← From the Ground Up
From the Ground Up
Beyond Barriers: One Business’s Mission to Revolutionize Accessible Travel and Build Inclusive Communities - FROM INC. STUDIO AND CHASE FOR BUSINESS
00:30:50
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- [00:01]
A
Hi and welcome to this special podcast series, the Experience in partnership with Chase for Business. I'm your host Ben Baer with Ink Custom Studio. In this episode I'll have a conversation with Kelly Twitchell, the San Diego based founder and CEO of accesstrax, a company that makes outdoor mat solutions to provide access to places like beaches for those with mobility challenges. Joining Kelly will be Pete Jackson from Chase for Business as we discuss some key topics for small business owners, including scaling your business after initial success, key financial areas to manage, and more. But first, I sit down with Chase for Business Kelly Shoup to get the latest economic insights for small businesses as we approach the end of 2025. Kelly, thanks for joining me. As California Division Director for Chase Business Banking, you cover one of the largest regions for small businesses in the country. I'm interested to get your perspective as there's been a lot of challenges going on nationally with economic policy and so interested to hear what your perspective is and Chase's is in terms of the economic picture regionally. What can you share with us?
- [00:55]
B
Yeah. So first, Ben, thank you so much for having me. You know, we see that business owners are cautiously optimistic with 65% expecting revenue increase in the next year. That said, we know that there are a lot of challenges that small businesses face with things like rising interest rates, labor and workforce gaps, our geopolitical uncertainty. Regardless though, our small businesses are super resilient. They adapt really well. We know that they're strategizing not only for short term success, but planning for the long run as well as and.
- [01:25]
A
That'S been a little bit of a through line. I've seen the rest of the year, which is overall year which has been resiliency. Change is a constant regardless of what the year is, regardless of what's going on. You have to be resilient within that. But this year specifically, it seems to be more of a focus. So I'm guessing as we look towards sort of areas of strength, is resiliency sort of one of the key areas of entrepreneurial and business strength that you're seeing? And then what are some of the current challenges that you see kind of coming in the next three to six months from what you're hearing for us.
- [01:55]
B
We see that technology plays a big part in the success of businesses moving forward. We know digital adoption will be key at this. You know, you look at digital commerce and marketing, e commerce, we know that remote work is becoming more and more popular. San Diego luckily benefits from top universities and a huge tech workforce. So it helps bridge the gap in labor just a little bit. And then we also know that businesses that embrace technology earlier stay in front of competition as well as are able to really kind of forecast the changes that their clients want them to make.
- [02:30]
A
Yeah, I mean, we've heard about AI a lot, obviously, but that's part of a pattern of digital transformation that small businesses have been undergoing for the last few years. Is this just a reinforcement of that sort of challenge, but also opportunity for small business owners out there? Is that digital adoption and digital transformation is sort of key for your business? You should be thinking about it.
- [02:50]
B
I think both sides. Yes, I know that technology changes so rapidly and you know, we get to a point, we think we're comfortable. We can never get comfortable. We need to make sure that we continue to evolve with the changes in technology and the environment that we're in. And Chase for business wants to be a partner with the small businesses that we serve to help inform them and educate them and be a partner to them in those changes.
- [03:14]
A
And so as you look out, you know, in the sort of future, in the next sort of 6 months ish range, because looking further than that is always a little bit harder, especially these days. What's your business outlook for California and the region as we head into the final quarter of the year and as businesses are starting to plan for 2026?
- [03:30]
B
Yeah, so we see growth opportunities in clean energy, digital commerce, healthcare, innovation, advanced manufacturing. San Diego has the opportunity to take advantage of cross border trade as well as biotech. And they have an amazing small business startup culture here as well. The advice that I would give is really to get connected, join networks, find mentors, keep your ear to the ground so that you stay in tune with what's happening in your community. And again, Chase wants to be a partner to our small businesses here and across California to make sure that we share the resources and the knowledge that we have to help them run and grow their business.
- [04:08]
A
Staying connected, it's an important bit of advice for every small business owner. Sometimes it can feel a little isolating. Kelly Shoup, thanks for sharing your insights with us and we'll look forward to seeing how the rest of the year plays out.
- [04:19]
B
Thank you so much.
