Could the Alto high speed rail plan be derailed?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Could the Alto High Speed Rail Plan Be Derailed?" – Front Burner (CBC), August 10, 2026

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Overview

In this episode of Front Burner, guest host Jason Markusoff interviews Robert Benzie, Queen’s Park Bureau Chief of the Toronto Star, on the prospects and growing opposition to the "Aalto" high speed rail project. The $60–90 billion (possibly much more) plan aims to connect Quebec City and Toronto via Montreal and Ottawa, slashing travel times and promising economic and environmental benefits. Decades of false starts, steep costs, farmer resistance, and political wrangling—especially between the Ontario and federal governments—are threatening to derail the long-promised project.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Long History of High Speed Rail in Canada

• Decades of Proposals, No Results: Canada has long discussed high-speed rail, modeled on European and Asian success stories, but execution has stalled.
  • "We've been talking about high speed rail for generations in Canada... there’s not a lot to show for it." – Jason Markusoff (01:03)
• Repeated Studies, Few Commitments: Past efforts, including the “turbo train” in the 1960s–80s, led to little substantive progress. High-speed proposals resurface every decade.
  • "Research has established that 80% of all travel takes place between cities up to 500 miles apart... Rail facilities offer a potential solution..." – Archival Narration (03:52)

Cost and Feasibility

• Huge Projected Cost: Official estimates range from $60–90 billion, but European projects have gone 78% over budget on average, so the real cost could hit $160 billion or more.
  • "It sounds great on paper, but... for alto... $60 and $90 billion... could be $160 billion." – Robert Benzie (02:16)
• Demand Uncertainty: Is there enough market for such a line? Canadian rail culture is less developed than Europe/Asia, and existing trains often lack high occupancy.
• Environmental & Market Shifts: Future shifts in travel, fuel costs, and vehicle electrification could impact the rail’s relevance by its projected 2041 finish date.
  • "More cars are going to be electric by the time 2041 rolls around. So maybe greenhouse gas from cars is not going to be the issue that it is now..." – Robert Benzie (25:59)

The New "Aalto" Project

• Scope: Quebec City → Montreal (with stops in Laval and Trois-Rivières) → Ottawa → Toronto, route not finalized.
• Federal Pitch: A fully electric line at 300km/h, cutting Toronto-Montreal travel to three hours, with major claims for economic growth, urban connectivity, and green credentials.
  • "The largest infrastructure project in Canadian history, a high speed rail network between Quebec City and Toronto..." – Jason Markusoff (06:19)
• Route Controversy: Debates continue about whether to route through Ottawa or stick along the 401 corridor (the country's busiest transportation corridor).

Grassroots Pushback

• Farmer & Rural Concerns: The proposed corridor's impact on farmland provokes strong opposition, especially in Quebec where influential dairy and farming lobbies wield power.
  • "They're understandably concerned about them being cut off from parts of their own land... Quebec dairy farmers... are very, very influential in that province." – Robert Benzie (09:43)
• Consultation Critique: Community outreach has been criticized as insufficient, fueling organized resistance.
  • "NIMBYism is a thing... I'm not sure that this has necessarily been sold to the residents along the route as well as it could have been." – Robert Benzie (11:32)
• Land Needs Misunderstood: Official corridor maps cover up to 10km, but only 60m needed for tracks—a disconnect stoking anxiety.

Political Crossfire

• Federal Conservatives ("Boondoggle"): Pierre Poilievre and Conservatives vow to kill the project, calling it wasteful and lacking business justification.
  • "[We] oppose the $90 billion Liberal Alto train... will cancel this $90 billion boondoggle altogether." – Pierre Poilievre (13:00)
• Provincial Dynamics/Tit-for-Tat:
  • Ontario supported Aalto in exchange for possible expansion of Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport (for jets, not just turboprops).
  • When the feds paused airport expansion after public backlash (87% opposed in consultation), Eastern Ontario Tories suddenly raised "unanswered questions" about Aalto—interpreted as political retaliation.
  • "It’s totally a tit for tat... That was a salvo from Premier Ford’s office." – Robert Benzie (20:28)
• Quebec Nationalists ("Boondoggle," Threat to Participation): Bloc Québécois and Parti Québécois claim Aalto is a federalist gesture and wasteful; PQ pledges to withdraw Quebec’s participation and links it to their separatist agenda.
  • "Could this be a political football in any secession referendum? Yeah, it could be." – Robert Benzie (16:41)
• Liberals' Balancing Act: Prime Minister Mark Carney (who succeeded Trudeau) supports Aalto while trying to manage opposition and coalition with Ford.

