How Syria's former first lady aided the bloody regime

Summary

Front Burner (CBC) – Episode Summary: "How Syria's former first lady aided the bloody regime" (August 11, 2026)

---

Overview

Hosted by Jason Markusoff (in for Jayme Poisson), this episode of Front Burner delves into the transformative and controversial role of Asma Al Assad (born Emma Akras), Syria’s former first lady, in her husband’s bloody regime. Markusoff interviews Chloe Hajimethayu, host of the Observer’s investigative podcast series "We Call Her Emma," exploring Asma's evolution from a British-educated banker to a key figure complicit in the atrocities and survival of the Assad dynasty.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Asma's Early Life and Path to the Assads (01:47 - 07:52)

• British Upbringing: Asma Akras, known as "Emma" during her youth, was raised in West London in an aspirational immigrant family.
  • "She was just one or two degrees of separation from me really. We're in the same academic year at school. We both grew up in London in immigrant families..." (Chloe Hajimethayu, 02:05)
• Academic and Professional Success: Excelled in school, attended a prestigious university, and worked in competitive investment banking.
• First Encounters with Bashar: Introduced by her mother, who worked at the Syrian embassy; their relationship developed after Bashar’s elder brother (Bassel) died, unexpectedly making Bashar the heir.
• Ambitious Choices: Early indications that Asma’s career took a back seat to her involvement with Bashar—skipping out on crucial meetings for trysts abroad:
  • "She vanished without having taken any leave or without calling in sick...she said, oh, I'm in Libya as a guest of Gaddafi with my boyfriend, Bashar." (Hajimethayu, 05:03)
• Awareness of Syria’s Past: Asma likely knew of the Assad regime’s violent reputation, e.g., the Hama massacre.
  • "Her family would certainly have known that Syria had a very bad human rights record. Hafez Al Assad... had been known for some terrible massacres..." (Hajimethayu, 06:14)

2. Bashar’s Image as a Reformer and the Reality (07:52 - 11:35)

• False Hope: Initial optimism that Bashar (a trained ophthalmologist pulled into politics) and Asma represented change:
  • "He was this young, sort of unwilling, unwitting... president... He seemed like this soft gentleman who might really offer Syria something different." (Hajimethayu, 08:32)
• Rapid Disillusionment: Reforms failed quickly; Assad reverted to surveillance and repression.
  • "Within the first two years, intellectuals... were rounded up and imprisoned." (Hajimethayu, 09:54)

3. Crafting the "Rose in the Desert" – Image Management (10:53 - 16:06)

• Asma’s Carefully Curated Persona: She positioned herself as a Western-leaning, philanthropic, modern first lady, compared in Western media to Princess Diana.
  • "She really cultivated this image. She really steered clear of politics... focused on culture, the arts, these kind of NGOs..." (Hajimethayu, 11:35)
• Media Manipulation: High-profile Vogue article painted her as an emblem of reform—pulled offline once regime’s brutality became clear.
  • "Vogue reporter... painted this portrait of a very young modern couple who ran their family... on 'wildly democratic principles'..." (Hajimethayu, 13:22)
  • "Anna Wintour, the editor of Vogue, spent an enormous amount of money getting every single copy she could off the streets." (Hajimethayu, 16:06)

4. From Complicity to Active Participation (17:07 - 22:41)

• Changing Role as War Began: As the Syrian Civil War erupted, Asma’s complicity increased.
  • "There are several moments in the podcast where I spoke to people who worked in her office... These were peaceful protesters... and some of them were actually people who had worked for her in the past." (Hajimethayu, 17:16)
• Marie Antoinette Moment: Leaked emails revealed Asma shopping for luxury goods during the height of government violence.
  • "Asma was shopping. She was buying chandeliers, designer shoes, designer furniture, a Ming vase..." (Hajimethayu, 21:01)

5. Victim or Complicit Architect? (22:26 - 25:39)

• Possibility of Regret? Briefly, Asma considered escaping due to marital infidelity, not moral qualms over regime violence.
  • "In 2012, after those emails were leaked, Asma did try and leave the country... because it became clear to her that her husband was having extramarital affairs..." (Hajimethayu, 22:41)
• Transition to Power Broker: By 2020, Asma was deeply embedded, controlling much of Syria’s economy and regime finances.

