The Billion-Dollar Whiskey Story

Summary

Podcast Summary: From the Ground Up – The Billion-Dollar Whiskey Story

Episode Details:

• Title: The Billion-Dollar Whiskey Story
• Hosts: Diana Ransom (Executive Editor) & Christine Ligorio-Chafkin (Editor-at-Large)
• Guest: Fawn Weaver, Founder, CEO, and Chief Historian of Uncle Nearest
• Release Date: November 11, 2024

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1. Celebrating a Milestone: Uncle Nearest’s $1.1 Billion Valuation

The episode opens with Diana Ransom and Christine Ligorio-Chafkin introducing their guest, Fawn Weaver, the visionary behind Uncle Nearest Whiskey. Fawn shares the exciting news that Uncle Nearest has reached a valuation of $1.1 billion, positioning her among the elite group of African American women entrepreneurs who have built billion-dollar companies.

Notable Quote:

“Our goal is $40 billion. So $1 billion to us is like, all right, we’ve got a long way to go.” (03:58) – Fawn Weaver

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2. The Dual Role: Founder and Chief Historian

Fawn Weaver uniquely holds the position of Chief Historian at Uncle Nearest. She delves into the rich history of Nearest Green and the broader American whiskey distilling process, emphasizing the brand's connection to legends like Jack Daniel's. Her role ensures that the company's legacy is meticulously researched and authentically integrated into the brand narrative.

Notable Quote:

“There’s nothing surface about it. I really felt like I was in the story.” (11:07) – Fawn Weaver

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3. Building a Legacy Through Storytelling

Central to Uncle Nearest’s success is Fawn’s commitment to storytelling. She emphasizes the importance of a flawless narrative grounded in factual history, distinguishing Uncle Nearest from other whiskey brands that often embellish their backstories.

Notable Quote:

“We set out to create a brand that appealed to every demographic, every corner of America, and we’ve succeeded in that.” (06:09) – Fawn Weaver

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4. Strategic Growth Without Compromising Integrity

Fawn outlines Uncle Nearest’s growth strategy, which prioritizes long-term infrastructure over short-term gains. She discusses significant investments, such as acquiring vineyards in Cognac and the Martel estate, to ensure quality and authenticity in their products.

Notable Quote:

“If you are in this to just sort of flip the company or build it very quickly and sell it to someone else, you don’t make decisions like that.” (19:03) – Fawn Weaver

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5. Navigating Financial Partnerships: The Right Money Matters

A pivotal aspect of Uncle Nearest’s growth has been Fawn’s deliberate choice to partner with individual investors rather than traditional venture capital or private equity firms. She shares her insights on avoiding the pitfalls that often lead to founders losing control and the company’s original mission.

Notable Quote:

“You have to have the right financial partners. Those who aren’t going to just look at me on a spreadsheet, but those are going to look at this and say, hey, we are going to help you build this.” (24:20) – Fawn Weaver

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6. Fostering a Healthy Company Culture

Despite rapid growth, Uncle Nearest maintains a lean team of just over 100 employees, focusing on avoiding burnout. Fawn implements policies like mandatory time off during significant periods (e.g., every second week of July and Christmas holidays) to ensure employees can recharge.

Notable Quote:

“We all work incredibly, incredibly hard. But I’m also very conscientious to avoid burnout and to make sure that our teams are taking the time for themselves.” (32:28) – Fawn Weaver

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7. Preserving the Company’s Soul Amid Expansion

Fawn emphasizes that Uncle Nearest’s core mission—to cement the legacy of Nearest Green—remains at the forefront, regardless of the company’s expansion. This commitment ensures that the brand’s essence is never diluted, maintaining authenticity and integrity.

Notable Quote:

“No one in this company is losing sight of why we are here and what we are doing.” (31:20) – Fawn Weaver

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8. Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs

Fawn shares invaluable advice for entrepreneurs, stressing the importance of adequate rest and maintaining one’s health to foster creativity and effective problem-solving. She highlights the cultural misconceptions around sleep and productivity, advocating for intentional rest as a cornerstone of sustainable success.

Notable Quote:

“Every entrepreneur out there, that’s always my number one question. How rested are you?” (35:19) – Fawn Weaver

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Conclusion: A Trailblazing Journey

The episode concludes with the hosts celebrating Fawn Weaver’s remarkable achievements and her strategic approach to building Uncle Nearest. Christine highlights Fawn's emphasis on storytelling and legacy, while Diana underscores the importance of maintaining company culture and integrity during rapid growth.

Closing Remarks:

“She knew that she had to be a trailblazer for Uncle Nearest to succeed. Now she has cemented her place in history as just one of a few black women entrepreneurs to ever reach a greater than $1 billion valuation. Cheers to that.” (43:35) – Christine Ligorio-Chavkin

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Key Takeaways:

• Legacy and Storytelling: Authentic narratives grounded in history can differentiate and elevate a brand.
• Strategic Growth: Prioritizing long-term infrastructure and avoiding traditional VC pitfalls fosters sustainable growth.
• Company Culture: Maintaining a healthy work-life balance and preventing burnout are crucial for a lean, effective team.
• Entrepreneurial Advice: Rest and personal well-being are essential for creativity and problem-solving.

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Notable Quotes Recap:

1. Fawn Weaver on long-term goals – [03:58]
2. Embracing the historian role – [11:07]
3. Creating an inclusive brand – [06:09]
4. Strategic decision-making – [19:03]
5. Choosing the right financial partners – [24:20]
6. Preventing burnout – [32:28]
7. Maintaining company mission – [31:20]
8. Importance of rest – [35:19]

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Final Thoughts: Fawn Weaver’s journey with Uncle Nearest exemplifies the power of combining audacious vision with strategic execution. Her dedication to preserving history, fostering an inclusive brand, and maintaining a healthy company culture serves as an inspiring blueprint for entrepreneurs aiming to build enduring and impactful businesses.

