The Best Cookie Story, With Connie McDonald and Pam Weekes of Levain Bakery

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Best Cookie Story" with Connie McDonald and Pam Weekes of Levain Bakery

From the Ground Up is a podcast hosted by Inc. Magazine’s Diana Ransom and Christine Lagorio-Chafkin, focusing on unfiltered conversations with successful founders. In the episode titled "The Best Cookie Story," released on May 5, 2025, Ransom interviews Connie McDonald and Pam Weekes, the co-founders of the iconic Levain Bakery. Celebrating their 30th anniversary, McDonald and Weekes delve into their entrepreneurial journey, the bakery's growth, and the secrets behind their enduring success.

---

1. Introduction to Levain Bakery

The episode begins with Diana Ransom introducing Levain Bakery, clarifying the pronunciation and origin of the name. McDonald and Weekes explain that "Levain" relates to bread-making, specifically the sourdough starter component, which underscores their artisan baking roots.

Pam Weeks [00:27]: “We say Levain.”

Connie McDonald [00:52]: “[Levain] is like the part of the sourdough starter that you supercharge with flour and get ready to bake with.”

---

2. Founders’ Origin Story

McDonald and Weekes share how their friendship, forged through triathlon training, organically led to the creation of Levain Bakery. Initially considering various business ideas, they stumbled upon bread baking, aligning with both their passions and practical needs.

Connie McDonald [06:34]: “We became roommates because financially, we needed to change our situation.”

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [06:30]: “We discovered that we had both had this dream of having our own business.”

---

3. The Breakthrough Moment

A pivotal moment for Levain came in 1997 when Amanda Hesser of Food52 visited their storefront, tasted their cookies, and proclaimed them the "best cookies in New York City." This endorsement catapulted Levain into national fame, leading to a surge in demand.

Diana Ransom [02:46]: “Amanda Hesser... popped into this little, cute little storefront, had this delightful cookie, wrote up a snippet about the best cookie in New York City.”

Connie McDonald [25:13]: “People were calling from all over the country before noon was pretty amazing.”

---

4. Growth and Expansion

Initially growing slowly, Levain expanded organically by opening additional locations to cater to their expanding customer base. By embracing a strategic investment from Stripes in 2018, they accelerated their growth, now boasting 16 locations, including new stores in Hollywood and Venice, California.

Diana Ransom [04:05]: “They have about 16, and they're growing... covering the coast at this point.”

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [16:37]: “We want to make sure that every location feels just like 74th did... a neighborhood bakery.”

---

5. Maintaining Company Culture and Relationships

A cornerstone of Levain’s success is their unwavering commitment to company culture and community. McDonald and Weekes emphasize the importance of fostering strong relationships with customers, vendors, and team members, ensuring every new store integrates seamlessly into its local neighborhood.

Connie McDonald [13:31]: “It's all about the people that we've met and the relationships we have.”

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [15:22]: “We always look for the right foot traffic and the right kind of people.”

---

6. Partnership with Stripes and Organizational Changes

The infusion of capital from Stripes allowed Levain to build a robust management team without compromising their core values. McDonald and Weekes retained significant involvement in product development and strategic decisions, ensuring their original vision remained intact.

Connie McDonald [35:04]: “Stripes had introduced us to our first CEO, Andy, who helped us build out a management team.”

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [36:07]: “Everyone has to spend time in the bakeries, understand how we work.”

---

7. Product Development and Quality

Despite rapid expansion, Levain maintains hands-on involvement in product development. McDonald and Weekes continue to innovate, ensuring their cookies remain a centerpiece while also offering a variety of bread and baked goods.

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [39:57]: “We still do all the product development, just the two of us.”

Connie McDonald [40:15]: “We're still the face of the bakery, which we love.”

---

8. Challenges and Lessons Learned

The founders candidly discuss the relentless work ethic required to sustain Levain. Balancing passion with business demands, they highlight the necessity of perseverance, adaptability, and staying true to their core values.

Connie McDonald [42:19]: “You need to be prepared to work harder than you ever expect and for longer than you probably ever expect.”

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [42:09]: “Start a business to do something you really enjoy... it will probably work out.”

---

9. Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs

McDonald and Weekes offer invaluable advice, emphasizing the importance of passion, building strong relationships, and maintaining authenticity. They caution against prioritizing numbers over people and advocate for organic growth driven by genuine customer enthusiasm.

Connie McDonald [46:29]: “Surround yourself with people that you really care about and don't give up.”

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [46:52]: “Stick with it if you have a great idea and you're having fun.”

---

10. Closing Thoughts and Future Plans

Reflecting on their 30-year journey, McDonald and Weekes express gratitude for their enduring friendship and the loyal community that has supported Levain. They look forward to continued growth while preserving the bakery’s unique spirit and community-focused ethos.

Connie McDonald [45:38]: “I hope it's going to be as careful as it has been up until now.”

Christine Lagorio-Chafkin [46:15]: “We love hearing people say, ‘We want it to be like this for another 30 years.’ That's the best thing.”

---

Key Takeaways

• Trusting Instincts: Balancing data with gut feelings is crucial for maintaining authenticity.
• Community Integration: Each new Levain location is thoughtfully integrated into its local community, preserving the original bakery’s neighborhood charm.
• People-Centric Growth: Prioritizing relationships over mere expansion ensures sustainable success.
• Adaptability: Embracing strategic investments allowed Levain to scale without losing its core values.
• Passion-Driven Entrepreneurship: Loving what you do fuels perseverance and long-term commitment.

---

Levain Bakery’s story, as shared by Connie McDonald and Pam Weekes, exemplifies how passion, strategic growth, and a strong community focus can create a lasting and beloved brand. Their insights serve as a blueprint for entrepreneurs aiming to build enduring businesses without compromising their foundational values.

Transcript

[Diana Ransom]

Qualified Digital is the premier full service.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Customer journey experience agency. To find out how we can help your digital B2B and B2C offerings shine.

[Diana Ransom]

Brighter, contact us at qualifieddigital.com QD powers.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

The fuzzy app which verifies online profiles in seconds. Your digital gut check for safer real life connection.

[Diana Ransom]

Find it in the app store [e-mail].

[Pam Weeks]

Diana Christie. I'm just supposed to say levain or.

[Diana Ransom]

Should I levain or le ven?