- [04:21]
A
And now I'm joined by Pete Jackson, executive director of Chase for Business's Coaching for Impact program, and Kelly Twitchell, the founder and CEO of accesstrax. Her San Diego based company designs lightweight portable mat systems that help people with mobility challenges access outdoor spaces with uneven ground like beaches or gravel. Peter, Kelly, welcome to you both.
- [04:40]
C
Thank you.
- [04:41]
D
Thank you. Thanks for having us.
- [04:42]
A
So, Kelly, I'd like you to start out, just share with our audience a little bit about what is accesstrax and what was the inspiration for your business.
- [04:49]
C
Yeah, absolutely. So AccessTracks is based here in Southern California, and as you mentioned, we have a portable pathway that empowers people with physical disabilities to access outdoor spaces. And that got started because in 2016, I was an occupational therapy student in grad school here in SoCal. And, you know, what do people do as a popular pastime down here? Well, a lot of them surf. And while I was not a surfer, which is an interesting point sometimes, point of contention on this is that in school, we had a project and we had kind of just a really wide open prompt of create something to help people with disabilities. And my classmate and I said we would love to help local adaptive surfers cross the sand with better independence and dignity. So my professor was a surfer, and that's kind of how that all kind of came to be. But this school project, we wanted to create a portable pathway to help provide stability for that. That sand, that uneven terrain, which was such a barrier to their participation in going into the ocean. And when we had volunteered with some Adaptive Surfers in 2016, with our, you know, I'm not gonna lie, it was kind of an ugly prototype, right? It doesn't look pretty, but the surfers didn't care what it looked like. They didn't care what it was made out of. They cared how it made them feel. Right? That sense of independence and that sense of, you know, we're able to cross the sand in our own mobility device, whether that be a wheelchair or a walker, and get to this surf competition zone and get to the water and do what we love? And so that day in 2016, this school project, which was, you know, a prototype, no longer could be just that. It needed to be brought to market. And that's where my stubbornness, my passion, and my drive for learning kind of pushed me to say, this can't just go in the closet, and I move on with my life, that I can make an impact, and I can help millions of people around the world have better access to the outdoors. So that's kind of like our inception story of kind of how this came to be.
- [06:59]
A
But you were planning to be an occupational therapist. That was the plan. At what point did you say, all right, this class clearly impacted you and sort of set you on this path, but was there a moment or moments that all of a sudden said, okay, you know what occupational therapy is still interesting and important to me, but I really want to pursue this piece.
- [07:17]
C
Yeah, for me, it was really just, honestly, I mean, it's that simple. It was that day we volunteered and there were five adaptive surfers there with our, you know, prototype. And they looked at me in my eyes and they said, we need more of this. And I just, I felt that deeply. And to kind of take a step back to why I care so deeply about the disability community in general is that my mom had a disability when. When I was 12 years old and my mom was only 52, I woke up one morning to paramedics coming up the stairs in our home, and my.
- [07:51]
B
Mom.
- [07:54]
C
Couldn'T get up, couldn't talk, and come to find out she had had a massive stroke in the middle of the night in her sleep. And so, quite literally, she woke up with a disability one day. And I still get goosebumps, like, thinking about all. It brings back all the emotions of. Well, all of a sudden, it's not just the individual that has a disability, it's the whole family, their whole network, their friends, understanding how to navigate this new normal for the individual and how can they continue to go through life and hopefully rehabilitate. Right. Which is what occupational therapy, physical therapy, speech therapy can, can help do, but also what else is out there. Right. Recreation, getting back to work, these things that we take for granted every day. And so that's this moment of when I'm in my grad school project of, yes, I need to do this. It kind of that drive started when I was 12. Right. So it's kind of like taking what happened in your life and you come to this moment, this pivotal moment of, I can make an impact and I'm going to go for it, even if it's scary or challenging.
- [09:01]
A
Yeah. And I imagine that impact is important when you're in occupational therapy because it's individuals and making an impact there. But this business has ability to impact more than that.
- [09:12]
C
Absolutely. I mean, for me, it was, well, you know, I could stay as a therapist, which was an amazing career. And I did work full time as a therapist for a number of years and then went part time as I was transitioning to full time running access tracks. But as a therapist working in a clinical setting, I can maybe help 10 patients a day on average in my local community. Usually it's face to face. Right. But as an entrepreneur, especially with this type of business, I can make an impact on people's lives that are in different countries than me, that speak a different language. Right. But we all speak the language of, I want to participate in outdoor recreation or I want to do what is meaningful to me. And so that was really exciting for me.