Transcript

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[Diana Ransom]

Christine Diana.

[Interview Host]

What is your favorite cocktail?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Ooh, a cocktail that's hard. I love a really nice glass of wine. I love a Bloody Mary kind of seasonally. Yeah, I like a gin and tonic. I like a classic.

[Interview Host]

Is it your summer drink?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah, it can be. I mean, really rare. It's probably been a couple of years since I've had one, but I do like that. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. Also a good Negroni.

[Brex Representative]

Oh God.

[Interview Host]

Anything but a Negroni. Yeah, Negronis.

[Brex Representative]

Oh.

[Interview Host]

This is from the ground up. I'm inc. Executive Editor Diana Ransom and.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I'm Editor at Large Christine Ligorio Chavkin. Today's Episode the Billion Dollar Whiskey Story so Diana, for today's episode, I spoke with Fawn Weaver, who is the founder, CEO and chief historian of Uncle Nearest. Are you familiar with Uncle Nearest Whiskey?

[Interview Host]

Yeah, I mean, I'm familiar with Fawn's work. I mean, we featured her a couple of times in the magazine over the years and she's a great business lady.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

So yeah, she's a fantastic speaker, she's a fantastic storyteller. And you know, she when founding Uncle Nearest, she took on this additional role as chief historian of her company. So she did a lot of digging into the history of Nearest Green, the history of the American whiskey distilling process, and her company's kind of very adjacent to Jack Daniel's and Cher's in part of its history, but she's rebuilding it as a brand with a black legacy which is really cool and really important and kind of opens up her brand to a different level of business as well, which we will definitely get into in this episode.

[Interview Host]

Awesome. I mean, I know I'm. As you know, I'm familiar with her work, but I'm curious why. Why would you want to talk to Fawn now?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Well, Phan just hit a new milestone. Her company is estimated to be valued at more than $1 billion. 1.1 billion, to be precise. And this makes her just one of a handful of black American women who have built companies valued at more than $1 billion. I believe she is the fifth ever.

[Interview Host]

Yeah. So Sheila Johnson from BET.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Aw.

[Interview Host]

Oprah.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Oprah.

[Interview Host]

I think, yeah. It's unfortunate that there are so few, for sure.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

And I just wanted to take a moment and celebrate this milestone. So here's Fawn on it.

[Meta Representative]

It just means we're on the ground floor. That's all. To me, that's what it means. Our goals for this company, what we are working toward, what we are pushing toward, what we're pedal to the metal for. This to us, is we're still on the ground floor. We haven't even gotten to floor one yet as far as we're concerned. And everyone in the company feels the same way. And so we look at things like this and we look at a milestone, but we still look at it as simply the foundation of a company that we're building.

[Diana Ransom]

That's fantastic. So did you take a moment to celebrate at all? No, no, Just. Still just building.

[Meta Representative]

When I say we are so laser beam focused, it would be like someone is climbing a mountain and they're celebrating at, like the tenth step. That's not the place to celebrate. So we've got a long way to go before we will do that now. We celebrate each other all the time. We celebrate wins. Right now, the industry is double digits down and we're up. We do take the time to just celebrate those. We consider them pretty extraordinary moments when you look at us being an independent against very big guys that control this industry. And so we do celebrate that internally with our team members. We high five each other, but that's about how much time we give. It is a high five. High five, and maybe a drama of Uncle Nearest. That's about all the time we give it.

[Diana Ransom]

Well, I mean, I was hesitant to ask you if you had this moment as a goal, you know, if you set out to become a billion dollar company, because it seems so audacious as.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

To, like, have as a goal or.

[Diana Ransom]

To have be one of the only five African American women who have founded and run a billion dollar company to.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Have that as a goal.

[Meta Representative]

Yeah, our goal is 40 billion. So 1 billion to us is like, all right, let's, we got a long way to go. So we just aren't. This isn' that is exciting to us, I think because of the history of it, only five African American women. But we're not comparing ourselves to other African American women because none have succeeded in this industry. Everyone to succeed in this industry has been male, has been white. And so when we compare ourselves to that, we're not even remotely close.

[Diana Ransom]

Right. That's amazing. So bring me up to date on how the rest of the company growth is going.

[Meta Representative]

The Nearest Green Distillery. We're now at 458 acres in the heart of Shelbyville and we're the seventh most visited distillery in the world. Not just whiskey distilleries or bourbon distilleries, but that's everything. So out of the tens of thousands, I just got back from London and I mean, there are more whiskey distilleries and distilleries, gin distilleries out there in that area. And we're the seventh most visited in the entire world. And so every weekend we have maybe about 5,000 people who come through our distillery and they learn the legacy of Nearest Green into us. That's the most important part, because then they go back out into the community, back out into wherever they are, their golf courses or their country clubs or the club clubs. And the one thing we do celebrate is we set out to create a brand that appealed to every demographic, every corner of America, and we've succeeded in that. And so every weekend when I'm looking at the people that are at Near Screen Distillery, I'm marveling that every tour that usually has about 25 people on it, every tour, you're seeing three generations deep. You're seeing every political affiliation, every race, every background. And that's what we set out to do. So if we celebrate anything, it's that we achieve something in the industry that no one else has. You go to any other distillery and the people that are there look very similar. The people who are behind the counters, the tour guides, as well as the people who are there as visitors. You come to Nearest Grain Distillery and it is an amazing melting pot of an experience and we do celebrate that a lot.

[Diana Ransom]

You mentioned the distillery itself is an education and is a process of learning. And I found that every time I've spoken to you in the past, I've gotten an education in the vastly underappreciated role of former slaves in America's whiskey economy. And in your latest book and in the company, you take on this role as a historian, and you've been very conscious about that, especially in recent years. So I wanted to talk a little bit about that and about bringing that history forward and how you have come to perceive your role as that sort of chief historian.

