Is Carney undoing the Liberals’ climate legacy?

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Is Carney undoing the Liberals’ climate legacy?”

Front Burner (CBC) – May 20, 2026
Host: Jamie Poisson
Guest: Arno Kopecki, climate journalist

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Main Theme

This episode examines how Prime Minister Mark Carney, one year into his tenure, is reshaping Canada’s climate policies and whether his actions represent a betrayal of the climate legacy left by Justin Trudeau’s Liberal government. Jamie Poisson and Arno Kopecki discuss the newly announced Alberta-Ottawa energy agreement, slashed climate targets, regulatory overhauls, and the deeper political and environmental implications for Canada’s climate future.

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1. Trudeau’s Climate Legacy: Foundations and Policies

Segment: [01:37–04:43]

• Paris Agreement as Organizing Principle:
  The Trudeau government’s climate strategy was anchored in Canada’s Paris Agreement commitment to cut emissions by 45% below 2005 levels by 2030.
• Pan-Canadian Framework (2016):
  Key pillars included:
  • A consumer and industrial carbon price (planned to reach $170/ton by 2030)
  • EV (electric vehicle) mandates (60% of sales to be EVs by 2030, 100% by 2035)
  • Emissions cap on oil sands
  • Clean electricity growth targets
• Political Trade-off:
  • Alberta’s support for the framework hinged on approval for a new pipeline to the coast (Trans Mountain).
  • “The big trade off, the grand bargain for all of this in 2016 was a pipeline for Alberta.”
    — Arno Kopecki [04:07]

Quote:

“Every single thing had a 2030 target.”
— Arno Kopecki [03:22]

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2. Carney’s Changes: Delayed and Dismantled Climate Action

Segment: [04:43–06:40]

• Policies Canceled or Delayed:
  • Consumer carbon price canceled immediately.
  • EV mandate canceled (though rebates persist).
  • Clean electricity regulations weakened and deadlines extended.
  • Emissions cap on the oil sands canceled.
• Impact on Progress:
  • “We’re on track to lower emissions by about 10% compared to the 2005 baseline, which is dramatically short of the 45% that we were aiming for.”
    — Arno Kopecki [05:17]

Quote:

“With the stroke of a Prime minister, Mark Carney undid the signature environmental policy of 10 years of the Trudeau government.”
— Grainger Advertiser [06:03] (as cited in discussion)

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3. The New Alberta-Ottawa Energy Agreement

Segment: [06:40–10:23]

• Pipeline as Centerpiece:
  • Agreement lays groundwork for a new oil pipeline to the BC coast, set to begin construction as early as September 2027, moving over 1 million barrels/day.
• Industrial Carbon Price:
  • Target reduced from $170/ton by 2030 to $130/ton by 2040.
  • Estimated savings for industry: $250 billion in compliance costs by 2050.
  • Enforcement pushed back 10-15 years; “2040 is sort of the new 2030.”
• Carbon Capture and the Pathways Project:
  • Large-scale carbon capture project is a condition for pipeline approval.
  • “The true purpose of carbon capture is to enable an increase in oil production… This carbon capture project would capture about 16 megatons… Compare that to how much emissions you would release if you build a pipeline…160 megatons.”

Quote:

“You’re producing 10 times more emissions than you’re capturing is the deal here.”
— Arno Kopecki [10:23]

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4. Net Zero 2050: Still Achievable?

Segment: [11:46–13:38]

• Carney and Alberta commit rhetorically and “with a series of investments and commitments and market frameworks” to net zero by 2050.
• Environmental groups strongly disagree, seeing weakened interim targets making 2050 net zero harder.
• “All of our climate actions have been pushed back by a decade or more. So when you put off your homework, then you have a massive crunch coming in in that final decade.”
  — Arno Kopecki [13:05]

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5. Regulatory Overhauls: Faster Approvals, Weaker Oversight?

