Jumping Off the Shelf, with Jen Zeszut of Goodles

Summary

Podcast Summary: From the Ground Up – "Jumping Off the Shelf, with Jen Zezit of Goodles"

Episode Information:

• Title: Jumping Off the Shelf, with Jen Zeszut of Goodles
• Release Date: February 10, 2025
• Hosts: Diana Ransom (Inc. Executive Editor) and Christine Lagorio-Chafkin (Editor-at-Large)
• Guest: Jen Zezit, CEO and Co-Founder of Goodles

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1. Introduction and Guest Background

The episode kicks off with a light-hearted conversation between Christine Lagorio-Chafkin and Diana Ransom about family life, setting a warm and relatable tone. Diana introduces the guest, Jen Zezit, highlighting her extensive entrepreneurial background. Jen is not new to the startup scene; she has co-founded multiple companies, including marketing firms and Cerebelly, a baby products company.

Notable Quote:

• Diana Ransom [01:18]: “Jen is not a first-time founder. This is like her third company she's co-founded.”

2. Launching Goodles: Going Big from the Start

Jen discusses the bold decision to launch Goodles, her first consumer packaged goods (CPG) company, by securing placement in 1,900 Target stores within five months. Contrary to the conventional approach of starting small and iterating, Jen and her co-founder Paul Earle opted for a large-scale launch to compete directly with industry giants like General Mills and Kraft.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Zezit [04:39]: “I kind of instilled the, no, we're going big or we're going home from day one.”

3. Differentiating in the Market: Incremental Revenue Strategy

Goodles differentiates itself by not directly taking market share from existing brands but instead generating incremental revenue. By targeting young adults instead of the traditional demographic of moms with young children, Goodles opens up a new customer base. This strategy ensures that retailers like Target benefit from additional sales without cannibalizing existing products.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Zezit [08:50]: “If we can bring those people back to Mac, it's incremental to the category. So now we're a win, win, win.”

4. Unique Branding and Packaging

A significant factor in Goodles' success is its distinctive packaging. Choosing neon pink boxes allowed Goodles to stand out in the typically brown and gray pasta aisle. This bold design choice not only attracts attention but also signals that Goodles offers something different—an adult-oriented, better-for-you Mac and cheese option.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Zezit [22:55]: “Our pasta boxes are neon pink… we have to signal that something’s different down that aisle.”

5. Unexpected Support from Micro-Communities

Beyond their initial target market, Goodles has garnered support from various micro-communities, including parents of children with autism, individuals recovering from illnesses, and people seeking safe, nutritious comfort foods. Jen shares heartfelt stories of how Goodles has positively impacted these groups, highlighting the company's broader social impact.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Zezit [21:28]: “We've gotten letters from people who are looking for safe foods after being anorexic, and Goodles became the first safe carb that they felt comfortable eating.”

6. Navigating VC Advice and Building the Right Team

Jen recounts the challenges of securing venture capital and the unsolicited advice received from VCs to make the packaging appear “healthier” with vegetables depicted on the boxes. Unfazed, Goodles maintained its edgy and fun branding, believing that mass appeal required differentiation rather than conformity. This steadfastness attracted investors who genuinely believed in Goodles' vision.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Zezit [25:56]: “If you do your work and you really feel it in your bones, don’t be swayed by unsolicited advice.”

7. Emphasizing Legendary Business Results and Company Culture

A pivotal moment for Jen was a conversation with the CEO of an acquiring company, who suggested that prioritizing team culture over business results would limit her company's potential. Determined to prove otherwise, Jen committed to achieving "legendary business results" while fostering a positive and motivated team culture. This dual focus has driven Goodles' rapid growth and solidified its market presence.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Zezit [37:42]: “If you want to run a business, the measure of success is a legendary outcome.”

8. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

The episode wraps up with reflections on Goodles' journey, emphasizing the importance of staying true to one's vision, the value of incremental revenue strategies, and the power of unique branding. Jen encourages entrepreneurs to seek out investors who align with their mission and to prioritize both business success and team well-being.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Zezit [35:27]: “We have to prove it. And we haven't done it yet, but we will.”

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Key Takeaways:

1. Bold Launch Strategy: Going big from the outset can be a viable strategy when aiming to disrupt a mature market segment.
2. Incremental Revenue: Targeting untapped customer bases can provide value to both the brand and retailers without direct competition.
3. Distinctive Branding: Unique and vibrant packaging can set a product apart in a crowded aisle, attracting the right consumer attention.
4. Community Impact: Building a brand that resonates with diverse micro-communities can lead to unexpected and meaningful support.
5. Vision Over Conformity: Staying true to your brand’s vision, even in the face of unsolicited advice, is crucial for long-term success.
6. Balanced Growth: Achieving legendary business results while maintaining a positive company culture is essential for sustainable growth.

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Final Thoughts:

Jen Zezit's journey with Goodles exemplifies how audacious vision, strategic differentiation, and unwavering commitment to both product and culture can lead to remarkable success in the competitive CPG landscape. Her story serves as an inspiring blueprint for entrepreneurs aiming to make a significant impact in their industries.

Transcript

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Diana, Christine, do you ever steal food off your kids plates?