6. Orphanages and Regime Tactics (25:39 - 31:17)

• Children as Leverage: Investigations confirmed children were taken from political prisoners and used as hostages—Asma's NGOs and orphanages were directly involved.
  • "These children were being held, essentially kidnapped from their families, you know, detained as tools of war." (Hajimethayu, 28:15)
  • "Asma said to this woman who raised it with her: 'These are none of your business. These are the children of terrorists...'" (Hajimethayu, 29:52)
• Rhetorical Shift: By 2022, Asma openly gave speeches about "blood" and sacrifice, highlighting her centrality to the regime’s nationalistic messaging.

7. The Final Days and Exile (31:17 - 36:40)

• Regime’s Collapse: Assad’s survival hinged on Russian and Iranian support; crumbling military and economy led to hasty escape.
  • "When the final act came... Assad's troops and the Syrian military had been weakened... and the Syrian military put down their weapons and abandoned their posts." (Hajimethayu, 32:24)
• Russia’s Calculations: Asma considered a preferred alternative by Russia, which paved the way for the Assads’ exit.
  • "There was a list that was drawn up by the Russians... On that list was Asma al Assad." (Hajimethayu, 33:26)
• Life in Exile: The Assads now live comfortably in Russia with extensive property, frequenting Dubai, maintaining wealth and business interests globally.
  • "They are in exile in Russia where they have a lot of property. Their children speak fluent Russian... have a pretty decent life." (Hajimethayu, 34:41)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Asma’s Background:
  "She called herself Emma in those days... She played tennis on weekends, she liked designer clothing, and... went on to enter the investment banking world..."
  — Chloe Hajimethayu (02:20)

• On Her Attractiveness to Bashar/Power:
  "When they investigated and tracked her down, she said, 'oh, I'm in Libya as a guest of Gaddafi with my boyfriend, Bashar.'"
  — Chloe Hajimethayu (05:18)

• On Syria’s Police State:
  "There were about 17 different intelligence services all spying on each other..."
  — Chloe Hajimethayu (10:18)

• On Image Management:
  "Asma had this double page spread... at the top of a mountain overlooking Damascus, the capital, with her windswept hair looking absolutely beautiful..."
  — Chloe Hajimethayu (13:47)

• On Ignoring Atrocities:
  "If you're first lady in Syria, you can't any longer see the truth of what's going on in the street... everything was sanitized for her constantly."
  — Chloe Hajimethayu (17:51)

• On Leaked Emails:
  "On February 5, Assad emailed his wife a love song. The same day, he launched a brutal assault on Humf..."
  — Chloe Hajimethayu (21:26)

• On Orphan Tactics:
  "These children were being held, essentially kidnapped from their families, you know, detained as tools of war."
  — Chloe Hajimethayu (28:15)

• On Asma’s Attitude:
  "These are none of your business. These are the children of terrorists, and you should not become involved..."
  — Chloe Hajimethayu (29:52)

• On Exile:
  "Their children speak fluent Russian, and... attended university there. They apparently have a nice country villa and also a high rise penthouse in... the Beverly Hills of Moscow..."
  — Chloe Hajimethayu (34:45)

---

Important Timestamps

• 01:47 – Introduction to Asma’s early life and character
• 06:14 – Hama massacre and regime reputation
• 08:32 – Bashar comes to power, initial hopes
• 13:22 – The infamous Vogue article
• 17:16 – War begins; Asma’s response
• 21:01 – Leaked emails: luxury shopping during violence
• 22:41 – Attempts at escape and deepening complicity
• 28:15 – Direct involvement in orphan abductions
• 32:24 – The regime’s fall, Russian involvement
• 34:41 – Life in exile in Russia and Dubai

---

Tone and Style

The conversation is investigative, reflective, and at times, deeply personal—Chloe Hajimethayu brings a sense of proximity and empathy, having grown up in a similar background to Asma. The story is told with both journalistic rigor and narrative intimacy.

