Let’s Talk About Skims!

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Let’s Talk About Skims!"
From the Ground Up | Inc. Magazine
Release Date: October 28, 2024

From the Ground Up is a compelling podcast series by Inc. Magazine, hosted by Executive Editor Diana Ransom and Editor-at-Large Christine Lagorio-Chafkin. In the October 28, 2024 episode titled "Let’s Talk About Skims!", the hosts delve into the meteoric rise of Skims, the shapewear and clothing brand founded by Kim Kardashian. Featuring insights from Max Bellinger, the writer behind a significant Inc. 5000 feature on Skims, the episode explores the brand's growth, strategic pivots, product innovations, and future prospects.

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1. Introduction to Skims and Its Growth

Diana Ransom introduces the episode by highlighting Skims' impressive performance on the Inc. 5000 list.

Diana Ransom [02:15]: "It was number 1168 on this year's list, and the revenue quintupled over three years. So their revenue actually was in 2023, $713 million."

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin adds to the discussion, emphasizing Skims' expansion beyond shapewear.

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [02:19]: "I know that people love Skims. I mean, and it's not just shapewear. It's like sweatshirts. It's awesome."

---

2. Skims' Evolution Beyond Shapewear

The conversation shifts to how Skims has diversified its product line, venturing into new markets and collaborations.

Diana Ransom [03:04]: "Not just shapewear clothing. They've gotten into menswear. They've gotten into interesting collabs..."

Max Bellinger underscores Skims' strategic expansions, making the brand more versatile and appealing.

Max Bellinger [03:14]: "So it's not just Shaper anymore. It's not just Kim Kardashian plastering her boudoir all over, is it?"

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3. Kim Kardashian's Integral Role

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Kim Kardashian's influence and her direct involvement with Skims.

Max Bellinger [05:32]: "She's been able to make shapewear cool and outerwear. She's turning something intimate into something celebratory."

Diana Ransom highlights Kim's personal investment and presence in the brand's narrative.

Diana Ransom [06:10]: "She's owning her own body."

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4. Product Innovations: The Nipple Bra

One of the standout moments is the introduction of Skims' "nipple bra," a product that garnered both attention and emotional responses.

Diana Ransom [09:13]: "The earth's temperature is getting hotter and hotter... introducing a brand new bra with a built-in nipple."

Max elaborates on the product's reception and its deeper emotional resonance.

Max Bellinger [08:17]: "She did something really fun. She took these famous NBA and soccer players and she stripped them down to their underwear."

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5. Strategic Collaborations and Brand Positioning

The episode discusses Skims' numerous collaborations and strategic partnerships that have bolstered its market presence.

Max Bellinger [12:10]: "They've done collaborations with Fendi, with Swarovski... They're constantly expanding within the shapewear foundation."

Diana Ransom raises a critical question about potential brand dilution due to extensive collaborations.

Diana Ransom [18:54]: "Is it possible to have too many collaborations? Are you diluting the brand by being too out there?"

Max offers reassurance, emphasizing that Skims maintains its brand integrity through thoughtful partnerships.

Max Bellinger [19:12]: "She's not doing suits or blazers... Still feels Kardashian adjacent... It all makes sense for the Kardashian world."

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6. Future Prospects: IPO and Sustaining Growth

The conversation transitions to Skims' future, particularly the considerations around going public and maintaining growth momentum.

Diana Ransom [21:30]: "They hired a CFO from Amazon... Sounds like a plan to go public."

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin probes the potential impacts of an IPO on Skims' brand and royalties.

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [22:04]: "Does she lose some royalties? Potentially."

Max provides insights into Kim's commitment to the brand's creative direction post-IPO.

Max Bellinger [22:26]: "She seemed really dedicated to staying on as a creative partner... She can have fun and be creative."

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7. Comparing Skims to Industry Peers

The hosts draw comparisons between Skims and other brands like Spanx and Victoria's Secret, analyzing their market strategies and cultural impacts.

Diana Ransom [25:03]: "What I like about it too, is that she's managed to overcome the prior barriers... Giving up the 'Kimono' name due to cultural appropriation."

Max discusses the challenges faced by traditional brands and how Skims differentiates itself.

Max Bellinger [27:53]: "Victoria's Secret is sort of in this world to a certain degree... Spanx launched with a very wide array of colors... Skims made it fun and celebratory."

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8. Mastering the Art of the Drop and Scarcity

Skims' marketing prowess, particularly its strategy of limited edition drops and creating anticipation, is highlighted as a key factor in its success.

Diana Ransom [26:27]: "They've mastered the art of the drop... Limited edition launches with famous personalities."

Max confirms the effectiveness of this strategy in maintaining brand excitement and consumer demand.

Max Bellinger [26:40]: "She's been brilliant at keeping her name in the news cycle... launching new products consistently."

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9. Key Takeaways and Lessons for Entrepreneurs

The episode concludes with reflections on Skims' entrepreneurial journey, emphasizing the importance of product-market fit, strategic partnerships, and adaptive growth strategies.

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [30:18]: "Rihanna knew her audience... Kim has done the entrepreneur playbook to success."

Max Bellinger [29:51]: "She could have launched a fancy luxury line, but she chose a democratic, everyday use category. It paid off."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Diana Ransom [02:15]: "Their revenue actually was in 2023, $713 million."
• Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [02:19]: "It's not just shapewear. It's like sweatshirts. It's awesome."
• Max Bellinger [03:14]: "So it's not just Shaper anymore..."
• Diana Ransom [05:10]: "She made it cool."
• Max Bellinger [08:17]: "She did something really fun..."
• Diana Ransom [09:13]: "Introducing a brand new bra with a built-in nipple."
• Max Bellinger [19:12]: "It all makes sense for the Kardashian world."
• Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [22:04]: "Does she lose some royalties? Potentially."
• Max Bellinger [27:53]: "Victoria's Secret is sort of in this world to a certain degree."

