Bonnie Ghosh (3:35)

And Dave, I know that. Well, it seems like most people in the audience are familiar with Rec Philly, but if you could talk a little bit about Rec Philly and what specifically your agency does for creators and artists.

Dave Silver (3:48)

Yeah, thanks for having me and thanks for asking. It's an honor to be here with Matt. I'm a big fan of Mountjoy, so I was pretty geeked out to be sitting next to him on a panel. Yeah, Rec R E C Philly. You know, a lot of folks have been to our space at 9th and Market, if you've been there. We've been serving the creative community for over a decade now. And in our 10,000 square foot space we have music studios and podcasting studios and photo studios and two concert venues so we can be the home for creators. But over the as we are serving creators, we realized the need and the significance of our creative and marketing agency, which is what we really prioritize now, where we are serving brands and businesses of all sizes all across the country and helping them specifically with storytelling and how to create an impact online by creating short form content that will really resonate with your audience. We see a lot of brands, everyone needs to be on socials right now, and a lot of folks don't know how to do it authentically and in a way that can build trust with your brand. And so we've been working with the creators for, you know, tens of thousands of creators for over 10 years. So we've really figured out how to, you know, collaborate in unison and in trust with the creators and how that can resonate online and help brands tell their stories. So that's what we're really focused in on now. But we still have our space, we still have our membership, but we're really focused on growing our agency and helping brands all around the. Specifically here in Philadelphia, but all around the country to tell Their story online.

Bonnie Ghosh (5:20)

You talked a little bit about how recphily it specifically allows companies, brands, clients that you represent connect with Gen Z and millennial audiences. How specifically, if you could talk a little bit strategy wise, have you been able to kind of facilitate that?

Dave Silver (5:40)

Yeah. So as a millennial, myself, my co founder, millennial, ourself, our whole staff, millennials and now Gen Z's as well, we are who we're serving for. So we kind of understand the Internet and we kind of grew up with the Internet and you know, from our decade of doing brand work and working with content creators, we've kind of seen what works. And you know, I'll probably say it a few times throughout this, this talk, but it's really all about authenticity online. It's really about just showing up as yourself. Because the younger demographic, I think more than ever before, can like really call bullshit on what's going on online. They know a sales campaign, they know an they see one and they know when a brand is or when a brand is really aligned with a creator. And there's authenticity in this campaign. So we're really focused on finding that perfect match between whether they're influencers or they're creators or they're just spokespeople for brands and making sure that for the young people, it really resonates. Specifically.

Bonnie Ghosh (6:43)

Dylan, Matt, I know the music industry has shifted quite a bit from when you first became a musician. First, I understand you initially went into law and then became a musician between the time that you began your career and now the creative world. Artists, the way in which they disseminate their content has shifted quite a bit. If you could talk a little bit about that and what you've done differently now, given all of the various platforms, than how it was when you first started out.

Matt Quinn (7:24)

Yeah, I mean, when we first started out, you know, we were sort of like one of the first bands to be to find success through like Spotify playlisting or essentially Spotify being a tool for discovery for music. Whereas before you had itunes, that was sort of like you still had to have billboards and cabs with leading you to itunes. Whereas now you have the app is also trying to proactively show you new music. So we were sort of one of the original, I think, success stories of sort of like Spotify discovery, but then quickly shifted to things like TikTok and obviously Instagram and things like that. But you know, when we first started, like there was, it wasn't cool to sort of, at least in a sort of musical sense, to like Constantly promote yourself. And there's this sort of fine line between the sort of mystery behind the art and the artist and, you know, sort of shameless self promotion. And I think really during our career, that's like, completely shifted to where it's like, it really feels like it's pretty impossible unless you're promoting yourself consistently across some of these platforms, you're just going to be forgotten because there's so much new music being uploaded all the time. So I think the shift has really been, like, leaning in and trying to find, like, he said, like, authentic ways that, you know, because originally it was like TikTok dances and it's like, like, I'm. I'm not going to, like, twerk on, you know, the folk song, whatever it is. So. But then, you know, like, you know, like, I've. I had a friend, I remember sitting with Noah Khan, who's had, like, huge success across TikTok, and sitting with him, like, during the pandemic, and he was really leaning into that and being able to watch, you know, what happened with him and his music. You know, he. He's a person that really leaned into TikTok. You do see, like, all right, if there's a way to do this authentically, then you kind of have to lean in. So I would say throughout our career, we've sort of, like, resisted and then been forced to, like, to really take part in it.