---

For listeners seeking a nuanced understanding of Asma Al Assad’s trajectory—from an outwardly modern, glamorous figure to an active participant and enabler of a brutal regime—this episode provides a revealing, deeply-sourced account. The complex story of image, complicity, and power makes for a sobering exploration of personal and political transformation amid one of the 21st century’s most devastating conflicts.

Transcript

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

If you're listening to this, I already know you have great taste in podcasts, but maybe if you're like me, you still wonder if you're missing out on the best stuff.

[Jason Markusoff]

That's where the Sounds Good newsletter can help you out.

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

Every other Thursday, the audio files at CBC Podcast highlight one must hear show

[Jason Markusoff]

and lots of other new and noteworthy titles. They do conversation starters, they do hidden

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

gems, and they also tell you about the stuff they love that they didn't make.

[Jason Markusoff]

Go to CBC CA Sounds good to subscribe. This is a CBC podcast. Hey, I'm Jason Markusoff in for Jamie. In December 2024, Ashar Al Assadinous family fled Syria. Their escape brought an abrupt end to one of the Middle East's longest running political dynasties. The Assad family had ruled Syria for more than half a century and for the previous 13 years had waged a devastating civil war against their own citizens, one that killed hundreds of thousands of Syrians, displaced millions more, and reduced entire cities to rubble. By the leader's side through it all was his wife, Asma Al Assad, a British banker from West London who for a while was held up as the glamorous face of a modern Syria. Her complicity in her husband's regime is the subject of a new podcast by the Observer. Its host, Chloe Hajimethayu, is my guest today. Hi Chloe, thanks so much for joining us.

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Jason Markusoff]

Let's start before Syria and before Bashar al Assad. The title of your podcast refers to its main character not as Asma, but as Emma, this quintessentially British name. So why don't we begin with who Emma Akras was and her childhood in London. What kind of life did it seem she was destined to have before meeting the would be Syrian leader?

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

Yeah, I mean, this is what got me fascinated in her in the first place because I felt that she was just one or two degrees of separation from me really. We're in the same academic year at school. We both grew up in London in immigrant families, aspirational immigrant families who wanted us to have a good education and do well for ourselves. I became a journalist, she married a dictator. It's quite strange, but she called herself Emma in those days and she didn't look to anybody on the outside like a a girl that was had been raised in the Syrian family. She was very westernized. She's got pale skin and light brown hair and with a name like Emma so quintessentially English, nobody would have guessed her background. She played tennis on Weekends she liked designer clothing and she went to good university in London and went on to enter the investment banking world, which is quite competitive. I would say she did extremely well and very quickly. She was one of the front facing staff, quite unusually for her age and her level. But having spoken to several people who worked with her, her managers at the investment bank where she worked in, in London, they had some interesting stories to tell. One of them described how she turned up at a meeting with some important clients and, and claimed that her laptop wasn't working. He believes she was covering up for the fact that she hadn't prepared for the meeting at all. She hadn't done the work she was supposed to do. Because it seems that Bashar Al Assad had come into town and she had abandoned her work to hang out with him. The couple had first been introduced by Asma's mother. When Asma was a teenager. Her mother worked at the Syrian Embassy in London. And it seems that when she realized that the president's son, who was not in line for the presidency at that point, he had an older brother who was going to be president of Syria when their father died. Not Bashar. Bashar had studied medicine and decided to go into ophthalmology and he'd come to London to further his studies. And Asma's mother orchestrated a meeting. But then the older brother, Bassel died in a car accident. I felt like I'd been struck by lightning, said one Syrian after receiving the news that Basel Assad had been killed. Was an army major and head of the presidential security body in Syria. And Bashar al Assad, who was a very unlikely character for president, suddenly got called back to Syria to prepare for the presidenc. His older brother was this tough, macho Syrian guy. Bashar is, I mean, he's such an unlikely president. He really just didn't seem to fit the bill at all. He doesn't look the part. He's tall and weedy and chinless and has this kind of very soft voice. Not at all the macho image of his elder brother and his father. But he ended up becoming the president of Syria in 2000 when his father died. And within months, sudden, Asma was by his side as his wife. As the new first lady of Syria.

[Jason Markusoff]

Is it your sense that her attraction to him was because you don't portray him as a, you know, a very attractive figure? Was, was, was the, the lure for her power? I mean, she was already working on her own career trajectory as a, as this banker you talk about.

