Canada’s massive military buildup: Part 1

Summary

Front Burner (CBC) — "Canada’s massive military buildup: Part 1" (July 2, 2026)

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Episode Overview

The episode explores Canada’s unprecedented surge in military spending under Prime Minister Mark Carney. With defense expenditures soaring toward historic highs—not seen in decades or peacetime—the government is also seeking to transform Canada into a major global arms producer and exporter. Through on-the-ground reporting at the country’s largest arms expo (CANSEC), interviews with industry insiders, defense critics, protesters, and officials, the show unpacks the motivations for this radical shift, the consequences for Canadian society, and the tensions between defense investment and social spending.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mark Carney’s Military Spending Revolution

• Historic Announcement: Prime Minister Carney, fulfilling campaign promises, commits over $500 billion in defense investment over the next decade. (01:10)

• A Massive Leap: Carney’s plan pushes Canada to meet and exceed NATO targets:

  • Achieved 2% of GDP on defense, a threshold never before met by Canada. (06:45)
  • New NATO target by 2035: 5% of GDP for defense and security.
  • Carney promises to hit 5%, signaling an “astronomical” shift. (07:01)

• Domestic Industry Focus: Launch of the Defence Industrial Strategy aims for:

  • Creation of 120,000+ new defense jobs.
  • 240% growth in Canadian defense industry revenues.
  • 70% of procurement to be Canadian-made. (07:59, 17:52)

Quote:
"Over the next decade, Canada will unleash a half a trillion dollars… in defense and defense-related investment from submarines."
— Mark Carney [01:10]

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2. On the Ground at CANSEC: The Arms Industry in Overdrive

• Expo Atmosphere: Immogen Burchard describes CANSEC as part trade show, part “schmooze fest,” filled with military displays, guns, armored vehicles, missile systems, and robot dogs. (02:15–06:03)
• Attendees: Troops, military brass, bankers, foreign officials, and ex-politicians now connected to the defense sector—reflecting an “industry gold rush.” (02:35, 08:43, 09:20)

Quote:
"I've never seen an industry in the last 40 years so energized. It's like the gold rush era… everyone seems to be involved in defense in some way or wants to get involved."
— David Puglaze, Ottawa Citizen (09:20)

• Industry Excitement: “Buzz” in the room due to government commitments and new opportunities. Rooms packed; “a great place to be.” (08:13)

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3. The Debate: Social Costs and Public Backlash

• Protests Outside: Demonstrators highlight links between Canadian-made weapons and global civilian deaths, particularly in Gaza, and decry the government’s “militarism.”
  • Notable Protesters:
    • Dr. Kavita Algoo, physician, criticizes the diversion of funds from social programs like Pharmacare, arguing "all that money is going into militarism to destroy the future for all of us." (11:09)
    • Tony McQuail, former NDP leadership candidate and farmer, argues resources used for war preparations are “incredibly destructive” for society and the environment. (12:09)

Quote:
"In words he [Carney] positions it a certain way. But in reality it is stripping our own social, health, community resources to go into building a future of militarism."
— Dr. Kavita Algoo [11:09]

• Sacrifices & Trade-Offs:
  • The 5% target means $150 billion annually—more than all annual payments for elderly, EI, and childcare combined. (13:41)
  • Carney is vague about which social programs will face cuts, only admitting “sacrifice” is needed and hard choices await. (14:10–14:24)
  • Experts warn: Only ways to fund are to cut spending, raise taxes, or increase debt. (15:01)

Quote:
"You're not going to be getting the same level of social services. Do you still support spending all that money on defense?"
— David Puglaze, on public opinion polling [15:56]

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4. Industry Voices: National Security, Jobs, and the “Changed World”

• Industry Rationale: Executives justify spending based on:

  • A “more dangerous world” due to Russian aggression and threats in the Arctic. (18:27–19:25)
  • The need for economic independence and future-proofing Canadian manufacturing. (17:38–17:52)
  • Quote:
    "We have now tied our national security with economic independence… so that Canada becomes less of a defence consumer and more of a contributing partner."
    — Glenn Lynch, Velatis Aerospace [17:52]