---

Conclusion

"Let's Talk About Skims!" offers an in-depth exploration of how Skims transformed from a shapewear line into a multifaceted fashion powerhouse under Kim Kardashian's vision. Through strategic collaborations, innovative products, and adept brand positioning, Skims exemplifies modern entrepreneurial success. The episode serves as an insightful case study for entrepreneurs looking to build dynamic, adaptable, and culturally resonant brands.

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For more detailed insights and the complete conversation with Max Bellinger, visit Inc.com's episode page.

Transcript

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[Diana Ransom]

I'm Inc. Executive Editor Diana Ransom.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And I'm Editor at Large Christine Ligorio Chavkin.

[Diana Ransom]

This is from the ground up, today's.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Episode let's Talk About Skims. So this is our latest episode from our Ink Feature Stories series where we talk about one of our most fascinating recent pieces with the writer who reported it.

[Diana Ransom]

So I wanted to bring in Max Bellinger, who is the writer of a story about skims and Kim Kardashian. This was part of our Inc. 5000 package. And it's amazing because to be honest, Kim has not had the best track record in terms of running fast growing companies. So the fact is skims is on the list this year and it's dynamic and she has a great story and Max wrote a great piece. So we wanted to talk all about it.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah, so this company grew. Like, what was the percentage growth? What was the revenue?

[Diana Ransom]

Well, it was number 1168 on this year's list. And the revenue quintupled over three years. So their revenue actually was in 2023, $713 million.

[Max Bellinger]

Wow.

[Diana Ransom]

Okay. So people are buying a lot of shapewear.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I know that people love skims. I mean, and it's not just shapewear. It's like sweatshirts. It's awesome.

[Diana Ransom]

That's the brilliant thing about it is that they've gotten, they've been growing, but so they're, they're entering into new markets. So yeah, they've been growing. That's, that's the story we wanted to tell is like, okay, so it's not just Shaper anymore. It's not just Kim Kardashian plastering her boudoir all over, is it? Boudoir, her body all over billboards. The company is growing significantly into other avenues. You know, there's clothing.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Not just shapewear clothing. They've gotten into menswear. They've gotten into interesting collabs that were, you know, I wanted to talk about.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I know that the story that Max wrote explores kind of can skims exist without Kim? Right. Can it move past her? But let me ask you, what's gonna be on everyone's mind right now. Did Max talk to Kim Kardashian?

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And she gave him a lot of time. So very gracious of her, actually, because initially, apparently there was 15 minutes, and then she was like, oh, hey, I'm talking to Inc Magazine. Let's give him a little bit more time.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Aw, that's great. All right, well, I can't wait to hear what he has to say.

[Diana Ransom]

So let's get into it. He started off the conversation by telling us a little bit more about skims origin story.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah, I mean, her story is that Kim is a fashion plate. She wears different designer clothes all the time. And she says that shapewear has been a part of her life the whole time. And she even referenced in the story, we mentioned it briefly. There's an episode when I think she's either pregnant or just had one of her children. She's wearing shapewear, and her brother in law walks in on her and is sort of shocked to see her in this sort of crazy, not crazy getup, just, you know, sucked in and wearing shapewear. And she said as she tried different designers, she wasn't finding what she wanted on the market, which is a classic sort of entrepreneurial.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, I have a problem.

[Max Bellinger]

Let me solve it for myself. Exactly. And she says, I mean, you know how apocryphal this is or not. But she said she would dye them herself with tea bags or she would take things and she would cut them up because, you know, one of her jumpsuits only had one leg or whatever. So she was just creating something. She wanted something for herself. And she knew she was very specific about what she wanted, especially in terms with when, you know, in shapewear as it's against your skin so closely and intimately, that's obviously a really important thing. So she wanted something that kept you sucked in, kept you feeling of a certain shape, but also not uncomfortable. And she wanted it to be soft. But I think her big turning point or the big innovation here is that she sort of shapewear had a reputation. I think she calls it old granny.

[Diana Ransom]

I was gonna say. I mean, she kind of took this category that was dusty for all intents and purposes. You know, there were girdles before then. I guess Spanx was around. Spanx.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Like, if you think about it, it was a huge leap, but it wasn't like, changing the aesthetic. Right.

[Diana Ransom]

I think what Kim did was she made it cool, right.

[Max Bellinger]

And she made it outerwear. She's. It's sort of, I think, interesting that she's saying you can wear it with a pair of jeans or under a top or, you know, a bustier or something. It can be outerwear, it can be inner wear. But, yeah, I think she sort of made it sex. And I think we talk about this in the story. You know, her body is a big focus of the media. And for better or for worse, how her body looks is something that people obsess over, and she toys with that herself. She's been photographed in Playboy and GQ in different ways. So I think this is a really shrewd move to make her body sort of, you know, the central part of her business. And she's doing it really successfully.

[Diana Ransom]

Right, and she's owning her own body.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, at this point, and we can talk about what the future looks like, but Kim Kardashian and skims are synonymous.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So speaking of her body, I loved the lead of your story. Can you tell us?

[Diana Ransom]

I know I almost did a spit take when I first read that. I was like, it's definitely staying in, but, oh, my God.