Economic Arguments

• Job Creation: Federal government touts 50,000 jobs during construction, plus ongoing spinoffs in tourism, industry, and clean tech.
• Skepticism Remains: Political opponents express doubts about ROI and whether sufficient demand exists, especially compared to pipeline projects supported by Conservatives.

The Future of the Project

• Long Rollout, Shifting Conditions: Even under best-case scenarios, completion is set for 2041. Politics, economics, and technology could dramatically shift by then.
  • "Even the most optimistic Liberal thinks... the liberals will still be in power, you know, 15 years from now." – Robert Benzie (25:51)
• Momentum vs. Risk: For now, momentum and political capital have kept Aalto moving, but entrenched opposition—and the prospect of Conservative governments—could threaten, delay, or kill the plan.
  • "The train is leaving the station on this thing now, and they've committed a lot of resources and a lot of political capital to it. So I don't think it's going to die anytime soon." – Robert Benzie (26:38)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Heritage of Overstudying:
  "It's this long Canadian heritage of these high speed rail reports." — Jason Markusoff (04:25)
• On Political Timing:
  "It was the 11th hour of the 15th year in government for Wynne's Liberals at that time..." — Robert Benzie (05:07)
• On Farmer Resistance:
  "They're pretty organized grassroots campaigns against the alto." — Robert Benzie (09:43)
• On Tit-for-Tat Politics:
  "Because two cabinet ministers and the government House leader were signatories to that statement, that tells you that was a salvo from Premier Ford's office." — Robert Benzie (20:28)
• On Mega-Project Imagination:
  "It’s one of these mega projects that catches the imagination of the public... So I don’t think that Carney’s necessarily going to kill it anytime soon." — Robert Benzie (24:13)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:03 — Intro to decades of high-speed rail discussions/failures
• 02:16 — Cost and overrun history; European comparisons
• 04:25 — Historical overview; turbo train legacy
• 06:19 — 2025 pitch for Aalto; Trudeau/Carney transition
• 09:43 — Farmer/rural resistance discussed
• 11:32 — Critique of consultation & handling of local concerns
• 12:57-13:17 — Pierre Poilievre's "boondoggle" comments
• 16:41 — Quebec opposition/connection to separatist politics
• 17:52 — Ontario and airport expansion as bargaining chip
• 20:28 — Analysis of Ford’s pivot; political tit-for-tat explained
• 24:13 — Projection for the project’s future, political risks
• 25:59 — Speculation on long-term feasibility amid evolving technologies

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Tone & Language

The discussion is informed but conversational, mixing historical perspective, current politics, and wry skepticism. Benzie and Markusoff joke about clichés ("train leaving the station") and highlight irony in the endless cycles of Canadian rail proposals. There’s a sense of cautious optimism—it could be nation-building, if not derailed by age-old opposition and new political gamesmanship.

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Summary by Section

• History: Many proposals, little action; last serious investment was nearly a decade ago and abandoned with a change of government.
• Current Plan: Huge, with bold promises but higher-than-advertised risks and uncertainties.
• Obstacles: Rural/farmer resistance, political self-interest, intergovernmental bargaining, and deep skepticism about costs and demand.
• Outlook: Highly uncertain; proceeding for now but could stall or die, especially if opposition parties come to power or costs skyrocket further.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode:
This episode offers a rich look at why Canada’s high-speed rail dream has been so elusive, details the tantalizing promise and complex reality of the current Alto project, and lays bare how deeply projects like this are entwined with politics, rural interests, and shifting economic sky-lines. If you want to understand if the train is finally leaving the station — or just circling the yard once again — this is essential listening.

Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Robert Benzie]

AT&T business Wireless connecting changes everything.