Segment: [13:38–17:22]

• Environmental Assessments:
  • Trudeau-era reforms prioritized Indigenous consultation and rigorous, science-driven assessments.
  • Carney government proposes to:
    • Accelerate project approvals (especially for pipelines)
    • Limit environmental review to the Canada Energy Regulator only
• Concerns:
  • Risks “absolute evisceration of Canada’s environmental safety net.”
    — West Coast Environmental Law, paraphrased [15:31]
  • Arno Kopecki tempers the alarm, noting most changes are proposals, and some environmental protections remain, but the “direction of travel is increasingly clear and alarming.”

Quote:

“Environmental protection [is] taking a back seat to resource extraction.”
— Arno Kopecki [15:52]

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6. Species at Risk, Cabinet Power, and Pipeline Impacts

Segment: [17:22–19:43]

• Species at Risk Act Loophole:
  • Former Environment Minister Steven Guilbeault warns of proposals that let cabinet exempt projects from key species protections.
• Marine and Terrestrial Risks:
  • Example: “The southern resident killer whales… What leaps out at me here is… the possibility of an oil spill. Even without an oil spill, the damage… all of these oil tankers will introduce acoustically to the marine environment around here… If you eliminate species protection, then absolutely we are afraid…”
    — Arno Kopecki [18:11]
• Kopecki agrees with concerns for orcas, caribou, and other threatened species.

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7. Comparing Carney to Harper: A Matter of Degree

Segment: [19:43–21:31]

• Guilbeault claims Carney’s proposals go “beyond what former Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper proposed.”
• Kopecki disagrees, noting Harper’s government “launched a crusade against environmental organizations” and dismantled more regulatory protections than Carney has (so far).
• Still, Carney’s weakening of climate ambitions is significant and should not be dismissed.

Quote:

“For all that Mark Carney has done to accelerate resource extraction, he’s also fighting for a carbon price, an industrial carbon price, which is more than Stephen Harper ever did.”
— Arno Kopecki [20:46]

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8. Is Carney Betraying the Climate Legacy? Weighing the Nuance

Segment: [21:31–23:10]

• Kopecki admits to shifting his own views, understanding more of the national unity pressures Carney faces, and the use of Alberta separatism as a political lever.
• He still feels personally “deeply disturbed” by Carney’s abandonment of climate goals but acknowledges the complexity of the situation.

Quote:

“Both things are true. I am deeply disturbed by everything Carney is doing on the climate file, and I appreciate why he might feel he has to be doing some of that.”
— Arno Kopecki [22:37]

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9. The National Electricity Strategy

Segment: [23:10–24:39]

• Doubling the National Grid:
  • Carney pledged to double national electricity infrastructure, especially by increasing interprovincial flow.
  • Opens the door further to gas-fired electricity, which draws critique.
  • Plan is less aggressive on renewables than Trudeau, but perhaps more serious about actual electrification.

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10. The Emotional and Political Cost of Weakened Climate Action

Segment: [24:39–28:46]

• Public Betrayal and Political Risks:
  • Many environmentalists feel acutely betrayed by Carney.
  • Kopecki points out that focusing on numbers and frameworks misses the “actual physical reality” — fires, floods, droughts, species loss, and impacts on daily life.
• Framing and Alberta’s Influence:
  • Alberta has successfully framed the debate around oil profits and costs of climate policy, sidelining focus on climate damages and benefits of mitigation.
• Final Thought:

  “None of the cost of climate change have gone away. We’re about to be reminded of them as summer comes up… When those costs come in… that’s when that sense of betrayal—when we see our community getting evacuated because of a wildfire… or when we see the price of groceries… double or triple… That’s when that physical sense of betrayal—like, what are we doing about this?”
  — Arno Kopecki [26:35]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “2040 is sort of the new 2030.” — Arno Kopecki [08:29]
• “You’re producing 10 times more emissions than you’re capturing is the deal here.” — Arno Kopecki [10:23]
• “Canadians should be afraid of that and push back on that.” [referring to pipelines being approved solely by the Canada Energy Regulator] — Arno Kopecki [15:12]
• “Both things are true. I am deeply disturbed by everything Carney is doing on the climate file, and I appreciate why he might feel he has to be doing some of that.” — Arno Kopecki [22:37]
• “What has been swept off the page is the actual physical reality of climate change.” — Arno Kopecki [25:54]