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

Yeah, I don't know. So her school friend says that she feels that there was some attraction. It must have definitely been exciting, I think right from the get go. When they began courting, which was much later, when Bashar realized he would need a wife if he was going to be president in the year or so before his father died, I think some kind of courtship began. And someone, J.P. morgan at the bank where she worked told me that she vanished without having taken any leave or without calling in sick. And when they investigated and tracked her down, she said, oh, I'm in Libya as a guest of Gaddafi with my boyfriend, Bashar. For Asma, this seems to have been exciting. I mean, her family would certainly have known that Syria had a very bad human rights record. That Hafez Al Assad, the president before Bashar, had been known for some terrible massacres, including one in a town called hama, where about 40,000 people were killed following an uprising in the town. The people were rounded up in neighborhoods and executed. Syria's Muslim Brotherhood, which had a stronghold in Sahama, had always been opposed to the Ba'ath Party's rule over Syria, and it led a violent campaign against regime officials and institutions. On the morning of February 3, 1982, Syrian military units surrounded the city. And for the next 27 days, Hama was bombed from the air and ground. Much of the city was destroyed. It has gone down in Syrian memory as one of the biggest atrocities in. In the country's history. So Asma must have known the family she was marrying into. But I suspect, like most young people starting a marriage, she may have thought, you know, my husband's not perfect, but, you know, I can change him and maybe I can change Syria.

[Jason Markusoff]

Foreign. So Syrians also seems like they thought he could bring change, be this reformer, not the sort of brutal dictator his father was, who created this giant police state and, as you said, perpetrated the major massacre. But then Bashar also becomes this violent leader who would go on to be accused of using chemical weapons against his own people. Before we delve a bit more into Asma, how do you make sense of her husband's transformation into this authoritarian leader?

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

Yeah, it's very interesting. So I wonder whether he believed his own rhetoric in the beginning. He gave a speech in parliament when he first became president. And I remember this. I was sitting in London and I had visited Syria previously. I had really fallen in love with the country. And Bashar Al Assad took the reins and gave this incredible speech where he sort of said all the right things that he wanted to move the country towards democracy. And he was this young, sort of unwilling, unwitting, I should say, president, somebody who hadn't set out for the presidential role. He'd sort of been forced into it by his older brother's death and he'd studied to be a doctor. He seemed like this soft gentleman man who might really offer Syria something different. And Asma being by his side, really played into this. She was a beautiful woman who was very fashionable, elegant, erudite. She had ideas also about starting NGOs and helping people in Syria with things like microfinance and business and empowerment of women. And so it really felt in the first few years that Syria might be offered something new, something much, much more Western facing, I guess. But those aspirations died really quite quickly. Within the first two years, intellectuals who'd sort of bought into Bashar Al Assad's talk of reform had opened up political salons and were pushing for more freedom and more democracy. And very quickly they were being rounded up and imprisoned. And it became clear that if democracy was going to happen, it was going to happen a lot more slowly. And Syria fell back on its old tried and tested means of control of the population through fear. There were about 17 different intelligence services all spying on each other, in each having recruited huge numbers of the population who were also spying on each other. And this may have eased slightly under Bashar Al Assad, but certainly he wasn't closing down these intelligence services even as

[Jason Markusoff]

it was became clear quickly, as you say, that Bashar wasn't the reformer that he initially appeared to be. Asma, if I'm not mistaken, was more portrayed for longer as this breath of fresh air. And it seems like a lot of that was cultivated, right? There was these image consultants. People were kind of cultivating this Princess Diana presence. She's photographed consoling the families of deceased soldiers, the pictures posted on the president's Facebook page. She visits victims of the war, her husband fights so ruthlessly in a glowing profile. Vogue magazine called her a rose in the desert, then abruptly pulled the piece off the web. Why do you think that there were so many people eager to believe that she represented this different future for Syria?