[Jason Markusoff]

This is a CBC podcast. Hey, it's Jason Marcusoff filling in for Jamie Poisson.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Imagine a train that brings our lives and cities closer together. A train that creates wealth in Canada's most important, important economic corridor, Alto. The Toronto Quebec City high speed train is the solution we need for our country's economy.

[Jason Markusoff]

We've been talking about high speed rail for generations in Canada, and while there's been a lot of studies and political promises, there's not a lot to show for it. But finally, plans are taking shape for Aalto, which could get you from Toronto to Montreal in just three hours, except well before construction begins. It's facing a lot of pushback. Farmers in Ontario and Quebec are worried about how the proposed route will affect their land. A growing chorus of politicians from the opposition party Quebecois to the Federal Conservatives are pushing back on its massive price tag. And now Doug Ford's Progressive Conservatives in Ontario are also questioning the project. With all this tension mounting, could political disagreement derail this long awaited train line? My guest today is Robert Benzie, Queen's Park Bureau Chief with the Toronto Star. Hey, Rob.

[Robert Benzie]

Hi, Jason.

[Jason Markusoff]

So before Rob, we get to the current tensions around the Alto project, let's just zoom out for a second. There's been so many false starts and false promises about high speed rail going back many decades. What's happened? Or maybe the better question is why has nothing happened?

[Robert Benzie]

Well, I mean, it's one of these things that everybody thinks is a great idea until they start to look at how daunting a task it is. I mean, we've seen most Canadians who've traveled to Europe or China have been on high speed rail in those countries and come back home and said, why can't we have this here? You know, you can go in the TGV in France or in the AVI in Spain and get to places hundreds of kilometers away very quickly without having to get on an airplane. And I think the idea of a Quebec City to Windsor corridor of high speed rail has been something that's been talked about since we were children and we're not anymore, Jason. So it's One of these ideas that it sounds great on paper, but then when you start to talk about how to build it and the price tag for alto, which is 1,000 km from Quebec City to Montreal to Ottawa to Toronto is about. They say it ranges between 60 and 90 billion dollars. But we know from European high speed rail that those projects tend to be 78% over budget on average. That's a EU study on that. Now that doesn't mean they're not worth doing. It's just a good idea to remember that's how much the price tag can be. So therefore this thing actually could cost $160 billion. So that starts to really add up and you have to look at does Canada have the market for it? Are there enough people traveling from Quebec City to Toronto, from Ottawa to Toronto, from Montreal to Ottawa to make it worthwhile?

[Jason Markusoff]

So we've been talking about this, as you say, for decades upon decades. There was a sort of turbo train in the 60s until the 80s that didn't last.

[Robert Benzie]

Turbo is designed to move people quickly and efficiently between large population centers. Cities like Toronto and Montreal, both with more than 2 million people and with just 300 miles separated. Research has established that 80% of all travel takes place between cities up to 500 miles apart. With the probability in the near future of one great super city stretching from Chicago to New York or Windsor to Montreal. Rail facilities offer a potential solution to mass transportation problems.

[Jason Markusoff]

Reports, you know, the 70s, 84, 1995, 2002. It's this long Canadian heritage of these high speed rail reports. And then we get pretty close in 2018 when the Ontario Liberals under Kathleen Wynne commit $11 billion for this high speed line between Toronto and London.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Today we're announcing that Ontario is moving ahead with preliminary design work and investing in a comprehensive environmental assessment for a high speed rail link to connect Toronto, Pearson Guelph, Kitchener Waterloo, London, Chatham and Windsor.

[Jason Markusoff]

Yeah, and then when Doug Ford came in later, he froze funding for it. Why?

[Robert Benzie]

Well, I mean it was the 11th hour of the 15th year in government for wins Liberals at that time, Jason. And it was, I mean, I think what they were hoping at the time was that it would help with the GTAs, the Greater Toronto area's housing crisis. Because we know from the European experience that you can have people who live hundreds of kilometers from their jobs and commute on high speed rail. My cousin for example, lives in Spain. He lives in Madrid, but he used to live in a town 300 km from his job and he would take the train every day. It was an hour, an hour commute. So that's like a lot of Canadians have an hour long commute on go trains or other transit here in Ontario or driving to work. So you could, it would change the settlement patterns. And I think that was what Wynne's government was thinking at the time, that people could live in London, Ontario and work in Toronto or live along the route and work in Toronto again. It was very late in their mandate and they were throwing anything at the wall to see what would stick and it didn't.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

So the best time to have built high speed rail is 40 years ago. The second best time is today. So that is, that is what we are, that's what we're going to do. And if you.