• Specific Threats: Russia (Arctic focus), changing Arctic landscape, and deterrence are cited most. (18:47–19:25)

• US Relationship: Carney also identifies the US as a threat to Canadian sovereignty, especially under Donald Trump. (22:36)

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5. Dissenting Perspectives: Arms Proliferation and the Peace Argument

• Skeptics:
  • Kelsey Gallagher (Project Plowshares) warns arms proliferation increases likelihood, severity, and longevity of conflict. (20:55–21:26)
  • Protesters argue militarism does not bring peace, and may spiral into more violence globally. (21:30–21:53)
  • Quote:
    "War and war industries have not made the world more peaceful. I'm sorry, they have not."
    — Tony McQuail [21:30]

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6. Looking Ahead

• Open Questions: Details on how Canada will pay for increased defense spending remain unclear.
• Public Debate: Real debate over trade-offs—higher taxes, debt, or social program cuts—is just beginning.
• Next Episode Teaser:
  • Exploration of Canada’s effort to disentangle its defense from the US.
  • Examination of the risks posed by a massive increase in Canadian arms exports. (23:15–23:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mark Carney, on the new reality:
  "It's becoming more divided and dangerous." [22:28]

• Protester chant outside CANSEC:
  "Shut down CANSEC. Shut down CANSEC." [09:57]

• Robert Hewson (Saab), on Russia:
  "We’re at war… a sovereign European country has been invaded. People are dying there every single day… The threat is not simply restricted to the battlefront in Ukraine… The nation deserves and I think demands defence." [19:25]

• Kelsey Gallagher (Project Plowshares), on arms proliferation:
  "Arms proliferation makes conflict more likely to occur. It increases the severity of conflict, it typically makes conflict last longer. All of these negative aspects typically being bought by civilians." [21:04]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Carney’s historic military spending announcement: [01:02–01:24]
• Inside CANSEC, arms expo culture: [02:15–06:03]
• NATO targets and 5% goal: [06:16–07:59]
• Industry “gold rush” & economic focus: [08:13–09:20]
• Protests outside the venue: [09:55–11:44]
• Trade-offs and social spending cuts: [13:41–15:56]
• Industry view on Canadian threats & defense justification: [17:31–19:25]
• Skeptics on peace and arms proliferation: [20:41–21:53]
• Carney on US as a threat: [22:36–22:47]
• Next episode preview: Canadian arms exports and US-Canada defense ties: [23:06–23:20]

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Episode Tone & Style

• Imogen Burchard's reporting is vivid and immersive, juxtaposing the “giddiness” inside the arms expo with the tension and moral urgency of protest voices outside.
• Industry and official voices are pragmatic and bullish, often using economic or deterrence arguments.
• Critics and protesters speak passionately and bluntly about the social trade-offs and ethical risks.

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For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

This episode sets up a critical debate about what kind of country Canada wants to be in a rapidly changing world: a heavily armed, militarily self-reliant state with a booming arms industry, or a country wrestling with the costs—financial, ethical, and social—of prioritizing national security over social spending.

Tune in next episode for deeper dives into Canada’s military-industrial ties to the US, and the global impact of a booming Canadian arms export sector.

Transcript

[Jamie Poisson]

All your favorite CBC podcasts are now available on YouTube. The best in award winning true crime investigations, hilarious comedies, vibrant pop culture conversations and even more audio series are all available on CBC Podcasts YouTube channel. You'll also find exclusive video, first episodes, YouTube shorts and behind the scenes content from our hosts and producers that you can't find anywhere else. So if YouTube is your go to source for podcasts, just search CBC podcasts and hit subscribe and and you'll never miss the latest update.

[David Ridgeon]

This is a CBC podcast.

[Jamie Poisson]

Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson.