- [09:54]
A
Yeah. And having that sort of passion for what you do is something consistent with the INC audience and other founders that we talk to. Is having that passion really sort of helps, you know, bridge those moments when being an entrepreneur is challenging at times. Pete, let me bring you in to talk about this, because you met Kelly at a pitch competition that you were judging locally. What was it about Kelly and her story and her business story that made you want to be a part of it?
- [10:18]
D
I remember the day it was an accelerator. I was asked to be a judge. And when Kelly came up and she spoke, the things that stuck with me were one. She was extremely articulate, extremely passionate. But where she was most brilliant was her advocacy. And it almost felt, I'd say, political in a sense, where advocating for disability was very important to her. And that's what drew me to her. And afterwards, I went up and I introduced myself, and what I wanted to know was why? Why was she so passionate? It was more than just a business. And as she shared her story, I was intrigued. And that is what I wanted to work with her about, to amplify that and have that come alongside her business, because I felt it was so important and so authentic.
- [10:57]
A
Kelly, I mean, communicating your passion sometimes is a challenging thing. I mean, this is a personal story for you. Your mom obviously was disabled due to the stroke that she had. Did you have to work on sort of how to sort of tell your story? Because this is a jump from, hey, I have a class where I got to build maybe a business idea to. Now I got to go out and really tell the story of my business, which isn't necessarily part of occupational therapy training.
- [11:19]
C
Yeah, you got it right. I would say. It actually took me a number of years to really easily and openly talk about the reason why I was so passionate about my mom having a stroke and how that shaped who we all are, you know, as a family. And I think I was not ne. I wasn't embarrassed about it. I just felt maybe a little shy to talk about that. And it still was kind of a wound, you know, feeling that when you talk about the story, sometimes you really kind of feel it deeply and it affects you emotionally. Well, I realized that that can be your superpower, right, Is that if you're able to be vulnerable, that draws people in, and they know you're authentic, they know you care, and they know why you're passionate And I think that Pete mentioned that, you know, I don't think in that pitch competition I mentioned that my mom had a stroke. I don't remember if I had at that point yet gotten to the stage where I'm able to openly talk about it. And I believe at that time my mom had just passed away as well. And so I feel like now more than ever I'm able to honor her memory and say, look at all these good things that I'm able to do. And it's in her memory, and I think that's really special.
- [12:32]
A
Yeah. Pete, the authenticity piece comes up a lot of times with businesses. The why of what you're doing. Why is that important for you to hear that from small business owners when you're talking to them in your role?
- [12:43]
D
Oh, that's a great question. Excuse me. Because it affects their top line and bottom line revenue. Brands create feelings and feelings make decisions. And so the story is part of the branding. And business owners are often so busy working in their business, when they're working on it, they can be disconnected with their why and leading with that. And to Kelly's point, consumers, we value authenticity, and so when they can connect, it will lead to growth. So that's what I've seen.
- [13:10]
A
So what was the sort of next phase of your relationship with Kelly as you sort of exited that pitch competition and sort of then started to build a relationship? Sort of. How did your story go from therapy in terms of your, your connection to access tracks and the relationship you guys have built?
- [13:23]
D
Sure. So at Chase for Business, we have the Coach for Impact program and I was a senior business consultant and part of our role is to find business owners to work with. Right. And you know, I got the courage, talked to Kelly. Right. Connected with her, and we began kind of a four to five month journey, meeting weekly and bi weekly, having meetings about her business, her cash flow, understanding what her trajectory was, what she was trying to achieve. And we began to coach and work with her specifically on access to capital. Right. Getting credit, becoming lendable, you know, going over numbers, debt service coverage, but also, you know, inventory and just expanding. And she was, she had these great ideas, right? That was, that was the easy part. It was how to implement them in the real time in the market and here in this amazing economy, local market of San Diego was, I think, the perfect ecosystem for her to really root and be watered by the community, to scale.
- [14:15]
A
So Kelly, bridge that time period for us. So obviously you started this idea, you decided this was gonna be the path that you're Gonna go on. You started participating in some of these competitions. Take us from there into sort of where we are now in terms of the growth of your business and sort of the success you've had.