[Diana Ransom]

Okay, so we all know kids leave a lot of leftovers on their plates. Unless you have like a ravenous child who eats everything.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Said no kid ever.

[Jen Zezit]

Right, right.

[Diana Ransom]

So there's definitely been situations where there's like leftover food on the plate that I will purloin potentially, but I don't know if I like rob them of their food.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Do you know what we call it in our house? Yeah, we call it like the mom tax or the dad tax. Yeah, if we steal a bite, it's like, oh, mama tax coming in.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, that's so cute.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And so my kids now and they take bites from other people's plates or each other's, they'll say their own tax, you know.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, I love that.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Even though they had nothing to do with the purchasing or creation of the.

[Diana Ransom]

Food that's on the plate. I mean, maybe they set the table.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

No, no, they didn't have some.

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Okay. So if there's Mac and cheese or something like that on the plate. Yeah, I might try a little something. This is from the ground up. I'm inc. Executive editor Diana Ransom and.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I'm editor at large Christine Ligorio Chavkin. Today's episode jumping off the shelf.

[Diana Ransom]

So Christine, for today's episode I spoke with Jen Zezit, who is the CEO and co founder of a company called Goodles. So, so we profiled Jen and her company for our annual female founders package. And she was just so dynamic. She just sprang off the page. I wanted to talk to her. So Jen is not a first time founder. This is like her third company she's co founded. She's sort of been around the block. She started up a couple of marketing firms, sort of software oriented.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

But this is like the first consumer packaged goods company she's founded. She was also a CEO of another company called Cerebelly, which was like a baby products company.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Oh, sure, I know of them.

[Diana Ransom]

So she's been around. Goodalls makes me Mac and cheese, which maybe you've heard of or tried.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Basically Mac and cheese.

[Jen Zezit]

I've had it.

[Diana Ransom]

Well, the good old's version is it's like the quote unquote better for you version of the product. But they try to infuse like interesting flavors. There's one that's called Twist my Parm, which is like twist my arm.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

There's like a cacio e Pepe one, right?

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, yeah. So they try to sort of infuse more adult palate oriented tastes with the Boxes. So, you know, basically you would think Mac and cheese is for kids and what they're doing is trying to kind of make it a little bit more adult oriented.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

The packaging is fun and colorful and that's good ol's.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

It's also fortified. Right. There's more kind of density of vitamins and minerals.

[Diana Ransom]

Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's just really like the key is the pasta is not just a sort of standard flour based pasta. Maybe they have like a chickpea in the mix or something like that. So this is where they get the better for you ingredients there.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Oh, got it.

[Diana Ransom]

So everybody loves Mac and cheese. I wanted to learn a little bit more about her company. And you've also over the years kind of talked to other people in this field, right? Yeah.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I met with Jennifer Garner and one of her co founders, John Foraker, in their baby food company, which I guess would probably be a competitor to Cerebelli. They make pouches of really like nutrient dense fruit and veggie dense.

[Diana Ransom]

Once upon a baby, once on a farm.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah. And John used to run Annie's, which sells Mac and cheese. And one of the things he told me was it was a frustrating experience for him at times because, you know, he was really big on childhood nutrition. And he said there's only so much nutrition we can pack in a box of pasta.

[Diana Ransom]

Right.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Which, I mean, that's really funny. You look at Goodalls like there is more nutrition you can pack in a box. If you look at that label. Right. It looks more nutrient dense.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. And that's kind of the thing that they were doing. So Jen was sitting around with Paul Earle, who's the co founder of her company. They were thinking about like, okay, so what's, what's a category that's like basically not been quote unquote innovated and they thought of Mac and cheese, can you make a better for you pasta? And they. With Jen's experience working at Cerebelli, she had a food scientist like on call. Nice to have.

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

So she met up with the food scientists and anyway, we'll get into all those details in the actual interview.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Okay, great. I can't wait to hear it.

[Diana Ransom]

So within five months of launching the company, you all went big. You went to 1900 Target stores.

[Jen Zezit]

We did.

[Diana Ransom]

You launched. We did 1900 stores. So you went big. What is the, I guess if you were to like step back for a second and think about like the justification for going big, like, why do that instead of like doing the whole like try a region, see what it's like. Iterate.

[Jen Zezit]

Yes. To be honest, that was kind of Paul's idea. He's like, well, just, you know, make a couple boxes and we'll stick it in a local region of Whole Foods and see how it does. No, I'm not doing that. I kind of instilled the, no, we're going big or we're going home from day one. And I think it's because it doesn't necessarily work for every brand. But we had our sights set on one of the biggest food brands in the country. Like, if we're going to compete against the General Mills and the Krafts of the world, who are incredible companies with huge deep pockets and are smart marketers and all that kind of stuff, we've got to play a very big game. And it's a different game. We can't play their game. It's got to be our own game. So we knew we kind of had to. If they were going to zig, we were going to have to zag because we could never afford. Right.

[Diana Ransom]

You can't compete on the same platform.

[Jen Zezit]

Nope, can't do it. But we knew we were going to go big now. We knew we wanted to go big. I didn't know anybody at Target. We didn't know anyone who would return our calls. And, you know, yes, I have done baby food. And so, yeah, I knew my Target buyer. She had left the company. She's like, now, dunno, it's not the same people. So it doesn't really matter if you knew someone one time who used to work there, whatever. If you don't know who's on the desk is making the decisions for your category. You don't know anybody.