[Mark Carney]

Our world is changing. It's becoming more divided and dangerous.

[Jamie Poisson]

Mark Carney ran for office, promising to spend whole, whole lot more on the Canadian military.

[Mark Carney]

And that's why today I'm announcing my plan to rebuild, reinvest and rearm.

[Jamie Poisson]

Since being elected, he's been making good on that promise, pouring billions of dollars into defense. Carney says he's just getting started.

[Mark Carney]

Over the next decade, Canada will unleash a half a trillion dollars, I'll repeat, a half a trillion dollars in defense and defense related investment from submarines.

[Jamie Poisson]

What he's proposing is an astronomical amount of military spending, a level not seen in decades and definitely not in peacetime. And that's not all. He also wants Canada to produce a whole lot more weapons and military equipment to sell to our own military and to the rest of the world. It could be a radical expansion of both Canada's military might and, and its military industry. And so over the next two episodes, we wanted to take a closer look at the significance of this shift, what's motivating it, how could it play out, and what might be sacrificed along the way. Our senior producer, Imogen Burchard was at Canada's biggest arms expo in Ottawa last month. And she'll take it from.

[Imogen Burchard]

As Prime Minister, Mark Carney walked out on stage at CANSEC this year. Thank you very much.

[Glenn Lynch]

Wow.

[Imogen Burchard]

The crowd jumped to their feet.

[Mark Carney]

Funny, I'm the first Canadian Prime Minister to speak at cansec. I don't know why the other ones didn't come. This is fantastic.

[Imogen Burchard]

I can tell you that because I saw a recording of it. I missed the speech itself because pretty much every taxi, Uber and Lyft in the greater Ottawa area was booked up by people going to this giant defense sector trade show. Traffic was so bumper to bumper as we approached the convention center that my cab driver was able to pull out his phone and show me one of his music videos on YouTube. A perimeter was set up far back from the venue. And after I made my way through Security. I found myself in what felt like a parking lot. But instead of cars there were LAVs, light armored vehicles which look like tanks on wheels and MRAPs, short for vehicles that are mine resistant Ambush protected. Inside the room was packed with suits and soldiers. There were Canadian troops dressed in cadpat that digitized camo pattern and Canadian naval officers in their whites. I saw members of the Mexican, Colombian and German militaries, representatives from the national bank of Canada, from Scotiabank, academics from the University of Alberta and from Ottawa U. Former Conservative Defence Minister Peter McKay was there, former Liberal Defence Minister Harjit Sajan, former conservative leader Aaron o', Toole, former president of the Treasury Board Tony Clement, all of whom now have some connection to the defense industry. It felt like a schmooze fest as much as a trade show, but with a lot more weapons of war.

[David Ridgeon]

So this is a sharpshooter version of the C25, so a little more accurized

[Imogen Burchard]

so it gives a marksman a gun that's going to be more precise than a standard military offering. There were guns of course, the gun boots were really popular.

[David Ridgeon]

They love is a good stand for

[Imogen Burchard]

photo ops for sure. I saw what looked like rocket launchers,

[Robert Hewson]

the Carl Gustaf weapons system which is a reloadable shoulder fired system. So you can see there are various different ammunition loads depending on the.

[Imogen Burchard]

One of those ammunition loads was an ADM, an area defense munition that shoots 1,100 flechettes, basically tiny darts. Another, according to the company's website releases 800 steel ball bearings as an evenly distributed highly lethal cloud.

[Robert Hewson]

This is a joint strike missile.

[Imogen Burchard]

There was a full on missile with a looping video beside it of various targets, exploding debris and smoke filling the screen.

[Robert Hewson]

So Canada is currently looking at purchasing

[Imogen Burchard]

this for their F35.

[Robert Hewson]

So it's.

[Imogen Burchard]

There were drones of all different sizes.

[Glenn Lynch]

Many of our drones have dual use capabilities. They can actually have drop mechanisms to carry effectors.

[Imogen Burchard]

Sorry, what's an effector?