- [14:30]
C
Yeah. So the coaching for Impact helped me understand how to get from, you know, I'm a startup into feeling more like I'm a full fledged business and how to think about my finances and prepping for the future and not just for, you know. And so understanding capital was really important to me and the why, why, why and how do I get there? And he was able to give me literally the roadmap for that. And so once I was really taking hold of ownership over my finances and understanding that path, I was able to really focus on how do you do that? And it's well, we can grow with sales. Right. And so understanding the marketing piece. And so our, you know, early adopters was the adaptive surfing community. And here in San Diego, this is where the first ever World Adaptive Surfing Championships started. So to give you an idea, 2015 was the first ever one of those competitions. And we started the school project in 2016. So we were there from the beginning, grew with that community and then very quickly branched out and we started to see these other industries being able to use these portable pathways for access over outdoor terrain, like the film industry. Right. So they have to move heavy equipment and cameras. You've got construction industry, similar idea there. And we started moving into big events and sporting events and you know, from day one, my goal has actually always been to work with the Olympics and Paralympics and you know, what a great goal for in Southern California, we have both coming here in 2028 to LA.
- [16:03]
B
Right.
- [16:04]
C
So, you know, as I'm growing my company, I'm working a lot with the adaptive or para athletics community. So that's triathlons, it's surfing, all sorts of things there. Like I said, moving into these other industries, which was really exciting. Weathering, of course, the pandemic as a small business was really challenging, but it was about staying authentic and open and honest to your customers. Trying to manage every day as you know, things can change and you need to pivot and that's okay. Also relationship management with all of your stakeholders. So at the time I had a couple of small business, well, I wouldn't say small business loans, it was friends and family loans right to the business as we got started. And so during the pandemic, you know, I had to do a little bit of a loan deferment for just a couple of months. And as long as you're being very communicative with all of your stakeholders, your clients, your investors, the bank, you know, everyone that is in that relationship with you as a business, then you will weather these storms.
- [17:12]
B
Right.
- [17:13]
C
Another big point of our growth has been through grants. And so we've won the FedEx small business grant grand prize in 2020, coincidentally that really challenging year. And that helped me go full time with access tracks. And I started to see the growth of the business just skyrocket when I was full time. And so that was really impactful, being able to really focus on it and put all of my energy into it. I'm happy to say that on the road to the Olympics and Paralympics, we've made great progress and we've already worked with USA Triathlon and Paratriathlon and they want to use me as their official partner for the beach access for that. So we're making strides and we'll continue to grow. And we've already started to grow as far as having part time employees as well. It's exciting to be able to give somebody else a job offer opportunity.
- [18:05]
A
Yeah. We'll talk a little bit more about sort of the future plans for AX distracts in a second. Pete, I'm interested to hear a little bit about sort of that discussion around access to capital, both as traditional and non traditional, that Kelly mentioned.
- [18:17]
D
Certainly.
- [18:17]
A
What do you advise from your perspective as business owners are sort of entering that sort of next phase of their growth, how they look at capital and how they should tap into it and how they should repay old existing capital that they've used?
- [18:30]
D
Great question. You know, I would say it's first marrying your vision to your numbers and having a plan. For example, cash can be your kryptonite if you don't have a plan to pay it back. And there's good debt and there's bad debt. So I always give the analogy of what is the spirit animal of your business? Is it a butterfly, is it a dragon? Because that spirit animal is going to burn calories, it's going to have expenses. So what does it need to consume, to eat, to replenish those calories? And that helps business owners really see the inputs and the outputs. And it's really knowing also how to calculate their break even to understand how fast should I grow? Quarter to quarter to make sure we're on a healthy pace where we're not saying yes to too much, to where now we have to shut down the business. So I would say for business owners it's important to number one, separate business from personal Right. Definitely have the business live on its own. Number two, think ahead and have trusted advisors build your team. You don't have to know everything. You're not going to know everything. Immediately start to surround yourself with bankers, with local community leaders, with people who can show you the way, especially if you're new. And then really, I would say, amortize your ambition and your passion. It's going to have to take time and so give yourself three to four years to say, these are the goals that I'm setting. And that way you can hold yourself accountable and then make sure you're getting the support that you need to achieve those goals.
- [19:46]
A
So, Kelly, what's your spirit animal if I'm going to put you on the spot?
- [19:50]
C
Ooh, that is a really good question. I have always been partial to birds, so I'm going to say a hummingbird because, you know, their wings beat really fast. I'm always moving, thinking, doing. Probably don't just sit still for, you know, but they're. But they, you know, they do a lot for the environment in the community. Right. They're pollinators. That's good.