[Max Bellinger]

First I have to say, you know, setting up a call with someone like Kim Kardashian is a whole thing, and you sort of get nervous about it, and, you know, you're given 15 minutes with Kim. Can you do it? You know, I think it was like 8pm Eastern time or whatever. Very sort of a whole. I was nervous about it to a certain degree, but it was on zoom. So, you know, she comes on or someone else connects us, and then she. It's a blank screen, and she says, I'm here. I'm getting my hair and makeup done. And then she reveals herself, you know, puts the thing on for a second. She kind of has, you know, people all around her. It's this big, white, vast room. I think she was actually in her house where there's offices very near to her home in Calabasas. But she was getting ready for a photo shoot and said, look, I'm not gonna be on camera, but I do want you to see that I'm here, I'm present, I'm available. And at 15 minutes, someone sort of gently said, okay, you know, one last question. And she was very cool. She said, you know what, we have more time, let's talk, let's keep chatting. I think this is a passion project for Kim. I think again, she's had a couple of false starts in sort of building businesses and this is the one that's taking off. And I think that she's in it. She wants to be publicizing it. She's been going to the store openings, but yeah, so I think, you know, you never know how revealing people will be. But she's sort of launched into one of these stories about her nipple bra, which is quite famous now. It sort of has this built in nipple into it. So they look, can I say erect, but they look erect when you're wearing.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

This is what I wanted to hear. Okay, so how did you ask her, like, how did you ask her about the nipple bra?

[Max Bellinger]

I just said, listen, you know, I always say, what's the hardest thing you've done so far? What's the most rewarding thing? What's your favorite product? And she, you know, again, you sort of never know. You might get a little bit of a canned response. She launched right into. She said, the nipple bra. I love the nipple bra. Like, you know, I didn't. And I think the thing.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Did you know what it was?

[Max Bellinger]

I didn't know what it was. I remember when it came out and it sold out and I think the Washington Post might have written sort of about breast and like where they are culturally. And again, Kim's body is sort of, you know, a big topic of discussion amongst culture people and the media. So it was super smart and savvy. I mean, she made this, you know, a limited run of these bras that look like that. You could see the nipple in them. But.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And it's her. It's modeled after her.

[Max Bellinger]

It's modeled after her, which she was even more proud of. And she kind of, you know, again, the marketing is great for skims and she has these really cheeky.

[Diana Ransom]

Let's explain. Cause like the launch of it was unusual too.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah, I mean, she released them on social media. She's one of the most followed people on social media. And she had these sort of cheeky videos where she's sort of like, you know, she has these like nerdy Glasses on. But she's wearing this very sexy outfit and kind of playing a faux scientist vibe.

[Diana Ransom]

The earth's temperature is getting hotter and hotter. The sea levels are rising, the ice sheets are shrinking. And I'm not a scientist, but I do believe everyone can use their skill set to do their part. That's why I'm introducing a brand new bra with a built in nipple. So no matter how hot it is, you'll always look cold. Some days are hard, but these nipples are harder. And unlike the icebergs, these aren't going anywhere.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

What does that have to do with them?

[Diana Ransom]

That's my point. It made no sense, but kind of, in a way it was brilliant. And the nipple bra sold out.

[Max Bellinger]

It did. It sold out. And I think they've re released it a couple of times. You know, she said some of the response she got was from breast cancer survivors who really saw themselves in that and which really touched her. And she hadn't thought, you know, I think she sort of thought of it as she knew that it would be like a cheeky, fun thing, but she didn't really expect that response. And that touched her. Her grandmother, I believe, is a breast cancer survivor as well. So, you know, I think again, what she does, people are going to talk about it. So she is not afraid of courting controversy, of being, you know, again, it was, it's kind of campy. The whole brand has a fun vibe to it. It has a, you know, that's another thing shapewear, I think was. It's something you hide. Something that's meant to hide your body. Something that's almost shameful. And this is not. This is very cheeky. This is very fun. It's celebratory. Yeah, totally.

[Diana Ransom]

And kind of cultivating it how you want it to be.

[Max Bellinger]

Right. I think Spanx was, as you had mentioned, it is a such a category leader and such an. It was like really broke boundaries. But I think maybe it sort of had failed to evolve with like tastes and changing consumers.

[Diana Ransom]

It was more of like a utility item. Yeah, absolutely.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Kind of a white person thing, if I can see that. Right. I mean, like Sarah Blakely is a white woman, I'm a white woman. And I recall like seeing in a Target store a bunch of light colored Spanx. And perhaps that's simply my demographic speaking. I'm sure she has other colors of it now, but back 10 years ago, I don't recall that.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah, and that's a wonderful point because Spanx launched with a very, very wide array of colors. And that was Like a huge thing. I mean, it's 12 or 15, I think, and it remains to be that there's a very big range. So, yes, it was just innately inclusive in terms of body shape, but also in terms of skin. Skin tones and all that. So.

[Diana Ransom]

So obviously Kim is not at working alone. She's done some marvelous things. But who. Who else is helping out behind the scenes?

[Max Bellinger]

The CEO and I believe a co founder. Yeah. Is Jens Greed, who is a Swedish entrepreneur. He came from the marketing and advertising world. He launched Frame Denim with a partner and he's married to. What's her name?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Emma Greed.

[Diana Ransom]

Emma Greed.

[Max Bellinger]

Emma. Emma.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Emma Greed.

[Max Bellinger]

Emma Greed.

[Diana Ransom]

Emma Greed is also like a founding partner of Skims.