[Meta Representative]

Absolutely. As chief historian, I really am a subject matter expert. So I don't believe that there's anyone in the world who knows more about both Niers Green and Jack Daniel, uncle nearest the company and Jack Daniels the company, than me. I do know a lot about that, but I'm always hesitant when people say historian, because if you ask me anything outside of that subject matter, you may get a blank face. So my time, my focus, my energy is really, truly on this particular story and these legacies. But I love and relish in this role because even when I wasn't doing this, it's what my husband calls my rabbit holes. One of my favorite things to do when I am not working is to literally just dive in a hole of research and just hang out there. And I've always loved that. So to be able to bring that love for history and research and really knowing a subject. But also, I'm always looking for hope and love in the middle of every single situation. I'm that person who's going to keep digging and digging, no matter how terrible what look on the surface. I'm going to dig and hope that I find something. And certain stories, you're not going to find anything. But then you have the story of Jesse Owens and everything that was going on in Germany at that time with Hitler. And there's nothing great about that. There's no hope in that. But then you have this athlete lose, and he literally defied the Nazis and took Jesse Owens on a lap around afterwards, hand in hand and arm in arm to celebrate his victory. But more importantly, and this is the piece that people forget is he was the one who Germany expected to win. He fouled out on the jump. But then rather than just saying, you know, Jesse, you have the goal, he said, no, take your last jump. Because he knew that he would not just have the gold, but the world record if he did. And so those are the kind of stories that I look for in the midst of the ugly stories. You always have something like that. It's. I think Tupac called it a rose through the concrete. You always have something like that. If you're looking for it Yeah, I.

[Diana Ransom]

Mean, just the love for the research. Obviously, as a journalist, this very much resonates with me. But from the. Even before you had a company, you had that going into this rabbit hole and that foundation of doing this research. But I do feel like many founders wouldn't have the kind of foresight to even brand themselves or take it in and say, declare this role, rather than just say, this is my hobby. This is my fun little thing. Right. But, like, you've really embraced it and made it part of your company's destination.

[Meta Representative]

I think it's because people look at us as a whiskey business, a spirit business. But if you talk to anyone in my company, they will tell you we're in the legacy cementing business. So for us, it was about the story. It was about the brand. Now, why that works very well in whiskey is because every brand in whiskey across the board, around the world, but especially in America, there has never been a bourbon brand to succeed that did not have a really strong backstory. Now, many of them believe, like it's up on the wall at Jack Daniel Distillery. It says, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. You can pretty much find that around most of the bourbons in this industry. They stretch the truth quite a bit. But for what we were doing, it was really important that we told the story with facts because we were coming into the middle of the most ubiquitous American brand, American spirit brand. We were adding to its story. We were dismantling a few pieces of. And so it had to be impenetrable. It had to literally be flawless. And so that research was really important and no one was going to do it like I did it, because I felt as though I was in the story. There was nothing surface about it. I really felt like I was in.

[Diana Ransom]

It and you had that role and then like cementing it, as you say. Yeah. Let's take a moment and go back to your own story. You wrote in your new book, Love and Whiskey, that you left home at age 15 and at times were living in homeless shelters. You then started your first company at 18 and as you wrote, failed by age 20. I believe these days contain some dark times. How did you emerge from that?

[Meta Representative]

Yeah, so I don't necessarily consider it and I still don't a failure. It was a PR and special events company. Both of those things came very natural to me. Product integration, which wasn't a thing in the 90s, that came natural to me. And looking at something, we now have a name for it at the time I was doing it. There wasn't actually a name for it. Said, listen, why are we sending out press releases and asking for the press to talk about this? Let's take these products to where the press will already be and let's bring it together. So now we know that to be product integration. But that came very natural to me. It made sense to me. And so that company, immediately, I had clients, but I also hired a lot of people. Way too many people. And so those lessons that you learn, I think that when you're looking at failure, it's not until you actually quit that it becomes the failure. If you just keep going, it just keeps rolling forward. And so for this, I don't know that I ever quit. Because if you look at Uncle Nearest, if you look at the company, there's more earned, unearned media around this spirit brand than probably any spirit brand in history. Yes, we're easily one of the most talked about CPG brands in America, and we have for the last seven years. And so this company was built on really asking the press to come along with us on this journey because there was no way we were going to be able to go toe to toe with the big guys who spend hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising every year. There was no way for us to compete with that. And so it was building relationships with folks like you, Inc. Very early on and saying, hey, will you help us in this journey? And you all have been very consistent and very kind in doing that.

[Interview Host]

Can we stop here for a minute and we announce that you touched on something with Fawn that I would love to explore a little bit more. This idea of storytelling and how the narrative that she came across as she's starting this business helped basically prompt more storytelling. And she's just really good at it. Right. I think it helps that she started out her career in pr.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, she does seem to be a natural, too. She kind of told me, this is how I talk. Like, this is how I act at a dinner party, whatever. This is me. And she's so poised, it's kind of a joy to speak with her. But you're right that spinning this story, like taking the story from these dusty pages of history, bringing it forward, bringing it into her company, it's almost like a little bit of universe building. Right. Like, she's created ip, really, she's created this story, and it creates almost a tourist destination for her company as well. And she's also recently written a book to sort of cement this legacy of Nearest Green. Further, it's called Love and Whiskey.

[Interview Host]

Awesome. Oh my gosh. But I am curious though. Obviously one can weave a good yarn, but like, how do you grow a company from this? Like, how does she move past the $1.1 billion marker, right?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I mean, she's hit this milestone and now she's got some decisions to make based on where this company needs to be 20 years from now, where it's going to be 40 years from now. So I'm going to talk to her about that. I'm going to talk to her about how she balances growth with profitability. But first, we're going to take a quick break.