[Glenn Lynch]

Effector is literally something that goes boom.

[Imogen Burchard]

And I saw at least two different makes of robot dogs.

[David Ridgeon]

So that thing is a Boston Dynamics spot robot. So it's kind of on the cutting edge of quadruped technology. They're really one of the pioneers. I think we're very much and if you've seen it at the show here, we're very much moving to our robots, fighting their robots and trying to keep people out of it. And so for me I'm not. I guess that's a good thing. We're keeping people safe and what happens when the robots one side wins, do we just say, okay, your robots are taking over? So it's a weird thing that I never thought we would have to think of, but, you know, here we are in 2026.

[Imogen Burchard]

And here in 2026 was Mark Carney, the first Canadian Prime Minister to speak among the rocket launchers and robot dogs at cansec.

[Mark Carney]

Over the past year, Canada's new government has worked at an unprecedented pace and scale. We've enacted the largest increase in defense investment in Canadian history.

[Imogen Burchard]

Last summer, Carney promised he'd put 2% of Canada's GDP towards defence spending. This is a promise that all NATO members make, but that Canada had never actually kept before. After all, 2% of GDP is a lot of money for a government to spend. Back in 2014, Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper had been reluctant to sign onto the target at all. And Justin Trudeau had reportedly said it was a target that Canada would never hit. But Carney did it. In less than a year, Canada has

[Mark Carney]

achieved NATO's 2% GDP defence expenditure target, half a decade ahead of the original schedule. I have to say, for the first time since the fall of the Berlin Wall, I don't know if that's an accomplishment or an admission, but we're there.

[Imogen Burchard]

That leap in spending alone is probably enough to explain the warm reception Carney received that morning. But 2%, 2% was the old target. Now NATO members have a new one, to spend 5% of GDP on defense and security by 2035. And Carney says he's going to hit that too. This is an astonishing leap in spending. But the significance of this commitment isn't just how much Carney plans to spend on defense. It's also where he wants to spend it. Right here in Canada, he says. Right here in this room. Back in February, Carney unveiled his Defence Industrial Strategy. It aims to dramatically expand the Canadian defence industry, create 120,000, 25,000 Canadian defence jobs, and grow Canadian defence industry revenues by 240%. All this probably explains why CANSEC was so packed this year.

[Mark Carney]

It's frickin huge. They're just, it's like, it's huge. I've never seen one this big before and I've been coming since 2010. It's busy, it's full, it's crowded, and it's just a great place to be right now.

[Imogen Burchard]

These aren't the most expressive guys you'll ever meet, and they are mostly guys. But on the convention hall floor, there was the giddiness of a gold rush.

[Mark Carney]

I was here last year, and you could shoot a cannon through and not hit anything. It's packed this year. You know, it's new. It's a new client relationship. It's a new relationship with our own government. There's a lot of buzz, right? There's a 5% target, so there's a lot of excitement and hype, and there's plenty of opportunities and capabilities to build on. So, yeah, a lot of activity and appetite.

[David Ridgeon]

It's very surreal for most of us that have been here, you know, before it was cool before, there's this rush before Prime Minister Carney. And so you can see, or if you'd been here, you would see. There's a lot of different people. There's investors, there's bankers, there's young people, you know, all kinds of people that you've never seen. This was, you know, for old, shady white people in suits. And that's really changed. It's exciting for me. I'm not sure what it means for the world in general, but. But, yeah, it's very interesting to be here, for sure.

[Imogen Burchard]

David Puglaze has been a defense reporter with the Ottawa Citizen for decades now, and he says the whole industry feels like this.

[David Puglaze]

I've never seen an industry in the last 40 years so energized. It's like the Gold rush era, where you've got all these companies starting to form and everyone seems to be involved in defense in some way or wants to get involved. You have all these generals now, mo, Moving from, you know, in their retirement, now they're on boards of directors. So it's, you know, there's a real energy there thinking that there's going to be a lot of tax dollars spent over the coming years.

