. And this is after looking at a number of different Elphabas. And I was actually privy to some of those audition tapes just to see where his mind was, but to then see that he was thinking of putting Cynthia in that role. One, I had already worked with Cynthia in Harriet, and I knew her range. I mean, I knew I. You know, I fully understood her connection to clothing, how she develops a character. But I knew that she would be able to go to a place that would use the agility of wearing trousers as a means of athletic expression and power. The ability to move allowed for her to navigate the world in a way that was more expansive than being in a skirt and jacket all the time, which is how I set her up. I mean, she enters into the world of shiz dressed in black, you know, and that was another part of the equation was, why does she wear black? And there are many conversations that Jon M. Chu and I had the director, you know, around. How do we define why she is wearing black? And I made the decision that, well, she lost her mother very early in life. She was in mourning. So she wore that color, you know, signifying mourning. And then to adopt that as a way to pull herself apart from the rest of the community, which we see, you know, presented, you know, when she's a little girl and you know, how the other children in the neighborhood make fun of her. And that holding onto that armoring that's created by wearing black. It felt real in a way, because, you know, you think about high school students or young students who dress in black or in a very goth way to make themselves feel special or to, you know, create a separation from the rest of, you know, that might be hurting them, you know, just to create some significance in their personality.

Tonya Mosley (11:49)

This is so fascinating, what you're saying, because in that way, the black stands out. Because I would guess that black is one of the hardest colors to make visually interesting. But up against this colorful world, I mean, it feels like that texture and that detail in her costumes also show up in the black.

Paul Tazewell (12:08)

Thank you for mentioning that. I mean, that was, again, another element is that she's side by side with Galinda Glinda, who is always dressed in pink or in light tones. And they are often very feminine in feminine fabrics. Light, airy, elegant, beautiful. Those things that are desirable. I made the decision that there had to be balance. And then it just continues to expand. You know, I was talking about how Cynthia was cast. You know, it was the first time that a black woman had ever been cast in that role, which is surprising because the whole point of the story is that she is, you know, being ostracized or vilified or, you know, that she's othered because of the color of her skin. Now, it's a direct connection to, you know, the racial structure of, you know, even our country. There are so many similarities in the emotional story for a person of color and how that relates to Elphaba.

Tonya Mosley (13:12)

I want to ask you about something that fans have also noted. That there is one steamy, very intimate scene in the film between Elphaba, you know, where I'm going, and Fiyero, played by Jonathan Bailey. And Elphaba is wearing this long, gray, chunky wool sweater. It is such a specific choice.

Paul Tazewell (13:34)

Why? Just lately, people have talked about it, you know, they call it the sex cardigan. It came out of, you know, very literally an organic decision of what does Elphaba have access to and living alone. What choice would she make when she's, you know, looking for a robe, some way to be protective and warm. And the sweater is one of comfort. When you put someone in a cardigan or in a sweater, what you're doing is you're creating, you know, there are many different, you know, connections that we have. Sometimes it's a hand knit sweater. So it means, you know, you're connecting it. To the person who actually made it, you know, which might be a mother or a grandmother or an aunt. So that gives you comfort. You know, you think about a boyfriend sweater. And. And that, again, is. There's the idea of an oversized comfortable. Something that you could wrap in how it makes you feel. You know, that's. And, no, I mean, like.

Tonya Mosley (14:41)

But like, intimate time with the man that you've been secretly loving forever. To put on a sweater. What does it signify?

Paul Tazewell (14:49)

It's operating as her robe for that moment and for the, you know, her in exile. And she is making a softer choice alone in her surroundings of roots and vines and, you know, all the elements that are around her. And you can imagine that, you know, because she's crafting all of that. You know, she's got a loom in her live space, in her treehouse where she's weaving her own clothing. She's manifesting all these things from the elements that are around her. And the sweater is just in keeping with that. Now, indeed, you could say, well, you know, why wasn't it a black slinky peignoir? But where would she get, like. Why would she have that?

Tonya Mosley (15:37)

Where would she get that?