[Pam Weeks]

Levain.

[Diana Ransom]

Le ven.

[Pam Weeks]

We say levain. Right. So the French is la ven.

[Diana Ransom]

Okay. So if you're pronouncing it correctly, you're probably right. But I think that the way the people who own this company call it or pronounce it is levent. Okay.

[Pam Weeks]

Do you know what a levant is, what the French word means?

[Diana Ransom]

I think it has something to do with bread making.

[Pam Weeks]

If you have a sourdough starter, it's like the part of the sourdough starter that you supercharge with flour and get ready to bake with.

[Diana Ransom]

So this explains a lot because when I was googling this company, I kept pulling up all these, like, bread baking recipes. I'm like, this is not helpful. But yeah, that's good to know.

[Pam Weeks]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of a neat word if.

[Diana Ransom]

You can pronounce it. This is from the ground up. I'm Diana Ransom.

[Pam Weeks]

And I'm Christine Ligorio Chavkin. Today's episode, the Best Cookie Story.

[Diana Ransom]

So, Christine, I spoke with the co founders of Le Ven Bakery, Pam weeks and Connie McDonald. They are celebrating their 30th anniversary this year.

[Pam Weeks]

Wow.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Wait, wait. Okay.

[Pam Weeks]

So Levain is 30 years old. I feel like I've only heard about this bakery in the past three years.

[Diana Ransom]

Yes, me too. And it's.

[Pam Weeks]

And I live in New York City. I have lived here for two decades.

[Diana Ransom]

And here's the thing. They became like, quote unquote, the best cookie in New York City in 1997.

[Connie McDonald]

Wow.

[Diana Ransom]

Amanda Hesser. You know Amanda Hesser from Food52? Of course, she was working at the New York Times and I think living on the Upper west side, popped into this little, you know, little storefront, little cute little storefront. I don't exactly know the name of the streets, but whatever. She popped in, had this delightful cookie, wrote up a really super short little snippet about the best cookie in New York City. And that effectively put this company on the map like they were. They just became known for their cookies.

[Connie McDonald]

Wow.

[Pam Weeks]

And it was Amanda Hesser. That's Amazing.

[Diana Ransom]

And it was Amanda Hesser.

[Pam Weeks]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

It's just like, the fortuitousness of this moment. So, anyway, 1997. Flash forward to the fact that you and I both did not hear about the quote, unquote, best cookie in New York City. But all of a sudden, they're everywhere.

[Pam Weeks]

Not just everywhere. These cookies are huge.

[Diana Ransom]

They're monstrous.

[Pam Weeks]

I feel like they're so notable because they. A giant chunk of cookie and expensive.

[Diana Ransom]

Right?

[Pam Weeks]

I mean, it's like.

[Diana Ransom]

I mean, I think they're expensive. I think they're probably pretty normal price.

[Pam Weeks]

You think that's normal price?

[Diana Ransom]

Well, you. You don't like cookies that much, but cookies are about that.

[Pam Weeks]

Seriously, how would you.

[Diana Ransom]

You don't have a frame of reference for buying cookies. I wouldn't know. They're not. Not that expensive, especially if you're getting, like, such a monster of a cookie. So. So, yeah, they're really great, but, like you, I hadn't really heard of them until one of my students came in with a big batch of cookies, and I was like, what are these hulking beasts? And then, of course, learned about them. But I think it's a testament to the fact that they've had a really slow organic growth story. You know, they started out with the one loan shop, and then they realized all my customers are flocking away from the city. They're leaving the city in the summertime. They're all going out to the Hamptons or something like that. So they opened up the one more shop, like, five years down the road from their start date. And they just have been growing really slowly since then. And then they had an investor come in. It was a sort of, like, strategic investment.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Sure.

[Diana Ransom]

And then they actually had money to invest in, like, much more of a bigger footprint for them.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah.

[Pam Weeks]

So now, how many shops do they have today?

[Diana Ransom]

I think they have about 16. Oh, cool. And they're, you know, they're growing. Yeah, they just opened up a location in Hollywood, and I think. I think they have a new location in Venice, both in California. So they're covering the coast at this point, but it seems indicative of a growth story still.

[Pam Weeks]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And what did you start by asking them about?

[Diana Ransom]

So Pam and Connie started out our conversation by describing the unusual way they met.

[Connie McDonald]

Pam and I met in, like, 1987, swimming in a swimming pool in Midtown. And we became fast friends and started training and doing triathlons together.

[Diana Ransom]

And what were you doing at the time?

[Connie McDonald]

You name it, I was doing it.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I was working in the fashion industry.

[Diana Ransom]

Okay. With Like Norma Kamali, right?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yes. Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Actually big brands like that.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Not when I first met Connie. Well, between before and after.

[Diana Ransom]

Right. And Connie, you were an investment banker.

[Connie McDonald]

I was doing at that time, right before we started the bakery, I was kind of doing retail sales. Cold calling in an investment bank.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, okay.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, wow. Yeah, it's like boiler room kind of stuff.

[Connie McDonald]

Brutal.

[Diana Ransom]

Wow.

[Connie McDonald]

Really brutal.

[Diana Ransom]

So you met in a swimming pool because you both are triathletes. You are triathletes or you were?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

We weren't when we met though, actually. I mean, I swam for most of my life, I guess, and I love swimming and I eventually got back into a pool, you know, in my mid-20s. And that's where I met Connie. And I think that she's more of an all around athlete, but she always likes swimming, so.

[Diana Ransom]

And you were both training at the time for.

[Connie McDonald]

Soon after we met with. There was a group of guys that we were swimming with in the same lane and they had just started doing triathlons and they were like, you guys really have to try. It's so much fun. And so we did.

[Diana Ransom]

It just sounds so brutal.

[Connie McDonald]

I know, but it's fun.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

It's kind of addicting.

[Diana Ransom]

What made you want to think about starting a business?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

So we were training for Ironman and we were both working full time jobs. So Saturdays, I guess we did long bike rides and that was usually 80 to 125 miles, something like that. And so it gives you a lot of time to think about your life and what you're doing and you're not riding hard that whole time so you have time to chit chat. And that's when we sort of discovered that we had both had this dream of having our own business.