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[Diana Ransom]

Sales are great, whatever the numbers come to be, but you also have made such huge infrastructure investments in your company. Can you talk a little bit about the kind of balance there and give some insight into your growth strategy and profitability strategy?

[Meta Representative]

Yeah, there is no balance, by the way. So when we're. A lot of the things that we're doing, we're doing it because we're looking at, what do we need 20 years from now? What is the infrastructure? If we are going to build this to a $40 billion company, what is the infrastructure that we need to make sure that we have now to be on track to be where we want to be in 20 years? How do we do that? So the decisions that we've made, for instance, with our cognac brand that we're seeding the ground for and brought the team together, the first thing we did there before we began working on the cognac itself, was to buy the vineyards and to become the largest grand champagne vineyard owner in the city of Cognac, and to bring together the best and the brightest to help us to create a cognac unlike what we've had in America, to make it as great as the cognac that usually goes to China, what comes to America is nowhere near the quality of what has always been sent to China. And I said, no, we're going to change that. I want America to have the same kind of cognac that I can get when I am in France, when I am in China. And so that was really important. And so going there and buying the chateau, making sure we have a home place for people to come to and to learn the history that we're going to share with relation to cognac. And that brand is going to blow people's minds. But yeah, I think that if you are in this to just sort of flip the company or build it very quickly and sell it to someone else, you don't make decisions like that. You just put your name on a bottle, hope the juice is good, send it out, see what people thinks. And for us, we said, no, we're building in the infrastructure first because we want every consumer that comes to whether it's Uncle Nearest we bought Square One Vodka. When that is rolled back out at the top of next year, we want for people to feel fully invested in helping us to build every single brand. And so we put the infrastructure in place that we need in order to bring consumers along with us.

[Diana Ransom]

That is fascinating. So I did not even know about the chateau and the European expansion.

[Meta Representative]

How did you miss that expansion. How did you miss that?

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

I don't know.

[Diana Ransom]

Three small children and blinders on, I guess.

[Meta Representative]

You know, we bought Domaine St Martin. We bought the Martel estate.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Okay.

[Meta Representative]

And this is literally I just posted on social media this morning, we are in the midst of our second harvest. And so harvest is usually between September and October. So we're harvesting right now. And yes, that is coming down the pike very soon. Wow. So when we're looking at Uncle Nearest, we don't see Uncle Nearest as a brand. And the best way I describe this to people who aren't in this industry in a way that makes sense is if I say Bacardi, most people, consumers will think rum, but no one in the industry thinks rum. When you say Bacardi in the industry, we immediately think Grey Goose Vodka because they own that. We immediately think Doucet Cognac because they own that. We immediately think Patron Tequila because they own that. So in this industry, the only way you can really grow and build, and I learned this very early on, is you really have to be a spirit conglomerate because the way that the consumer moves, it's up and down in terms of what they are in the mood for at any particular season, what price point they want to pay during whatever market we're in at that point. And so when you're talking about growing a brand for decades and centuries, you have to have something in your portfolio that is for everyone. So yes, the cognac company is French company, but that is being raised up. We bought the first organic spirits company in America. It started about 20 years ago. And that's square one, organic spirits. And so we bought that and we announced that earlier this year. And then of course, we have Uncle Nearest. And so all of these fall under the Uncle Nearest Inc. Umbrella, but each one is its own company.

[Diana Ransom]

Wow. So it's a cross market portfolio. How many brands do you think it will eventually say within the next five to ten?

[Meta Representative]

Still not convinced. The cartel doesn't run tequila until somebody can tell me that the roads in Jalisco that somebody's not paying a tax to somebody that's not the government. I don't have an intention of going into tequila, but it doesn't mean that I won't. Eventually. I need to better understand what happens on the ground there in Jalisco, and I haven't been yet. So for right now, it will be Cognac Vodka American whiskey, bourbon, Tennessee whiskey. That's more than enough to keep us busy over the next decade.

[Diana Ransom]

Absolutely. So you've said a fascinating thing when it comes to raising capital. You've said the right money will find you if you're turning down the wrong money. Yes, I love this. When and where did you develop this philosophy and how do you stick to it?

[Meta Representative]

You know, I noticed that a lot of women and people of color specifically, and this is across the board, but that's who I was tracking. I noticed a lot of them when they would achieve some level of success and then they would bring in venture capital money or they'd bring in private equity money, and I could almost clock it with an egg timer. How long it would be before those companies began to decline and how long it would be before that founder was kicked out and replaced by somebody else. I began looking at this and I realized it was a three year and a five year mark. Now, I knew very little about VC or PE at the time. I just was noticing this pattern and I said, what the hell is this pattern? Why are these folks, every single time there's this huge announcement about these big investments and then all of a sudden they're out in two years or they're out in three years, these founders. And then the question became why? And then when I dug into it, I realized it was the financial partners they brought in. And so coming into this, I said, you know what? Gotta have the right financial partners. Those who aren't going to just look at me on a spreadsheet, but those are going to look at this and say, hey, we are going to help you build this. We're going to open our Rolodex, we're going to pound the pavement with you. And so for a lot of our growth, when you're talking about national accounts, we have a presence in national accounts. And a national account is like a big chain, a Capital Grill or a Morton's, or just the things that you can see in all the different cities. Our national account, Hyatt Hotels, ihg, that type of thing. Yeah, we have a very large footprint. You can go into any Delta Lounge in the country, you're going to see us there on the cocktail menu. That is extremely rare for an independent company, very rare in this industry. And a part of that had to do with the fact that we have investors that said, hey, I know this person. And they would make that first connection for us. And of course we'd have to do all the work and the follow up and all of the rest of that. But there's something about just the first connection. If we can get that, we can do the work to get the rest. And we look at everything pretty long term. So we can look at an account and say, hey, we might have to call on this account for four years before they'll ever say yes, but that's okay. That's a part of what we do. And so now what people are seeing, which seems like it's fast and overnight, a lot of these things that they're seeing are things that we've been working on diligently for four and five years.