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• Trudeau’s climate legacy and Paris Agreement – [01:37–04:43]
• Carney cancels/delays major policies – [05:39–06:40]
• Alberta energy agreement (pipeline, carbon price) – [06:40–10:23]
• 2050 net zero debate – [11:46–13:38]
• Assessment regime changes and fears of regulatory evisceration – [13:38–17:22]
• Species at Risk and orca concerns – [17:22–19:43]
• Comparing Carney to Harper/Guilbeault disagreement – [19:43–21:31]
• Kopecki’s evolving view on Carney’s trade-offs – [21:31–23:10]
• National electricity strategy – [23:10–24:39]
• Discussion of emotional/political cost and climate reality – [24:39–28:46]

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Conclusion

The episode offers an in-depth, balanced analysis of Mark Carney’s new direction on climate policy—marked by delays, weakened enforcement, and resource-sector concessions—contrasted with Trudeau’s target-driven framework. The environmental community largely feels “betrayed,” but the broader conversation reveals the profound complexities and competing national priorities at the heart of Canada’s climate struggle.

Transcript

[Jamie Poisson]

Discover Top rated stays Loved by guests. Rated highest by real guests through authentic reviews. VRBO Book a vacation rental Loved by guests.

[Arno Kopecki]

This is a CBC podcast.

[Jamie Poisson]

Hey, everybody, I'm Jamie Poisson.

[Alberta Premier Danielle Smith]

Building big, building building fast. Building bold again. Building with trust an Alberta strong and a Canada strong for all. Thank you very much.

[Jamie Poisson]

Late last week, Prime Minister Mark Carney made the trip to Calgary to stand beside Alberta Premier Daniel Smith and announced this new energy agreement. It included an industrial carbon pricing deal that paves the way for a new pipeline. It was panned by environmentalists who said, among other things, Ottawa is sacrificing climate targets it spent the better part of a decade legislating. Today on the show, we're bringing climate journalist Arno Kopecki back. Arno writes for publications like the Narwhal and the National Observer. He is a really great communicator on this stuff. And we're going to try to tackle the question. One year into his tenure, is Mark Carney betraying his own climate bona fides and a decade of liberal groundwork, or is it more complicated than that? Arno, great to have you.

[Arno Kopecki]

Hi, Jamie. Great to be here.

[Jamie Poisson]

So we'll talk more about this energy agreement between Alberta and Ottawa in a bit, but I actually, I want to start this conversation with former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his climate legacy to better understand how different Mark Carney's approach has been over the last year. And just remind us what were the big planks of the Trudeau era? Environmental policies, for sure.

[Arno Kopecki]

So I think the thing that hangs over all of this is the Paris Agreement, which was signed in December of 2015. Canada was a huge player there. We all agreed to lower emissions by 45% by 2030, and 2030 is the deadline to keep in mind. That was the organizing principle for Trudeau's entire climate strategy.

[Alberta Premier Danielle Smith]

Our government is making climate change a top priority.

[Arno Kopecki]

A year after the Paris Agreement In December of 2016, Trudeau announced the Pan Canadian Framework on Clean Growth and Climate

[Alberta Premier Danielle Smith]

Change, an ambitious and achievable framework to address climate change and grow the clean economy for our children and and grandchildren,

[Arno Kopecki]

with Alberta's Premier, then Rachel Notley at his side. And so I want to thank all

[Alberta Premier Danielle Smith]

of the premiers for being here today, for coming into this meeting with some strongly held views, but also with a willingness to work hard on behalf of all Canadians.