[Diana Ransom]

So what did you do? Did you like, mail your product to the Target people?

[Jen Zezit]

Well, that's. I guess that's the very.

[Diana Ransom]

Did you like show up and say, scrappy, eat my Mac and cheese?

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah, kind of. I mean, it took a year from that point to actually launch in Target, to get ready and all of those sorts of things. But yeah, that was probably the, you know, you can plan all you want for going big, but that is very unusual for a national retailer without $1 of revenue to make a bet like that. And they did. Actually. We were just at Target yesterday in Minneapolis and I actually put up for our current buyer the original pitch deck that I showed to them in April of 2021. And it was the stupidest thing you've ever seen. Like the logo's not the same and I think all the names of our flavors were different. I think it was called, like, proper Peppa or something.

[Diana Ransom]

Ooh, that's cute.

[Jen Zezit]

Okay, it's not cute. It's not cute. All right.

[Diana Ransom]

I'm not kidding. I'm obviously not the branding whiz, but.

[Jen Zezit]

It had, like, little weird, like, we hadn't actually made the food. And so we had, like, little photoshopped flecks of pepp on there or whatever. We were laughing so hard. We're like, why did you say yes to us? But we're so glad that you did. And the rest is history. So a lot of fate and a lot of blessings and people to be thankful. Little angels along the way for us, for sure.

[Diana Ransom]

Nice. Well, I mean, you've also become, I guess, a destination for people, like wanting to get goodalls, like not just parents, for instance, buying products for their kids, but adults, too.

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

So I think that's helped. That's helped you along the way. Right?

[Jen Zezit]

For sure. It's no doubt part of the secret of this success. And for any entrepreneurs listening, just if there's one thing to take away, I think this is it. That idea that most people are going into a category and you're going up against some kind of incumbent. If those are big company incumbents, we can't outspend them. We can't out coupon them, we can't out slotting fee them. I don't even want to have so much money that we could actually do that. So you can't play their game. You got to play a different game. And so for us, the genius move for Gooddles was making that decision to not go after moms with little kids. Cause craft is doing that and Annie's is doing that. And you know, they do it really, really well. I mean, Annie's is a great kitty brand with goldfish and gummies and all of those sorts of things. They do kitty really well. We can't rent cuter kids than they're renting for their commercials. Right. Like, they're adorable. We can't even afford a commercial. Let's be honest here. And you know, craft is noodle art to do with your 3 year old and things like that. Like, you just can't play that game. So that decision right there was so key for us because we just said we're going after young adults. We might get some moms with kids, but that's not what we're trying to do. So it meant that we needed design that looked a certain way. It needed names that were kind of edgy and down the hatch and, you know, fun things kids would either get or not get. But that insight right there is really, I think has been the reason that the retailers have really rolled out the red carpet for us. Because what it means is that were incremental revenue for them. So we don't go in saying we're going to take down all of your Kraft revenue or your Annie's revenue. They're pretty partial to that revenue. They don't actually want that to go away. But if we can actually bring people back to Mac and then there's either these young adults who have used to love Mac but they haven't had it since college, or they're trying not to eat it so they try to stay away or they think it's a guilty pleasure. So they minimize. Like, if we can bring those people back to Mac, it's incremental to the category. So now we're a win, win, win. Retailers can keep their much of their revenue. They might be losing a little bit of share, but they can keep a lot of their revenue. And we are incremental to the category. So yeah, Target actually gave us the numbers that were 81% incremental to the category.

[Diana Ransom]

That's amazing. So you're not even really threat to Annie's and Kraft, to be honest?

[Jen Zezit]

I think so because we're skating to a totally different white space. And the beauty of that is not just, I mean, a for retailers because then it just is like a win, win. Like, I'll take this revenue and I'll take that. Would you like 81% more, you know, revenue?

[Diana Ransom]

Sign me up.

[Jen Zezit]

So there's that, which is hugely supportive for our brand, but it also means that we don't have to compete with them. And it's also those brands that have existed for so long, they've kind of already built their brand and they stand for something. So, you know, something like a kitty brand, like an Annie's couldn't really do some of the marketing campaigns that we do. Like we just launched gluten free and our gluten free pasta is so delicious that you don't have to cover it in sauce. So the whole campaign was taste great naked and it was kind of edgy. Like the box.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, Amy's is never gonna do that.

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah, right. The box comes out of the steam room and like drops the towel and does like this. It's hysterical. If you're an adult, you just crack up. Right. They can't follow. So it also means that we just have a moat around the brand as well or a craft that does a great job of what it does, which is really cost effective and low cost food and calories for your family. They can't really pivot and suddenly say that we're premium nutrition and we care tons about clean ingredients. I mean that's just not their brand. They haven't stood for that for 80 years. So it's hard. So it helps us in both ways.

[Diana Ransom]

Because even if they did launch a better for you pasta, then it would make their current pasta look bad for you. Right. So they're sort of stuck.