[Max Bellinger]

Yes, she is. She's involved. She was the way that Jens and Kim met, they all live in Los Angeles. Emma is very actively involved in Good American, which is Kim's sister Khloe's inclusive sizing denim brand. So, yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

So Emma also has a company with the matriarch Kardashians called Safely.

[Max Bellinger]

Yes.

[Diana Ransom]

So they're. It's like a one big happy family. Yeah.

[Max Bellinger]

So Emma and James are very, very closely connected to the Kardashian business business ventures and what a great place to be. I've seen their house in Architectural Digest and it's paying off for them.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, no, absolutely. What was that? The Nancy Meyers kitchen.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, my goodness.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah, yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

It's worth checking out.

[Max Bellinger]

Absolutely, absolutely. So. But, yeah, Jens is definitely there. You know, again, he comes from an advertising and marketing background. He's launched a brand himself, Frame, which it does quite well. And he also.

[Diana Ransom]

In the marketing world, he also did a couple of celebrity kind of launches.

[Max Bellinger]

Right.

[Diana Ransom]

I feel like Natalie Portman was one.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah. Natalie Portman for Dior and I think Beyonce for. So he. Yeah, he understands how to channel or to take control of, like, celebrity image and partner them with fashion images and create, you know, good synergy. So, yeah. And I mean, he was, you know, he's an interesting guy. I mean, we chatted really quickly and, you know, he's very Swedish. He's sort of like to the point. But, you know, I mean, I think he really put a lot on Kim. He said, you know, we do a lot of things and they do. They do collaborations. They've launched. Since they've launched shapewear, we should say they've launched loungewear, they've launched activewear. They're, you know, they've done collaborations with Fendi, with Swarovski. So within this shapewear foundation, they've really spun in a lot of directions. And he really stressed to me that, you know, we walk around the office. This is a team project, and there's people here on our staff that love sports. We want to be involved with sports.

[Diana Ransom]

Right, right. The WNBA and NBA.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah, Partnerships.

[Diana Ransom]

The Olympics, too. Right?

[Max Bellinger]

Yes.

[Diana Ransom]

They became the shapewear brand of the Olympics. Or the underwear brand.

[Max Bellinger]

Right. Or they, like, dressed them. It's kind of funny. I thought the Olympics is interesting because to be an official Olympic sort of person, I think is different than what they did. But they were definitely actively involved with dressing Olympians in certain circumstances.

[Diana Ransom]

Okay.

[Max Bellinger]

Like, I think, like, Ralph Lauren might have, like, the real.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Right.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, right.

[Max Bellinger]

The. Right. Like, I think, like, Nike might have it on in practice, and then, like, the sort of opening ceremony thing. So it's. I don't want to miss an episode.

[Diana Ransom]

About, like, the Olympics.

[Max Bellinger]

Oh, yeah, yeah. The branding opportunity that we saw. But, yeah, they've taken, like, their passions. Kim is obviously, like, a fashion girl, and she loves to. A funny thing she says is that she's always in either, like, a beautiful ball gown or at home in sweats, which is what? Loungewear. How loungewear launched.

[Diana Ransom]

Can someone hand me the phone? Hello? Hi, Kim.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

We gotta leave in five minutes.

[Diana Ransom]

Kim, you've gotta go.

[Max Bellinger]

Okay.

[Diana Ransom]

Whoever said loungewear was only for the house hasn't tried skims.

[Max Bellinger]

And loungewear actually launched shortly before the pandemic, so they, you know, this.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, my God. Perfectly timed.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah, yeah. So I think that all sort of helped build this momentum that, like, yes, shapewear was the foundation. But, yeah, as you had mentioned, it was. You know, she couldn't have known there was a pandemic, but she did happen to launch a category that would be perfect for us staying at home. And I have to say, the brand very graciously sent me a couple of things, and they sent me some of them, their new men's stuff, and it's really, really excellent. And whenever I talk to any of my female friends about me doing this story, they all say, and I have a. I wait for the bra. You know, it's the product. Very, very, very good. I have to say, the material, which she was sort of obsessed with, it's sort of that perfect, comfortable, but, you know, resilient and feels like it's just cozy. It's just like sweats. You want to, like, lay in all day that you gave me some sweats and some underwear.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

When we come back, we'll ask Max if skims is worried about all these collaborations diluting its brand. But first, a quick break.

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[Diana Ransom]

Well, you mentioned the collaborations a little bit there. Is there any concern that, I mean, I think that like what's the downside? What are the headwinds for this company? Is it possible to have too many collaborations? Are you diluting the brand by being too out there? If you're growing too fast, are you losing that exclusive nature?

[Max Bellinger]

I think potentially yes. I don't think that they're quite there yet. I spoke to an analyst and said, look, she's not doing suits or Blazers. She's not, you know what I mean? She's doing things that still feel Kardashian adjacent. She has such a strong brand image in the culture and she's staying within that realm for now. You know, I can't speak to what the next five years will look like, but you know, she, it all makes sense for the Kardashian world. Skims is playing in those worlds. So right now it feels smart and shrewd. You know, the men's launch was again, you know, a really successful launch and she did something really fun. She took these famous NBA and soccer players and she stripped them down to their underwear. My name is Shay Gibbs Alexander. I'm Nick Bosa and I play professional football and I play basketball for the Oklahoma City Thunder.

[Glenfiddich Ad]

Everybody, everybody, everybody's wearing skims.