[Diana Ransom]

So you stuck to mostly individual investors, at least from the.

[Meta Representative]

I stuck to all individuals. All individuals.

[Diana Ransom]

So, I mean. But it takes a special fortitude to say no to a check.

[Meta Representative]

It does. Unless you've watched and talked to other founders and seen how miserable they are when they're simply trying to continue to build what got investors interested in the first place. And they can't because they're in nonstop conversations and there's all this pushback and now everyone's an expert in what you're building, even though they've never built what you're building. I've seen the frustration. I can count on three fingers the number of founders that I know that did not have this push and pull when it came to investors. And I'm so grateful. I'm so fortunate. I call our group the sixth man and they have been so incredibly supportive of me and what we're doing. I believe if I had a VC or a PE in there, I don't believe that would be the case because every single year I have to make decisions that could fail and I have to pivot very quickly. But when you're doing something that's never been done before, as I'm doing, I have to have the flexibility to try and fail. And if you don't have investors that are willing to let you try and fail without second guessing you every step of the way, you're in for a very miserable growth strategy. And so now everyone. I have SPVs in, but even within the SPVs, I know the individuals and the individuals within those SPVs still very much so look at themselves as investors. They may not be on my cap table, but they are in fact investors.

[Diana Ransom]

I'm guessing you don't have a vision to IPO anytime soon then.

[Meta Representative]

No. Have you seen what has happened with Those that have IPOs?

[Diana Ransom]

I've seen some very wild and unfortunate examples recently. I will say that there's been a.

[Meta Representative]

Lot of them and sometimes the market doesn't get it. I have had the great honor of working with Endeavor and we took the company public. I joined the board right before we went public. And is anyone in the industry, there's any duo more brilliant in this particular in the entertainment and the content space than Ari Emanuel, Mark Shapiro and Patrick Weitzel? I just don't think it. And I've had the opportunity to be around them and also to be around some of the leaders of the others in this space. And the fact that the market kept undervaluing the company, now we're taking it private. And so when you look at a company like Endeavor where they're absolutely brilliant at what they do, and if you just let the leaders lead, they will always make sure that company is profitable. But yet the street just kept, well, what about this and what about this and what about this? And you get to a place where you're like, listen, we're losing track of what it is that we do because we keep having to answer your questions.

[Diana Ransom]

So you've talked a lot about accelerating growth in a business without losing your soul. We obviously at Inc. Report on fast growing businesses all the time and a lot can get lost in the shuffle, especially when you're on that really fast growth trajectory. What have you built into the foundations of your company that keeps it rooted and keeps it from shifting away from that foundation or from its soul?

[Meta Representative]

We're here to cement the legacy of Near Screen. What that means to us is anywhere in the world you can go and you can say the name Jack Daniel, you can say the name Johnnie Walker whether or not people know exactly who they are. Like most people don't know that Johnnie Walker was a teetotaler. He never actually tasted his own whiskey. Most people don't know that, but they still know his name. And whether or not a person drinks Johnnie Walker or Jack Daniel or not, you still know who they are. You know Johnny's silhouette and you know Jack's portrait. We want that for Nearest. We want for people to be able to go anywhere in the world and to know who Nearest Green is. We have more of an emphasis on the legacy because we don't have a picture of Nearest Green. So we can't cement his legacy with a photo. We submit his legacy by everyone knowing who he was and what he did. And then we, of course, have this photo of his son, George Green, which is everywhere. And so that to us, it's very easy not to lose our soul because we're not even close. There was. I just did an event at the Whiskey show in London. And I asked the people in the room how many. You are not familiar with Nearest Green, and I'd say it was two thirds of the room and that's in London. So imagine if I was in Glasgow or imagine if I was somewhere outside of. Right. And I expected that, by the way, because we haven't really dove in there, love. And Whiskey just launched there. That's why I was there, was to launch that book and that audio book there. So people will now start to know who Nearest Green is over there. But once his name is ubiquitous in America and in the uk, guess what? We got a whole lot of the rest of the world for people to know his name. And so for us, we've just scratched the surface here. And so no one in this company is losing sight of why we are here and what we are doing.

[Diana Ransom]

And you've maintained a pretty lean organization, at least. The last time we spoke, I remember you were like growing so fast in less than 100 people, I believe.

[Meta Representative]

Yeah, we're just over 100 people that has it.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

That's amazing.

[Meta Representative]

We all work incredibly, incredibly hard. But I'm also very conscientious to avoid burnout and to make sure that our teams are taking the time for themselves, for their family, for things that are interesting to them outside of the workplace. We have every second week of July is what matters most week for us. No one is allowed to send an email or a Slack or a text message unless it's just, you know, you're checking in on a colleague because you're friends. But outside of that, it is that focus is on them, just spending time with what is most important to them. We do the same thing over the Christmas holidays. Shut it down, don't send to Slack, don't send an email. And so at least twice a year as a company, we are making sure that everyone is focused. But I also take off and I'm very open about it. I post about it a lot. But for 27 years, maybe 28 now, I have taken off 24 hours a week. And when I say I take off, I mean I don't check an email, I don't check a Slack. If you send me a text message that is business related, you either will get nothing back from me or you'll literally get one word, Sabbath.

[Diana Ransom]

That's good.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Meta Representative]

And so because of that, then my team looks at it and goes, well, if boss lady, as they like to say, if boss lady is taking off 24 hours, it doesn't make sense. If I'm working seven days a week, she's working six. So that, I believe, is what allows for us to be able to work with such a lean team is because of the fact that everyone does take that time to rest. Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

And you model the right behavior first. Yes, Ye.

[Meta Representative]

At least I try.