[Jen Zezit]

You make your bed and they've made their bed, their brand bed for decades. And people. Interesting. Yeah. You can't break your promises. So you know, and that's going to be just as true for us. We make a certain promise about what our product represents and it is premium ingredients and it's premium nutrition and it is delicious taste always first and foremost, it doesn't taste good. We would never ever launch it. And we similarly, we can't break those promises either. So it just, if you do your job well, you're kind of in your lane.

[Diana Ransom]

Right.

[Jen Zezit]

Hard to pivot.

[Diana Ransom]

Well, we talked about, you mentioned before about your career arc and you know, starting software companies. So it occurs to me that you have very strong background in marketing and obviously working at Cerebelli as CEO for as long as you did, you have some insight into consumer product goods. But what's changed in the CPG landscape recently that maybe Goodalls hasn't had to deal with it necessarily. But like, what are you seeing that other companies are having to having to deal with now?

[Jen Zezit]

Oh man. So much is changing about just how CPG is, how any kind of consumer packaged good goes to market these days. I mean, the old rules that I learned in my P and G days are just really somewhat out the window.

[Diana Ransom]

Like what, what's a, what's a rule that's out the window?

[Jen Zezit]

Oh man. I mean, I just think that the marketing tactics that used to work just, they aren't working anymore. And I think that's. For example, one of the software companies that I had was doing that. It was allowing consumer packaged goods to run analytics on every single marketing tactic that they're running. Billboards, you know, out of home radio, coupons, da da da, everything, including digital and other types of things too. What's working, what's not working and what would allow you to grow way faster. And the shocking thing to me is that these big CPGs would pay us millions of dollars to sometimes Millions of dollars for us to run this analytics. And then they would say, thank you very much, and they wouldn't change anything.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, no.

[Jen Zezit]

Like, they just keep doing it.

[Diana Ransom]

Thank you for the information.

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah, they just keep doing it. And it's just because that's how you do what you've always done. And there's just so much fear in trying something new that's always been there. I think big companies in general, I remember from my old CPG days, it's like, if I had a crazy idea, Believe me, I had lots of crazy ideas.

[Diana Ransom]

You.

[Jen Zezit]

It was very clear that my days were numbered at big cpg because I literally came with some crazy ideas. And my bosses were like, okay, she's insane. And I also remember that for any new idea, you have to prove that there's no downside. So you put all of your energy into proving that there's no risk. And even things that had big upside, like this could be a giant win, was seen as suspicious. So I remember, like, dumbing down the numbers. Let's just take the actual. Let's take it way down to try to get things sold in. Obviously, there's a role for that, but I do think that that's very outdated thinking. Like, you gotta be ready and willing to take some risks and swing for some fences. Because I think the consumer has just changed. The formulaic commercial that says consumer insight, problem solution better than competitor. Like, that formula just doesn't work anymore. People want authentic. They want kind of scrappy, kind of real. And obviously that's another big part of Goodle's success, is we're just a little tiny startup. We don't have an agency. We're not doing commercials. We're filming stuff in our parking lot. My. I guess he was 15 when we started. Was my son is our video editor. Is like, editing things for us. Like, we're all just doing whatever we can. It's a family business. And I think that consumers resonate with that as well. You know, what we do just doesn't look big in corporate. And they root. I think humans like rooting for underdogs. So it makes it tricky. For big cpg. The rules have really changed. Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

We just ran a story about sort of like the vagaries of CPG companies dealing with grocery stores right now. And it's just obviously they're the same old, you know, the slotting fees and the downsides of getting, say, stuck on the bottom shelf, for instance. Those have always been there.

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

But now it's like, if you don't sell, you get dropped.

[Jen Zezit]

Right.

[Diana Ransom]

And so what does that produce in you as a business owner? Like, you're like, oh, my God, is this intense? Like, do you have to market your product, like all the time? Like, can you ever stop?

[Jen Zezit]

You're totally right. I mean, on the one hand, that box becomes so important because you don't usually control where you're going to end up on shelf. Although if you are in that win win where your incremental revenue to the retailer. Part of rolling out the red carpet is let's get you front and center, eye level. Because your incremental dollars, your incremental revenue, like your growth for the category. Oh, yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

I thought you were gonna say you just show up at the store and move all the product up.

[Jen Zezit]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Definitely don't do that.

[Diana Ransom]

We don't have time for that.

[Jen Zezit]

No, we don't have time for that. But no, you're right. It is really tricky. And whenever we talk to retailers, it's like, you gotta give these little brands a shot. Like, you can't. The chicken and the egg thing, if you say that you back young brands, that means putting it at eye level and actually giving it a shot. No one skew on the bottom shelf. Well, it didn't turn. I don't know. You know what I mean? It's like the retailers have to truly partner to give us a shot. And we've been lucky enough to really get that front and center placement every single time. But the packaging has to be crazy too. I don't know if you've seen our pasta boxes. They are neon pink. And we did that on purpose because the pasta aisle is so new and so brown and so gray. And it seems like every. Every box is like, no, my Italian grandma's older than your Italian grandma. And it's like this competition of like, who's more old and fusty than the. And we're just like, no, we cannot do that. So neon pink. And we shine on that shelf. Your head just goes, what? And that's what we need to do is signal that something's different down this aisle. Because if you're going to get incremental sales, then you have to signal to people that there's something different down that aisle. Because if we're 81% incremental at a mass retailer, it means that those people will walk past that aisle and be like, no Mac and cheese. Eh, I don't even need to walk down that one anymore. I don't eat that. I'm just eat that much anymore. And we have to get them down that aisle. And so the packaging becomes really important. I also think that for us, secondary displays become really important. End caps, side caps, things that arrest attention and get people to walk down that aisle. But of course, the biggest leverage you've got is your marketing and your fans and our consumers who just appear to be gaga for Gooddles. That is our best possible marketing. So.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

All right, hold on a moment. It sounds like Goodalls being, as Jen put it, scrappy with this kind of DIY marketing vibe, it actually gave them an advantage over incumbents. Is that true?