[Max Bellinger]

She's not afraid of being again, cheeky but sexy and playing with that duality and it's sort of part of her brand and she's been able to really funnel that into marketing beautifully. So I think as of now, the growth path seems to be really exciting and I think that she's sort of still there.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

What about, I mean it is a venture funded company, right? I mean there is that kind of built in growth pressure. Right. And this brand is already huge. Like, how does it sustain that momentum? How does it sustain that growth to please its investors?

[Max Bellinger]

Well, it's been almost exclusively DTC with very few wholesale partners. So just over the summer they really started opening stores. So they're starting, you're going to start seeing a skims at your local mall very soon. And I think. Yeah, so I think Jens mentioned, you know, I forget what exactly the number is, but you know, DTC is a pretty. Is still a relatively small channel for most companies. So they see a lot of growth opportunity in opening their own stores. And though, you know, I always think it could go either way. But the first stores, people are lining up outside. We got pictures from someone.

[Diana Ransom]

They have the shop in Georgetown and.

[Max Bellinger]

Oh wow, people wait outside.

[Diana Ransom]

And again it's like noon and a like ridiculously hot day.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And there's a line.

[Diana Ransom]

There is a line while people waiting.

[Max Bellinger]

So she's starting to explore markets. She's done a couple of popups in LA and New York. But now we're starting to see the real full time in real life skims retail experience unfold. So.

[Diana Ransom]

So they're also doing some interesting things like, you know, basically plotting to what a lot of people are saying is plotting to go public. They hired a CFO Andy Muir. I might be saying his name wrong, but he's from Amazon, so he's the cfo. I think you hired him a couple of years. And then just all the money that they have from venture capital firms, I mean, they just raised like $270 million. Yeah, that'll do it.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

It does sound like a plan to go public.

[Diana Ransom]

Sounds like it might be going public. So the question is, can they go public and can be a part of it when they're public, or if it.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Does go public, why not?

[Diana Ransom]

Does it lose?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Why not? I mean, she loses some royalties, right? Potentially. Doesn't she have, like a 5% royalty built into every sale at this point?

[Max Bellinger]

I mean, yes, I believe that.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

So that would dissolve pot.

[Diana Ransom]

But I mean, all the money she'd make from the IPO would really be.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah, I mean, the woman. Does she need money?

[Max Bellinger]

Right?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I don't think that's really a question right now.

[Diana Ransom]

Well, I mean, who doesn't.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Is what.

[Max Bellinger]

Diana, who doesn't want more money? But, you know, I think she seemed really dedicated to staying on as a creative partner. She made that pretty clear. And again, I think that after a couple of fits and starts, when you find the thing that is really, really your rocket to success, you kind of wanna stay on. I mean, this is. It also seems fun. Like, she has her sisters do ads, she has her friends do ads. It does seem like a your fun, cool side project, but it's just a $4 billion business. I get a sense that she really enjoys it and she can. You know, I think she also mentioned this a few times in the interview. She's really, really generous in saying she's not alone. She's traveling, she's busy, she's a mother. She has other. She dabbles in other things that. I don't want to say that she's not working hard at this, but, you know, she has a really solid team under her that's helping with this. So I think she gets to, like, you know, have fun and be creative and.

[Diana Ransom]

And in fact, that's probably the only way that SK survive without Kim. Not without her. But, like, if they were to sell the company to some, like, private equity company, for instance, they wouldn't necessarily have that Kim magic anymore.

[Max Bellinger]

I mean, the name skims to me is always very interesting because it references her, but is. It is not Kim Kardashian brand or Kim Kardashian shapewear. So it can exist without her. It could move on without her. Ostensibly without her. You know, I mean. Yeah, it is not named after her. So someone else could take over or someone else could do something. So I think she's interestingly set herself up for the company to have a life beyond her, though I don't know that that will happen anytime soon.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Or that you want that.

[Max Bellinger]

No, or that we want that. You know, I mean, look at the high fashion space and all the changing of the garden every day. It's like a new thing. But, you know, I think once the founder leaves, like a little bit of the magic leaves kind of. So I don't know. If I were Kim, I'd stay for, you know, until they kicked me out. Especially if I was printing money the way it's doing right now.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I like, entered this interview with a little bit of an eyebrow raise. I don't own any Skims items. I've never consumed enough reality TV to fall in love with the Kardashians. But honestly, like, it sounds like Kim has done, like, the entrepreneur playbook to success. Right? Like, build something that you have a need for that you love. Like hire the right people with the areas of expertise, like work with your family, work with your friends in enough of a capacity that you enjoy it and not in a burdensome way. And. Wow.

[Diana Ransom]

What I like about it too, is that she's managed to overcome the prior barriers. Like, for instance, naming the company Kimono.

[Max Bellinger]

Yes.

[Diana Ransom]

That was probably a misconception.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Oh, that was the first name.

[Max Bellinger]

Yes, that was the first name. And it was immediately shot.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Kimono.

[Diana Ransom]

Yes, Kimono.

[Max Bellinger]

And it was shot down. Yeah, pretty quickly.

[Diana Ransom]

Cultural appropriation.

[Max Bellinger]

Yes.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And wasn't there some early fashion show with involving Kanye's brand where it kind of looked like Skims? I don't know if this was after Skims started or not. It was like all the sheer clothes.

[Diana Ransom]

Like, do you remember that?