[Diana Ransom]

And did you know it would be a bakery?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

No. And it wasn't even together. We were thinking about ideas for each other. And then it started like, then we were thinking, oh, maybe we should try something together. But you know, we thought about a bike touring company, a women's sports clothing store. Because at that point there, you know, as like for female athletes, there weren't a lot of options.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. And this was around 1987.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

In the meantime, we 90 maybe by.

[Connie McDonald]

Then, yeah, we had become roommates because like, financially it's like we were both. I was living in Brooklyn and my.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Rent was way too much. I was like, I had to change this.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah. So we became roommates and I was really so unhappy with what I was doing. And ironically we were living in an apartment on 92nd between 1st and 2nd. And as you walk west to the subway, or as I did on 92nd street, there was a cooking school on the second floor. And I had been, like, doing some catering and was really loving that. And I would kind of walk by and look up in the windows and thought, wow, that looks just, like, so great. And then make a long story short, I finally got fired from my last job.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

No surprise.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah. I was doing. I deserved it. I needed to be let go. So I enrolled in that school, which was great. And I was there that I thought maybe I'd be a caterer. But it was there that I discovered bread baking.

[Diana Ransom]

And you would bake bread at home? Theoretically. And Pam would enjoy it or would.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, you know, what was really fun about her being in school is that she would. I mean, she'd get home way before I would, and she'd be in the kitchen, like, practicing what she learned that day. So she would probably. I mean, she went to culinary school. So there was everything. Like, I probably ate better that year than.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah, I took it very seriously. Cause I kind of thought, like, this is my chance to do something that I felt really passionate about, which I hadn't had that feeling. So it was, you know, it was really exciting, the bread baking. You know, every student who was in the school had to take turns baking bread for the school for the week. Most people found that they just really didn't like it, and I just loved it.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And so, like, I grew up baking bread and baking, and my mother was an amazing cook and sort of really ahead of herself and that we had no packaged foods and all that sort of thing. So I think I took it a lot more for granted, whereas Connie did not. And she really appreciated.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, it's sort of like mind. Mind opening in a way, for sure. But your mom is also the sort of the inspiration for the eventual cookie, right?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, for one of them, for the dark chocolate peanut butter.

[Diana Ransom]

Okay.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Why 6 ounces? Why did cookies become, like, your, I guess, leading product?

[Connie McDonald]

That's kind of a twofold answer, right?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah. So 6 ounces, I think, like, for us, we started making them for ourselves. And, like, I have to have dessert after every meal, and I love, like, it has to be satisfying, and it can't just be, like, junk dessert.

[Diana Ransom]

So wait, is this just because you're a triathlete or because you enjoy dessert? Okay.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah, enjoy dessert. So at 6 ounces, we discovered that this cookie is really. It's great to share, and we both love to share our food. It's really crunchy. On the outside. It's soft and gooey inside. You know, as it cools, it gets a little bit firmer. It's just very satisfying.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, it's almost. It gets a little scone, like, as it cools, in a way, it's a little cake.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Like, it's a little cake, little cookie. And we both love nuts in our dessert. So the chocolate chip walnut was a natural.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah. And, like, ironically, we didn't weigh it in the beginning. It was just like, we would just kind of, like, make this dough and just kind of, like, portion it out. And I guess when we started doing that at the bakery, it was like.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

The way they sound.

[Diana Ransom]

You have to be kind of precise when it comes to baked goods, Right?

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah. In order to even just, like, price things out and things like that.

[Diana Ransom]

So it's always so interesting what becomes, like, the hero product of a company, or your customers end up kind of telling you what direction you should be going in. Obviously, you're still making bread and you're still making muffins and all that at all the locations. But was it surprising to find that people were really receptive and responsive to the cookies, more so than even the bread that you'd worked so hard on?

[Connie McDonald]

Well, I mean, we were just really thankful that there was a line for anything. You know, it was just like, some people would ask us, like, are you upset that there's a line for the cookies and not the bread? And I'd be like, I'm just. I mean, I'm thankful that there's this enthusiasm about anything that we're making. And then when we thought, oh, well, you know, maybe people aren't really that interested in other things that we're making, and you go to eliminate that, then you find out that there is a real passion, maybe just not at the level that there is for the cookies.

[Diana Ransom]

So did you try that? Did you try to take something away? And then people responded?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah, and people were really unhappy. But it's funny, you know, when we started, we had this vision of this artisan bread bakery, which is what we really were. And we made a lot of different types of breads, and we had ideas for making more. And then we were thinking, oh, maybe someday we'll have wine and cheese and have this little. You know, it was completely different vision than where we are now. You know, we made the cookies, and they really took off, and we were just happy to be in business.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. I mean, and it's also, like, you're still making the thing. It's not like It's a. You know, someone's actually telling you we want hair products.

[Connie McDonald]

Exactly.

[Diana Ransom]

Instead of your. Your baked goods. So it could. Could be worse, I guess.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah, for sure.

[Diana Ransom]

So it's been 30 years since you started. Since you started your first or since you launched your first store. It's incredible. And congratulations. What a milestone.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Thank you.

[Diana Ransom]

How are you feeling at this moment, you know, looking back at your careers?

[Connie McDonald]

We have, because of its 30 year. And we are having some special things with regard to the anniversary and things, you know, so that there has been a lot of reflection.

[Diana Ransom]

And you have a book coming out, too.

[Connie McDonald]

We do, yeah. And with people that we haven't seen in decades participating in this book and telling their stories, it's been.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I think that's really driven at home.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Joking about being emotional before, but that has been a little emotional because, I mean, it's been really amazing to talk to people and hear what they remember.

[Diana Ransom]

What's the focus? Is it more of, like, where they were when they first encountered your cookies, or is it, like, people's different? What's the focus of the book?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

It's a brand book, really, and it talks about the origin of the bakery and how we got from where we started to where we are now. And, you know, a big part of that for us. I mean, Connie and I both feel like, you know, the most important thing that we've done is the people part of it. So, you know, the culture, the brand. And that's like, our customers, our vendors, our team members. And so we've been in touch with a lot of people over the years, but there are a few people we haven't been and so to talk to them again, and it's really nice.

[Connie McDonald]

Well, you can see, like, how psyched they were to come back. Like, you know, they don't live in New York anymore. Like, of course I'll come and get my picture taken and I'll do a story and so fun.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

It's really nice.