[Imogen Burchard]

Outside the venue, there was a different vibe.

[David Ridgeon]

Shut down Kansas. Shut down Kansas.

[Imogen Burchard]

On day two of the show, dozens of protesters showed up. They were confined to a pretty small area near one of the entrances, flanked on either side by cops with riot shields. They had flags and held up homemade signs, including one with a long list of the names of children killed in Gaza. Many of the largest arms manufacturers in the world had boots inside, and their wares are used by militaries, including the idf. What do we say to war profiteers?

[David Ridgeon]

Save the race.

[Imogen Burchard]

Some of the protesters would heckle the occasional attendee who would walk by. Though, honestly, there were other ways into the venue. So I got the sense that the ones who were passing by got a little thrill from the attention.

[Dr. Kavita Algoo]

I'm a physician, and it's been really horrible, you know, over These last years watching all of our colleagues being murdered with weapons that are traded right here at kensek.

[Imogen Burchard]

This is Dr. Kavita Algoo. She talked to me about the killing of health care workers in Gaza, Lebanon and Sudan. And as you might expect, she didn't share the attendees enthusiasm for Carney's defense spending or his defense industrial strategy.

[Dr. Kavita Algoo]

And knowing that our government is leaning into militarism, removing funds from Pharmacare, you know, Mark Carney said. Well, he didn't say. But they have not renewed Pharmacare which was supposed to expand. All of that money is going into militarism to destroy the future for all of us. So I think in words he positions it a certain way. But in reality it is stripping our own social, health, community resources to go into building a future of militarism.

[Tony McQuail]

Hi, I'm Tony McQuail. I am a semi retired farmer from the Lucknow, Ontario area over by Lake Huron. So I've driven about eight hours to get here for this protest of the Cansec weapons of war and destruction display.

[Imogen Burchard]

You might recognize Tony McQuayle if you followed the most recent NDP leadership race. He was the candidate in the big straw hat.

[Tony McQuail]

Both the preparation for war, that is the manufacture of the weapons and the amount of human resources, material resources and economic resources that go into that are incredibly destructive for society. Society, they divert huge amounts of resources from things like education, health care. So just the preparation of these things are incredibly destructive. But then when they're used, they're even more incredibly destructive of the environment, of society.

[Imogen Burchard]

This idea that all this money that Carney's government wants to spend on defense diverts money that could be spent elsewhere isn't just the domain of these protesters. Here's Mark Carney talking to Christiane Amanpour on CNN last summer when the 5% spending target was being negotiated by NATO leaders.

[Mark Carney]

So how realistic is it in a

[David Ridgeon]

time when you already have economic difficulties? So do some, you know, Europe and others to.

[Mark Carney]

Actually you're at 2%, but now they want 3.5% and eventually 5%. Isn't that just going to cripple your budgets? Well, it's important, these are important questions and it's important to be clear what we are potentially and I think likely to all agree tomorrow, which is, and let's take the 5% of, of GDP figure, which is a big, huge, big number. How much is it actually for you? 5% of our GDP would be about $150 billion. I mean that's a lot. It's A lot of. It's a lot of numbers per year. That's a lot. Of course it's. So it means that that's something you can't give to your own citizens. Well, okay, so let's.

[Imogen Burchard]

The 5% figure is made up of 2, 3.5% on core military spending, things like warships and ammo, and 1.5% is for defense related infrastructure like ports and airstrips in the north. I want to put that $150 billion figure in perspective here. It's more than Canada spent last year on elderly benefits, EI benefits and the Canada childcare benefit combined. So far, Carney has been pretty vague on what any spending trade offs might look like. He's referred to sacrifice.

[Mark Carney]

None of these goals will come easily or quickly. All will require ambition, collaboration and yes, on occasion, sacrifice.

[Imogen Burchard]

And he's also suggested that it's something we'll deal with later.