[Max Bellinger]

I do remember this.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I don't. I don't.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah, I don't. I don't remember the timing. But obviously, you know, she's married. She was married to a really controversial figure who has a big name in fashion and courts controversy in a different way. Very different than she does. You know, I mean, she's media savvy and a much different way than he is, so. But yeah, I do. You know, I think fascinatingly, they together have created a really strong aesthetic vision for themselves. I mean, they're like the master marketers of our time, like, in terms of brand self branding. And then they've been able to extend that to various projects with varying degrees of success. But I would say you know, Skims is one of them. I mean, Kanye's brand, Yeezy is also one of them, you know, but. And, and to say they're a married couple that they have. There's overlap. There is not that surprising.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. And it's also, I think to some degree, they hitch their sales with the right partners.

[Max Bellinger]

Yes, always. Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Between Emma and Jens and the other people they ended up working with. Sound good? One thing that I think is also brilliant about Skims is they've sort of mastered the art of the drop.

[Max Bellinger]

Yes.

[Diana Ransom]

You know, sort of like we're only going to make like a limited edition of such and such, and then you can only get it for a such and such period of time. And, oh, by the way, I'm going to launch it with this famous person, so everybody's going to hear about it and you're going to want it, right?

[Max Bellinger]

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, Skim, you know, my boyfriend works in public relations and he always talks about this. You got to keep your name in the. In the news. And I mean, every month there's something, you know, there was a time, there was a time, I would say earlier this year, late last year, every week there was. We have an WNBA partnership where, you know, Nicola Coughlin from Bridgerton is going to. Is our new face. Lana Del Rey is our new face. We have a, you know, we're launching Men. And she knows how to keep her name in the news cycle at a very, very steady clip. And then whether or not you can acquire the Fendi, you know, or the Swarovski collaboration, but you'll be on the website and you'll look for the bra, you'll look for the T shirt, you'll look for, you know, the corset, the bodysuit, whatever. So, yeah, she's been brilliant at. And by the way, she has. I believe that they've built like sort of a studio close to her home in Calabasas. Jens, I believe, is working in Hollywood at an office, but they have a studio very close to her home. So she can be constantly cranking out content. Cause that's what, you know, I mean, again, she's a social media celebrity first and foremost and she knows how to like, keep those wheels rolling.

[Diana Ransom]

Nice. Are there any other brands that you think are, like, up and coming or kind of like stealing the model at all?

[Max Bellinger]

Ooh, I don't know. Not off the top of my head. I mean, look, I'm fascinated. Another one that you sort of. We didn't talk about Spanx was obviously. But I think. I can't help but think that, like, Victoria's Secret is sort of in this world to a certain degree, and we're watching Victoria's Secret go sort of through some interesting cultural changes. They're trying to, like.

[Diana Ransom]

I mean, didn't they just implode?

[Max Bellinger]

They imploded. But, I mean, maybe they're, like, rising again, but they're doing, you know, next week or the week after, they're going back to doing their big fancy angels.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, gosh. Really?

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah. So, I mean, that's another episode or something.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Last century, in a way, right?

[Max Bellinger]

It does. But I think that they did this sort of. They did a season where it was less about, you know, the pretty models wearing the wings and stuff. And I don't think it resonated. I think that as much as people kind of online were miffed about it, at the end of it, they, in.

[Diana Ransom]

The end, wanted the pretty models.

[Max Bellinger]

I think that we want the pretty models and the sparkly bra. And, I mean, we're very simple human beings. We just want sparkly, pretty things, like, you know what I mean? But I don't know. I can't think of anyone who's really, like, in the shapewear.

[Diana Ransom]

Maybe it's not shapewear. I mean, I think that to some degree, like, the whole. You know, we talked about it before, and this podcast is, like, the scarcity of product launches and how to really kind of master the art of anticipation and also just to keep people wanting more is kind of fascinating. And if you can engineer that as an entrepreneur, I mean, it seems like that's, like, the recipe for success.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah. I don't know anyone. I can't think of anyone off the top of my head who's kind of nipping at her heels. But I was thinking on the way over about how Rihanna sort of had the Fenty luxury clothing line and that kind of fizzled, and LVMH backed that. And I just was thinking about Kim could have easily gone into, like, a luxury fashion space, and she didn't. She went into, like, a really democratic sort of everyday use category and that.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

At, like, an affordable enough price point.

[Max Bellinger]

Yes, yes. It's, like, perfectly priced. Yeah, I think that's a great point. Like, she could have sort of tried to, like, launch this fancy thing, which she is often, you know, thought of in the same sentence, and. And she didn't. She went in a different direction, and it's paid off. It's. You know, I think there's more people who can buy, like, a $60 bra than there are a $2,500 dress or whatever, so 100%.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And Rihanna, she knew her audience. Right. She knew, like, who her followers are.

[Max Bellinger]

Totally. I mean, the only other people I can kind of think of are like the sisters. I mean, Chloe's, you know. You know, I mean, maybe it's like Emma and Jens are sort of like the real people who are like, you know, able to.

[Diana Ransom]

I'm sure they would chafe at that. But.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah, sorry, I don't want to. But, you know, I mean, Kylie has been able to sort of turn her beauty and Kim also has a beauty line that's sort of gone through different iterations. They've all built really robust businesses. I mean, I believe Kylie is also a billionaire.

[Diana Ransom]

Right. So Courtney's business is good American that she. She co founded alongside Emma Greed and that we have featured their business in Inc. Before and they're doing incredibly well too. I think if not a hundred million in sales, they're approaching it.

[Max Bellinger]

Right.

[Diana Ransom]

The only other thing I thought was interesting is that the frame model seems to have. They've kind of done the same, or Jens has kind of done the same strategy with frame with drops and then sort of like the limited distribution. You know, like they're only in Bergdorf's or they're only in certain department stores. But I think we're right.