[Connie McDonald]

I can't say, you know, it's. It really is. And it may sound kind of corny or whatever, but it completely, for both of us, is all about the people that we've met and the relationships we have. That's the important part to us, and that's what's made it really amazing.

[Diana Ransom]

Well, there's something about, like, working in a. Not necessarily a restaurant or maybe even a restaurant or like, you know, in a bakery. Probably a similar idea is that you're kind of like, you're in it together, you're down in the trenches. You're, like, burning your hand on something and you're upset at some customer, and you're kind of going through all that together. So I can imagine you're forging these really tight bonds with people.

[Connie McDonald]

So. And we had. We just had so much fun.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah. And we have amazing customers. I mean, we have, you know, we opened on 74th street, and we know probably most of the block, and all of the kids who grew up on that block and many of them worked at the bakery at one point or another. And so we have amazing relationships, and we've built friendships with people that we socialize with now.

[Diana Ransom]

That's interesting. So as the company has grown, you started out on 74th and Amsterdam on the Upper west side of Manhattan. And then since then, you've kind of grown. I wouldn't say exponentially, but you've grown quite a bit. So now you're in the middle of launching your 17th location, which is very impressive. How are you approaching store launches now versus, like, what you thought you would be doing back then?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, we're really careful because we want to make sure, ideally, that every location we open feels just like 74th did. You know, we want it to be a neighborhood bakery. We want it to be a part of the community that's really important to us.

[Diana Ransom]

So what do you look for? You look for, like, thriving communities or, you know, you wouldn't necessarily launch in a strip mall kind of thing, Right?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Or hopefully not, right?

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah, yeah. We look for a place where it looks as though, yeah, there would be a community, there's an opportunity to get to know people, that it's not just like, you know, a transit hub where people are just like, frantically running toward. We always say, when people think, oh, this would be great, look at the foot traffic. It's like, that's fine, but it has to be, like, the right foot traffic, you know, and the right kind of people.

[Diana Ransom]

So the idea is you want to be where people live, where they live.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And they work, and it doesn't like both. Connie and I really are big fans of opening in kind of an up and coming area, not necessarily a really developed area when possible. You know, when we opened on 74th, that wasn't the nicest neighborhood, perhaps. I mean, it's changed drastically. It's fun to be able to open and grow with a neighborhood, I guess, is my point.

[Connie McDonald]

And I think we also really want to make sure that as best we can, that the bakery and the brand stays as special as it possibly can be. And, you know, we never Want to hear people or overhear people saying, you know, oh, another one, you know, or, you know, that kind of thing.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I remember when.

[Connie McDonald]

Remember when it used to be so good.

[Diana Ransom]

So what's the limit? I mean, actually, you have 17 stores now, and then you're launching two more. One in Beverly Hills, one in Chicago, right?

[Connie McDonald]

Yes, in Lincoln Park.

[Diana Ransom]

Lincoln Park. So when do you think it's too much? When are we saturated with Levens?

[Connie McDonald]

That's a really.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

That's a question that we talk about a lot. Yeah. I mean, it's a big country. It's a big world. I think there's a lot of opportunity, but I think we really want to be selective, and we're not in any hurry, obviously.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, that's great. So we were talking about. You were talking about store launches and kind of what goes into finding a new location and, like, how much you factor into each. Each shop. What was it like to go from one store to the second store? Was it a dramatic change? Did you feel like you were being pulled in two different directions and it was hard, or how did you make that work? Like, how do you. How do you clone You.

[Connie McDonald]

That's.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

That's.

[Connie McDonald]

That's. Yeah.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah. The first two stores weren't too hard because there are two of us, so it wasn't. You know, it had these moments, but it was, you know, we could divide and conquer, which is pretty much what we did for a long time. You know, now it gets a little trickier because we can't be everywhere, but now we're in the lucky place to have a big team, and so that makes a huge difference.

[Diana Ransom]

So this goes back to the idea of building a culture that kind of will stand on its own.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Right.

[Connie McDonald]

Well, it's interesting because it's really interesting. This is part of the book, too, that I think is also a really interesting thing, because a lot of people ask us for advice in how we did this and how we're still doing this. So we had a private equity investment in 2018 from a company called Stripes. Exactly. And before that, we had a lot of people who were very interested because they'd see the lines and they were just intrigued by the business and would contact us and either want to franchise, invest, buy, whatever. And we met several people, and they were all great people. But when push came to shove, by the end of the day, it just.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Wasn'T the right fit. Like, we didn't have the same vision.

[Connie McDonald]

Right. And we thought, thank you very much, but, you know, we're just gonna kind of keep Going. And we met Stripes, and they reached out to us, and we finally met them. And we had this feeling, which is great. Cause Pam and I always.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

We're big on our gut feelings.

[Connie McDonald]

We always have the same gut feeling, which is such a blessing. It's incredible. And, you know, we met them and we knew, because we love our team so much and we love the bakery so much that we knew we had to make the right decision for everybody's future. And when we met Stripes, we knew that that was. We knew that that would happen with them. And what's really great. And we say this all the time. Seven years later, we're still. We still say the same thing, which is kind of a miracle.

[Diana Ransom]

That is. Absolutely. And then, so what. I was going back and reading some of the coverage on your. I guess, these encounters with past suitors for your company. I believe one of you said that they didn't even ask to visit a store.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

A couple did, but most didn't. Like, especially. Yeah. I mean, it was. Yeah. They just wanted to see the numbers, and they had no interest in what was going on. It's like, you don't even understand this business. I mean.

[Diana Ransom]

Right.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Because numbers are really important. This is another thing we talk about all the time. Numbers are so important. You have to know them, but you can't. You can't focus on them. You have to focus on the people, your team, the customers, the vendors and your product. And if you take care of that, your numbers will be fine.

[Connie McDonald]

That's our kind of recipe for success. A lot of places don't do that. And we've hired people to come in and be managers, and they've come in through no fault of their own, just because that's just the way they are.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

That's what they know.

[Connie McDonald]

Exactly. And just putting way too much emphasis on numbers. And it just kind of ruins the whole culture.

[Diana Ransom]

Right. Doesn't work out.

[Connie McDonald]

Doesn't work out.

[Diana Ransom]

Probably long term with that.

[Connie McDonald]

Even short term.

[Diana Ransom]

That's good. Well, so you talk about kind of caring for your people.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Right.

