Podcast Summary: "How to Scale the Right Way"

Podcast: From the Ground Up by Inc. Magazine
Episode: How to Scale the Right Way
Date: November 7, 2025
Host: Graham Winfrey
Guests: Ariella Safira (Xera/Real), Fanny Gerson (La New Yorkina, Fan Fan Doughnuts, Mijo), Sarah Lafleur (MM Lafleur)

Episode Overview

This episode launches the "Founder Group Chat," in which three accomplished founders from vastly different industries—food, fashion, and mental health—share the unvarnished truths about scaling businesses. Host Graham Winfrey guides a conversation that delves into the challenges of growing at the right pace, learning from failures, making necessary pivots, and resisting the allure of growth for growth's sake. The founders discuss what they wish they’d known at the outset, dissecting both their biggest wins and formative setbacks.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Challenge (and Myth) of Seamless Growth

• Sarah Lafleur illustrates the dangers of buying into the "overnight success" story, recounting how MM Lafleur’s early expectations of instant online sales were met with reality:

  • "It was kind of the heyday of direct to consumer businesses...I thought that’s what it was going to be like for me...And very quickly realized, wow, it’s really hard to sell things online."
    (03:28)

• Her breakout moment came not from a master growth plan, but a desperate attempt to move inventory—shipping curated clothing boxes to trunk show customers.

• This later became the signature "Bento Box" service, which drove unprecedented sales:

  • "We sent this email and we ended up making more money in that one week through that box...than we had any month leading up to it...That was the moment where I was like, wow, it’s like, money is just, like, coming through the door."
    (05:40)

• Key takeaway: Product quality alone isn't enough—how you sell it matters just as much, especially online.

  • "It’s not enough to just have a good product. How you sell it, especially online...is just as important."
    (06:17)

2. Chasing Big Partnerships—At What Cost?

• Fanny Gerson shares her experience trying to scale her Paletas by getting into Whole Foods:

  • The dream of a national distributor forced difficult compromises, from altering product size and packaging (minis in a square box) to wrestling with logistical challenges and slim profit margins.
  • External shocks (like the pandemic) and unexpected operational headaches (keeping branded freezers stocked) further complicated things.

• Critical moment:

  • "We were starting to realize that we were actually losing money being into Whole Foods...So this whole idea of chasing, you know, this thing..."
    (09:40)

• With the tough decision to pull out, new, more profitable opportunities emerged locally.

  • "When we told the kitchen, okay, we're going to pull out of Whole Foods, they were like, but it represents like a third of our production. What are we going to do? And I said, I don't know. I'm also scared. But if we are producing and losing money, then..."
    (10:45)
  • "...we pulled out and then that opened up all of these other...more local opportunities."
    (10:58)

• Insight: Sometimes scaling by chasing "the big fish" means sacrificing what makes you unique or profitable. Staying local or niche can actually be the right way to scale.

3. Pivoting Under Pressure: From Physical to Virtual

• Ariella Safira details her journey with Xera (formerly Real), which involved a massive pivot in response to the pandemic—from a brick-and-mortar group therapy concept to a digital-first, B2B mental health platform.

  • The name change itself was an unexpectedly massive undertaking, full of branding headaches:
    • "Never change your name. Wow. Please pick the name you want to keep for life...We did face a lot of confusion...I don't think I appreciated how much brand awareness we had built..."
      (12:00 – 13:40)

• On the pivot:

  • "We raised around. We built a beautiful location on Fifth Avenue, all set to open in April 20...and the pandemic hits and investors are texting, I don't think it's going to open...What we ended up doing at the time was launching what we thought would be a one month offering of free digital care...bank accounts getting closer to zero. Oh shit, what are we gonna do?"
    (14:17 – 15:23)

  • This desperation move revealed unexpected user preferences:

    • Customers overwhelmingly preferred anonymous group therapy over one-on-one sessions.
    • "They were joining anonymously with their videos off and with their names hidden...They'd share: I want to hear how these issues show up for other people...I just don't want anyone to know I'm here..."
      (17:38)

  • These discoveries led to a complete reimagining of the business, incorporating one-to-many and asynchronous group therapy models.

• Reflective insight:

  • "I now find myself certainly questioning or analyzing how we could have done that better and maybe been a little less obsessed with the scientific study of it all and maybe a little quicker to act on scale and the more like brass tax business things."
    (19:52)

4. The Importance of Adaptation and Learning from Crisis

• Sarah Lafleur describes rebuilding MM Lafleur after extreme disruption—revenue dropped 60% during Covid, multiple rounds of layoffs, stores shuttered, and sudden capital crises:

  • "It’s just so painful. Almost like taking this castle that you’ve built and, like, dismantling it piece by piece."
    (21:18)

  • She draws a critical distinction between chasing hypergrowth fueled by venture capital and building a sustainable, profit-focused business:

    • "I am still getting this incredible...second chance to do it the right way, which is really not relying on enormous venture capital money, really focusing on the bottom line constantly...someone said to me recently, revenue is vanity. EBITDA is reality. And I was like, truer words have never been said."
      (22:20 – 22:55)

  • Fundamental shift:

    • "If I was chasing scale and growth...I am a fundamentally different operator now."
      (23:09)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Ariella Safira (on the realness of startup stress):
  "There was no brilliant hypothesis that this would pivot the business. This was like, you know, bank accounts getting closer to zero. Oh shit. What are we going to do?"
  (00:44, recapped later at 15:20)

• Sarah Lafleur (on finding the right product-market fit):
  "People talk about like, what does product market fit and what does it feel like? I can only describe it for myself as like, that was that moment where suddenly, like, making money, which up until that point, had felt so difficult...But that was the moment where I was like, wow, it’s like, money is just, like, coming through the door."
  (05:40)

• Fanny Gerson (on growth not always meaning success):
  "We were starting to realize that we were actually losing money being into Whole Foods...And so, when we told the kitchen, okay, we're going to pull out of Whole Foods, they were like, but it represents like a third of our production. What are we going to do? And I said, I don't know. I'm also scared. But if we are producing and losing money, then..."
  (10:45)

• Sarah Lafleur (on learning from adversity):
  "Revenue is vanity. EBITDA is reality. And I was like, truer words have never been said."
  (22:48)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:28 – Sarah Lafleur breaks down the origins of M.M. Lafleur’s "Bento Box"
• 06:35 – Fanny Gerson’s Whole Foods journey: Innovation, struggle, and retreat
• 12:00 – Ariella Safira on the pain and complexity of a company name change
• 14:17 – Ariella’s company pivots from brick-and-mortar to virtual amidst crisis
• 17:38 – Discovering the unexpected success of anonymous group therapy
• 21:18 – Sarah Lafleur on rebuilding after deep setbacks
• 22:48 – Shift from revenue growth to profit focus ("EBITDA is reality")

Conclusion

This candid conversation strips away the glossy narratives of startup success, revealing the hard truth: scaling the "right way" often means confronting brutal realities, staying close to your core values, and not being afraid to reimagine everything—even the things you thought were non-negotiable. For founders and business operators, there’s no one-size-fits-all path to growth, and sometimes the real win is learning when to pivot, slow down, or even pull back.

Next Episode Teaser: The group chat continues with more founder insights next week. Subscribe to keep up!