[Jason Markusoff]

It's funny political deathbed conversion.

[Robert Benzie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jason Markusoff]

In 2025, it was right before Justin Trudeau left as Prime Minister that the federal government announced that it was moving forward with Aalto. The largest infrastructure project in Canadian history, a high speed rail network between Quebec City and Toronto with 100% electric trains that will reach speeds of 300 km an hour. Do you remind us what the pitch has been?

[Robert Benzie]

Well, the pitch for Aalto, and you're right, it was literally one of the very last acts of February 2025 and the next month, Mark Carney succeeds Justin Trudeau as the Liberal leader and then as the Prime Minister. And then of course, Carney calls an election and wins in April. So the original pitch, and it's still on the table, is this. Quebec City to Toronto, a reliable, efficient,

[Jason Markusoff]

high speed rail network will be a game changer for Canadians, slashing travel times by half, getting you from Toronto to Montreal in three hours. It'll stimulate our economy, strengthen the bonds between cities and our two most populous provinces, and reduce costs for businesses.

[Robert Benzie]

Now it zigzags a little bit. They haven't finalized the route yet, but they're talking about going from Quebec City to Montreal, Laval, you know, suburb of Montreal, go to Ottawa, then down either through Peterborough or maybe Kingston, and then end up in Toronto. And they, again, they still haven't finalized it. And that's part of the problem. Premier Doug Ford, who has been a supporter of this publicly, but we'll get to the sort of tit for tat on that later. But he has said, why not have it just go along the 401, which would mean that it wouldn't go to Ottawa though. So that's a, that's a challenge. I mean, the 401 corridor, though, is the busiest transportation corridor in the country. So I Mean, it would make sense to have it run along there.

[Jason Markusoff]

And the other stop, I think, in Quebec would be Trois, between Quebec City and Montreal. You know, let's talk about one of the appeals of this has got to be. You know, I don't take it much, living in Alberta, of course.

[Robert Benzie]

Yeah.

[Jason Markusoff]

But the VIA Rail reliability right now is maybe one of the biggest screaming arguments for it. What's the problem with VIA Rail right now?

[Robert Benzie]

Well, I mean, VIA doesn't own the track that its cars go on, so, you know, freight has precedent. So that tends to mean that they have to be slower via. I think the top speed of the fastest VIA train is about 160 kilometers an hour, and they seldom get to that speed. So this would be twice as fast as that. And to your point, three hours Toronto tomorrow, Montreal on a train. Sounds terrific. Two hours to Ottawa from Toronto sounds terrific. But is there the audience for this? I mean, how many people are driving this every day? How many people are flying, you know, to Pearson or to Billy Bishop here in Toronto or from Montreal from Ottawa or from Quebec City every day? I, I don't know if it's $90 billion worth of, of a potential.

[Jason Markusoff]

So let's cut into some of the pushback against it. And it seems like it started or it's really been loudest with residents and smaller towns and villages and farmers along the, the corridor. What can you tell us about that reception?

[Robert Benzie]

Well, I mean, they're understandably concerned about them being cut off from parts of their own land. I mean, you've seen some farmers saying that the way that this is going to go, they could be, you know, 50 kilometers out of their way. They might have to detour, get from one part of their farm to another part of their farm. I guess it depends on how the bridges are and how all these other things are. It's going to be fenced off. So there's that. So it's just the rural concerns have been loud. And remember, in Quebec especially, the farmers are very powerful politically. There's a reason supply management, which only is 6% of Canadian agricultural, is such a huge hot topic. It's because of Quebec dairy farmers. They're very, very influential in that province, and therefore they're very influential across the. And I think that is a concern. Now, Stephen McKinnon, the federal transport Minister, has said, look, I know you're concerned about this, and you may not use this train, but your kids might use this train, your grandchildren might use this train. Jobs will be created to build this rail line. So there's all these other associated benefits I guess that the government is trying to sell to these rural communities. But it's a tough sell. And they're pretty organized grassroots campaigns against the alto.