[Diana Ransom]

So what do you do? How do you do that?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

No, I was gonna say. So right from almost the beginning, we've had health insurance for everybody. We started profit sharing plan as soon as we could. We've always paid people more than the going market rate as much as we could right from the beginning. I mean, I think there are a lot of different ways that we've done it.

[Connie McDonald]

I also think just like, on a human level, like, we get to know everyone, like, take an interest, and it's because genuinely, we want to know. I want to know you, and I want to know your kids, and I want to know if you're okay. And I want to, you know. And it's just like, really, like, real relationships. Yeah, exactly.

[Diana Ransom]

Can you still do that as the company grows?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

That's a lot harder.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah. But so I was going to say, you know, when it was just Connie and I, we basically opened four locations, and so it was like, one every five years. And I think that something that was really frustrating for the people who worked with us was that they didn't see an opportunity to grow as fast as they wanted to grow. So by taking on an investment, we were able to grow faster and give people, you know, a clear vision to where they could grow, which has been really nice.

[Diana Ransom]

I was going to ask you what prompted the decision. Obviously, you met Stripes and you found that you thought they were a good fit, but, you know, what was happening in your lives that made it seem like this is the right time to do this?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, we had just come out of another crazy holiday season, so at that point, we were doing a huge percentage of our total business for the year in the few weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas. So it was always really hard. And, you know, we were growing, and we just thought, like, this is the right time. We. We really, like, need some help. And we were so busy all the time, and we didn't. You know, we kept thinking we wanted to hire some kind of management team, put together a little more structure, but we just weren't doing it.

[Connie McDonald]

So, yeah, it was interesting because we actually contacted a person that we swam with who she's so incredible. And she actually. I guess she's a coach. I don't know what the right word is.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

She's done a lot of management consulting, management coaching.

[Connie McDonald]

You know, we contacted her and just saying, like, what do we do here? How do we grow this? How do we build this management structure so that we can grow and we can give people who've been with us for a long time, like, this opportunity. So she came in.

[Diana Ransom]

At what point did she come in?

[Connie McDonald]

Like, 2016. And, you know, at that point, we had about, I think, like, maybe 50 employees. And she wanted to get to know, like, the business, every, like, nook and cranny of it. And she. This was like, another emotional thing. Like, she spent so much time interviewing, like, every employee about us.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, about everything, but about us.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah, we were everything. So it was just kind of like. And, you know, and she came back with the feedback, the Good, the bad, and the ugly, you know, like.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And I think it was mostly.

[Connie McDonald]

Oh, it was. But, you know, nothing's perfect.

[Diana Ransom]

It's hard to hear negatives.

[Connie McDonald]

It is. But it's also really. It's also a really great way to grow. And so she also really helped us realize that we had to do something to.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

To change.

[Connie McDonald]

To change this. And so that she kind of set us up for being really open to the possibility of that.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, and a really interesting thing is that she said she was so inspired by what we had done and were doing that she went on to start her own company.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, wow. I love that.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

She's really nice.

[Diana Ransom]

That's gratifying, for sure.

[Connie McDonald]

It is.

[Diana Ransom]

I mean, I'm sure you've inspired a bunch. I mean, this is. I don't actually know if this is true, but one of the most popular, from what I understand, from what I've heard the lore is one of the most popular Four Dummies books is how to Start a Bar. I think that how to Start a Bakery is probably also one of these really popular businesses. It's like something magical about it. You know, you're making these delightful things, and people end up, in your case, lining up for them.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Smells good. It makes you feel good.

[Diana Ransom]

Right?

[Connie McDonald]

And I think everyone. So many people, like, love to bake, and so they think, oh, you know, I love to bake, so I'll start a bakery.

[Diana Ransom]

But there's much more to it. You all could have just had a little bakery and that have been fine, but you were systematic about growing it in a slow way. Right. And you lucked out a few times over the years. So There was a 1997 review by Amanda Hester, by the way, which is kind of wild, that it was her amazing food 52. So she wrote that, you know, this is a, quote, the largest, most divine chocolate chip cookies in Manhattan. And that's in the New York Times.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah, yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

So what happened, like, initially, right after.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

That review came out, the phone started ringing. Yeah, well, that was also. Yeah, well, people were calling from all over the country. And it's like, you know, that, you know, everybody at that time got the morning paper and read it, but to be getting calls from all over the country, you know, before noon was pretty amazing.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, absolutely. But that was like pre Internet or. Right. Or early stages of the Internet.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Early stages, yeah. Yeah. So the first thing. Yes, just beginning.

[Diana Ransom]

It was there.

[Connie McDonald]

Leave it to me not to know it. That's a little something you'll find out about me.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

So the first thing I was like, okay, how are we gonna get all these people the cookies they want to try?

[Connie McDonald]

Well, the first thing was, like, because we knew it was going to happen because she had called the night before to kind of fact check. And so she had told us it was going to. And so I said that morning, I was like, I'm going to the newsstand. And Pam's like, just read it before, because if it's not good, don't buy it.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Don't buy it because I have no extra money. Don't waste the money.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, right, right.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

You have to be thrifty.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah. And so I read it and I was like, oh, my God. So, yeah, it was.

[Diana Ransom]

Thank God. It was a glowing room.

[Connie McDonald]

It was amazing.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

It was amazing. Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Did she live in the neighborh? Was she just part of the community and just like half an apana. So the phone starts ringing off the hook. Were people then lining up?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

No, not yet. I mean, people were coming in, but it wasn't like it was years before we had lines.

[Diana Ransom]

Did you ever feel like it was going off the rails? Like, wait a minute, this isn't what I signed up for. I just wanted a cute little bakery. And no, I don't think we had.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Time to even think that. Yeah, I mean, we were just having fun. I mean, it was great. I think we both liked challenges, and it was great to keep growing and getting these challenges and learning. You know, we had friends in business school at the same time we were starting the bakery. So we'd always, like, compare notes and they'd be talking about things, you know, in theory. And we were doing it.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

So we made some mistakes, but.