[Diana Ransom]

Maybe. I don't know if it was an advantage necessarily. I think basically from her experience, she kind of knew what worked, which is helpful when you're starting a company. She knew, like, dynamic coloring in your packaging will sort of attract the eyes when you walk by. And I think the biggest key, though, is how she was able to showcase, like, okay, we're not actually stealing market share from anybody. We're actually providing you to your customer, dear Target, or the Walmarts of the world. We're providing you additional revenue that you didn't even have before. We're giving you brand new customers, adult customers, for instance, not just kids buying Mac and cheese. This is what's called incremental revenue. They're driving a whole new revenue stream for Target. So, yeah, Target's gonna be like, yes, please come back, please, like, give us more. Sell us more products.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

So, like, positioning yourself not just as an underdog within an existing category, but like, you're kind of creating a new category within it.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, totally creating a new category. Cool.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I love it. And I love that those boxes are just really hard to miss. Bright pink box amidst a sea of beige.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. And, you know, there's no flexing pieces of broccoli or like, you know, people lifting or different vegetables lifting weights. Like, you can still kind of like give off the vibe of, this is healthy. This is different. Without being just like everybody else.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah, yeah. So what did you two talk about next?

[Diana Ransom]

Well, we talked about basically, like, no business can really strike a chord without a core audience. And so we get into the core audience.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

So turning the people who spot that pink box into your, like, into your superfans. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jen Zezit]

Great.

[Diana Ransom]

You also made significant inroads with like, quote unquote micro communities. Yeah, right. So that we were talking a bit about in a past conversation, just about the fans that you have cultivated among, like, you know, kids with autism, for instance, or like children who are recovering from illness. Was that intentional? Like, how did this happen?

[Jen Zezit]

Oh, my God. How did this happen? No. And it's one of the most surprising and rewarding parts of all of this because, you know, like, we started the conversation, ooh, Mac and cheese. You just see huge opportunity, and you just think about the primary use case or technically, we thought about that very, very first. What I think about it in terms of bowling pins is like, which bowling pin do I want to hit at the beginning, and we really focused on young, single adults, no kids, trying to eat healthier and better. That was our first bowling pin. And we knew that there's, like, other worlds of bowling pins, either the fitness community or certain communities. We were hoping that eventually the first pin would knock down some other pins. But who knew that there were pins like what you mentioned? And those are just letters that get written into us. Just fan mail that comes in sometimes through DMs, lots of handwritten notes, which is just incredible, but so many really rewarding surprises. We've gotten letters from people who are looking for safe foods after being anorexic, and goatles became the first safe carb that they felt comfortable eating, and they're on the right track with their eating disorder. There are people who write as, unfortunately. Yeah. Parents of pediatric cancer patients, their kiddos. You know, it's been hundreds of hundreds of letters that get written in, and some of my friends, unfortunately, who have had that situation. But going through chemo is really, really hard on your tummy, and you just want to eat comfort food, but you gotta get nutrition into those kiddos. Autism is a really important one. I've got three kids. Two of mine are on the spectrum. One with really severe sensitivities and protein. Just too many textures and veggies. The texture just doesn't fit and doesn't work. And so it is hard when you have kids with, you know, whether it's on the autism spectrum or just picky eaters, it gets really, really hard as a parent. So none of those things were expected, but it's really incredible experience.

[Diana Ransom]

And, I mean, how do you lean into those? Like, do you or. I mean, obviously it's grown organically. Like, these communities kind of find you, but.

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah. Well, it's funny that you say that. We're hatching some plans because it's one of those things. It's just. It's happening all around us. And just, like, the love and support from these communities, and it's so interwoven into our brand story and my story and my kids, and we actually have One of our employees is severely autistic, and he comes and he works in our office. His name is Cyrus, and he's just such a bright light in our lives, and he's so wonderful and does such good work for us. So we're thinking a lot about that. Like, how do we. If our mission is to make the and do gooder, how can we tell that story a little bit better and to support this community better? So I guess stay tuned. I honestly. I'm not keeping any secrets from you. We're trying to figure out right now, but it feels important to us, and I hope it's this year that we do something.

[Diana Ransom]

That sounds great. So switching gears here for a second, but staying with marketing.

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

We have this, like, a raging debate at Inc. Where we're so excited. You know the book Nuffle Bunny or Knuffle Bunny?

[Jen Zezit]

Yes.

[Diana Ransom]

Okay, so Goodalls or Goodles? Okay, so some people here think that the brand should be pronounced as Goodles, like noodles. But you obviously pronounce it as Goodles.