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

It's interesting, isn't it? And I think that it's not a small thing that she was a beautiful, elegant, well spoken woman. I think it's easier to believe that a beautiful woman with young children or orphans sitting on her lap in photo shoots must be a decent sort of maternal character. And Asma really cultivated this image. She really steered clear of politics, which I think also helped she really focused on culture, the arts, these kind of NGOs that she was creating in Syria. And I think people saw this beautiful woman who was Western educated and who spoke English, you know, without an accent. And I think they bought into this idea of Princess Diana of Syria becoming first lady was never a part of my career plan. This position doesn't come with a job description of, or a manual. And so I decided to approach it from a citizen's perspective. What could I do to make my country stronger and fairer? And from the very beginning, I was drawn to helping empower people that work very. And of course, Princess Diana was on the screen when me and Asma were young girls growing up in England. You know, Britain and the rest of the world were obsessed with this kind of really sad, mournful British princess. And I think Asma, it's no coincidence really, that she cultivated this image. She did hire PR consultants, very expensive firms, top of the range. I spoke to somebody who was dealing with her particular file at one of these PR agencies. And they managed this amazing coup as it was for them to get a big feature in Vogue magazine. Asma had this double page spread with a photograph of her standing at the top of a mountain overlooking Damascus, the capital, with her windswept hair looking absolutely beautiful. And the Vogue reporter had gone in, I have to say, without having done much preparation and not having put much thought into the human rights record in Syria, and painted this portrait of a very young modern couple who ran their family on, and I quote, wildly democratic principles as they sort of sat around the dinner table eating fondue and talked about sending their children to Montessori schools. And, you know, it ticked all the right boxes. And asthma must have been absolutely delighted by this. But unfortunately for Vogue, just days after this was published, the Arab Spring hit Syria and protesters were out on the streets calling for democracy and asking for more rights.

[Jason Markusoff]

The Syrian government declared today the situation is completely calm in all parts of the country. But amateur video posted on YouTube and elsewhere told a very different story.

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

They are calling it the Aleppo volcano. In Syria's second largest city, protesters are determined to bring down their regime. So called Day of Dignity. Demonstrations were held across the country on Friday. Hundreds of thousands of people turned out on both sides, including in the capital Damascus, where pro and anti government supporters clashed in the Old Town. They promised Friday was going to be big. It turned out to be huge. This is Banyas on the northeastern coast, all calling for the regime to fall. And their protests were met with unbelievable brutality. People were being rounded up and imprisoned in their thousands. Hundreds were being shot in the streets. For the past week, Daraa has been burying their dead. Demonstrators killed while clashing with security forces. Dozens are believed to have died. People here say at least 150, far higher than the figure of 37 provided by the state. The UN says at least 5,000 lives have been lost in Syria since the protest movement began.

[Jason Markusoff]

Look at the sniper on the roof,

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

says the man filming this footage he's shooting.

[Jason Markusoff]

The day began with Syrian forces opening fire.

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

The protesters have no choice.

[Jason Markusoff]

They simply scatter.

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

And suddenly this Vogue article looked really tasteless. And Anna Winter, the editor of Vogue, spent an enormous amount of money getting every single copy she could off the streets. And it was not available online for a very long time. A few people had photographed it and were uploading it, but it's still quite hard to read if you want to get hold of it. All your favorite CBC podcasts are now available on YouTube.

[Jason Markusoff]

The best in award winning true crime

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

investigations, hilarious comedies, vibrant pop culture conversations

[Jason Markusoff]

and even more audio series are all available on CBC Podcast YouTube channel. You'll also find exclusive video, first episodes, YouTube shorts and behind the scenes content from our hosts and producers that you can't find anywhere else. So if YouTube is your go to source for podcasts, just search CBC podcasts

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

and hit subscribe and you'll never miss the latest update.

[Jason Markusoff]

So the war hits in 2011. She's been in power for a decade. Do you think that she changed once the war took hold?