[Diana Ransom]

So after this review came out, and it was a glorious review about the chocolate chip walnut cookies in the New York Times, you all started up a proto E commerce site and mail orders started coming in. The phone was ringing, people were calling in to get orders. And I believe I saw a stat that said something to the effect that the business, the mail order business was growing by, or grew by 1,600% over the next decade. Incredible stuff.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Incredible. Yeah, yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

What actually was going. What was happening behind the scenes at that point?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, behind the. We were figuring out how to do it sort of on the fly. We had done a drop ship item for Williams Sonoma, actually. Oh, great. So we had a little bit of an idea of how to do it, but as we grew, we kind of figured it out. And I think in that time period, we'd done some Food Network things, and so people were Getting to know who we were and we were getting more exposure and there was more interest.

[Diana Ransom]

So your phone's ringing more and more and more.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

The Internet, actually.

[Connie McDonald]

But initially, literally the phone would ring, we would answer it and then we would take these orders over the phone, complete with exactly what they wanted, what the gift card message was.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, great.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

You know, we had a great toll free number. 8, 7, 7, 4 Leven. I was so happy that we got a number that made sense.

[Diana Ransom]

Do you still have it? We do. So, Christine, let's chat for a minute about Proto Internet days. Do you remember dial up and.

[Pam Weeks]

Oh my gosh, of course.

[Diana Ransom]

Like aol. Yeah, yeah.

[Pam Weeks]

I can't even. But it's been, it's been a long time.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah.

[Pam Weeks]

But it's like amazing that they were taking orders manually over the phone with that, that great toll free number.

[Connie McDonald]

Right.

[Diana Ransom]

I know. They lucked out with such a, such a brilliant number. But it's cool too because they kind of, they were early to the capitalizing on the fact that people wanted the convenience of being able to order something. Yeah. And it's funny too because in our conversation they didn't even call it E commerce. They were like, they kind of, they demurred at that description. Like, wait a minute, it wasn't E commerce. Oh wait, it was E commerce. They were really early to it.

[Pam Weeks]

They were so early. It's been like a foundation of their business.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, right. And that set off the growth story for them in a big way. And I'm certainly looking forward to reading all about it in their new book that they have coming out. It's like a company book, but I think it's like mixed in with some fun recipe style stuff.

[Pam Weeks]

So kind of like a kitchen book or like.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, but it's more of like the business and growth story. And I think mixed in are the potential recipes. And if I'm wrong, sorry, ladies, but send me the book and I'll check it out.

[Pam Weeks]

Great. Well, yeah, I loved the conversation so far. What do you guys talk about next?

[Diana Ransom]

So when we come back, Pam and Connie tell me about how they reacted to the national interest in their bakery and how they've managed to maintain such a good working relationship and importantly, their friendship. I also ask him about the future after a quick break, after talking with you all about your history of being triathletes and then, you know, enjoying a challenge. Does this at all seem like you all were predisposed to running a quickly growing company?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, I think we have that kind of personnel.

[Connie McDonald]

We've often Said that. I honestly, I'm not trying to pat ourselves on the back or anything, but, you know, looking back on what we did, I don't know a lot of people that would have done what we did. Because it's honest to goodness, we were working and it wasn't. It didn't feel like a big deal, but we worked, you know, at least 12 or 14 hours a day, seven days a week for probably around, I don't know, 18 years.

[Diana Ransom]

Wow.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Did you take vacations?

[Connie McDonald]

No. That's.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I'm saying, yeah, like, literally worked, but.

[Connie McDonald]

We were having fun, but it was just kind of.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And it was just. I mean, not what we did.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, well, you also. Okay, you worked together. You were roommates at one point and you're friends. Were there any trying moments in your friendship? And, you know, did that ever feel like it was on the edge? It might be a funny question to be asked now, but.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

But I think one thing, especially now, people don't understand is because now with what we're doing, we're pretty much always, like, working on things together and spending a lot of time together. We didn't spend any time together really, after we started opening, you know, the second location.

[Connie McDonald]

So, you know, I think that's a bit of an. I mean.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, not none, but, you know, we were. We're always in different places. And so I think that helped a lot. I mean, you would have to agree.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah. But I mean, I prefer to think of it like, I just feel really blessed to have such a great friend and someone that I honestly gonna. Like we never had. I mean, I'm not saying we never disagreed on anything, but not very often.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Not the important things.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah. And I can certainly say that there was never, like an overnight. I've never had a situation where it's like, I'm not talking to you or, you know, it's like. It's just. That's just never happened.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah.

[Connie McDonald]

So I feel really lucky to.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, I think neither one of us are really, like, not big screamers or fighters. It's like. It's like we can disagree and then discuss it and work it out.

[Diana Ransom]

So when you do have a disagreement, how do you come to terms? Do you have to, like, pull out the slideshow and, like.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

It depends on what we're just disagreeing on. You know, I'm a lot more stubborn than Kyle.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna let an argument go on, so. Yeah, I don't see any point of that.

[Diana Ransom]

Come to a resolution.

[Connie McDonald]

Come to a resolution. Let's not. This is. Yeah. Because usually it's never been anything, so.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

It'S never been the big things. The big things that really matter, like, we pretty much are always in agreement on. And that's kind of funny because even if we're like, in a group of people, we're discussing something and it's being debated, we'll look at each other and realize that, like, we agree. So, you know. Yeah, it's nice.

[Diana Ransom]

It's funny. I feel like some people just are irascible in some way. Like, people just take the devil's advocate approach, even for no particular reason. It's just because they can see the other side.

[Connie McDonald]

Right.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

It's just not helpful.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

We have friends like that.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah, me too. I know.

[Diana Ransom]

So after all these years, I mean, you've stayed friends, which is actually very, very impressive for business owners, too, because it's like, not only are you friends friends, but you're spending a lot of time together, and you're making these really clutch decisions together, and it can be tough. So congratulations on that.

[Connie McDonald]

Thank you.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Thank you. I was also gonna say it's kind of nice, though, because you have someone to back you up, People who start businesses on their own. Like, I always feel like, oh, God. Like, who do they talk to? You have to have somebody to be able to talk to. So that's, like, a really plus side to.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. And then, you know, some people who, I guess if it's like, a couple and then they come home and they have rules like, okay, we can't talk about the business. We need to be humans and to be a couple, too, sometimes. It's always interesting to hear how people make it work.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

So back to raising money, obviously, Stripes entering the picture was novel for you because you hadn't raised any outside or any institutional funding at that point. So what actually changed once you did welcome them in?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, nothing for the first medium, it was so fun. You know, 24 hours later, we were like, hmm, what's gonna change? Yeah, you know, it was nothing instantaneous. It was a very slow.