[Max Bellinger]

I mean, he's smart. He's obviously a smart guy and didn't.

[Diana Ransom]

Give you much time, though.

[Max Bellinger]

He didn't give me a ton of time, but he's a busy guy. He was in London. He was like the opposite. He was like in London or something. And I was. But, you know, I think that. Yeah, I think the proof is in the pudding. He's done a lot of things, I think frame and obviously he and Emma have probably are chatting about these businesses and I think that they're really smart. They've been able to really build things that are exciting. That. Yeah. That they're constantly in the news. People feel connected to them. They found the right price point, the right category for each person to sort of represent.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. And they found the right family to cozy up to hitch their horses.

[Max Bellinger]

Yeah, I know. It's like, who's hitching whose horse?

[Diana Ransom]

To whom is the question. That's a good point. Totally.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, thank you for being here with us today, Max.

[Max Bellinger]

Thank you so much.

[Diana Ransom]

Thank you.

[Max Bellinger]

It's been a pleasure.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

That's all for this episode of from the Ground Up. If you want to read Max's whole story on. On the future of skims and whether it will IPO, you can find it on inc.com and in these show notes.

[Diana Ransom]

Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your podcast platform of choice. Also, if you liked this episode or have suggestions of what topics you'd like to hear about, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or reach out to us on Inc's social channels, LinkedIn X or Instagram.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

From the Ground up is produced by Julia Hsu and Avery Miles, editing by Blake Odom, mix and sound design by Nicholas Torres. Our Executive producer is Josh Christensen.

[Diana Ransom]

Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

How about we just call it let's Talk about Skims? Let's talk about Skims, baby. I mean people, we have to use that.

[Diana Ransom]

Let's talk about Skims. Get this man a microphone.

[Glenfiddich Ad]

Hi listeners, I'm Blake Odom, producer of from the Ground Up. Today we have a special segment brought to you by Inc. In collaboration with our partners at Glen Fiddick Single Malt Scotch Whiskey this year at the INK 5000 gala, Glen Fiddick presented the inaugural Legacy Award to Stephen Marsh, founder of smarsh. This award recognizes a trailblazer, an individual who has graced the Inc. 5000 list multiple times, embodying the spirit of innovation, boldness, and a relentless drive to defy the ordinary. Much like Glenfiddich, a brand that has pushed the boundaries of excellence throughout its 130 year history to become the world's most awarded single malt Scotch whiskey, Stephen Marsh exemplifies the courage and brilliance it takes to redefine industries and elevate the game. Inc. Editor in Chief Mike Hoffman spoke with Stephen Marsh about his remarkable journey, the legacy he has built, and the honor of being the first recipient of this award presented by Glen Fiddick. Here's that captivating conversation. Enjoy and be inspired.

[Mike Hoffman]

Hi, I'm Mike Hoffman, Editor in Chief of Ink, and I'm delighted to be here today with Steve Marsh, the founder of Smarsh, a multi time Inc. 5000 honoree and the recipient of the inaugural Inc. 5000 Legacy Award presented by Glenn Fiddick. So Steve, thanks so much for joining me.

[Steve Marsh]

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Mike.

[Mike Hoffman]

Oh yeah, this is great. So let me get this straight. You've been on the Inc. 5000 list 17 times so far?

[Steve Marsh]

I think that's correct. I think 17 times.

[Mike Hoffman]

We double checked it. So you've been on the list 17 times. And how many years has the company been in business?

[Steve Marsh]

Since 2001, so about 23, I guess.

[Mike Hoffman]

So you've been on the list more than you've not been on the list in the 23 years of your corporate life.

[Steve Marsh]

I think once we finally made the revenue threshold, we made the list and have been on it since.

[Mike Hoffman]

Well, congratulations. It's amazing to make the Inc 5000. It's amazing to make the Inc 5000 a couple of times and to make it 17 times puts you in really rare error. Only a few companies have made it more than 15 times. So congratulations. Now you started the company in 2001, is that right?

[Steve Marsh]

That's right.

[Mike Hoffman]

And your name is Steve Marsh and the name of the company is Smarsh. Do I have it right that your original email address had something to do with the ultimate name of the company?

[Steve Marsh]

I incorporated to do consulting work, never thinking that the business name would see the light of day. It was just incorporated as Smarsh Inc. Because Marsh was taken by the large insurance company, so we couldn't use that. My friends at the time, my coworkers had all called me Smarsh because that was my email handle. So I said, hey, let's just go with that. The domain name was available and many years later, with a larger marketing department and more resources available to us, more domain names available to us, we still decided to keep the name Smarsh. But that should serve as proof that it never had intention of building this business into anything.

[Mike Hoffman]

So who was your first client?

[Steve Marsh]

My first client was a small brokerage out of Boston, Massachusetts and a friend of mine had worked there and had told me about this need to archive communications for regulatory compliance. And I knew virtually, I mean, I knew absolutely nothing about that. I knew that I needed to make some money to pay rent and that I had some technology skills. So I set out to actually help them implement a solution that I thought I would source from another vendor and quickly found that there weren't other vendors out there doing this, at least to service the small and mid sized companies. The business at that point pivoted from being a consulting business to being the archiving and communications intelligence business that it's become today.

[Mike Hoffman]

When you started on the hockey stick like trajectory of growth, what was the first moment, if you remember, where you kind of knew, oh, this is like not just a consulting business, this is a real business, a technology business and actually it's a fast growth technology business.