[Diana Ransom]

And I was gonna ask, how do you use that time, then how do you recharge?

[Meta Representative]

I drink and I marry. That is literally. I eat the best foods, I drink the best uncle nearest cocktails. And that is what I. Every Sabbath, I will sit. My husband and I, we literally do whatever we feel like doing that day. If that means we stay in our robes all day, that's what we do. If it means we walk around the grounds of our property, that's what we do. If we want to go out, if we want. But it's whatever we feel like doing for that 24 hours is what we'll do. And when we have really challenging weeks, which this year is built for that, when we have really challenging weeks, we literally will count down to the Sabbath. Like, we can keep going at this pace, at this rate, with this many challenges, we can keep blocking and tackling because we've got three days left to the Sabbath. So. So that is the way that we do that.

[Diana Ransom]

That's fantastic. Do you often give advice to other entrepreneurs in achieving that sort of balance or setting a path for themselves to that time off or that whatever they need to recharge?

[Meta Representative]

I talk about it all the time because I think that our country is sleep deprived. We are a country that is sleep deprived and is really using drugs to speed up our day and to give us energy during our day. And if you were to strip away all of the things that are being used to keep people alert. Right. Or take away the sleeping pills to put people down at night, then you have a whole lot of people that might be like zombies around here.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

Right.

[Meta Representative]

And so for entrepreneurs, you are going to deal with challenges every day, and the challenges are going to be different, but you need your full creative faculties to be able to creatively come up with a solution every single time. Every challenge has a solution, but how quickly you get to it, I believe, is how quickly you're able to tap into that part of your brain that is responsible for figuring out creative solutions. Well, when you worry and you're sleep deprived, that part of your brain is shut down. And so now it takes you longer. So I get to solutions a lot faster than most people because I'm well rested. And so every entrepreneur when they ask me that question, that's always my number one question. How rested are you?

[Diana Ransom]

Yeah.

[Meta Representative]

And if you're not rested, I sleep solid eight hours a night. And if I get to that, congratulations.

[Diana Ransom]

On doing like the prayer motion. Yeah.

[Meta Representative]

If I get to my day off and there is any six day, seven day in that my body will take those extra hours and I will not wake up until my body is got its eight hours a night collectively, over the course of seven days.

[Diana Ransom]

Wow, that's amazing. I hope everyone can get on that path.

[Meta Representative]

You have to be very intentional. It does not happen naturally at all. And it's actually, at least in American society, it's counterintuitive. It's also counter to our culture. Our culture says, you go, you only need three hours, you only need four hours. And when people tell me that, I refer them to a book called why We Sleep. And in that book, it very clearly tracks Alzheimer's, which. Who wants to stick their family with Alzheimer's? Any person who's had someone in their family with Alzheimer's or dementia, they don't want to be that person who their family is having to deal with that. Yet they've tracked it directly back to lack of sleep. So in my family, all the men in my family, I've told them, I said, I have made an executive decision on behalf of all of my sisters. I'm putting you all in homes if you get Alzheimer's because you have a choice right now. So you're bragging about you only need four hours of sleep and your body needs more. And it's been proven. And so all the men in the family are like, well, we're gonna start figuring out how to sleep. So Fawn doesn't put us. And we say it jokingly, but I'm actually, there's something there.

[Diana Ransom]

There is some truth there.

[Meta Representative]

Yeah, there is some truth there that it's not fair to the people who will have to take care of us. And if the one thing we can do is to sleep, that's the least we can do for them. Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

And for ourselves. You've said in the past that a lot of founders don't Share quote unquote the secret sauce as to like, how your success get me, but how do you approach kind of mentorship and sharing those sorts of things? Obviously, you're here speaking on this podcast. You do a lot of writing. Is that the primary vehicle or are you embarking on any mentorship as well, internally or externally?

[Meta Representative]

I share everything that I learn. People that follow me on social Media. If I learn it, I'm sharing it. But most of it is through social media and through the press. And when I get a lot of questions about something, for instance, like the capital raise, I literally sat down and wrote exactly what I did, all seven points to raise capital. And I did it as an OP ed. And so when I do get a lot of questions from people, I will then write it out for everyone. But for me, my focus is building Uncle Neris, and I can't do that. And there are a lot of people out there that will say I am a mentor to them. And I'm not sure exactly what that term means these days. It seems to be morphing. But you will have a lot of entrepreneurs out there that will say, without question, I'm a mentor. But really all that means is I respond to them and I answer their questions very honestly when they ask the question. But I don't have anyone that it's like, okay, I'm going to schedule an appointment to talk to you once a month. I don't have that kind of time.

[Diana Ransom]

What's the best advice you've ever gotten?

[Meta Representative]

I will say a part of that is that coming into this industry, I had to reject almost all of the advice because no woman or person of color had succeeded. So everything that was shared with me wasn't applicable. Now that we are in it and we've established ourselves, then there are certain things that different people in the I will seek information, and it's relevant now. But as we were building, it wasn't relevant. It didn't apply to us. And so when I look at overall advice, the funny thing is someone asked me this recently, but it was a written question. It was very easy for me to go into my Bible and send back some words of King Solomon and say, this is probably some of the best advice that I have ever gotten. But most of the advice wouldn't be advice that was given to me. I'm a person who has spent a lot of time studying our titans of America so that JP Morgans, the Carnegies, the Schwabs, the Rockefellers, the folks who we see on the side of buildings and we forget that not only were they living, but they actually took the time to share with us exactly how they built it, the mistakes they made. And so if I were to say any advice, it would be an amalgamation of all of the mistakes they've made and their successes. And so when we're talking about buying land, for instance, I learned that from our titans. That was the most important thing to them, it didn't matter. Yes, you might be building a steel company. Right. But what were you using that steel for? For most of them, at least for us, you were talking about the car industry. You were also talking about railroads. Well, for the railroads, you needed the land to be able to connect the steel. And then when you're talking about someone like a Henry Ford, he left so much information, you're talking about someone who did not have formal education. We get stuck on college and what our SAT scores are and all the rest of that stuff. And you're talking about someone who never even went to middle school. And he just leaned into his gifts. He shared what he learned and also owned a lot of land. So, you know, when I looked at how did the American Titans build their wealth and pass it to the next generation? It's a lot of land.