[Connie McDonald]

Well, we were still running the business.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Connie McDonald]

But Stripes had introduced us to our CEO that we. Our first CEO that.

[Diana Ransom]

Did you feel pressured to bring somebody in, like a CEO?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

No. They asked us if either one of us or both of us wanted to do it, and we said no. And they had been introducing us to all the people that we hadn't been able to sort of take the time to meet on our own. So it was really great to talk to all these people. So we had met our first CEO, Andy, before we even had the transaction. And we really.

[Diana Ransom]

Before you knew he'd be the CEO.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Right.

[Connie McDonald]

But like, you know, so let's say I think our transaction was in like February, and I don't think Andy was in another situation, so he couldn't start until like April or May. Initially, nothing really changed, but then everything changed.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, it really enabled us to start building out a management team, which we needed, a leadership team.

[Diana Ransom]

What goes into hiring for the C suite, in your view? Do they spend time in the kitchen? Do you make them make cookies?

[Connie McDonald]

A little bit.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, we like everyone to do that.

[Connie McDonald]

Everyone goes through an initial onboarding and yeah, they have to. Right. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to lead the company the way that we think they should in the way that trying to fill at least the shoes that we had.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

The management team, the C suite, they're all there to support the bakeries. And so it's hard. If they don't spend enough time in the bakeries or get to know how we work in the bakeries, they're not gonna be able to do that.

[Diana Ransom]

Right, right. So there's a period of time where they all have to kind of get, you know, roll up their sleeves and actually make products. And then do they go travel around all the stores and sort of like, what's part of the process?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Some of them do, and it sort of depends on the timing, like when they start and what they need to do. But eventually, like, everybody does get to all of the stores and many people come to all of the openings depending on what else they're working on. So it's really nice.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah, it's an incredible group of people.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I mean, it's kept us really engaged because it's so amazing to be able to work with these people and, you know, learn from them. That's really nice.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah. I mean, we were not, I think when we. At the time of the transaction, if you had told us that we seven years later would still be this involved with the bakery and the company, we, you know, we'd say, like, I just.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I don't think so.

[Connie McDonald]

I don't think so.

[Diana Ransom]

But, you know, do you feel very involved?

[Connie McDonald]

Oh, yes.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah.

[Connie McDonald]

Okay.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

You're still making day to day decisions we're involved in.

[Connie McDonald]

Okay, okay.

[Diana Ransom]

You're consulted on the decisions and you're in part.

[Connie McDonald]

You're part of the process or we're not consulted. And I put my input in anyway, whether it's wanted or not. But it's, you know, it's great.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

You spend a lot of time with people.

[Diana Ransom]

You still go to the store openings, Right? Like, actually, this is intriguing. You know, I initially saw that you were launching in Beverly Hills, and I don't get like a Le Ven vibe from Beverly Hills personally, but obviously I am not you all, so.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, that's a nice one. We first started talking about.

[Connie McDonald]

But it's ironic, you know, I actually used to work around the corner 40 years ago. I lived in LA for like two years and I worked around the corner on El Camino. And our store is on South Beverly, just south of Wilshire. And it's a completely different vibe than the north side of Wilshire. And so I was the same way. I was like, I don't know about Beverly Hills, but it's very neighborhoody. It's great.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Okay.

[Connie McDonald]

It is exciting.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. You're like, I don't know about that area.

[Connie McDonald]

I know hear you. But believe me, it's gonna be.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, I'm kidding. I'm totally kidding. Beverly Hills is lovely, but it's also like, it seems a little bit different than Upper west side.

[Connie McDonald]

I know, but this. But this.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

But there are neighborhoods everywhere.

[Diana Ransom]

Yes.

[Connie McDonald]

Oh, no, totally.

[Diana Ransom]

In fact, my first brush with levain was, which I had been. I've been pronouncing it wrong for a couple of years, by the way. Levain, not le ve. I've been saying levaine.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

It doesn't matter, it's okay.

[Diana Ransom]

But anyway, one of my students, I teach a class on feature writing, and it's usually an evening class. And one of my students brought in a couple of your cookies. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, what are these monstrous, yummy looking cookies? And one of them offered me some, and I was like, oh, no, no, thank you. But as soon as they mentioned it, they were talking about it as though there was this. Of course, obviously it's Le ven. It was like being told about something that was so obvious that I'd never heard before, but it was like, shocking that it was. I had never heard of it before. And then I come to realize that you all are like a New York institution been around for 30 years. I'm like, oh, my God, I cannot believe I'd never heard of these cookies. Anyway, first time I could get the opportunity, I went to your Broadway location and I went in and got some cookies. So anyway, lots of long story just to. For me to tell you my interaction with your brand, like, people are still finding you.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I love that. I love that. Yeah. And one thing we should also say is that we still do all the product development, just the two of us. So that's probably the place that we're most intricately involved.

[Connie McDonald]

And we're still, like, the face of the bakery, which we love, of course. So it's great.

[Diana Ransom]

So you can kind of go back to doing fun stuff in a way. Yeah, for sure.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Ideally.

[Diana Ransom]

And that is interesting. I was kind of wondering, what are your roles now? So it's more of, like, product development.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

That's probably. Well, product development and maybe, like, things like this are probably the most important things we do. But we still go on real estate trips and have conversations about that.

[Diana Ransom]

Any more triathlons?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

No, there's not time.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. Oh, really? Because there's no time. That's amazing. But I love this story about when you were doing these things and you required just more calories, and it was like, oh, my God.

[Connie McDonald]

Oh, those were nice.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

It was so much fun. You could eat whatever you wanted in that way.

[Diana Ransom]

Yes. I love that idea. I want to run a massive race just so I can eat one of your three of your cookies at one time. Is there anything you wish you would have done differently? You know, sort of now that we're kind of being reflective 30 years out, you know, anything that kind of, like, sticks in your crawl about, like, how you started up and, like, what. Anything you would have done differently?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I don't think so. You know, it's like. Because everything that we did kind of served a purpose, even if it was just to teach us that we needed to do something else. Right.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah. And, you know, my road to the bakery was a very winding one. And I'm so. Yeah, no, since the bakery. No, before, you know, and I learned so many. Cause I, like, made so many kind of, like. I don't know if you call them mistakes before, just like, kind of like growing pains or whatever they were that.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, you're just trying to find your way.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, well, you had that perspective before you started.

