Marie Philippe Bouchard (2:46)

Thank you for having me here.

Jamie (2:48)

So, as I mentioned, you're almost a year now into your role as president of CBC Radio Canada, and I understand that you have been speaking with Canadians across the country during that time, and we. What have people been telling you about the cbc? What do they say about the cbc?

Marie Philippe Bouchard (3:02)

Oh, many, many things. Because CBC has been around. CBC and Kazuo Canada have been around for decades. And so there's a long experience with our services. There's a lot of expectations and some satisfaction and some things they would like us to do better. So in terms of concrete examples, what you have just quoted is one of the things that I've heard people feeling some points of view are not as represented as they would want them to be. And especially from a, I would say, type of experience or context that maybe we don't cover as much. Specifically, I was in the west on a number of occasions and heard from Canadians from the agricultural sector, the oil sector, saying they would like to hear more about what matters to them, what's happening in their environment. And conversely, I was in the north recently, Just recently, I had the incredible opportunity to visit Iqaluit and Yellowknife, where our services are so fundamental for all sorts of reasons, but we're often the only link between remote communities and what's going on in the world and what's going on in their world. And that's the tough area to cover because it's so vast and there's relationship with the services of CBC that are really vital. But at the same time, there's so many needs in terms of language preservations, for instance, for the Inuit and for other indigenous languages that we broadcast in. So there's a lot that people would want us to be more invested in. And I think we have to be in a really active listening mode. I think that's the best way for us to evolve and adjust and create value for Canadians.

Jamie (5:06)

Well, I just want to pick up then on that point. You just made, you know, one prominent criticism of this corporation, whether earned or not, is that the CBC has this left or liberal leaning bias. You hear this often in the opinion pages of the National Post or from conservatives in this country. We heard it from a listener off the top of the show. Recently, former host of the show Canada Tonight, Travis Dhanraj left the CBC in quite a dramatic fashion. His lawyer has said that he was discouraged from bringing conservative voices on his. Joe, I know that the CBC denies this. Travis recently had Pierre Poliev on his podcast and where Poliev said that the CBC has a, quote, ideological objective that they carry out every day. Do you think that the CBC is carrying out an ideological objective? And if so, what is that?

Marie Philippe Bouchard (5:58)

I don't believe that there is an ideology being pushed by cbc. CBC and Kaizo Canada are governed by very strict journalistic standards and practices. Practices. I'm very familiar with those practices. I've been in the organization in the past. I believe that what may be perceived as unequal or uneven or insufficient may be a function of the fact that certain subjects are not as covered as they could be or should be. That's often a question of geography. It's also in the interest of if you are pushing for a point of view, you can say other people are not reflecting my point of view to the degree that you would like. And that's fair. That's a conversation we can have that doesn't make the public broadcaster biased. It just isn't.

Jamie (7:11)

You, of course, have this new plan out. One of the reasons why we're talking this new vision for the CBC and I was reading through the 10 page document that lays out a lot of it, a lot of your revision here, and I counted nine different mentions about the importance of reflecting a wide range of differing perspectives, quote, enlightened with a wide range of perspectives that the CBC should bring together and quote, foster connections across communities, perspectives and generations, quote, supporting talent and different perspectives reflect and broker a wide range of opinions and perspectives. And I just seems like it's obviously quite important to you because you threaded it through the entire document. And just if not an ideological objective, what are you talking about in these nine mentions in particular?

Marie Philippe Bouchard (8:04)

I'm talking about the basic craft of public service and we didn't invent it. It is working in other countries and environments and it is about being inclusive. And the people you serve need to feel that they're being reflected in the content that you bring to them, not only to themselves, but to the other Canadians, so that you can broker some sort of understanding of what are the subject matters that are to Canadians today. And this is a very vast land with many languages being spoken, two official languages, many indigenous languages. There's a lot of divides potentially. And so having a means of communication that belongs to the public, and where everybody can feel that they are included is really important. It's not just a theory. It's something we need to practice. And to the extent that we don't succeed today in convincing everybody that that's what we're doing, this is what we need to work on.

Jamie (9:11)

I just want to be clear and specific here. Just what perspectives do you think are missing?