[Diana Ransom]

It's a lot of land. But you mentioned this leaving information, and that is a keen ability to tell your own story, to leave that information. Right. You are a fantastic storyteller. Where did that come from within you or what did you do to self educate? In terms of becoming a great storyteller, you wrote in your book that you consumed just a ton of nonfiction when you were a teenager, when you were in your 20s.

[Meta Representative]

I believe it's just innate, but I also believe it is. I'm very comfortable in my own skin. I've never felt as though I needed to package my words in a specific way. I've never done media training, and so I've not had anyone mold my words. And so I think that when we are free to just be exactly who we are. So you and I. Yes. You have on a headset, I have on a headset. We have two big mics in front of us. But really, I'm just having a conversation with you. We could be having this exact same conversation on a couch. So if you think about people that you talk to in the living room on a sofa, that's just a normal conversation. We're all storytelling. The question becomes, does that change when the lights are on? There's a mic in front of you. For me, it does not. And I think that really is the only difference. Yeah.

[Diana Ransom]

Oh, I love that. Well, thank you, Fawn, so much for being here today and again, once again, telling your story.

[Meta Representative]

I appreciate you so much.

[Diana Ransom]

Thank you. I appreciate you.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

After talking with Fawn, I want to highlight what she said about letting leaders lead, which allows them then to make sure that the company is profitable. She had really smart thoughts about bringing in financial partners or investors. She knows that once a company does that, then they start having to answer to them, perhaps at the detriment of staying true to their company's original mission. I think Phan's intuition on how she wanted to navigate her company's growth was gutsy, but it paid off. She put a tremendous amount of energy and time into building the story behind her brand and becoming Uncle Nearest own Chief Historian. Doing that important research and placing her company into the narratives was so smart. It gives her customers something to learn, something to root for, and it even opened up her company to hospitality endeavors, created this entire universe of a story. She knew that she had to be a trailblazer for Uncle Nearest to succeed. Now she has cemented her place in history as just one of a few black women entrepreneurs to ever reach a greater than $1 billion valuation. Cheers to that. That's all for this episode of from the Ground Up.

[Interview Host]

Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your podcast platform of choice. Also, if you like this episode or have suggestions of topics you'd like to hear about, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or reach out to us on Inc's social channels, LinkedIn X or Instagram.

[Christine Ligorio Chavkin]

From the Ground up is produced by Maryam Ki Parawice and Avery Miles, editing by Blake Odom, mix and sound design by Nicholas Torres. Our Executive producer is in sunny California and his name Josh Christensen. Thank you for listening and see you next week.

[Glenfiddich Ad]

Hi listeners, I'm Blake Odom, producer of from the Ground Up. Today we have a special segment brought to you by Inc. In collaboration with our partners at Glenfiddich Single Malt Scotch Whiskey. This year at the INK 5000 gala, Glen Fiddick presented the inaugural Legacy Award to Stephen Marsh, founder of smarsh. This award recognizes a trailblazer, an individual who has graced the Inc. 5000 list multiple times, embodying the spirit of innovation, boldness and a relentless drive to defy the ordinary. Much like Glenfiddich, a brand that has pushed the boundaries of excellence throughout its 130 year history to become the world's most awarded single malt Scotch whiskey, Stephen Marsh exemplifies the courage and brilliance it takes to redefine industries and elevate the game. Inc. Editor and Mike Hoffman spoke with Stephen Marsh about his remarkable journey, the legacy he has built, and the honor of being the first recipient of this award presented by Glenn Fiddick. Here's that captivating conversation. Enjoy and be inspired.

[G]

Hi, I'm Mike Hoffman, Editor in Chief of Inc. And I'm delighted to be here today with Steve Marsh, the founder of Smarsh, a multi time Inc. 5000 honoree and the recipient of the inaugural Inc. 5000 Legacy Award presented by Glenn Fiddick. Steve, thanks so much for joining me.

[H]

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Mike.

[G]

Yeah, this is great. Let me get this straight. You've been on the Inc. 5000 list 17 times so far?

[H]

I think that's correct. I think 17 times.

[G]

We double checked it. You've been on the list 17 times. How many years has the company been in business?

[H]

Since 2001, so about 23.

[G]

I guess you've been on the list more than you've not been on the list in the 23 years of your corporate life.

[H]

I think once we finally made the revenue threshold, we made the list and have been on it since.

[G]

Well, congratulations. It's amazing to make the Inc. 5000. It's amazing to make the Inc. 5000 a couple of times. And to make it 17 times puts you in really rare error. Only a few companies have made it more than 15 times. Congratulations. You started the company in 2001, is that right?

[H]

That's right.

[G]

Your name is Steve Marsh and the name of the company is Smarsh. Do I have it right that your original email address had something to do with the ultimate name of the company?

[H]

I incorporated to do consulting work, never thinking that the business name would see the light of day. It was just incorporated as Smarsh Inc. Because Marsh was taken by the large insurance company, so we couldn't use that. My friends at the time that, you know, my coworkers had all called me Smarsh because that was like my email handle. So I said, hey, let's just go with that. The domain name was available, and many years later, with a larger marketing department and more resources available to us, more domain names available to us, we still decided to keep the name Smarsh. But that should serve as proof that I never had intention of building this business into anything.

[G]

So who was your first client?