[Connie McDonald]

Well, yeah. It certainly gives you a great amount of empathy for people who are, like, trying to, like, figure out. Yeah, exactly.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. And then we were talking about, like, people who want to start a bakery. What would you tell them? Like, what's the stuff nobody tells you?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I think the biggest thing is that, like, you need to be prepared to work harder than you ever expect and for longer than you probably ever expect. You'll have to work that hard.

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah. And it's like, you know, we loved it, too. You have to really love it, because it's like, you May not make, like, a lot of money or anything, you know, as long as you. But as long as you're doing what you love, it's just great.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And so, yeah, we didn't start the bakery to make a lot of money. I mean, and I don't think you should start a business to make a lot of money. You should start a business to do something you really enjoy doing, you really love, you really want to do. And it will probably work out.

[Connie McDonald]

Like, we didn't have a business plan saying, you know, we're going to have, like, these four stores, not for a realization. Then we're going to have this invest. You know, it's just like, it just kind of grew out, like, organically and kind of out of necessity. And so, I mean, I wouldn't change a thing.

[Diana Ransom]

How do you avoid, I guess, falling into this? It's sort of a common situation where business owners, they work. Like, you start the business because you enjoy. You're passionate about, like, making cookies or bread, and then you end up just spending all your time, you know, doing marketing or, you know, sales calls versus actually making the thing. How do you prevent that from happening? Like, how do you book in time to do the things that you love?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, I think what I liked about starting it is that you had to do everything. So there were certainly things that maybe you preferred. But for me, I like doing a lot of different things. Like, I don't like to do the same thing every single day.

[Diana Ransom]

Right. Okay. So it gave you that flexibility to do that.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah, to do a lot of different things.

[Diana Ransom]

And how about you, Connie?

[Connie McDonald]

I also think. And I'm sure it would probably be so different now, but when we started, things were, like, so simple then that there wasn't.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. This is like pre social media.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yes.

[Connie McDonald]

This is pre cell phones, pretty much. And so it was like, you know, we didn't have to do any marketing. You just opened the door. That was opening day.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

We just opened the door.

[Connie McDonald]

You know, everything grew organically. Yeah, it's exactly right. And we didn't do anything marketing. We didn't do any sales calls or it just kind of.

[Diana Ransom]

If you were starting up the business now, how different would it be?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Would it be totally different? I think. I think it would be really hard to do it the way we did it because it's just a different world. I mean, it's so funny because I feel like 30 years has gone by in a flash. How did we get here? But then when you start thinking about all the different things that have happened and all the different things that you've done. It's like, wow, it has been 30 years.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Connie McDonald]

And how the world has changed. And it's like, it's crazy.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, it's really funny because we're getting so many requests from our marketing team. Don't you have any pictures? It's like, well, we weren't running around. We didn't have cell phones.

[Connie McDonald]

We don't have cell phones.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

You think we're at the bakery, working, working. Like, oh, let's stop and take a picture. It just didn't happen. It was, like, so different.

[Connie McDonald]

It was just so different.

[Diana Ransom]

You'd probably be, you know, Instagram influencers or some kind of influencer.

[Connie McDonald]

Exactly.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I think it would be really fun to start a business out, but it would be different from the way we started.

[Diana Ransom]

Would you ever do it again? Like, another bakery? Like, could you do that? You could.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Another bakery?

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. I mean, have you thought about another business?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I have, but I think at this point, by the time I'm done with this, I'm gonna wanna just, like, do some other things.

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah. Well, that's. That's interesting. Do you have any. Any thoughts on, like, what's next for Levent?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I hope, just.

[Connie McDonald]

I just hope it's just like, I know that there's gonna be growth because it's like, you know, we have, you know, the investment and things and that' but I just hope it's like that it's going to be as careful as it has been up until now, because it's like, we're still really proud and really excited of everything we're opening.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And I think that everybody at the bakery, not just us, I think that everybody really appreciates, like, the community that we have and the culture that we have. And I think, you know, I love hearing people say, oh, we want it to be like this for another 30 years. That's like the best thing you could.

[Diana Ransom]

Ever hope for, I guess. As we sort of close, any parting advice for fellow entrepreneurs who are, you know, maybe not bakery owners, but, you know, other. Other people who want to kind of who are emerging and who want some advice, you know?

[Connie McDonald]

Yeah, I mean, we say it all the time. It's like every business, it may be a bakery business. It's not the same as, you know, another type, but you pretty much encounter the same problems. And I think, like, you know, loving what you do and surrounding yourself with people that you really care about and. And not worrying that you not the smartest person in the room and don't give up.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Because I think that people have. So I think there are a lot of good ideas out there and I think people start amazing businesses, but they get frustrated that it doesn't become overnight successful. That's not realistic. If you have this great idea and you're having fun, stick with it.

[Diana Ransom]

Awesome. Well, thank you both so much for your time today.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Thank you so much for having us.

[Connie McDonald]

It's been so much fun.

[Diana Ransom]

Over the past three decades, Pam and Connie have built their bakery by trusting their instincts, something that's easy to lose sight of in a fast paced world of trends and quick growth. What stood out in this conversation is how much they value the intangible, how they feel. Yes, your numbers matter, but so does your gut. As a founder, you know the vision and intention of what you're building. Honoring that is just as important as any data point point. As they continue adding locations across the country, I especially loved hearing about how they're working to replicate the spirit of their original Manhattan neighborhood bakery in local communities that they enter. And the main takeaway here is just like what Connie referenced. Stick to what makes your brand special.

[Pam Weeks]

That's all for this episode of from the Ground Up.

[Diana Ransom]

Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your podcast platform of choice. Also, if you like this episode or have suggestions of topics you'd like to hear about, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or reach out to us on all of the Ink's social channels.

[Pam Weeks]

From the Ground up is produced by Blake Odom and Avery Miles with Diana Ransom and myself, with help from Sam Gabauer and Hawa Ohtori. Editing by Matt Todder, mix and sound design by Nicolas Nicholas Torres. Our Executive producer is Josh Christensen. Thanks for listening and we will see you next week.

[Diana Ransom]

Panoply.