Marie Philippe Bouchard (9:17)

Well, we can certainly say that from our history and evolution, because we had stations in larger urban centers, we've tended to remain in those centers. Even though we have reporters that go out elsewhere, they don't necessarily live in more remote communities or even not that remote community, sometimes the suburbs. And I think one of the things that we're trying to do, and we've started doing this as early as January when we talked about the extension of local service, is to actually establish teams of reporters and reporters in areas where we are not present today. That has two objectives. The first one is to actually give the promise or deliver on the promise of local service to more Canadians. And local service today is making content available on the platforms that they watch. So it's not necessarily establishing a whole station with a transmitter. It's making content and making content that is reflective. And the other objective that it will meet is that by being in more locations, we will cover more types of stories, more types of subjects, and be in touch and in contact with maybe experts and ordinary Canadians and more in tune with what is important to them, which they may not feel reflected today.

Jamie (10:43)

I was looking this week at Palera's polling annual report on how Canadians feel about news organizations and cbc. It still had more Conservatives than not that trusted it. But significantly, the trust gap between Liberals and Conservatives was the largest when it came to the CBC compared to other outlets like CTV or Global, for example, lots more Liberals, for example, trusted than Conservatives. Do I just. What does that tell you? How do you explain that?

Marie Philippe Bouchard (11:13)

Well, I'd like to say I take comfort in the fact that most Canadians trust CBC razoo Canada to start with.

Jamie (11:19)

Yes, highly trust it overall.

Marie Philippe Bouchard (11:22)

That's really important. That is really, really important. And this is not something I take lightly. Trust is earned every day and you can lose it if you're not careful to be true to the trust that you've built. So this is really job one is to maintain that trust. And to the extent that there are some segments of the population, whether or not they're Conservatives, Liberals, ndp, other parties, or whether it's because of their situation or where they live, or if there's a level of trust that is weakening. We have to look at it and listen. It starts by listening what is missing, what is it that you're not finding or what is the relationship that you have. And sometimes honestly it is that they are not finding us simply because they're no longer listening to traditional media and they've got most of their time spent on global platforms which don't make necessarily Canadian content easily discoverable. So we also have to tackle that issue right.

Jamie (12:35)

I guess just to try and explain that trust gap between CBC and other Canadian news outlets like CTV and global, when we were trying to think about the solution to that. Are you thinking about things beyond putting people in more places, like maybe more opinion coverage on the network or something like that? What are you thinking about there?

Marie Philippe Bouchard (12:59)

Well, I mean, there's all sorts of ways to make people feel reflected and included. Starts by being in the communities where they are. It also means including a more diverse set of points of view, if that's possible. And it's also about being constant about it, not just during an election period or during a specific period of time. It's just to have that reliable approach to a diversity of points of view. And we have the opportunity to do that in many platforms. And so recognizing that not all Canadians use all of our platforms, we want to have a meaningful connection with them on at least one or two platforms, be it traditional radio, audio, tv, digital, written form. We have all of those options available. But they have to find what they need in terms of media consumption.

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Jamie (15:19)

In this document laying out the CBC's vision and strategy, there's mention of quote Stopping or transforming some activities to better meet priorities. And I just would like to pull that apart with you first. What would you like to stop doing? What would you like the CDC to stop doing?

Marie Philippe Bouchard (15:36)

Oh, anything that's inefficient. That's a general statement. But any organization, I mean, today there's all sorts of red tape, in any case, large organizations. So we need to look at that. We need to look at also how we can leverage new opportunities that come with technology. We've been good at it, to tell you the truth. I mean, since we started our operations in 1936, there's been lots and lots of technological advancements. And we've often been at the forefront of introducing them with responsibility, with a sense of innovation, and at the same time, reliability. And so I think this is an era where technology is evolving faster than we can even grasp. And so there's lots of opportunity to transform. And that will mean leaving some processes and some ways of doing things behind, but not before the Canadian audiences. The Canadian public is ready to give up on certain ways of consumption. I mean, I don't think there's an and to radio as we know it because it's so essential to so many parts of the country. And in times of crisis, it's often the only lifeline that there is for people to get their vital information. And so. And radio is the oldest technology that we actually operate. So that means we need to evolve in the way we use it, but we need to be in tune with what Canadians need.

Jamie (17:12)

One critique that I hear fairly often is that the CBC should not be in the entertainment business when there are so many richer, bigger players out there. Right? Why still make drama, comedy, reality tv?

Marie Philippe Bouchard (17:26)

Who else makes as much as we do? And if we stop doing that, would there still be an entertainment industry that is typically Canadian, especially in the English language? I have to say there are really two markets here. In the French language, we have a very vital entertainment environment that is very popular and that is sustained not only just by Razzo Canada, but by other private media and by a host of independent production companies. There are very, very talented creators and producers in Canada. They need an outlet. They need a touch point with Canadians. And if the public broadcaster was not in that environment, was not in this business, where else would they go? Would that not be a loss collectively?