[Jason Markusoff]

Yeah, when it's getting organized, when farmers groups are getting into it, that tends to be one of those pressure points. You know, I look at some of the consultations that they've been producing. So right now it's all in consultations now.

[Robert Benzie]

Yeah, it's.

[Jason Markusoff]

They put these big maps of the corridors and it's this 10 kilometer wide swath of purple like blob running through towns like Van Cleek Hill and Hawkesbury and, and Berthierville in Quebec. But they only need a 60 meter bandwidth of land. I understand. Have they been handling this well?

[Robert Benzie]

I'm not sure that they have. Now look, NIMBYism is a thing. It doesn't matter if you're in downtown Toronto or downtown Calgary or in rural Ontario, rural Quebec. People are always concerned about what's going on in their own backyard. Understandably. But I'm not sure that this has necessarily been sold to the residents along the route as well as it could have been. That's not to say that they won't buy in at some point, but there are always going to be people who don't want change of any kind. I mean when you see the uproar about this project, it makes you wonder how they ever got highways built in this country. Because you know they. The 401 cut through a lot of farmland between Montreal and Toronto when it was built.

[Jason Markusoff]

Now Aalto does say that they're going to present a narrower corridor, at least the Ottawa to Montreal segment and just the 60 meter wide corridor likely. And they also do say that they're going to promise compensation. We should clarify with a negotiated agreement that considers all financial impacts over time considering market value disturbance, business loss, impact on remaining property. But the politicians have latched on to what the farmers and rural residents are saying. In March we saw Conservative leader Pierre Poliev saying they should cancel this project, calling it a ridiculous pie in the sky Liberal spending initiative. What do you think is propelling his, his, his pushback on this?

[Robert Benzie]

Well, Mr. Poliev has called this a boondoggle.

[Jason Markusoff]

I am announcing today that conservatives oppose the $90 billion liberal alto train that we call on the Carney Liberals to cancel it. And I am confirming that a future concern Conservative government will cancel this $90 billion boondoggle altogether.

[Robert Benzie]

He's not wrong in the sense that it could be perceived as such. Just because the market, Is there a market for this? Is there a demand for this? I mean, it's not like VIA trains between Montreal and Toronto are sold out every single day and they're not running trains on the hour or anything like that. So I mean, maybe in Canada we don't have the tradition of rail travel that you see in places like Europe and even in China. I mean, I went on high speed trains in China and I was astounded at how quick they were. And now obviously in China, they don't have the same environmental assessments, they don't have the same duty to consult local residents because they just build things. And if you don't like it, too bad. So sad.

[Jason Markusoff]

Hear from business boosters the economic arguments. 50,000 jobs created during construction and more during when it's operational tourism revenue, gdp. Does, I mean, does that appeal to a Polyev conservative?

[Robert Benzie]

Yeah, you would think that it would on paper, but then I guess when you start to crunch the numbers, I mean, remember Mr. POV's party is in opposition, so their job is to oppose the Liberal government of the day. And this is a Justin Trudeau project. And it's easier for them to hammer against Mr. Trudeau, who they still wish was the Prime Minister or wish was the Liberal leader, because I think if you were, they would be in a lot better political shape. So I think there are national projects that cost billions and billions of dollars that the Conservatives do support. The pipelines, for example, in your neck of the woods. From your neck of the woods to the B.C. coast. Those kinds of things are something that they can support. I just think this one, the Tories maybe rightly don't feel that the business case has been made yet. A better help ad matching with my

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[Jason Markusoff]

In Quebec, there's, you know, we're increasingly seeing pushback to the Bloc Quebecois. Federally, provincially, the Party Quebecois has latched onto this. They've claimed that this is going to eventually cost $200 billion and they'd rather have money there. That's the party that's leading in the polls coming into the next election. What does it mean that the party Quebecois come swinging on this?