[Arno Kopecki]

And that was Canada's climate change strategy that was actually really complex. There was over 50 policy points, but there was some main pillars. The biggest one, of course, was carbon price Both a consumer carbon price and an industrial carbon price. There was also an EV mandate. There was an emissions cap on the oil sands, and there was a clean electricity growth factor as well. Now, all of these things had hardcore 2030 targets. So the idea was to get, for example, 60% of vehicle sales in Canada were supposed to be EVs by 2030 and 100% by 2035. The carbon price, of course, started at $20, but it ratcheted up every year. So it was going to be $170 by a ton by 2030 for both the consumer and the industrial carbon price. All of these kinds of things, every, every single thing had a 2030 target. The big trade off, the grand bargain for all of this in 2016 was a pipeline for Alberta. That's what.

[Jamie Poisson]

Right.

[Arno Kopecki]

That is what made Alberta agree to it. Rachel Notley said, yes, if you give us a pipeline to the coast, we will agree to all these other things. We said, we'll get this pipeline built. And my friends, we are getting this

[Jamie Poisson]

pipeline built and we will not stop until the job is done.

[Arno Kopecki]

And so we did. She got it. Trans Mountain Pipeline is now running, has

[Jamie Poisson]

been for two years and up until Carney's election last April. How were we doing on meeting those 2030 targets? Were we on track to meet them?

[Arno Kopecki]

We were not quite on track. We were doing all right. But I think the best way to think of it is it depended on all of the teeth kicking in. So a lot of the mechanisms that were really going to take effect and force emissions to actually get lower, like the carbon price, which we canceled a year ago, that was just starting to kick in. If the EV mandate had been successful and we actually had ramped up electric vehicles by a greater degree, that would have kicked in. If we had an emissions cap on the oil sands that was supposed to kick in in these last few years leading up to 2030, as it stands, I think we're on track to be about. We're going to lower emissions by about 10% compared to the 2005 baseline, which is dramatically short of the 45% that we were aiming for.

[Jamie Poisson]

You sort of alluded to it in your answer there. But after Carney comes into office last April, how exactly does he begin to take apart these Trudeau era climate policies?

[Arno Kopecki]

Yeah. So one by one, we either cancel them outright or delay them. Obviously, the first thing he did, as everybody knows, was to cancel the consumer carbon price.

[Grainger Advertiser]

With the stroke of a Prime minister, Mark Carney undid the signature environmental policy of 10 years of the Trudeau government,

[Alberta Premier Danielle Smith]

we will be eliminating the Canada fuel charge, consumer fuel charge immediately, Immediately.

[Arno Kopecki]

The EV mandate has also been canceled, but there's still, I think it's a good example. There's still rebates for EVs that Canadians can get up to $5,000 for if you buy an EV. Clean electricity has been watered down and deadlines have been pushed back. And that kind of brings us to today.

[Prime Minister Mark Carney]

And hello, today is a good day for Alberta and it's a good day for Canada. It's an honour to be here with Prime Minister Mark Carney to announce a major step forward in unlocking the enormous potential of Canadian energy.

[Jamie Poisson]

And then talk to me about this new agreement. It's, as I mentioned in the intro, laying the groundwork for building a pipeline to the B.C. coast.

[Prime Minister Mark Carney]

And I'm happy to share with Albertans that we'll be signing an agreement today that clearly sets out a pathway to the construction of a new oil pipeline to Asian markets commencing as early as September 1, 2027. The proposed west coast oil pipeline would transport more than 1 million barrels of oil per day.

[Jamie Poisson]

And a key pillar of the energy agreement last week was around the industrial carbon price, something that, as you mentioned, Trudeau was instrumental mental in establishing in Canada. And what is happening around that?

[Arno Kopecki]

I forgot to mention that one. Another thing Carney canceled was the idea of an emissions cap on oil sands production. That's a pretty cancellation, right? But yes, with respect to the implementation agreement, three main pillars, industrial carbon price, carbon capture, and in exchange for a pipeline. Again. So history is repeating itself in some really profound ways here. The industrial carbon price has been watered down tremendously. It was supposed to be $170 a ton by 2030. Now it's going to be $130 a ton by 2040, saving Alberta's industry partners

[Prime Minister Mark Carney]

approximately $250 billion in compliance costs over the next two decades to 2050. This gives industry the time and certainty needed to plan, invest and deliver real emissions reducing projects without undermining competitiveness.