[Jen Zezit]

Yes.

[Diana Ransom]

And I think that everybody here agrees, and we understand that the brand, like, ethos, is, like, to do Gooder. So we get it. But at the same time, like, did you mean for that to have confusion? And is that in itself, like, kind of a marketing sun?

[Jen Zezit]

So if you're asking Paul, Paul would say he loves that. It could be Goodles. It could be Goodles. It could be whatever you want it to be. Whatever makes you happy. And that is true. I definitely agree with that. That's true. However, someone with a name like Zezzit, I believe a brand is a person. So when I meet someone and if I don't really know how to say their name, I want to make sure I get your name right. How do you say your name? I don't want them to say it's whatever you wanna. Whatever you wanna do. I wanna say, no, no, no. I'm. I'm meeting you like I want. I wanna meet you. So I think the answer is both. Like, there is a way. We are Gooddles. We emphasize the good in noodles. Gooder. And so that emphasis on good is how we say it, and everyone at the company says it. So if you ever ask me, how do you say it? My answer is, we say Gooddles because we emphasize the goodr and noodles Goodr. But honestly, say it however you want and whatever makes you smile, that's totally fine with us, and we love it.

[Diana Ransom]

So the Nuffle Knuffle Bunny debate rages on.

[Jen Zezit]

Yes, it does.

[Diana Ransom]

So speaking of another Marketing point. The packaging. We talked about how it had to be really like shocking when you walked by the aisle so you would capture people's attention. The advice you got though before starting the company was quite the opposite. And do you feel very vindicated at this point? Tell us about the advice that you got before you started the company and then like, why did you decide to go the opposite direction?

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah. Thank you for remembering that. It's a real and important kind of part of our story. We were told no by lots and lots of VCs. So even though it looked like a cherry, cherry, cherry moment for Paul and I In that first 15 minutes of talking together.

[Diana Ransom]

You mean venture capitalists didn't, didn't he get it right away?

[Jen Zezit]

No offense to him, are VC friends of the world, but I think they all think they're visionaries and sometimes they're not. No, we were told no maybe a hundred times at the beginning. And yeah, so a lot of it was due to the packaging. They said if it's better for you and if it's healthy, it should be green. You should have veggies all over the front. Like, you know it has spinach in it. Put spinach on the box. I even got in order to telegraph protein. Could you have like broccoli on there? Like doing push ups? You know, kids will love that. So like everything about that advice was, I will say it did not sway us at all. Pawel and I like, nope, keep looking. Because clearly they don't get it. We believed from the very beginning that they're gonna go big and if we wanted to build a mass brand, which, you know, you asked that question in the beginning, are we niche? Are we mass? If you're building a mass brand, it has to have mass appeal. It can't look like a little niche, healthy something. So we didn't want veggies on our box. We didn't want it to be green. It wasn't for kids. So we don't want anthropomorphic veggies doing push ups or anything like that. And I was like, no, just keep looking. We never once had a conversation of like, gosh, maybe we should think twice. Maybe we should make it greener, healthier. Not even one single time. I was like, no, we'll just keep looking. Like they're gonna see it eventually.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, I like that. The takeaway from that was, you know, after all those nos, you realized actually they're not the right person for us.

[Jen Zezit]

If you've done your work and you've really done the math, like, if you just kind of have an idea and you're putting it out there and someone disagrees, really do listen to smart people. And we listened to a lot of smart people as we were building our business plan. But if it's truly thought through and you feel it in, at least I feel it in my bones. Don't be swayed by it. Just keep looking. There's going to be someone who sees the world the way that you see the world, and that's who you want as your partner. And we're just so lucky to have found the investors that we do have around the table, because that belief in the product will get you through. A belief in, you know, an alignment on what the product and the brand can and should be. It'll get you through, obviously, the good times. But the good times are easy to get through. It's the hard times that will get you through. If you're aligned on that. It even comes through in the term sheet that you get the terms. In your term sheet, you can tell if someone's a believer or if they're not really a believer, because how do.

[Diana Ransom]

You tell on the term sheet?

[Jen Zezit]

Completely? Because it could have a lot of, like, preference and financial engineering and if it fails and if it's this and it's this and all that kind of stuff.

[Diana Ransom]

So they're covering their ass versus exactly. Like being a partner.

[Jen Zezit]

Yes. So if you get a term sheet that is totally clean, that basically is like, we're all in this together and no matter what happens, we are equals. When all things said and done, as long as we can get to this level, that's a believer. So I see. Find your believers. And it's the most important thing. Now, you can't always do that. I've had so many. You do the best you can and you get the deal that you possibly can. But do think twice about starting a company, because if it's not structured right from the very beginning and you have a term sheet that really is demotivating to either you or your employees, then what are you doing this for? What are you putting all that life force into this? Cause it takes everything. It takes every ounce of life force that you have and a little bit more to do this. So actually, one of those most important things that you're ever gonna do is just the agreements up front. When you sign those deals with your financial partners, better make sure that you're aligned on that vision.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Well, you were also talking. The importance of team is kind of coming through here too. So you Mentioned Paul. He has a CPG background, was at Northwestern. And then you teamed up with Deb Luster, who was, I guess, the original president of Annie's.