[H]

My first client was a small brokerage out of Boston, Massachusetts. And a friend of mine had worked there and had told me about this need to archive communications for regulatory compliance. And I knew virtually nothing. I mean, I knew absolutely nothing about that. I knew that I needed to make some money to pay rent and that I had some technology skills. So I set out to actually help them implement a solution that I thought I would source from another vendor and quickly found that there weren't other vendors out there doing this. At least to service the small and mid sized companies. The business at that point pivoted from being a consulting business to being the archiving and communications intelligence business that it's become today.

[G]

When you started on the hockey stick like trajectory of growth, what was the first moment, if you remember, where you knew, oh, this is not just consulting business, this is a real business, a technology business, and actually it's a fast growth technology business.

[H]

One moment that comes to mind is we had a large competitor in an adjacent space. They weren't archiving the way we were. They did data backup or something and they made an offer to buy the company really in our first year of effort in trying to sell the archiving service. And it was hard as a founder to turn down. I think it was like a million dollars. But it was complicated, but we passed on it. That was, but that really validated for me that we had built something that was at least perceived to be of value to someone else. And of course, making the Inc 5000 list for the first time after applying earlier that year and not being able to apply the year prior to that because we didn't meet the, we weren't big enough, we didn't meet the revenue thresholds anyway. When we made that list, that was fantastic validation for all the hard work that we had done. It gave us a sense of credibility when we would go out to our customers. By being able to put the Inc. 5000 recipient logo on our emails and on our website, that actually helped us grow to the next level.

[G]

Beyond that, you at some point took growth capital, private equity, is that right?

[H]

We did. It wasn't until 2007. First investors were minority investors in 2007. Ironically, the point at which they became interested was a point at which we no longer needed money. I think many founders probably go through this. When you're trying to raise money, it's a lot harder than when you don't need it. When you don't need it, everybody seems to come out of the woodwork and then they try to convince you why you should take money. I think that was a key moment where we realized we needed to significantly upgrade our technology infrastructure if we wanted to win bigger and bigger customers. We were making incremental changes every year. The rip and replace that you hear technology companies go through, where every six months or so we were taking out old equipment, replacing it with new, bigger and better equipment, and that really just wasn't scalable. It was becoming a distraction to have to keep going through those projects every six months or so. By Raising capital. We were able to get off that hamster wheel, and we were also able to start making some acquisitions. Became a part of life from that moment forward.

[G]

What did you learn about business ownership and business leadership going through the process of acquisitions?

[H]

You know, we gained access to people who had operated at the level beyond where we were, which is a pattern, you know, we'll see occur over and over in our business. But there were smarter people who had more experience in a variety of areas, and they presented some of the reasons why we would want to do some acquisitions. They also educated me and the rest of my team on how to do them. But it taught me that there are a variety of ways to help grow the business. You probably don't want to grow your business just doing acquisitions, Although that does create value for a lot of companies. But for us, it was a combination of organic growth through innovation and product development and serving our customers with different products and services and making some of these acquisitions to bring in new technology, to bring in additional competitors, to bring in more expertise than we otherwise would possess. And today, that trend continues. You know, we're trying to bring in more AI expertise. For example, we might look to do an acquisition there.

[G]

Can I ask, where are you guys at revenue now?

[H]

We are about 500 million.

[G]

And what's the fastest growth part of the company right now?

[H]

There's a lot of focus on leveraging the data that we have stored on behalf of our customers. So if you think about the initial use case, for those that don't know, is that we help customers by storing their electronic communication so that they can meet regulatory requirements. You have to have this stuff. You have to be able to produce it. That's kind of the baseline service. But what we found is that over the years, you start to amass more and more really valuable information on behalf of our customers. So we have years and years worth of emails, text messages, zoom calls, you know, whatever it may be. In a world where artificial intelligence is taking over and people are trying to find ways to harness the value of data, we're sitting on what we think is one of the biggest gold mines out there in terms of data. It's employee communications that were captured initially for a different reason, but now can be turned into sales opportunities, customer service opportunities, new product ideas. I think we're seeing a lot of growth.

[G]

So an archive can become a large language model.

[H]

Yeah.

[G]

So this is obviously the Inc. 5000 Legacy Award brought to you by Glenn Fiddick. As you think about the legacy of the company and your legacy As a foundation founder, what do you still hope for? What is your idea of what the legacy you want to leave is?

[H]

We have a very unique culture, I think one that reflects what I wanted to create many, many years ago. I want it to be an organization that hopefully my kids one day look back on and say, wow, dad must have built something pretty interesting here. It's still around, it's still relevant. Our customers still find value in what we're doing. I just want to see it reach its maximum potential. Not every company, even, you know, not every company that is started or that I'm involved in or that I invest in has the same opportunity to persist through time. Some companies are better as a short term product that maybe gets sold to someone else and they integrate the technologies. Some technologies have a shorter lifespan where maybe it's two to three years and then you have to move on. This is a business that I believe truly has the opportunity to exist for many, many years and to be relevant by just listening to customers and adapting and finding or addressing use cases that we found many years ago.

[G]

Steve Marsh, the founder of Smarsh, a half billion dollar company founded in a Brooklyn apartment that's been on the Inc. 5000 list 17 times. Thanks so much for joining us today.

[H]

Thanks for having me.

[G]

Before I let you go, we have these glasses of Glenn Fiddick here. You are the inaugural recipient of the Inc. 5000 Legacy Award presented by Glenn Fiddick. So let's cheers to your success.

[H]

Cheers.

[Glenfiddich Ad]

Congratulations again to Stephen Marsh. And I couldn't end this episode without getting a little taste of Glenfiddich myself. And since I got a bottle right here. Cheers to you listeners with Glenfiddich, the world's most awarded single malt Scotch whiskey. Drink responsibly. Glenfiddich single malt Scotch Whiskey is copyrighted 2024 and imported by William Grant & Sons, Inc. New York, NY.