Jamie (18:22)

Let me put to you one idea from Chris Waddell, who was the head of Carleton's journalism school. He says why not fund the National Film Board instead and let the CBC focus on news, foreign and investigative Reporting and informing citizens. Let the CBC not spread itself too thin.

Marie Philippe Bouchard (18:42)

You know, establishing a relationship of trust with people comes by having many points of connection with them. There is such a thing as news fatigue. There is such a thing as people need to have a different type of interaction with their media. And sometimes it's light and sometimes it's serious, but that's part of being there for them at all times. So I don't think it's stretching us thin. It's just the way we do it needs to take into consideration the weight that we put on the various aspects of our mandate. And to put it but to very simply, this is our mandate from the people of Canada. This is the mandate that's in the act that we have to inform, enlighten and entertain. So until such time as Parliament changes that mandate, I don't see how we could simply ignore part of it. And I also would caution against the risks of our relationship with Canadians becoming even smaller.

Jamie (19:50)

How do you respond to the critique that just simply not enough people are watching and engaging with these shows to warrant the investment?

Marie Philippe Bouchard (19:58)

Because we don't measure the connections we establish with viewers in a wholesome way. And that's why people tend to say, some people tend to say that there's some relatively low ratings on television. Well, that's not how people consume content today. They consume content on demand and they have access to that content in many, many forms on many platforms, unfortunately. And I don't want to get into too technical aspects here, but the Canadian industry is very weak on measuring engagement with content. We tend to have measurements that are siloed and it's difficult to access information about how successful the content has been over a period of time on many platforms. We do measure the time spent by Canadians on our content across platform, and that doesn't at all show that it's not popular.

Jamie (20:58)

CBC is currently going to court to defend its refusal to release the GEM subscriber numbers. This news came after the Information Commissioner ordered the CBC to release them. And given what you just said, why not release them?

Marie Philippe Bouchard (21:15)

Well, that's a good question. And the number itself of people who are actually authenticated, that is they've created an account on GEM, is a fairly large number. But most of these people don't pay to use the service. It's free to them and they are our registered users. That's not the number that was asked of us. The number that was asked of us was the people who actually pay for a subscription. Now, that information is recognized by the crtc, which Is the tribunal that's charged with regulating the whole communication industry as being sensitive commercial information. The Commissioner for Access to Information had a different interpretation. And we are simply seeking the court's opinion, the federal court's opinion, so that we can have a clearer ruling on how we conduct business. But because we're dependent on, yes, the appropriations. So the funds that the government votes for us, we're also asked and expected to generate commercial revenue. And that commercial revenue is negotiated with private firms on private terms in the market terms, I want to say market terms. And so the conduct of the market is driven by those rules of what is confidential, what is not. It's really important if you're doing this job to be able to play according to the market rules. And so we just need an interpretation by the federal court on the scope of what are the criteria to apply to this type of information, which is sensitive. And it is part of negotiations for carriage for a variety of other deals that are made by digital platforms with distributors in many contexts.

Jamie (23:20)

Can you see how the CBC is different here from other private enterprises? This is a corporation that gets public money. And people might hear this and think that this is just a basic level of transparency from an institution that gets tax dollars.

Marie Philippe Bouchard (23:37)

Yeah, it's all about balance, right? I mean, and if we were only financed and we could deliver on all of our missions with only public funds, then that wouldn't be an issue. But we are a hybrid type business. We are partly funded by the public for many, many good reasons and many public remits. And we are also expected to generate commercial revenue in the market. And so we have to be able to conduct ourselves sometimes. It also protects our counterparts that some information is maintained on a confidential basis. And so this interpretation, the commissioner is important and may have impacts that are more wide ranging than the simple issue at play here. So that's why we think that it's important to have that debate. And then whatever comes out of that will obviously comply. But it is a balance. It is a balance between those two realities, and it is set in the Act. The Access to Information act does contain an exception for commercial relationships that public bodies have. And so it's not a specific issue to CBC AIDS of Canada.

Jamie (24:58)

Had the Liberal government not pulled off an unprecedented political turnaround in the last election, the conversation that we would be having about the CBC right now could have been dramatically different, given that Pierre Poliev campaigned on defunding the CBC and turning CBC headquarters into housing. Most minority governments, they last about two years, which, you know, Gives you about a year and a half before this could be front and center again. During the election campaign, Mark Carney said that he wanted to see the CBC's funding enshrined in law, something that would require an amendment to the Broadcasting act and Parliament's approval. Are you optimistic that this government is actually going to move to do this anytime soon? Do you see any signs that they are moving to do this? This.