Bonnie Ghosh (9:39)

What are some social hacks that you've discovered along the way?

Matt Quinn (9:43)

You mean, like, what are some things we do? I mean, I think for me, it's really just been about, like, I like to sit and play guitar, like, that's what I. And write songs. And so it's like, all right, if I can just plop the camera up and look like I'm in my living room and just play a song, really, and take portions of that. That, for me, is what's worked. You know, we've done the, like, and we still do, like, the, like, go to a park and it always just feels contrived. I think, like, the less. And I think things react in terms of things that have gone viral for us, you know, better. When it is authentic to you, it does feel like someone's been let into your living room or something that you actually would do. And then, yeah, to me, yeah, that's what's been most successful. But I really think it depends and depends on the. The product and the person you're racing.

Dave Silver (10:32)

I just. What you just recently did with the band, you guys popped up on Frankfurt, and that was everywhere, you know, every. You know, I wasn't, unfortunately, there, but I felt like I was there. And that felt like a perfect viral moment. That's, like, authentic to you. It's like we're just going to go do our thing on a local down the street, you know, and see how that resonates online.

Matt Quinn (10:51)

Yeah, that. And that's the thing. That's a trend right now, right? That's following a trend of, like, there are artists that have just been kind of like popping up places, and we were like, hey, we would love to do that. And so, yeah, like, stuff like that, I think it's finding the trend, but then finding one that's like, oh, that's authentic. That's something we could do and wouldn't look ridiculous doing. So. Yeah, it's not easy, but I think.

Bonnie Ghosh (11:14)

But going back to the point that Dave was talking about, about the concept of the audience being able to call bullshit, how do you cut through that?

Dave Silver (11:29)

I think it starts with the connection that you have. So for us, we do a lot of campaigns where we're kind of pairing a creator with a brand. And so it's really easy to just go find the person with the most followers online and be like, hey, I have an opportunity for you. Here's a brand. We're making this happen, versus, first and foremost, really understanding what the brand's objectives are, and to a core, understand who they're trying to reach and then understand that exact person they're trying to reach and then go find the creator that embodies that completely and not move forward with the campaign until that creator says, yes, I identify as that person that you're looking for. And I actually really respect and. Or enjoy or would enjoy if I had an opportunity to learn more about this brand. So that from the very beginning, there's a lot of trust that's gained at the foundation of a campaign when you're able to align the creator that you're pairing with, the brand understands kind of why this is happening and that you have for us, an agency, an agency that really gets it. There's a lot of agencies that may not get that they may not be a part of culture. They might have never been this age to understand it, and they're just trying to check off boxes when they're doing it. So that's our advantage of just being a part of this generation that really resonates online, and I think that just ripples through the Internet and for people to understand how genuine is this or not?

Bonnie Ghosh (12:51)

The same question regarding strategies like your Rec, Philly helps artists, creators get their brand out into the general world. What are like some specific strategies and approaches that you've seen work.

Dave Silver (13:05)

So for us, when it comes to working with the creator themselves, you know, at Rec, we really provide the guardrails. You know, we're not anyone's manager or anyone's exclusive agent. At Rec, we provide the tracks so you can build your own train and get going. So we provide the space. There's a built in community of a thousand plus creators. We have those trainings and those, those networking events and those educational events, but it's really all on you. And my co founder Will wrote one of the books that we teach to the creators, which is called Uncommon Sense. And that's all about what does it look like to build a brand, create an audience, engage with that audience and ultimately monetize that audience. But it first starts with I am this creator. Now if you're at Rec, you have the resources to create and experiment at a more discounted rate. And you don't have to go all in on cameras and microphones when you're not really sure. And, and then you have the opportunity to just create. You try things, throw things against the wall to see what sticks. And so that's what we really encourage our members to do, is use those resources in front of you and then go find your first hundred fans, go find the first hundred people that are really going to resonate with your product, your service, your music, your offering and just go all in on them and the rest will then come to you.

Bonnie Ghosh (14:28)

I love there's a story regarding Silver Lining that you actually released it back in 2013. Yeah. But it wasn't until later that it really gained traction. Do you think that part of that is because of the digital landscape that we're living in right now? And if you could give us a little bit of your insight regarding how that particular song took off in 2017 versus 2013.