Paul Tazewell (15:38)

Right. Well, why would she even have it? Because it's not like she's. She's. At that moment, she's not thinking about vieiro, she's thinking about saving. I mean, she angsts some about the love that she has, but she's not expecting that he's going to arrive. And therefore she's got her special sexy peignoir that she'll pull out. I mean, that's very much in line with Glinda. But why would she have that? I think that it just follows through with reasonable choices that define who a character is and what is important for them, where their priorities are. And I felt like the underwear that we have her in, which is very sexy underwear, it's all knitted as well, and it's revealing of her skin. You know, it's short. You see her legs and her arms, her stomach, even to use both. And then they're together and they're actually using the robe as a blanket. So, again, it's a much more organic connection to clothing and how the characters relate to it.

Tonya Mosley (16:42)

It wouldn't be realistic that she'd have a little black lingerie in this forest. Yes.

Paul Tazewell (16:46)

As much as everyone wants her to have. Yes.

Tonya Mosley (16:49)

Okay, Paul, I wanna go back to your childhood, because the 1939 version of the wizard of Oz with Judy Garland, it's a tradition for many Families to watch it. And growing up, your family would watch it on Easter?

Paul Tazewell (17:05)

Absolutely.

Tonya Mosley (17:05)

Do you know why your family made it an Easter tradition to watch?

Paul Tazewell (17:10)

I think that that was when it actually played, you know, because we, you know, this was before there was VHS tapes, as I have it in my memory. It was annually that, you know, my three brothers, myself and my two parents would sit and we would experience, you know, the wizard of Oz. And it became very, you know, informative. I mean, it was, you know, for me as a designer, you know, the idea of visual magic. You know, when you think about most specifically going from sepia tone in Dorothy's house to Technicolor when she enters into Munchkinland, I mean, that's one of the most magical transitions that I've, you know, that I can remember. So, you know, I have that in my bank of imagery as I think about, you know, other projects that I'm designing. There are other films as well. I mean, if you think about Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory or you think about Mary Poppins or Cinderella, Disney, I mean, so at that time, all of those magical stories, all those movies were folded into our, you know, just our family culture, you know, and what we would watch for entertainment.

Tonya Mosley (18:24)

Were there things about the costuming in the wizard of Oz, even back then when you were a young boy that you noticed, for instance? I'll just say, you know, with Glinda the Good, it would be part of my daydreams to think about me dressed as her, you know, holding a little wand. I just wonder for little Paul, what were there any moments that you would think about?

Paul Tazewell (18:46)

Well, I dressed as Glinda. I mean. Yeah, no, but I think that I was transfixed by that costume. Just to understand what's going on in that, you know, that fairy princess dress. And, you know, it's very classic. You know, it is an archetype of who Glinda is, but then who. You know, when you think of the Good Witch of the north, that's the image that comes up. It's this bell shaped skirt, tight waist, full sleeves, sheer, lots of sheer layers and then sparkle and, you know, so just understanding. So what are those qualities that allow for us to think this about this character and then to adopt that and transform it into the Glinda that I created. The pink bubble dress that is actually Glinda's moment of coming to power.

Tonya Mosley (19:45)

Our guest today is Oscar winning costume designer, Paul Tazewell. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley and this is FRESH air. On the next throughline from npr, the mother of Thanksgiving. If every state should join in Union Thanksgiving on the 24th of this month, would it not be a renewal, renewed pledge of love and loyalty to the Constitution of the United States? Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. So I just want to check in really quick. Are you okay or are you suffering from sleep deprivation, a stack of bills or political propaganda? If so, you may be stuck in the parent trap on the It's Been a Minute podcast. We're diving headfirst into the anxieties of modern parenting and how that trickles out to all of us. Even if you don't have children, come find some relief. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts on.

Paul Tazewell (20:53)

Wait, Wait, don't tell me. Famous actors remember their days of obscurity, like when Pedro Pascal remembered the stress of being a white waiter, the logistical labor of meeting everyone's needs in the right manner.

Tonya Mosley (21:06)

You know, the act one, the water, act two, the drink. Listen to Wait, Wait in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Molly Sivi Nesberg, digital producer at Fresh air.