[Arno Kopecki]

So in all of these things we see that 2040 is sort of the new 2030. Everything's getting pushed back by a decade if it's not being scrapped entirely. And the idea behind the industrial carbon price is simply that if you're a heavy emitter like the oil sands, or if you're a cement factory or other major heavy industry, any amount of carbon that you emit over a certain threshold, you have to pay a price for an industrial carbon price can be effective. Europe has used it to lower emissions dramatically in their heavy industries. But again, it needs to actually have teeth and be high enough to force heavy emitters to pay for their emissions. And this industrial carbon price is better than nothing. And Alberta has agreed to implement it, but it isn't actually kicking in for another 10, 15 years is when the price will actually start to be felt by producers. So it buys them a huge window of time. And meanwhile they're talking about getting the pipeline under construction in 2027.

[Jamie Poisson]

This was all kind of agreed on, contingent on the Pathways project going forward. This is the massive carbon capture and storage project in Alberta's oil sands.

[Alberta Premier Danielle Smith]

And the proposed pipeline depends on that alliance which will achieve emissions reductions equivalent to taking 90% of the vehicles off Alberta roads while generating over $16 billion in GDP as part of this overall package which can create up to 50,000 jobs in Alberta and across Canada.

[Jamie Poisson]

Do you see carbon capture and this project is kind of mitigating some of the criticisms around the kind of fallback on the the carbon pricing.

[Arno Kopecki]

What I think this really reveals is that the the true purpose of carbon capture is to enable an increase in oil production. That's also quite explicit here, even though you have to read between the lines. So their own numbers are that this carbon capture project would capture about 16 megatons of carbon dioxide by 2045. Compare that to how much emissions you would release if you build a pipeline that enables a million barrels a day is 160 megatons. So you're producing 10 times more emissions than you're capturing is the deal here.

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[Jamie Poisson]

Not so friendly reminder that no one who's actually good at their job is the office bully like at all. But we can handle that. For all of the no fluff advice for getting ahead in your career without losing your mind, listen to clock in with Emily Durham wherever you get your podcasts. So I you've laid out how we are absolutely not meeting the 2030 goals that were set out and only really on track to make a fracture a fraction of them. But what about 2050 which was another Pillar of Trudeau's climate goals. The Prime Minister said last week that 2050 is still within reach.

[Alberta Premier Danielle Smith]

What you had today, what we have today is an agreement between the government of Canada and the government of Alberta committing to net zero, 2050, both of us committing to net zero, 2050, not committing in a speech, not committing, rhetorically committing, with a series of investments and commitments and market frameworks that are going to move the province, going to move the country towards low emission and, and to net zero. Net zero.

[Jamie Poisson]

The Canadian Climate Institute and other environmental groups disagree very strongly. And so which is true or more true?

[Arno Kopecki]

Well, yeah, I think there, this absolutely makes it harder to achieve 2050 net zero, not easier. There's just, you know, I think the way for people to think about this in big terms is just all of our climate actions have been pushed back by a decade or more. So when you put off your homework, then you have a massive crunch coming in in that final decade. As 2050 approaches, it's speculative to say whether or not 2050 net zero is achievable. It's just, it's undeniable that this really kicks the ball down the road.

[Jamie Poisson]

The Trudeau government also put up a bunch of regulations around environmental assessments. Right. And so I want to talk to you about some of those now. They really transform Canada's environmental assessment regime for big projects to emphasize consultation with indigenous peoples and science based decision making. And the Kearney government is currently proposing measures that would speed up major projects, making certain projects, including pipelines, reviewable just under the Canada energy regulator. Of course, they say that this is for efficiency, that we have to build these big things to compete globally and to isolate ourselves from the threats south of our border. But what could that mean for how some of these projects are assessed for their environmental impact? And why are people so concerned about that?