[Steve Marsh]

One moment that comes to mind is we had a large competitor in an adjacent space. They weren't archiving the way we were. They did data backup or something and they made an offer to buy the company, really, in our first year of effort in trying to sell the archiving service. And it was hard as a founder to turn down. I think it was like a million dollars. But it was complicated, but we passed on it. And that was a great decision. But that really validated for me that we had built something that was at least perceived to be of value to someone else. And of course, making the Inc. 5000 list for the first time after applying earlier that year and not being able to apply the year prior to that because we didn't meet the. We weren't big enough. We didn't meet the revenue thresholds. Anyway, when we made that list, that was fantastic validation for all the hard work that we had done. It gave us a sense of credibility when we would go out to our customers by being able to put the Inc. 5000 recipient logo on. On our emails and on our website. And that actually helped us grow to the next level.

[Mike Hoffman]

Beyond that, you at some point took growth capital, private equity, is that right?

[Steve Marsh]

We did. It wasn't until 2007. Yeah. First investors were minority investors in 2007, and ironically, the point at which they became interested was a point at which we no longer needed money. And I think many founders probably go through this. When you're trying to raise money, it's a lot harder than when you don't need it. When you don't need it, everybody seems to come out of the woodwork and then they try to convince you why you should take money. I think that was a key moment where we realized we needed to significantly upgrade our technology infrastructure if we wanted to win bigger and bigger customers. We were making incremental changes every year. You know, the rip and replace that you hear technology companies go through, where every six months or so we were taking out old equipment, replacing it with new, bigger and better equipment, and that really just wasn't scalable. It was becoming a distraction to have to keep going through those projects every six months or so. By raising capital, we were able to get off that. That hamster wheel, and we were also able to start making some acquisitions. Became a part of life from that moment forward.

[Mike Hoffman]

What did you learn about business ownership and business leadership going through the process of acquisitions?

[Steve Marsh]

You know, we gained access to people who had operated at the level beyond where we were, which is a pattern, you know, we'll see occur over and over in our business. But there were smarter people who had more experience in a variety of areas, and they presented some of the reasons why we would want to do Some acquisitions, they also educated me and the rest of my team on how to do them. But it taught me that there are a variety of ways to help grow the business. You probably don't want to grow your business just doing acquisitions, although that does create value for a lot of companies. But for us, it was a combination of organic growth through innovation and product development and serving our customers with different products and services and making some of these acquisitions to bring in new technology, to bring in additional competitors, to bring in more expertise than we otherwise would possess. And today that trend continues. We're trying to bring in more AI expertise. For example, we might look to do an acquisition there.

[Mike Hoffman]

Can I ask, where are you guys at revenue now?

[Steve Marsh]

We are about 500 million.

[Mike Hoffman]

And what's the fastest growth part of the company right now?

[Steve Marsh]

There's a lot of focus on leveraging the data that we have stored on behalf of our customers. If you think about the initial use, case for those that don't know, is that we help customers by storing their electronic communication so that they can meet regulatory requirements. You have to have this stuff. You have to be able to produce it. That's kind of the baseline service. But what we've found is that over the years, you start to amass more and more really valuable information on behalf of our customers. So we have years and years worth of emails, text messages, zoom calls, you know, whatever it may be. In a world where artificial intelligence is taking over and people are trying to find ways to harness the value of data, we're sitting on what we think is one of the biggest goldmines out there in terms of data. It's employee communications that were captured initially for a different reason, but now can be turned into sales opportunities, customer service opportunities, new product ideas. You know, I think we're seeing a lot of growth.

[Mike Hoffman]

So an archive can become a large language model.

[Steve Marsh]

Yeah.

[Mike Hoffman]

So this is obviously the Inc. 5000 Legacy Award brought to you by Glenn Fiddick. As you think about the legacy of the company and your legacy as a founder, what do you still hope for? What is your idea of what the legacy you want to leave is?

[Steve Marsh]

We have a very unique culture, I think one that reflects what I wanted to create many, many years ago. I want it to be an organization that hopefully my kids one day look back on and say, wow, dad must have built something pretty interesting here. It's still around. It's still relevant. Our customers still find value in what we're doing. I just want to see it reach its maximum potential. Not every company, even. Not every company that is started or that I'm involved in or that I invest in has the same opportunity to persist through time. Some companies are better as a short term product that maybe gets sold to someone else and they integrate the technology. Some technologies have a shorter lifespan where maybe it's two to three years and then you have to move on. This is a business that I believe truly has the opportunity to exist for many, many years and to be relevant by just listening to customers and adapting and finding or addressing use cases that we found many years ago.

[Mike Hoffman]

Steve Marsh, the founder of Smarsh, a half billion dollar company founded in a Brooklyn apartment that's been on the Inc. 5000 list 17 times. Thanks so much for join us today.

[Steve Marsh]

No, thanks for having me.

[Mike Hoffman]

And before I let you go, we have these glasses of Glenn Fiddick here. You are the inaugural recipient of the Inc. 5000 Legacy Award presented by Glen Fiddick. So let's cheers to your success.

[Steve Marsh]

Cheers.

[Glenfiddich Ad]

Congratulations again to Stephen Marsh. And I couldn't end this episode without getting a little taste of Glen Fiddick myself. And since I got a bottle right here, cheers to you listeners with Glenfiddich, the world's most awarded single malt Scotch whiskey. Drink responsibly. Glen Fiddick single malt Scotch Whiskey is copyrighted 2024 and imported by William Grant & Sons, Inc. New York, NY.