Paul Tazewell (21:22)

And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.

Tonya Mosley (21:24)

One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter, and I'm a newsletter fan.

Paul Tazewell (21:28)

I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations and Molly Picks timely highlights from the archive.

Tonya Mosley (21:36)

It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive, so subscribe@whyy.org fresh air, and.

Paul Tazewell (21:46)

Look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.

Tonya Mosley (21:50)

Your mother taught you to sew when you were around 9 years old?

Paul Tazewell (21:53)

That's right.

Tonya Mosley (21:53)

What made you want to learn?

Paul Tazewell (21:55)

You know, I think that I was always transfixed by crafts and working with my hands. And my mother, you know, I was always, you know, right at her side, you know, as she would draw and paint or early on in my life, she was making puppets and doing puppet shows with her sister and with my older cousins. They would create these puppet shows for libraries in and around Akron, for the schools and for the church. And so I was really fully connected and engaged with what they were doing and that kind of crafting. And so in some way that fed into my desire to create, to work with my hands. I think that creating clothing was just the next step. You know, my mother had a Singer sewing machine and she would set it up and she would make costumes and clothing for us, you know, my brothers and myself also. She was making things for herself. And then, you know, it was just a skill that I wanted to have so that I could start to create things for myself. So I would make dashikis and different kinds of clothing, you know, shorts and, you know, it's just a way of, you know, it was an activity.

Tonya Mosley (23:06)

It really sounds like your family was pretty creative in one way or another. It seems like almost everyone was an artist.

Paul Tazewell (23:13)

We were definitely surrounded within my family. I mean, my grandmother was a painter. My dad, you know, also he loved model trains. So I remember for a period of time, he had this huge model train table that, you know, where you would have little model houses, you'd create a little town, and the train would ride around it. And then, you know, there was the element of live production. I mean, they would take us to productions of musicals that were in the Akron and Cleveland area. They encouraged us to join the drama club. And my brothers and myself, we were all Suzuki, violin or cello students. So culture was really big. My grandmother had studied at Oberlin Music, and she was a piano teacher and piano player. And so it was just a part of our family culture that we were expressive in that way.

Tonya Mosley (24:10)

Your great aunt was also the president of Bennett College.

Paul Tazewell (24:14)

That's right.

Tonya Mosley (24:14)

Which is an HBCU in Greensboro.

Paul Tazewell (24:16)

That's right, yeah. She was there when the sit ins happened. You know, so she was very much connected with A and T and, you know, just how the. Because Benedict is a girls school, and A and T was a boys school at that time, or largely male. So they. They would work together. But at that time, you know, there was just a lot of navigating what was going on in the city and, you know, how to be an activist. You know, at that time, it was, you know, a serious time.

Tonya Mosley (24:49)

I'm thinking about the aesthetics for the time because, okay, when you were a very young boy, the civil rights movement was so defined by that visual language of respectability. So the suits and the press dresses and the carefully composed presentation. But by the time you were a teenager, I mean, there was a whole different aesthetic that was emerging. And where did you fall for yourself? Where did you see that? Where did you sit with your aesthetics? And also the way that maybe you were thinking about it.

Paul Tazewell (25:22)

I think that I was engaging with both, really. You know, I remember when my mother cut her hair to become an Afro, so making the decision that she was no longer going to press her hair and grow it long, but she was going to cut it and have it curl up into an afro and go with a natural style. And my grandmother was, you know, completely against it. I was against it even is what, you know, it was like because of that change. But then, you know, that was a. I mean, you know, I think that it was just a romantic alignment with, you know, that long, straight hair and just how much white culture had infused itself into how black people were making choices about how they were gonna show up. But wearing jeans to school. I was in grade school at a time where you weren't allowed to wear jeans to school and girls weren't allowed to wear slacks unless they. Unless it was snowing outside and they just needed to walk to school and then they would change out of them. So I experienced all of that and then that shift into a much more casual style. But I was still brought up by grandparents and parents who, you know, my dad was a research chemist at Firestone, and he dressed in a suit every day and tie. We all dressed up for church, you know, so there was a formality about what we were taught. But, you know, how I design is very much informed by the portraits of my family through the ages, you know, from the turn of the century and before, up until that contemporary time. And seeing how my family chose to present themselves, which was usually in a formal way, especially if it was going to be for a photograph.