Matt Quinn (14:56)

Yeah, I think, you know, you need with anything, I guess, but especially with music like I've been, you know, I've been working on, I guess, trying to be a successful artist for like a decade before I ever actually had any success. And I, even the song, I kind of use that as proof, right? Like I, I had the song, I, I thought the song was great and I would play it out, you know, around here in Philly, I'd play it maybe as far as like Boston. I was going to school up there and I don't know, it was mostly my friends and they would Five people would clap and that was pretty much it. But you know, you need that spark and it's really hard to get that. You know, you talk about like your first hundred fans. Like I kind of always tell people like the hardest show that we to ever sell out is like, you know, we call it like the 250 cap, which is like a bar, you know, that's also a venue, like a Johnny Brenda's or something like that. You know, now we've, we sold out Madison Square Garden. But I think it's way harder coming from Nothing to sell 250 tickets. Because once you're at that point, once you have that initial spark, it's all intuitive. It's like, all right, I've got this, right? I've got my, I've got my. These people, this is what they want. Let's make them an album. Let's, let's do this, let's shoot a video, whatever it is. But yeah, I don't know how you get that spark. Obviously for us it was a little bit of luck and yeah, Spotify obviously being the right place at the right time. If I knew exactly how to sort of like stir that pot, I would have done it much sooner. But I think there's a little bit of luck involved and then obviously the hard work. But I think that beginning part is the hardest part.

Josh Christensen (16:38)

We'll be right back after a quick break.

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Bonnie Ghosh (17:13)

When we're talking about all of the various different things that you do in terms of getting your art out there, in terms of marketing it right? It's almost as if your band is a brand now and you're treating it as such and marketing it. Does that water down the creative at all?

Matt Quinn (17:34)

I think it can. And I think that's like the fear with leaning too hard into some of the like TikTok and being too like trend focused or something like that. But I think for us it's like once I, at least for me, once I go into the like trying to write new music, it's like you're as much as you possibly can trying to just block it out and just make something that you love or that like someone told me Once, which I, like, think about all the time. It's like, just make something that you want to show your friends. You know, it's like that always should be the thing where it's like the people that might make fun of you if it's lame, like, you should make something cool for them and everything else will sort of work itself out.

Bonnie Ghosh (18:14)

So, Dave, if you were to have Matt Quinn knock on your door right now and say, I'd love for you to represent us as artists, to be able to get our creative vision out there, we. What would be your strategy?

Dave Silver (18:31)

Come on, knock him out. If they were already where they are.

Bonnie Ghosh (18:39)

No, like, as an indie band.

Dave Silver (18:41)

Yeah.

Bonnie Ghosh (18:42)

Was just starting out.

Dave Silver (18:43)

Yeah. I would, you know, it's all about, first and foremost, hitting the stages. And I would want us to be seeing what the. If you don't. If you have no fan base, we need to work on artist development and all of that. But I would want to know where your true fans are currently and try to understand how they found you in the first place and really try to diagnose where you're getting your first. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Fans that are not your friends or family, because there's a lot of truth in the first fan that is not your friend or your family, because there's probably a lot more of them online. Right? There's endless amounts of people online and if you found one person, you can probably find a lot of those people. So I would want to see where it's at. We'd play a small room. Back when I was booking shows, when we first started the company, we were at Legendary Dobbs or the Arts Girl Garage or Voltage Lounge, and I'd want to play on 100 cap room to see where that's at and then be able to own all of the platforms that we can. Right. We want to own all of our SMS data. So any single one fan that's coming in the room, we want their phone number, we want to make sure they're on our email list. It's great to have the TikTok and the Instagram followers, but we saw what happens overnight when TikTok decides that you're not going to have this platform tomorrow, and then where is your audience? So we're talking about building of your core fans and owning all of their data and owning all of your content online. And we're going to engage like we're their best friends and we're going to make sure that one friend becomes a super one, that one fan becomes a super fan, and we are going to continue doubling down on that until that super fandom grows. So we can sell out that 100 person room and we're not going to go into another room otherwise. And the last piece of advice, I think, and this is similar for brands, as with artists, I think collaboration is one of the most, is the strongest thing that you could be doing right now. And I don't say that in like a Kumbaya way, like, yo, we should collaborate and hang out or whatever. It's like, I want you to come on one of my songs and I want you to be at one of my shows and I want to make content together. Because what you look for is a collaborative partner that shares a similar audience as you. And you just feed off of each other's audiences. And every single time you do a collaboration, you're growing your audience to a targeted group of people. And so I would be every week looking for new collaborations, whether it's music, whether it's brand partnerships, always looking to collab, to grow your base based on other people. So that's where I'd go.