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

I think she probably began changing before then. There are several moments in the podcast where I spoke to people who worked in her office at her NGOs and I described these two Syrias which I saw for myself. You know I went out there in 2006 and I remember walking around Damascus and it was just this wonderful vibrant city with cafes and restaurants. I remember walking past one of these intelligence agencies and you would it just looked like an ordinary government office but underground we now know we've seen the images as well was a dungeon where people were held disappeared into really and have talked about horrendous torture going on there. And it was very easy if you were a tourist to walk around and and pretend this wasn't going on. And I think if you were Asma la sad you could also pretend it wasn't going on. But there were moments for asthma when this dark Assyria intruded on her on her world. People came forward and talked about people being tortured and this kind of thing would encroach on her world. And so I think at some point she had to make a decision when the these things were coming to her attention, what she would do. And she chose to believe that these were individual cases, bad eggs in the system and not a systemic problem. And I, I spoke to one of her colleagues who also said that at some point, if you're first lady in Syria, you can't any longer see the truth of what's going on in the street. You can't see how people are living. You can't see the cor and the fear and the paranoia because wherever you arrive, things are pre prepared for you whether or not you want it. It's not something within your power. In a system like Syria, people behave as they believe they're supposed to behave because there is so much fear. And so everything was sanitized for her constantly. I have several instances in the podcast where I spoken to people who approached her in the, in the early months of the Arab Spring in Syria where people were being shot in the street. These were peaceful protesters. This was way before this descended into a civil war, before these protesters had any weapons. And some of them were actually people who had worked for her in the past. I tell the story of one woman, Rima Dali, who just stood in the street in absolute frustration, holding a sign calling for peace. And she was arrested and disappeared into one of Syria's dungeons. And her colleagues were terrified for her. And this was a moment where Asma could have potentially intervened, but it was, she made it very, very clear to her employees really early on, you can have your opinion. I don't want it brought in the office and I am not going to intervene on your behalf. There was a moment where she seems to have been offered safe passage out of Syria in 2012. This is, by this point the civil war has really started taking hold. Tens of thousands of people have been arrested. The prisons are overflowing with people. People are being executed in huge numbers. These are protesters. They've begun taking up arms against the state. And in the midst of all of this horror, which, you know, the west is starting to see on their TV screens and pay attention to sudden get an insight into what Asma Al Assad has been up to behind closed doors. There are these unguarded moments that we get a glimpse of through her emails. The London based Guardian newspaper says it has obtained more than 3,000 documents believed to be emails sent and received by Bashar Al Assad and his wife Asma. It seems that someone in Bashar Al Assad's office had managed to hack the emails of Bashar and Asma and published their emails. And we see that Asma was shopping. She was buying chandeliers, designer shoes, designer furniture, a Ming vase. Between June and September of 2011, Essad's wife bought thousands of dollars worth of luxury goods, including a $4,000 vase from Harrods in London and a $9,800 handmade table. On February 5, Assad emailed his wife a love song. The same day, he launched a brutal assault on Humf. So there's this kind of real Marie Antoinette moment where the country is up in flames and Asma is sort of sending messages to her friends in the west describing what color gems she wants in handmade French jewelry.

[Jason Markusoff]

In the end, one of the central questions of your series seems to be whether she was this woman trapped in this authoritarian system, like a complicated victim, or somebody who was complicit in what the Assad government was doing. Where do you come down in that?

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

So I think there is a possibility that she wavered at certain points. I know that at one point I was told by a journalist who was very close to the regime, in fact, he was at school or at university, I should say, with Bashar Al Assad, and was for a short time his advisor before he fell out of favor with the regime. And he is still very well connected. And he said that in 2012, soon after those emails were leaked, Asma did try and leave the country. And when I heard this, I had this moment of thinking, oh my God, maybe. Maybe things got so bad that she just thought, I can't stand this anymore, this is too much. But then I was told that the reason she wanted to leave was because it became clear to her that her husband was having extramarital affairs. And she was furious about this. He had been sleeping with the wives of other top officials within the regime. And she felt humiliated and she tried to leave, but she was not allowed to go. I think he said she got as far as the wrong way. And the pilot said he didn't have the authority to take off. And so if Asma did try and leave because she was so angry about the affairs, what I heard was that the deal that was then struck was that Bashar would do what he was going to do, have the affairs he was going to have. But in return for Asma's humiliation, he would agree that she could have more freedom within the economy and within the business world in Syria to do as she liked. It's important to sort of look at this through the context of Middle Eastern dictators wives. We, we don't know any other Middle Eastern dictators wives. At least I don't, I don't remember who Gaddafi's wife was or Saddam Hussein's wife or, you know, any of these top dictators. You don't know their wives because these were women who essentially stayed within the home. They were not public figures. And asthma was very, very different right from the outset. So if she had wanted to leave at some point, and if she had hinges to her moral compass as the war got worse and worse, it seems that at some point her attention was drawn elsewhere and she had, let's say, she was compensated in other ways. And it seems that by 2020 she was certainly considered to be one of the top people in the regime controlling Syria, Largely in control of the economy in Syria, but also bankrolling the war, bankrolling the regime and bankrolling her family.