Tonya Mosley (27:11)

Right. Do you have a lot of photographic evidence that you guys have a lot of?

Paul Tazewell (27:15)

I do, I do, yeah. We've kept a lot of it. Yeah. You know, and that has informed, you know, when I remember, you know, a photograph of my great grandmother and my great grandfather and my grandmother as a little girl and grandaunt that you were talking about, who was president at Bennett, it was a beautiful turn of the century family with, you know, my great grandmother had this large hat, and my great grandfather had this amazing homburg on. And, you know, so that sparked my interest in period clothing in my home and then how it expanded into researching, you know, so what was. You know, she was wearing a corset, obviously, and her clothes were created in a very specific way. And my great grandfather's clothes were tailored in a very specific way according to the period, because they were dressing to armor themselves up for the world. I mean, they wanted to be seen in a certain light. Kind of black families who have arrived, they've migrated from the south and they've now arrived to the north, and they are respectable people with dignity. And the idea of, you've got one pair of shoes and you make sure those shoes are shined when you're going out into the world just downtown, because you want to be seen in a certain light by both the black community and the white community. You're gonna put forward your dignity by what you're wearing on your body. And that became a really powerful message for me. And I still think about it. That's how I show up. I show up in a very intentional way.

Tonya Mosley (29:00)

You show up in a very simple black way. You love black clothing.

Paul Tazewell (29:03)

I do tend to. Well, I try to, you know, that energy that it takes to put together clothing I use professionally. You know, so if I can have a uniform and I know that, you know, I know what I'm gonna wear when I go out. You know, lately it's been a navy blue turtleneck and navy blue trousers. It's tone on tone. I know that I can look good and not have to worry about being fashion forward. I mean, it's only if I'm doing a red carpet or something like that that I want to make sure that, you know, I show up in something that makes a mark. Otherwise I kind of want to recede.

Tonya Mosley (29:42)

Well, the thing about it is, and I hope I'm not overstating this or stepping into a territory that I don't really know, but when you were talking about Elphaba wearing all black and the reasons why and what it signified, but in many ways I was just wondering, is that how you think about yourself and your own style?

Paul Tazewell (30:01)

Well, I do have to say that Elphaba is the main character of Wicked. The Wicked films that I align myself with. There's a sensibility about her and how she walks through life both as an introvert and one that is a listener. Also, she's with Nessa Rose. She's a of part people pleaser in a way. You know, she's working to combat the fact that she's been othered by taking care of other people, making sure that other people are okay. You know, before Wicked was even in my life. And that's a part of my own personality. But then the draw to armor is definitely a part of my personality because I dress according to how I want to be seen. Whether it's an interview with a person that I've never met or, you know, it's going out on a red carpet. You know, I'm dressing in a way very conscious of how I might potentially be seen. And that's what all of us do, really, which is not as intentional. We're not thinking about it quite as much. You might say, well, you know, I like this. I don't like that. This is my style. This isn't my style. But you're also making choices about how you or what that is is making choices about how you want to show up for a specific moment.

Tonya Mosley (31:23)

You know, as a black man, I mean, you're hyper visible. And I mean that literally because when you're a black man in predominantly white spaces, you stand out, you're seen. It's just what happens, you know. So that has to factor into how you understand the way people interpret what you wear and how you present yourself and what you say. Do you remember when you became conscious of that?

Paul Tazewell (31:49)

Mm, early, early on, maybe junior high. You know, I wasn't aware of, you know, growing up in Akron and, you know, Akron, it has its racist moments areas, you know, just how that dynamic, especially when I was coming up, I mean, there are certain areas that you didn't go into. And there was also the time that, you know, the original roots were the novel is created and then the television series happened. So that was in our heart.

Tonya Mosley (32:20)

Oh, for the roots.