Matt Quinn (21:10)

I mean, I'm coming, I'm knocking, that's it.

Bonnie Ghosh (21:14)

When you've talked a little bit about, let's talk about data and analytics. You have a digital resource that you have available to the Rec Philly clients. What specific data and analytics do you harness as metrics for your clients?

Dave Silver (21:36)

So there's a few things there. So we have a resource, it's called the Resource and it is essentially a digital newsletter that is focused on providing value to potential clients. And what's important about that, and I'd advise for folks in a similar, really in any lane, is we get to become thought leaders of an industry, right? So for us, we become thought leaders on content marketing or the creative economy and we push that to all of the data that we own. So now all of our contacts, all of our leads, all of our creators, they all can become subscribed to a piece of content on a weekly or monthly basis that we are now positioning as the thought leaders. And if you're not our clients yet, hopefully when we share the right piece of information, you're going to be like, hey, I want to learn more about these guys. They seem like they really know what they're talking about. I want to trust them with my future work. Whether you're a brand or you're a creator, et cetera. So that's our digital resource that we have so we can be positioned as thought leaders when it comes to data and analytics. I Find it interesting. I think there's definitely have been a turn on social media where followers and likes were the number one thing when social media was really on the scene. It's like who's got the followers, who's got the likes of. And now specifically with TikTok. But I think it's similar with YouTube shorts and reels. You could have no followers and get no likes, but can have a string of content that reaches millions of people because you're just hitting the right pocket and you can keep doing that. So what really matters is engagement. What really matters is what conversations are happening in the comments. Who's sharing your content, who's saving your content. Those are the metrics that we really try to call out to our partners. The likes are great, the followers are great, but those can be purchased. You can't fake a good conversation in the comments and you can't fake people sharing it around on their own feeds, sharing it with their own friends and seeing it go further than your own followers. So that's what we really try to click into.

Bonnie Ghosh (23:37)

Probably ask the same question to you in terms of metrics, in terms of what are your. Especially at the level of success that you've had, what are you metrics and that you look at right now from an artist perspective.

Matt Quinn (23:52)

Yeah, I would say like anybody else online, it's hard not to look at like the likes and the comments and stuff like that. But I do agree, like, I think it can be frustrating sometimes. But then, you know, at least for us, like in part because the way the music business is set up, right, like we're best case scenario, our song is streaming however many times of stream, but that's paying us like half a cent and then plus our record deal, like we're not really making any money there. So for us it's about getting people to actually show up to our concerts where we make the vast majority of our money. So really what we want to see is that engagement, those people being like, you know, we're asking like who's coming to the show, you know, who we're trying to get. People, you know, if only, I don't know, it only gets, let's say our biggest post gets like 70,000 likes or something like that. But you know, if, if we can't get however many people to the show, like we need people who are actually engaged and, and who are like, we know are a part of the community because they show up for us, they buy merch, they, you know, and it's like you can kind of Tell because there's people who come back, right. It's like they're, they're posting on, they're, they're commenting on everything. Yeah, you're just trying to like capture real fans and not sort of passive Internet users. And I think for us it's like yeah, I guess really comments for me is probably the thing that I find to be like the most valuable. Like you said, like conversational stuff happening in there is always really good. But yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I really think it can be a mirage and I've seen it with a lot of artists where it's like yeah, maybe you're purchasing followers or purchasing likes or whatever that is. But like you know, if that's not converting into, at least in the music world, if that's not converting into people showing up to your concerts, then it's going to be a tough business I think.

Dave Silver (25:46)

And just to follow on that, I think it's important to whatever whether it's a song or a campaign that there's metrics that we're tracking beyond social media mainly like how are we getting people off social media and how do we get them either is it website visits, is it purchases, is it registrations? But to just keep it at social media level I think is doing everyone justice. And I think it's important to really understand what the call to action is beyond socials. Make sure that link is available and make sure definitely when it comes to agency work that the client and the agency is really aligned and like what is success here? Ideally if we can dream up a scenario where we roll this whole thing out, like where are we driving people to, what action are they taking? And hopefully it's beyond like we just hope we get a lot of comments on social. Hopefully it's that they're landing on a landing page or they're doing some sort of action after that.