[Robert Benzie]

Well, that's another sort of spanner in the works because if the PQ win the election in October that we expect to be in October, they've said they won't participate. They think it's a boondoggle, too. And they've also promised a referendum on secession. But I think could this then be a political football, this project be a political football in any secession referendum? Yeah, it could be. So this, I mean, they could be posturing. The PQ could be posturing. They could see something that is a good way to bash Ottawa, to bash federalist people in Canada and Ontario. But yeah, it's another headache for a project, another potential thing that could derail it for sure.

[Jason Markusoff]

And CAQ Premier Christine Frechette says that this will generate benefits in terms of economy, traffic, environment is a big one, of course, getting cars off the road and mobility. And then you have Stephen McKinnon, the transport minister, saying there is no Alto project without Quebec. Now, it's a federal project, but do you think a provincial government opposing this would kill it?

[Robert Benzie]

No, it wouldn't. I don't think it would kill it, but it certainly doesn't help it. I mean, here in Ontario, for example, we've seen the federal, the progressive Conservatives of Premier Doug Ford support Aalto. Now, there was a quid pro quo that Prime Minister Mark Carney now denies. There wasn't any quid pro quo, but there was. And the agreement was that the provincial Tories would support Aalto if the federal Liberals supported the expansion of Billy Bishop. Toronto City Airport, that's the Toronto Island Airport right downtown that is currently just available to turboprop aircraft, Porter Airlines and Air Canada Flight turboprops, Q400, Bombardier Q4 hundreds in and out of that airport. And Premier Ford and the Toronto Port Authority, which is the federal body that owns and operates the airport, they'd like to have commuter jets landing there. Those jets, however, need longer Runway. So that would mean extending the Runway into the harbor at Lake Ontario here in Toronto. And I think Carney was initially quite supportive of that and called it in March an interesting vision and a lot of possible strong possibilities there. He said he started to change his tune a little bit in June.

[Jason Markusoff]

I personally have not formed an opinion, just to be absolutely clear on.

[Robert Benzie]

On the airport, and said he hadn't made up his mind. And then they launched a public consultation, and then that public consultation returned on July 24, and 87% of the 87,000 people who responded to it were opposed to any changes there. So Carney announced that, or McKinnon, who is Carney's Transport Minister, announced that they would be putting a pause on expanding the Runway for anything beyond safety things. So the Q4 hundreds could still land there, but they're not going to have jets landing there anytime soon. And then two days after that. So that was on July 24. And then on July 26, Carney called three by elections, one in Quebec, one in British Columbia and one here in Toronto Beaches East York, which is a waterfront seat. And the Federal Liberals were very, very worried that the NDP would field Mike Layton, the son of the late Jack Layton, stepson of Olivia Chow, the mayor of Toronto, and that would cost them that seat. Because the NDP were saying, we're going to make the island airport the issue of this campaign. The Liberals panicked.

[Jason Markusoff]

And it's only after that that we see these Eastern Ontario MPs, 11 of them, I believe, from Doug Ford's caucus then, raising concerns, saying, quote, too many questions remain unanswered, too many voices have been ignored. I mean, they'd been broadly supportive, quiet about this now. So is it clear that it's a tit for tat?

[Robert Benzie]

Yes, it's totally a tit for tat, Jason. And this is a. It's the Eastern Ontario Progressive Conservative Caucus, a group no one had ever heard of before because they'd never really said anything together. And their definition of Eastern Ontario was a little more liberal than perhaps mine would be. It was extending almost to the border to Peterborough, basically to the border of Quebec. But anyway, and they said they would like to see a similar type of consultation done for Aalto as was done for the Billy Bishop Airport. And it was very much. And because two cabinet ministers and the government House leader were signatories to that statement, that tells you that that was a salvo from Premier Ford's office. Now, Premier Ford is still on the record as supporting Aalto. But I think he was sending a message to Prime Minister Carney that he wasn't amused. Now Carney was playing politics and Ford is playing politics and that's what politicians do. We've seen the federal government here listen to a small French group in, in Toronto. But we as the province will continue to push forward on a modernization of this airport. And it's also about building big projects. You know, if Prime Minister Carney and

[Jason Markusoff]

his team want to, this is how they're going to treat bigger projects.

[Robert Benzie]

I don't think you'll get much built. I was interested though because we spoke to Mr. Carney last week about this issue and he was a little bit chippy, I guess you could say, when it was pointed out that he had once said nice things about Billy Bishop airport.