- [20:11]
A
That's a great answer. And you answered it quickly. You didn't have to think too long, too long about that one. Kelly, as you were sort of plotting your sort of, you know, growth phase, you talked about it a little bit. How did you approach capital? How did you, you know, think about it? Because again, this is not something like you said you got from training in occupational therapy school. This is. This is in founder school, which is the unofficial education that you get as a business owner. So how did you look at it and how do you look at it now?
- [20:38]
C
Yeah, so in the beginning, so startup phase, school project. Right. Where do you get the funding? Because you are not going to get traditional bank loans at that stage, you know, in most cases. And so first and foremost, you look at scholarships or grants. And so I had asked my school if there was anything, and it just so happened that the company that owned our school owned a bunch of other schools around the world, and they had a global business plan competition and the application was still open. So at this time in December of 2016, I believe is when we found out about this, applied, ended up becoming finalists and won a little bit of cash. So that got us through the initial prototyping stage of how do we manufacture something and not just make it by hand. Right. To be scalable. So that was stage one is the initial grant. Right. And then from there I got a taste of, well, grants are awesome. It's free money. Right. And what better way to get funds? And so over the years, I've won over a hundred thousand dollars in grant funding for my small business. So that has been very impactful. Also from day one is the first grant that we got was just simply not enough. You know, startups do eat cash. Talking about, you know, what, what it eats and consumes and calories. Well, calories is dollars, right. For a business. And so I got family and friends loans and we were very serious about it. I got three. One of them was from an adaptive surfer. He was amazing and said, I don't want to invest because I don't want to call it that. I want to have any control in decision making. I want to just loan you this money. And so we did that. And then my father and my best friend's father, they all. That was our family and friends round, if you will, for loans. And as of, I want to say, two years ago, I have paid all of them back. And man, was that an exciting day. Just knowing that they believed in me and that I was able to honor that and respect that. And every month when I would write them checks, I would write a little letter of, here's what we've been up to in the past 30 days. So there was never a question of how you doing, how you doing? You know, so grants, family and friends. And then right from there it was, well, I have to get revenue to sustain the business. And so growing off of our own cash was always big. We did have an angel investor for a short period of time. It just wasn't the right fit. And so we moved on from that. But we've tried pretty much every method. And then after learning about the five Cs of credit and the different ratios, I was able to finally qualify for traditional bank line of credit. And that was a really also exciting day.
- [23:16]
A
Yeah. So, Pete, talk us through. Sort of as business owners get to that point where it's all right, I can take on a loan from a bank like Chase.
- [23:24]
D
Yes.
- [23:26]
A
And then how does the planning go from there in terms of what types of things you like to say as they enter that next phase of growth, but using that capital wisely in a way to say, okay, balancing the risk and reward of using that capital in a way to hopefully grow your business?
- [23:41]
D
You know, it really comes back to the vision and their why. And when I work with business owners, your why is your everyday and that determines where you want to grow. And why is if you're expanding, why are you expanding? If you're hiring, why are you, why are you hiring? What is your end destination and what is that doing for the business? And your mission? Revenue is one thing, but to continue driving revenue, it's your mission. Why does your business exist and your vision? What are the outcomes? You're looking forward quarter over quarter, year over year. And that goes back to that three year plan that I mentioned, where, as a suggestion, if you're looking at three years to determine where you want to be, you're going to get the right resources and the right partners. Two things I'll mention, what I don't see enough of is having a team of trusted advisors. That's a very key pillar. You have to have fellowship, you have to have allyship. You cannot do it alone. And relationships will sometimes give you more than what financials can get you. Right, because your network will open doors for you. They'll make introductions to contractors. You know, Kelly's a living example. She embodies that very well. She showed up, she shows up everywhere. I don't know how she does it. She has a teleporter. Right. Where she's showing up at, for example, 100,000 in grants is tremendously difficult. You have to write, you have to lean in and you have to be present. And that's the work. The sweat equity, the intellectual sweat equity and the communal sweat equity to really grow your business. And so it goes back to the vision and the why, Kelly?
- [25:03]
A
And as you were sort of thinking about your sort of unofficial and official advisors, who did you turn to and what did you learn from that process in terms of when you needed somebody and why you needed somebody?