Bonnie Ghosh (26:44)

I remember seeing a comment that you had made once about it being less profitable to fill a 10,000 seat arena than a 200 person venue. And there were that there were lessons regard that you have learned now regarding the music industry having your own label. Talk a little bit regarding exactly what those lessons are from the business perspective.

Matt Quinn (27:16)

I think it depends on the 10,000 seat venue but I think like I was saying before, like when I first got into it like one of the things that was happening which I don't think happens as much is like 360 record deals where you know they would own a piece of your touring, a piece of your merch et CETERA et cetera. So I do think ownership in general is. Is obviously massive, and I think artists are getting much smarter to that. And I think labels are sort of coming back down in some ways towards that. You know, the initial model, the sort of major label model is like, that a lot of your favorite artists are. Are on is like, well, you know, we'll give you an advance of hopefully a big sum of money, and in return you make 20 cents on the dollar after we make the money back, which is insane. You know, you're never going to make your money back. For one thing. 90. I think it's like 97% of artists don't recoup or something like that. So your money's never coming back, and then you're never making any money. And then, you know, I could go on and on and on about that, but basically, you want to own your art if you can. And I think holding off on taking money only if you really, really need it, because there's huge strings attached in music. And then when it comes to, you know, venue selection, like, it really depends. Like, there are venues like Radio City Music hall, for example, in New York City, where it's really a vanity play. Like, there's not, you know, your 6,000 seats that you're selling, but they've got all these fees attached and you'll make more money. I think that might have been what I was referring to. Like, you know, we had an offer for. I'm probably going to get, like, go missing for this, but, you know, we had an offer to play somewhere else or Radio City, and this is something that artists do all the time. And it's like, well, Radio City is really cool. It's a good look. They know that. So your splits are terrible. Like, you know, you might lose money doing the production, selling 3,000 more tickets than if you go play on a rooftop, you know, down the street in New York City. It's not as cool of a play, but you're going to make more money. So I think for us, it's always just been like, is the vanity worth it? Is the. And sometimes it is like, you know, there are places. Madison Square Garden is another place. Like, that's not the best deal in New York City in terms of that number of tickets, but it's putting a flag in the moon, so to speak. Like, maybe it's worth it for your company to do stuff like that. I think there's a lot of interesting decisions you have to make along the way. But, yeah, I would say the number one thing is like being sort of as fiercely independent as you can for as long as you can.

Bonnie Ghosh (29:45)

Are there brands that either of you look to as lessons in terms of their strategies that you're like, they are killing it Artists brands, I think in.

Dave Silver (29:56)

The community, locally, I definitely look to a lot of the creators that we work with that I really admire how they're able to have a full time living collaborating with brands and organizations in unique ways. I saw someone in the audience some of friends with I think does really well. Deb Deborah debonair. She's really fantastic in collaborating with organizations. Christian Crosby, another one of our close friends and members of the organization, works with the Sixers, works with Comcast. He work, you know, out in Europe with Liv Golf. Like always finding things that are really like just it's the reason why I respect them is because they're back to that word authentic. It is so them to do those types of projects and those types of campaigns. It doesn't surprise me when these things pop up and it brings me a lot of joy because they bring their full personality to it and you see their content resonating really well for the purpose that it's there for. So those are the first things that come to mind.

Bonnie Ghosh (30:52)

So what's next for Mount Joy?

Matt Quinn (30:55)

Well, we're putting out an album, Shameless Self Promotion. We're putting out an album May 30th and we'll be on tour. We'll be back here in Philadelphia, two shows at the man in September. So hopefully see some of you guys there.

Bonnie Ghosh (31:10)

Matt Quinn and Dave Silver, thank you both for joining us and thank you to all of our panelists this morning.

Dave Silver (31:16)

Thank you.

Josh Christensen (31:20)

That's all for this episode of from the Ground Up. Our producers are Blake Odom and Avery Miles, with help from Sam Gabauer and Hawa Ottori. Editing by Matt Toder. Mix and sound design by Nicholas Torres. If you haven't already, subscribe to all Ink podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.