[Jen Zezit]

Yes.

[Diana Ransom]

And then Wonder Woman. Like, how does all this happen?

[Jen Zezit]

Oh, my gosh. And Molly, Molly, Molly, Molly, Molly, Molly. She's truly our Wonder Woman because she's our formulator, our magic, magic R and D formulator who somehow makes all this taste yummy.

[Diana Ransom]

Good job, Molly.

[Jen Zezit]

But, yes, it really is all about team. And that's actually the other thing that's part of the Cherry Cherry moment. It was just like, oh, my gosh, I know all the people. And that's the benefit of being so old as I am. I've done so many companies, and every time you do a company, you kind of log, you know, like, ooh, if I were ever doing that, I'm definitely pulling in that person and that person as person. And Paul did the exact same thing. I mean, Dan Chaudhar, executive creative director, is like the best he's ever worked with at all of his agency life. And Greg and I have worked together for years and years, and luckily, we have good enough relationships that we can pick up the bat phone and be like, I need you. And everyone jumped at it.

[Diana Ransom]

What's the key lesson you learned from, like, starting up other companies before you founded Goodalls?

[Jen Zezit]

There's a million things that you learned. Like, I've made so many mistakes, and I think that, you know, whatever, we're making different mistakes, or at least I'm not making all the mistakes I made in the first company or the second company or the third company. So there's so many mistakes. Yeah. Yeah. We just look forward to making new ones.

[Diana Ransom]

Well, hopefully. I mean, and hopefully they get less onerous, the mistakes as you go. I don't know. Maybe not. If you're going as big as you're.

[Jen Zezit]

Going each time, it is a little bit different. The speed and scale of this company comes with a whole new set of challenges that I've never had before. So we're always. We're just figuring stuff out every. Every single day. So, yeah, it does pose. And when you're tripling every year, almost tripling every year for this many years, for three years. It's.

[Diana Ransom]

What's the downside of that fast growth?

[Jen Zezit]

Oh, my gosh. Ask my team. We're exhausted. We're exhausted because I sometimes tell them it's dog years. We do dog years. Oh, really?

[Diana Ransom]

We've been around four years, but actually 28.

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah. We've been market for three years. But basically it's been the same that another brand would do in 21, but which is really true, like Kodiak cakes or something like that. A better for you brand. 23 years, I want to say, in the making. Even Annie's great company, great band. They really didn't take off till you were 13. Rao's more than 30 years. So it usually takes a really long time. And we're facing all the same challenges that every brand has to. Oops, Hi. We need way more, and you can't supply it. What can you do? And trying to figure things out, and it's all the same problems. But having to do it this quickly is freakishly weird. But you have to have the right people. You have to have the right people who are like, all right, let's go.

[Diana Ransom]

Figure that out next. And then how do you keep that magic alive? Like, how do you keep the culture positive?

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah. Cause it was really exhausting, and my team is incredible. But winning is really, really fun. So it's rewarding. It's really rewarding to come back from a retailer pitch and just saying, oh, my gosh, you guys, guess what happened? Or, you know, seeing the record sales numbers come in week after week after week, you're just like, is this actually happening? So we are definitely addicted to winning. That external validation of legendary business performance is something that really actually defines us.

[Diana Ransom]

How do you hire for that? Somebody who might be inspired by winning?

[Jen Zezit]

Yeah, it's super important, and we're not apologetic about it at all, because there is a lot of joy and a lot of fun and a lot of weird and a lot of love and care that we have for one another. That's all true for this culture and this brand, but that winning part and legendary business results is kind of at the core, and it always has been. So even our mission statement, which we say all the time and we make sure that every employee knows what they're signing up for, but we say that we're an elite team with arms locked, having fun and doing the best work of our lives in order to create a legendary product and a legendary brand to generate legendary impact in our communities. All at service to generating legendary business results. So it's like, right there in our mission statement, and we do talk about it all the time, but it can't be separated. I mean, imagine a company where it's just goofy and fun and all those sorts of things, but it's failing. That's. That's not fun. It's just not fun. Like, winning is definitely this team's culture. So we talk about it all the time.

[Diana Ransom]

It's also like proving that what you're doing is right and doing well.

[Jen Zezit]

It means we're on the right track. Because a lot of times in business. Yeah, because a lot of time you're like, is this the right call? Is this the right. Is that the right call? Or especially when you got, like, VCs or others in the industry telling you it's a bad choice, man, it makes it really, really fun.

[Diana Ransom]

That is tough. So this idea of legendary business results, gosh, you say it with such confidence that I truly believe it. And I. I'm a believer in exactly what you're saying, but I'm wondering, like, when did you realize that you needed to do this? You could have a cute company, you could, like, have a disco in the grocery store aisle, but you also need to get legendary business results.