Marie Philippe Bouchard (25:43)

I believe that that was their. I mean, that was the intent signaled by the previous minister in the green paper, so Pascal Saintonge. That was clearly what the work that they had been doing was leading to. It found itself in the platform during the election. And I expect that if given time, this is the direction that they would want to take. Now, that will take a debate in Parliament. This is a minority government. They'll have to have agreement, at least beyond the leading party. And so I think it's a really important conversation and I welcome it. The mandate and the financing model of the corporation has not been reviewed for ages and it's lagged behind its peers. We're now at $33 per capita in Canada for a service in two official languages, in eight Indigenous languages, whereas in other countries it's double that for a single language country. So we're really doing the best we can with the resources that were awarded. But there's a place for a conversation about what type of public broadcast or what type of public service Canadians want. And the discussion around mandate and financing model is a proper conversation. So beyond the intent of the government, there's also a wider public discussion that needs to happen.

Jamie (27:23)

I know. After the election, the CBC was asked to cut up to 15% of its budget as part of a federal efficiency review. I believe it amounted to something like 98 million in the first year, rising to 198 million by year three. The Journal de Mairial reports that CDC will propose what to cut and make a final decision in 2026, which is just a couple months away. What will you cut?

Marie Philippe Bouchard (27:49)

Well, it's premature to talk about what would be the subject of budget cuts, because, as you said, we put forward a number of impacts for the various targets of appropriation reduction. It's over three years, so that's the first thing that needs to be understood. It's over three years. It's not right away in 2026. It's a gradual. At least the model now, the decisions have not been made and have not been communicated, at least to the various crown corporations that are subject to this review. And so it's you know, depending on what the target is, the choices will be different. And depending the speed at which we need to do it, the choices will be different. So it's too early for me to speculate on that.

Jamie (28:49)

One final question for you. I know you have to go. Your predecessor, Catherine Tate, faced a lot of scrutiny when she testified in front of a government committee about her compensation and wouldn't say whether she would take a bonus or not. And I'm wondering if you think there is an accountability mechanism missing as president of the cbc. In other words, who is your boss who measures your performance, salary and bonus? And are they the same people who, if you do a bad job, for example, can terminate you?

Marie Philippe Bouchard (29:21)

That's a really good question. And it's a kind of a hybrid model for cbc. And there was, in fact, in the green paper from a previous minister, a proposal to change some of those aspects. So currently, I would say, if you ask me who's my boss, I would say the board of directors. And that's how I conduct myself. I consider the board of directors of the CBC to be my ultimate accountability level. I'm accountable to the public in general, but they are the ones who are more scrutinizing what I do and how I do it. How my pay scale is established is by the government, because the Broadcasting act still creates the power of the government to name the CEO of CBC Ratio Canada. The proposal from the minister last spring was that the board be charged with hiring and evaluating the CEO. And I think that would be a good evolution. But right now that's not the model.

Jamie (30:25)

Right. I mean, it's a bit confusing, actually, when I was trying to understand it, because it works very differently from how Most presidents or CEOs are governed. Right. And I guess have you gotten any clarity from the government on if they're going to implement that recommendation for more direct and streamlined accountability? Because I imagine that that clarity would actually make it easier for you to do your job and be accountable for your performance.

Marie Philippe Bouchard (30:53)

I think being accountable is a state of mind and the processes that support that can help or they can hinder I feel accountable. I've done all my career in public service, and that's what I think about when I wake up in the morning is how can I support Canadians in a more efficient way or a better way in terms of. Of the government? Right now, I'm not sure I've had discussions with the minister about the idea, but it's really their prerogative to put it in the act. So I'm not going to lobby for or against. It's an idea that it exists in other jurisdictions. But to be honest, in Canada, most of the crown corporations, the agencies, are under the same model where there's an independent board of directors, but the CEO is chosen, are named by the government or by the minister, depending on the agency. So it's not uncommon in Canada. But for public service media, a more independent model with the CEO being accountable to the board and named by the board would, I think, be a progress.

Jamie (32:07)

Okay. On that note, Marie Philippe Bouchard, thank you very much for coming by.

Marie Philippe Bouchard (32:11)

Thank you, Jamie.

Jamie (32:12)

Really appreciate it. Thank you very much. Much. All right. That is all for today. Thanks, everybody. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

Marie Philippe Bouchard (32:37)

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