[Jason Markusoff]

Your reporting, you know, beyond her financial control, looks into some of the accusations and allegations about her in another realm, and that's the Assad government's treatment of children. You were reporting on claims that the children were separated from their parents who were detained or disappeared, sometimes placed in orphanages. And these children were alleged to have been used as leverage against uncooperative families or dissidents. And you traveled to Syria to investigate these allegations. Tell me what you found and how Asma herself figures into that story.

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

Yeah, so I have to say, you know, it's, it's reporting this, this particular story has been one of the hardest things I've ever done in my career because there is so much rumor and particularly since the regime fell, everybody has a story to pedal. And this idea that Asma was involved in the kidnapping and holding of these children, it seemed really quite far fetched. And also it seemed like something that people might make up because Asma was constantly photographed with children on her lap. This was part of her image. And the organizations that she ran, the NGOs that she ran, also had a hand in running the country's orphanages, which is why she was often photographed there. There were these PR opportunities whenever she would visit the orphanages. And when I got there, I was really surprised. All the employees that I spoke to in the one particular orphanage where we got sort of open access, all of them were telling me she knew what was going on here. She hired the top staff, she was incredibly involved. She received monthly reports of what was going on inside these orphanages. And she was told about these detainee children who were brought to the orphanages by the intelligence services. That's not how orphans would normally be presented at an orphanage. It may be the police, it may be the Ministry of Social affairs, social workers who would bring children who had been abandoned or whose parents had died. But these were being brought by the intelligence services, and there were very clear directives which were written. And I saw these documents instructing the orphanage not to hand these children over to any family member who came and asked for them without explicit approval of the intelligence services. So the documents are there that show that these children were being held, essentially kidnapped from their families, you know, detained as tools of war. I spoke to women who worked in these institutions who had direct contact with asthma, particularly in two orphanages. Both of them said to me that they had informed asthma. One of them had written about it in a report that asthma had received. The other one spoke to Asma directly and said to her, what's going on with these kids of detainees? You know, they were. They were called crisis children. That was the euphemism used inside the orphanages. And Asma said to this woman who raised it with her, these are none of your business. These are the children of terrorists, and you should not become involved in things that are none of your business. One of the most shocking speeches I heard of her was later in the war, after 2020, I think it was about 2022, so quite soon before the regime fell. And she talks about the history is written in the blood of truth and in the future of our children. And it was. I can't remember the exact wording, but it was shocking to me because it was quite aggressive for a woman who had started out modeling herself on Princess Diana, using soft words and sort of of sticking to talking about culture and the needy in the country, suddenly she was being photographed with the families of soldiers, and she was talking about blood and the price that Syrian soldiers were paying for truth and the future of Syria. But of course, my priorities today are helping martyr's family, families, helping injured soldiers and people that have been displaced or affected by this war. It's because of these people that Syria is standing today, and we owe it to them to honor their sacrifice. If I'm helping Syrians, then ultimately I'm helping the president as well. So it seems to me that by the time that the Assad regime was starting to crumble, or, you know, maybe we shouldn't say starting to crumble, because not many people saw it coming when. When the regime did eventually fall. But by 2020, 2022, when the world had essentially decided that Bashar al Assad had won the war. For all intents and purposes, he still only controlled about 65% of the country. But the front lines were frozen, and it didn't seem that the rebels were going to gain any more territory. The world began to open up again. The UN was photographed in Syria having tea. UN officials having tea with Asma al Assad. Bashar was readmitted into the Arab League and was able to visit countries like Saudi Arabia and have the red carpet rolled out for him there.