[Jason Markusoff]

The muted ideas for Billy Bishop are interesting. They're were interesting in a broader context. We did not have a policy. So I'm going to take issue with your premise of your question. We did not have a policy and

[Robert Benzie]

he was just saying, look, we did public consultation and we listened to the public. But he was very careful not to rule out jets landing at that airport eventually. But if I may, Prime Minister, you didn't answer whether it means there will be no commuter jets at Billy Bishop ever.

[Jason Markusoff]

Well, that's what we, I mean ever is a long time and forever is a long time. So you, but look, so how is this going to affect this relationship that has been, you know, throughout the whole Trump trade war and pretty strong with Carney and Ford?

[Robert Benzie]

Well, I mean it's, it's puts a strain on it. I mean, interestingly, Carney was in Toronto on Wednesday with, for announcement with Mayor Chow and then he had a private photo op. It was weird, it was a weird pool of cameras only photo op at a, at a transportation project with Premier Ford where they were glad handing and stuff like that. But there was no media availability and Mr. Ford hasn't done a media availability since the July 24th about face by the Federal Liberals on Billy Bishop. So we don't really know from him directly how he feels. We do know that the two of them have a very good rapport. Remember last summer Carney stayed at Ford's cottage in Muskoka before a first Minister's meeting. And even though one is a Federal Liberal and one is a progressive conservative provincially, they have been in lockstep on a lot of things and have worked very closely specifically on the Trump tariff file. So this has for sure put a strain on things. But I Think the long term relationship will endure because Ontario needs the federal government. The federal government needs Ontario.

[Jason Markusoff]

Rob, do you foresee, you know, this project is still ongoing consultations, more maps to come out with more detail, probably more cost values, cost to go up. Do you expect or think that Carney might fall on his sword and that this project might die with all this opposition to it?

[Robert Benzie]

I'm not sure. I mean, because at the end of the day, it is an economic driver, it will create jobs. And this is why I don't believe that that Premier Ford will oppose it formally because there's just no percentage in it for him to do that. Yeah, these 11 MPPs concerns are something that they worry about, but they're, but the provincial conservatives are far more worried about the cities and that's where the votes are. And they know that this would create a lot of jobs, sell a lot of steel that's from Canada, a lot of concrete from Canada, a lot of technology that would be developed around this in Canada. So I think it's one of these mega projects that in the weird time that we're in, Jason, with, you know, we're talking about new pipelines when a few years ago we would have said there's no way that we, the federal government, after building and paying for tmx, why would we ever see another pipeline? But yet that's what we're talking about. It's the Trump has changed the narrative in this country so that we're, you know, rallying around the flag so that we are almost, it's Almost like the 1930s, the New Deal in the United States where they were, you know, building megaprojects like the Hoover Dam and things like that. And even though you could make an argument that this is economically not a smart thing to do because there isn't the market for it, I think it's one of these mega projects that catches the imagination of the public, catches the imagination of politicians. So I don't think that Carney's necessarily going to kill it anytime soon. But this thing is, I think the last phase of it is to open 2041. I mean, I don't think anyone, even the most optimistic liberal, thinks that the liberals will still be in power, you know, 15 years from now.

[Jason Markusoff]

Right. And if the conservatives who oppose it get in with a project this long and this, this big and involved, who knows how many more seasons this, this could get in.

[Robert Benzie]

Yeah, exactly. And, and, and look, other things are, could change as well. I mean, look, aviation fuel could continue to get more and more expensive. And maybe flying between places isn't as viable as it is now. I mean, there are a whole bunch of other things that that could happen. I mean, but more cars are going to be electric by the time 2041 rolls around. So maybe greenhouse gas from cars is not going to be the issue that it is now 15 years from now. So who knows? There are so many variables. But, I mean, the train is leaving the station on this thing now, and they've committed a lot of resources and a lot of political capital to it. So I don't think it's going to die anytime soon.

[Jason Markusoff]

Rob, I think we've felt under the allowed quota of puns. So thanks for the ride on this one.

[Robert Benzie]

My pleasure, Jason.

[Jason Markusoff]

That's all for today. I'm Jason Markusoff. Thanks for listening to frontbrner.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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