Paul Tazewell (32:21)

For Roots. And all this is folding in. And I'm trying to figure out who am I and how can I be true to myself and embrace all that I am drawn to? Because I was operating with two different things. One, that it was it tended to be more feminine than masculine. It tended, you know, because I was drawing and painting and making puppets and creating clothing. So all those were seen as more feminine. And then, you know, I couldn't get around being a black man or a black boy. You know, that was how I was seen as well. So, you know, navigating that, you know, when you think about it, when I think about it, you know, just sitting here with you, it's like, well, that informs why I'm doing what I'm doing because I'm actually trying to control how see other people before they've said anything.

Tonya Mosley (33:18)

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking to Oscar, Tony and Emmy winning costume designer Paul Tazewell. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH air. I'm Rachel Martin. Apple Podcasts named my conversation with author Jason Reynolds on Wildcard, one of the top 10 podcast episodes of 2025.

Paul Tazewell (33:40)

I am a crybaby of all crybabies. It is my favorite thing about myself.

Tonya Mosley (33:46)

You can watch or listen to that wild card conversation now on the NPR app or on YouTube @NPRWildcard.

Paul Tazewell (33:55)

Hey, everyone, it's Mike And Ian, we're the hosts of how to Do Everything. And on this week's episode, a listener calls us wanting to cure her car sickness.

Tonya Mosley (34:03)

Now, some shows might call a doctor.

Paul Tazewell (34:06)

But we call Kevin Bacon and Kenny G. And they actually sort of help.

Tonya Mosley (34:10)

Help, sort of.

Paul Tazewell (34:11)

Listen to the how to Do Everything podcast on the NPR app or wherever.

Tonya Mosley (34:15)

You get your podcasts.

Paul Tazewell (34:18)

Making time for the news is important, but when you need a break, we've got you covered on All Songs Considered. NPR's music podcast. Think of it like a music discovery show. A well deserved escape with friends. And yeah, some serious music insight. I'm gonna keep it real. I have no idea what the story is. If I hear new episodes of All Songs Considered every Tuesday, wherever you get podcasts.

Tonya Mosley (34:41)

Okay, you have been living in the world of Oz for a really long time in various different ways. We talked about the wizard of Oz as a child and in high school, you designed costumes for your school's production of the Wiz.

Paul Tazewell (34:55)

That's right.

Tonya Mosley (34:56)

What do you remember about that experience and what drew you to design rather than to perform?

Paul Tazewell (35:04)

At that time, I had not let go of performance. But, you know, in 1978, the Wiz came out as a film.

Tonya Mosley (35:12)

Yep, that's right.

Paul Tazewell (35:13)

The one with Diana Ross and Michael Jackson. Nipsey Russell was in it, and Richard Pryor and Lena Horne. And that was hugely formative for me visually, you know, to see, again, to see black faces in this epic film rendered in great style and amazing music by Quincy Jones. He did all the orchestrations for that. It blew my mind, you know, to see that kind of expression of disco iconography represented as the Emerald City world, you know, because I knew the wizard of Oz from 1939, but then to see it told in our, you know, my cultural language was, you know, life changing. It was like, oh, yeah, well, of course, you know, this all works beautifully, you know, or like the, I think they call them the winkies in the film. Those people in the factory that are working for Evileen, when they unzip out of their bodies and the skin falls away and then they're these beautiful dance theater Harlem dancers, and you see their brown skin and, you know, just, you know, that that was, again, mind blowing. It was magical then because I went to a magnet school in Akron. Part of that was that there was a performing arts program within that school. And at that time, I wanted to be an actor, singer, dancer. That was my hope and drive. And I found theater through a production of west side Story that I was in maybe two years before. So at 16, my teacher, Arnold Thomas, he realized that I was very interested in costume design and he offered me the project of designing all the costumes for this production of the Wiz that they were going to do in the spring. Now, I also auditioned for the Wiz as well, and I was given the role of the wizard or the Wiz in that production as well.

Tonya Mosley (37:16)

Yeah.