[Mark Carney]

If we are moving to the higher and higher levels of defense spending because that's necessary, then we will have to make considerations about what less the federal government can do in certain cases and how and how we're going to pay for it. Those trade offs, I'm going to give you false precision around this, but those trade offs happen towards the end of the decade, into the next decade and we will be much, much better informed. There's going to be a very clear and open conversation about that based on facts and based on what Canadians want.

[Imogen Burchard]

But it's true, as Dr. Algou mentioned, that we're already seeing the government pull back spending in areas like Pharmacare. Right now, public opinion polling suggests a lot of Canadians do want more money to be spent on defence, that they support what Carney's doing here. But that clear and open conversation based on facts that Carney promised still feels a long way off. The Parliamentary Budget Office has pointed out that there's not a lot of detail on how the government intends to reach the spending goal. NATO wants to see clear, concrete, credible plans from all member nations when they meet in Turkey next week. The C.D. howe Institute put out a report saying this would make defense one of the largest components of federal spending and called it a sea change not seen for generations. The report finds that unless the plan is to massively increase government debt, Carney's going to have to cut social spending, raise taxes, or they suggest some combo of the two. Defense reporter David Puglaze Again, it's one

[David Puglaze]

thing to be, you know, you tell a pollster, oh yes, I support a strong Canadian forces, but if the question was, okay, well, you're not going to be getting the same level of social services. Do you still support spending, you know, all that money on defense? And you might get a different answer if you formated your question like that. There's going to have to be some way to pay for all this. And you know, it'll be interesting to see what Canadians put up with.

[Imogen Burchard]

Jacqueline Furlan Smith, a 40 year old

[David Ridgeon]

former Canadian military trainer, moves to Costa

[Glenn Lynch]

Rica to follow her dreams.

[David Ridgeon]

But in the summer of 2021, vanishes without a trace.

[Imogen Burchard]

How can a woman just go missing and us put out all that effort to find her and she's still missing?

[David Ridgeon]

I'm David Ridgeon and this is someone

[Imogen Burchard]

knows something Season 10, the Jacqueline Furlan Smith Case.

[David Ridgeon]

Listen ad free on Amazon Music.

[Mark Carney]

The truth is, over the last few decades, Canada has neither spent enough on our defence nor invested enough in our defense industries. We've relied too heavily on our geography and others to protect us. This has created vulnerabilities that we can no longer afford and dependencies that we can no longer sustain.

[Glenn Lynch]

Being realistic, Canada, we have not properly supported our armed forces personnel for three decades.

[Imogen Burchard]

This is Glenn Lynch. He's the CEO of the drone company Velatis Aerospace.

[Glenn Lynch]

Now we have a government that said we are going to step up, we are going to meet our commitments. However, we now have tied together

[Tony McQuail]

our

[Glenn Lynch]

national security with economic independence. So the mission of trying to bring 70% of defence procurement back into Canada so that Canada becomes less of a defence consumer and more of a contributing partner. I mean, the simple reality, as difficult as it is, and I have a son serving in the military, weapons are a part of modern warfare and the Canadian military needs their weapons, hopefully never to have to use them. But for the incredible show of force, so we do.

[Imogen Burchard]

When I talked to people at CANSEC about why they thought this increase in defense spending was so important, I heard a lot about how the world had

[Mark Carney]

changed because we're just in a very

[Glenn Lynch]

different world than we were just 24 months ago.

[Mark Carney]

Yeah, it's not that the world is changing. The world has changed as we we know it. I think the geopolitical climate in the world has shifted quite significantly, not just in the last year, but in the last.

[Imogen Burchard]

When asked for specific threats, people would talk about Canada's Arctic and China and definitely Russia.

[Mark Carney]

Canada is the second largest country in the world. We have a very unfriendly neighbor up north. With the melting of ice, we will need to protect our borders north more than ever from a purely Militaristic view,

[David Ridgeon]

I wouldn't say we're under too much

[Imogen Burchard]

threat, but deterrence is a big thing. So no one spoke more forcefully of the Russian threat than Robert Hewson. He's a communications director with Saab, the Swedish company that makes the Gripen fighter jet, the shoulder fired Carl Gustav and much more.