[Jen Zezit]

Well, I can tell you the exact moment that I realized that. It was after selling my first company, which is great, that we had an exit. Gal Lab Scout Labs. And it was 16 months after launch and had lots and lots of CPG and great companies that are customers. And right after that, the CEO of the acquiring company sat me down and said, wow, you're such a great leader and your team likes you and loves you and all that kind of stuff, but you had a smallish exit, which is great and all, but you're never actually going to have a big exit because you think that people matter and you think culture matters and all this, like, how you do what you do. Jen, it's a game. And unless you play the game, you're never gonna truly do anything really big. And it was in that moment where I was like, okay, on the one hand, we're gonna agree to disagree on that one. On the other hand, he's actually right that if you just have a fun, crazy brand or you just have a yummy product, or you just treat people well and just those sorts of things, no one really cares if it just fizzles and dies out. We haven't changed anything. We haven't changed what VCs choose to fund. We haven't changed the industry. We haven't changed anyone's thinking about what's possible. If you're going into business, the measure of success for business is a legendary outcome. Like, you have to have great, profitable business results. And then that will change people's thinking of what's possible. People will look at the next Goodall's and say, oh, I want people to copy our great nutrition Please, everyone, please copy Goodalls. Great nutrition. Change the way that we're making food because Goodalls was successful. Please change the way that we invest in CEOs. Still, females are only 4% of VC backed companies. That's ridiculous. 4% of VC backed companies are led by women. It should be much, much higher than that. But again, until we have a legendary business outcome, it's not gonna change the culture. But I want to change the culture.

[Diana Ransom]

But it wasn't because you cared about your team, right? Like, what he was saying was that because you care about your team, you're never gonna achieve legendary business results.

[Jen Zezit]

And right then and there I said, okay, I get it. I getcha. That's how we change this guy's mind. This is how we change a culture, is you actually do it. And once you do it, they're gonna look back at all the ways the how that you did what you did and that will then be validated. So I want people to pattern match against Godel's as a product. I want people to see amazing, joyful new ideas. I want them to see passionate women leading companies and be like, God, she reminds me of a Jen. But they're not going to say that until we do something really big. So, yeah, that's the moment where I was just like, no, we got to do something big. Because I want people to look back and that's the legacy that I think we all, as a team, and they all know that story. They are conscripted into my mission. And we're all on this together. We're gonna change the way that people think about what can be successful and how you can be successful. Because how we really believe that how you do it matters. It's not just what's in that box. It's the joy and the care that we put into it. I know it matters. So we just have to prove it. And we haven't done it yet, but we will.

[Diana Ransom]

You're on your way.

[Jen Zezit]

We're on our way.

[Diana Ransom]

We're on our way. Did that factor into the idea that from the outset of going big, like because you wanted to achieve legendary business.

[Jen Zezit]

Results, probably psychiatric ability.

[Diana Ransom]

I understand you.

[Jen Zezit]

We just laid out a little bit here. Yes, I guess I've never made that connection, but you are probably right.

[Diana Ransom]

I understand it all.

[Jen Zezit]

I apparently knew. I get it more than I have ever thought about it, but thank you.

[Diana Ransom]

Well, if I can do nothing else, I can help you look in the mirror. There are so many interesting things, but the one thing that really jumped out at me was the unsolicited advice that she had gotten from the acquiring company that her first company had been sold.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

She sold a marketing firm, right? Yeah, yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

So this person basically told her, you know, your company's really cute and everything, and, yeah, we want to buy it, but you're never going to actually lead a really impressive business one day because you care about your people too much. I mean, that's just. That's ridiculous. I mean, you want to be in business because you want to run your own schedule. You want to be able to control your life. We talk to female founders all the time who have various reasons, but a lot of them, at the end of the day, want to have a really strong culture. They care about the people that work with them. And so this idea of running a company that one day has legendary business results. So she can go do all the weird things or the amazing cultural things that she wants to do at her actual business and have that be the thing that allows you to be weird, to, like, lean into the weird and to, like, jump off the shelf, for instance, like.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah, I love that. To what extent do you think that was, like, this thing that stuck in her brain and motivated her?

[Diana Ransom]

I mean, the way she talks about it. Like, I've talked to her separately outside of this conversation, and she's, like, a big fan of this term legendary business results. So I kind of suspect that it, like, permeates her entire existence in a way that's really, like, amazing. But I think it's true. At the end of the day, you want to run a business that's gonna make an. And if you don't spur enormous sales, maybe you won't have that impact. And that's a big takeaway for our audience and for anyone who's trying to disrupt the pasta aisle.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I love it. And Goodalls now is the number one highest velocity Mac and cheese vegan Mac and cheese in the country.

[Jen Zezit]

Right.

[Diana Ransom]

We write about fast growth all the time, and it's nice when you meet an entrepreneur who's, you know, not just speaking a good game, but actually they're walking the talk. You know, she's running this company with her family, too. Yeah. And it's. It's kind of cute. And they're really scrappy, and it's beyond cute.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I mean, she's writing her own rules for success, so.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, we should all be so lucky.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

That's all for this episode of from the Ground Up.

[Diana Ransom]

Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your podcast platform of choice. Also, if you liked this episode or have suggestions for topics you'd like to hear about, reach out to us on inc's social channels and leave us a review wherever you listen from the Ground.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Up is produced by Avery Miles, Sam Gebauer and Hawa Ohtori with Diana Ransome and myself. Lead producer is Blake Odom editing by Matt Toder, mix and sound design by Nicholas Torres. Our Executive producer is Josh Christensen. Thanks for listening and we will see you next week.

[Diana Ransom]

Panopl.