Paul Tazewell (37:17)

So I was designing the costumes and also in the production at the same time. Yeah. But, you know, I was in heaven. You know, I loved creating these fantasy characters through my lens. Now, it was greatly informed. When I think about what I created, I was very much inspired by, or, you know, you could say, you know, copying the film, you know, but it was, you know, it transformed into what we could actually manifest. Thankfully, my, you know, my mother, my dad, my brothers, we all, you know, they all chipped in. Oh, it was a family affair at the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, much of that time I was creating them on my own.

Tonya Mosley (37:59)

Were you creating, like designing and then sewing them and putting it all. Everything.

Paul Tazewell (38:04)

Yeah. The only thing that I didn't sew was my white suit that my mother made for me as the Wiz. So I, you know, she made my white suit. It was a double breasted suit. I love, I love. It was a shark skin suit and a white cape with green lining.

Tonya Mosley (38:21)

Oh, my God.

Paul Tazewell (38:22)

You know, there was a gold lame pleated cape and dress that was designed that I designed for Glinda. That was my continuing evolution of problem solving and the creation of worlds that I continued to fall in love with. Once I graduated. I ended up going to Pratt Institute to study fashion. And the reason I wanted to be in New York was because I wanted to continue to pursue an acting and dancing career. But I didn't create a bond with the world of fashion at that time. So decided that I really wanted to get back into costume design. And for that I went to North Carolina School of the Arts in Winston Salem, North Carolina. And while I was there, I made the conscious decision that I would put myself whole hog into becoming a costume designer because I was still grappling with how can I be seen in the way that I want to be seen as a performer? You know, how can I get the roles of a leading man in a musical on Broadway in the way that I want to do that and will I ever be able to? Because the climate at that time was just. It didn't feel as inclusive. It wasn't.

Tonya Mosley (39:50)

Well, let's slow down a little bit because you left Akron for New York City. This was around 82. I mean, what a time to be in the city. You're 18, you're away from home for the first time. You're discovering yourself, but you also are kind of coming to grips with maybe you wouldn't be you won't be a performer. Maybe you will go into this other direction. Was there something pivotal that happened during that time period that really solidified that for you?

Paul Tazewell (40:17)

I mean, one of the things was just how difficult it was to, you know, cause I was trying to double major. And it seemed like at every turn I wasn't able to merge both of them together. And what was really encouraged was my design ability, meaning I was getting a lot of encouragement. I was excelling very quickly. It was in the direction of costumes. And I made a decision my junior year that I would devote myself to costume design and live vicariously through other characters, you know, where I might not be cast in certain roles because of how I looked as a designer. I could be anyone. I could live through that process of character development and what they would wear. It just so happens that I wasn't gonna be on stage playing the role.

Tonya Mosley (41:17)

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking to Paul Tazewell, the Oscar winning costume designer whose work includes Hamilton, west side Story and the new film Wicked for Good. We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH air. Do you have a question you just.

Paul Tazewell (41:33)

Don'T feel like Googling? We're Ian and Mike, hosts of how to Do Everything. We can help answer all of your most pressing questions, like can I cook lasagna in my dishwasher? Where do you park your blimp?

Tonya Mosley (41:46)

Or the timeless classic what's that smell? Ooh.

Paul Tazewell (41:51)

Listen to the how to Do Everything podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Thorne. So not that long ago I stepped into our studio here and I did 25 interviews back to back to back. Patton oswalt. Hi, Patton. Mr. Rob Cordry. As always, Cameron Esposito. And this week you'll hear a taste of it. That's Bullseye. Find us in the NPR app, MaximumFun.org or wherever you get your podcasts. You care about what's happening in the world. Stay informed with NPR's State of the World podcast. In just a few minutes, we take you to stories around the globe. You might hear the latest developments in world conflicts or about what global events mean. For the price of your coffee, listen to the State of the world podcast from NPR.

Tonya Mosley (42:43)

Your Broadway debut was in 1996.

Paul Tazewell (42:46)

But.

Tonya Mosley (42:47)

But Hamilton in 2015 was the moment when the world saw your work. And the costumes, as in all of your productions, do so much storytelling. The way the revolutionaries are earth tones and the British are in jewel tones, the way that final dress is both like a mourning and a triumph. And how did you and Lin Manuel Miranda approach the visual language of that show?