[Robert Hewson]

We're at war. I mean, there is a direct threat on Canada's doorstep. Europe has been invaded. A sovereign European country has been invaded and people are dying there every single day. So collectively, I'm afraid we are at war. And the threat is not simply restricted to the battlefront in Ukraine. It's a small globe. And if you look at where Canada is in the high north in the Arctic, you can be fooled by looking at the map. If you look at a flat map there, things seem very far away. But if you look at a globe, things are actually a lot closer. So none of these weapons are here for Canada to go and attack anybody. They are all here for the defence and security of Canada if and when you are attacked and you need to go. And unfortunately we can no longer say that that's not going to happen. We see right now that there is aggression by the powerful against the weak. And the nation deserves and I think demands defence.

[Imogen Burchard]

I just want to take a moment here to point out that of course everyone wants to keep Canada safe, but not everyone agrees that more defence spending and a stronger defense industry accomplishes that.

[David Ridgeon]

Given the kind of current climate, one arguing for restraint will typically be kind of dismissed as a bit naive and, you know, would be told that, you know, listen, the world is a more dangerous neighborhood than it's been before and so forth.

[Imogen Burchard]

This is Kelsey Gallagher, he's a senior researcher at Project Plowshares, an institute that does research and advocacy on issues related to peace, security and disarmament.

[David Ridgeon]

And I understand those perspectives, but I do not think it's naive to point out the very real threats of simply pushing arms flows into overdrive. Arms proliferation makes conflict more likely to occur. It increases the severity of conflict, it typically makes conflict last longer. All of these negative aspects typically being bought by civilians.

[Imogen Burchard]

And this is all the protesters I talked to put this perspective more forcefully.

[Tony McQuail]

Fucking insane. And I will just say insane in case you don't want the fucking insane or nothing. So it's insane. It's crazy. War. War and war industries have not made the world more peaceful. I'm sorry, they have not. They get used and then they build the hatred and the anger and the hurt which then comes back and just cycles around and spirals around.

[Dr. Kavita Algoo]

I mean, the world is a more dangerous place because we're making it so we are creating an arms race, like many countries are doing this. And so, I mean, I don't think, I don't think it's naive.

[Imogen Burchard]

When Mark Carney talks about threats to Canada, he does talk about Russia, especially in relation to Canada's north. He also speaks vaguely about how our world is changing.

[Mark Carney]

It's becoming more divided and dangerous.

[Imogen Burchard]

But especially when he was on the campaign trail, Carney highlighted another threat.

[Mark Carney]

President Trump wants to break us so America can own us. We will not let that happen.

[Imogen Burchard]

The United States, if you look at

[Tony McQuail]

Canada, it would be cherished as a 51st state.

[Imogen Burchard]

They don't pay their share of military.

[Tony McQuail]

In NATO, they pay very little for military.

[Imogen Burchard]

They're not protected at all.

[Tony McQuail]

And the reason is they think we're

[Imogen Burchard]

going to protect them. On the next episode, the challenge of disentangling our defense from our neighbor.

[David Puglaze]

You have a Canadian military leadership that is so ingrained with their US counterparts, so connected, so integrated, and the risks

[Imogen Burchard]

of boosting our domestic defence industry by selling Canadian arms abroad.

[David Ridgeon]

This would be the most aggressive increase in Canadian arms exports in recent history.

[Jamie Poisson]

President Trump celebrated the attack by releasing this video which shows the moment a boat was blown up in the southern Caribbean. Eleven on board were killed.

[Imogen Burchard]

Is this the vehicle that I spot? That's all for today. I'm Imogen Burchard. And tomorrow I'll be back with the second part of our two part documentary on Mark Carney's plans for Canada's defence industry. For more cbc podcasts, go to cbc ca podcasts.