- [25:13]
C
For me, early on, I didn't really know about advisors and so I put myself through different business accelerator programs and the coaching for impact, I do feel like that's a definite form of advisory. You know, it's, it's looking at what are your needs right now, but also what will you need in the near future. And kind of going towards assistance in the community or through mentors or through advisors, whether official or unofficial. That's where you get that from. And so for me, I've been through, I think, five or six different business accelerator programs. And not to say that they're not all the same curriculum, the same thing, because I wouldn't do that. Right. They have different expertise, different mentors, and they have all been tremendously helpful and transformational for me as I'm learning how to be a CEO and how to be a sustainable leader for my business. And not just, well, we're going to do great for five years and fizzle out. You know, a lot of businesses fail before year five. And I'm really honored to say that I have made it past that mark and that's a big deal. So definitely having that community and people that you can call on, whether it's, you know, tomorrow or, you know, a year from now, is really impactful.
- [26:27]
A
So Kelly, as you're Putting together your three year plan, I imagine the 2028 Paralympics are a big part of that. So talk us through sort of your thought process is on sort of your growth plan, heading towards that.
- [26:39]
C
Yeah. So it's been an awesome journey kind of getting to that point even further back than three years. Right. Even since day one in 2018 when we started the business. I had printed out a piece of paper with all of our goals and that was on there all the way from 2017, 2018. So for me, it's relationship building and it's being an authentic leader in the adaptive athletic space. And so I have consistently showed up to the world Para Surfing championships, I've consistently showed up to these triathlons and paratriathlons whenever they need me. Because that is what's going to move the needle is the relationships. Because if the athletes want you, they will advocate if the coaches want you, if the spectators want you and they know you and they're familiar with you because you have shown up repeatedly and been reliable, then you know these venues and the event coordinators who are notoriously difficult to get hold of leading up to this type of an event. You know, you don't need the warm introduction because they're the community that's going to be the athletes is already asking for you to be there. So that's kind of how I show up. But also, of course, trying to get those warm introductions and trying to get in front of the actual planners for that event. But yeah, that's kind of my recipe, if you will, is you really just have to show up consistently.
- [28:05]
A
Good advice to share. Pete would also like to hear sort of maybe your best advice for business owners out there that we've talked a lot about today. But is there any other piece of advice that you'd want to share with our audience?
- [28:17]
D
Sure. You know, stay resilient, right. Stay informed as best as you can about your industry. Also know when to say no. And that's a tough one. You know, when you're looking to grow, you're looking to make payroll, drive revenue. Not every contract or opportunity suits your business. So what is best aligned with Your why and your business that will translate into revenue. And also realizing that 80% of your efforts will come from 20% of your actions. Right. The 80, 20 rule, the Prideaux principle. So really governing your time wisely and making sure because time is expensive, it's a rare currency, allocating it properly, that's going to help you achieve your goals and have fun. Don't lose your fire and your passion. Going back to Kelly, she's never lost her passion. If anything, it's only exacerbated by her success and her drive. Keep your passion at the forefront and it will attract others to you that see what you see in your business.
- [29:11]
A
Kelly, if you could just describe to us a little bit about what the Access Tracks product is in a little bit more detail for our audience that may not be familiar with it.
- [29:19]
C
Yes. So AXS Tracks is a portable access mat. They're essentially square tiles that can connect together on all four sides. The size is a 3 foot by 3 foot square and it's made of a durable recyclable plastic. And then they can connect together to make any length and width of pathway that is needed for an outdoor access path. And they connect together using Velcro hinges. So it's really user friendly. And that is definitely by design because we want anybody who gets this out of the box to understand how do I use this? I just want to get from point A to point B to focus on what I'm doing, not how am I going to get there.
- [29:57]
B
Right.
- [29:57]
C
And the mats have been used on sand, grass, gravel, even snow mulch. These terrains that are challenging for traction. Right. For people's wheels on their mobility device or if they're moving heavy equipment or even just walking. So essentially, at the end of the day, think of it as these little square tiles that you can put together to make a portable sidewalk.
- [30:20]
A
Kelly Twitchell, Pete Jackson, thanks again for joining us today and sharing your insights with us. A lot to take away from that. We also learned about spirit animals, so I think we've come together with some really great insights and a little bit more about each other. Thanks again for joining us.
- [30:32]
D
Thank you for having us.
- [30:33]
C
Thank you.
- [30:35]
A
That's all for this episode of the Experience. Thanks again for joining us. I'm Ben Baer for Ink Custom Studio. My producer is Blake Odomly.