Paul Tazewell (43:16)

I mean, I would give it up to. And I love working with Lynne. We worked together on in the Heights first. But I also want to throw in and acknowledge Thomas Kail, who was the director of both in the Heights and of Hamilton, because it was Thomas Kahl that I was directly engaging with for the overall production. You know, I had a large body of work that I did between Bring into Noise, Bring Into Funk and Hamilton. And all of that work defines where I was creatively as a designer. To be able to step into Hamilton and do what you were suggesting, which is being in control of the imagery that I was using as it relates to these characters that we know, you know, our forefathers and the world around them, but to show it through the lens of a modern, you know, a modern voice and making choices about silhouette and very directly research silhouette and where it's useful and movement as well. And that's where my, you know, my background in dance, that's, you know, I'm always infusing that into my design because it just becomes part of the performance. You know, the extension of a costume or fabric from the body and how it connects to and is reactive of how the body moves is paramount for me, because you get an emotional result from that. When you think about west side Story, let's say, or even in Hamilton, where, you know, you have the winner's ball, and because the turntable is turning and the women are moving in a circular manner, the. The skirts then sweep around in a way that becomes very romantic. And the ensemble of ladies in those skirts, so they've gone from being soldiers into being these women in this ball. And when they're lifted up and they're swirling around, it creates this really magical romantic moment that you are swept into. And that's in support of the three primary women that we're looking at, which is the Schuyler sisters, and then experiencing Eliza's, you know, her transformation, and then we go into Angelica and how she remembers that moment, you know, so all those things are very visceral for me, and I become very emotional about it.

Tonya Mosley (45:55)

Are there any funny moments, though, when you thought a garment might work out. And then you practice it and you learn not so much. This is actually not gonna work.

Paul Tazewell (46:03)

You know, I know my life is full of that. But it's, you know, you have to have trial and error, you know. And so I build into the process a period of R and D to fail, you know, to make bad choices. There are probably seven different versions of the Elphaba hat that I created.

Tonya Mosley (46:24)

Wow.

Paul Tazewell (46:25)

One because I wanted to figure it out and I wanted for it to be able to collapse. I wanted for it to live within the design rules that we had created, for the film to somehow be a very original version of a hat. Was it gonna be straight and pointed up, you know, in a symmetrical way, or was it going to curve and, you know, just, you know, a little blip is as Jon M. Chu would describe how he was planning on starting the film, it was gonna be a close up of the hat that you really couldn't see what it was. You really didn't know if it was a mountain or a building or what that structure was. So that defined why it spirals around. But then the spiral became definitive of everything around. It resonates throughout the film. And you see that usage of spiral defines our world of spirit.

Tonya Mosley (47:24)

Paul Tazewell, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.

Paul Tazewell (47:28)

Oh, so great to talk to you as well. Thank you.

Tonya Mosley (47:32)

Paul Tazewell is an Oscar, Emmy and Tony Award winning costume designer known for his work on Hamilton, west side Story and the new film Wicked for Good. Tomorrow on FRESH air, Pulitzer Prize winning photojournalist Lindsey Addario. A new documentary explores the intersection of her all consuming and dangerous work in conflict zones and her life at home as a wife and a mother. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram nprfreshair. FRESH air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakunde and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly CB Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show with Terry Gross. I'm Tonya Mosley.

Paul Tazewell (48:37)

Public radio is as American as apple pie. This Giving Tuesday is our first without federal funding. We need you to keep this American tradition alive. Give now@donate.NPR.org.

Tonya Mosley (48:53)

Keeping up with the news can feel like a 24 hour job. Luckily, it is our job. Every hour on the NPR News now podcast, we take the latest, most important stories happening and we package them into five minute episodes so you can easily squeeze them in between meetings and on your way to that thing. Listen to the NPR News now podcast now. Latin music has never been bigger, but it's always been big on all Latino. Fifteen years in, we continue celebrating Latinidad through a music lens, transcending borders through Ritmo. Get to know artists from La Cultura on a deeper level and throw some new Latin music wrecks into your rotation. Listen to Alt Latino in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.