[Jason Markusoff]

He is labeled by so many a monster in a brutal civil war that's left nearly half a million dead, many millions displaced. Syrian President Bashar al Assad now welcomed back to the Arab League with open arms and two kisses from Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. The Arab world can now reposition itself, he said, in a world of Western dominance that lacks principles, manners, friends, and partners.

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

It seemed like the Assads were going nowhere.

[Jason Markusoff]

So other countries during the Arab Spring fell quickly. Assad didn't. They survived this bloody conflict until the end when the rebels entered Damascus in 2024. And you tell the story about how he and Asma quietly fled the country under Russian protection after reportedly assuring many around them that help was still on the way. How should we understand this final act of Bashar and Asma as leading Syria?

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

I think, you know, an important thing to say is that the reason that Bashar al Assad survived the war was largely because the Russians came to his rescue. Both the Russians and the Iranians and the Iranian various Iranian militias like Hezbollah. Without their help, Bashar al Assad would never have survived the war. But, you know, Iran had been depleted by its own war with Israel, and Russia had been depleted by its war with Ukraine. And so when the final act came and when the rebels began pushing down in this surprise attack from the north, you know, Assad's troops and the Syrian military had been weakened from years of terrible salaries and hunger. You know, the Syrian economy had. Had been shot. It was all over the place. There hadn't been any proper business coming into Syria or money coming into Syria for years and years. And. And the war had cost them greatly. And so the Syrian military put down their weapons and abandoned their posts. And Bashar was still hopeful that the Russians would come to his rescue. But it seems Russia had really tired of Bashar al Assad because they had won the war for him, but he wasn't prepared to sort of win the peace. He had bankrolled a lot of his final years through a drugs trade, an Amphetamines, trade and business that he had built in Syria that was affecting neighboring countries. And they were really, it seems the Russians were really sick of him. And one of the most interesting things I learned was that there was a list that was drawn up by the Russians in which they were thinking of alternatives for Assad as a new leader for Syria, new president. And on that list was Asma al Assad. And so I wonder whether when they offered safe passage for Bashar and Asma in Moscow, when they did eventually escape, whether Asma had a hand in that, whether it was the fact that they liked Asma much more than Bashar that meant that they opened their door for the Assads.

[Jason Markusoff]

So a year and a half later, can you update us on what the Assad family is up to today? They're so mostly in. In quiet exile in Russia.

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

They are in exile in Russia where they have a lot of property. Their children speak fluent Russian, and at least two of their three children attended university there. They apparently have a nice country villa and also a high rise penthouse in a sort of, I guess you could call it the Beverly Hills of Moscow, where lots of other rich and famous people have their residencies and also lots of other dissidents who've been offered safe passage, like Edward Snowden apparently lives there, and the former president of Ukraine, Victor Yanukovych. You sort of wonder what kinds of dinner parties they might have there. They also often travel to Dubai. So I learned that the Assads have a golden visa for the uae. They have residency, but they have been told by the government in the UAE that they should not move permanently to Dubai. One major reason given I, I learned, was because of security issues. As you can imagine, there are a lot of people who have a lot of hatred towards Bashar Al Assad and towards Asma. And so one of their major concerns must be that they do not fall to an assassination plot. But they have a lot of money. I've learned that they still have a lot of companies that are being run for them all around the world through shell companies and through different very loyal parties that are still by their sides. They have millions. Their youngest son has business interests in China. He speaks fluent Mandarin, and apparently his mom has taken an interest in helping him with that. So they travel to Dubai. Bashar has been there at least twice. Asma goes there regularly. Her brother, her mother, her three children all live over there. I think they're okay. I think they have a pretty decent life.

[Jason Markusoff]

Chloe, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.

[Chloe Hajimethayu]

You are very welcome.

[Jason Markusoff]

There continue to be attempts to prosecute Bashar Al Assad for war crimes. Asma Al Assad was investigated by the UK Metropolitan Police for allegations that she had aided and encouraged war crimes by Syrian government forces. Those allegations were never pursued. Chloe's podcast series on Asmal Assad and the Assad family is called. We call her Emma. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for TODAY Day. I'm Jason Marcusoff. Thanks for listening to frontburner. For more cbc podcasts, go to cbc ca podcasts.