[Arno Kopecki]

Yeah, I think the, again, the headline here is we're trying to increase efficiency without being reckless. And so that can be a good thing if you're talking about accelerating clean energy projects, which are also often hampered by layers of bureaucracy. And then it becomes a scary thing. From my perspective, if you're talking about accelerating fossil fuel production and transport through pipelines. And the really frightening thing here is that with respect to pipelines, it puts sole discretion in the hands of the Canada energy regulator. That's the proposal. It hasn't happened yet. But what Carney is now proposing is to say, okay, pipelines will be decided by the Canada energy regulator. Nobody else, Climate Change Canada, Environment Canada, nobody else will really have a say. And the regulator can approve the project before anything about it has been decided. And that I think is quite frightening. Canadians should be afraid of that and push back on that. And I think Carney will get a lot of pushback. We'll see what comes of it.

[Jamie Poisson]

A lawyer from West Coast Environmental Law said that, said that this proposal amounts to, quote an absolute evisceration of Canada's environmental safety net. Would you be inclined to agree with

[Arno Kopecki]

that with respect to the idea of putting pipeline production under Canada energy regulator

[Jamie Poisson]

or I guess any of these projects?

[Arno Kopecki]

You know, I think Canadians are right to be concerned or they, I think they should be concerned. I think we're seeing environmental protection take a back seat to resource extraction. I don't think it is quite a wholesale evisceration yet. I think it's important to remember we're just a year into Carney's first term in office here. A lot of these proposals are still just proposals. In fact, almost all of them are still just proposals. We're all, we're working on a lot of these details. The direction of travel is increasingly clear and alarming. But I do think there are still environmental protections in place and I think Carney is aware of them and acknowledges some of them. You know, another big priority of this government is to protect 30% of the lands and waters here by 2030. They do work quite closely with First nations throughout BC, especially up in the north coast, to protect those lands and waters. And there's a conflict there between some of those protections and the resource extraction that they are trying to accelerate. And I don't know, I don't think it's clear yet where the trade offs are going to land down the road. I think that is what we're watching unfold in front of us in real time.

[Jamie Poisson]

There was another concern flagged by former Environment Minister Stephen Gilbeau, who resigned as you know, from liberal cabinet over Ottawa's MOU with Alberta, but remains in the Liberal caucus. And he's worried that these proposed measures could give the federal cabinet the power to exempt projects from the jeopardy test for species at risk.

[Grainger Advertiser]

That's one of the fundamental elements of

[Arno Kopecki]

our Species At Risk act and Species at Risk protection. If a project jeopardizes the survival of

[Jamie Poisson]

a species, we don't go ahead with that.

[Arno Kopecki]

We won't sacrifice a specific species, whether it's an animal or, you know, vegetable species for one single project.

[Jamie Poisson]

Now we're giving the southern resident killer whales, for example. People have been talking a lot about whales in the last couple of days. Do you share his concerns here?

[Arno Kopecki]

Yes. I live in Vancouver. The Salish Sea is a dear to me. It's a body of water that is precious. The southern resident killer whales are magnificent creatures. What leaps out at me here is especially with respect to this pipeline, which is at the heart of so much of this conversation. A huge part of the opposition to the pipeline isn't even really about climate change. I mean, the emissions are a big part of it. But really, the thing that people are super scared of is the possibility of an oil spill. And even without an oil spill, the damage that all of these oil tankers will introduce acoustically to the marine environment around here, which is a very delicate marine environment that has already been heavily industrialized. And so some of those impacts are exactly what we're worried about. And if you eliminate species protection, then absolutely we are afraid that the creatures that we love that mean so much to us, like the orcas, but certainly not just orcas. There's northern caribou, mountain caribou along the pipeline route. I really would be very scared if we just start ignoring that, for sure.

[Jamie Poisson]

You know, as you've noted, these are still just proposals. But Gilbeau also said that these proposed changes to environmental regulations and review processes goes beyond what former Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper proposed when he was in power. What do you think of that comment?

[Arno Kopecki]

I would respectfully disagree. I have a huge amount of respect for Stephen Gilbeau. I'm really glad that he's saying everything he's saying. And I think the fact that he's allowed to say that within the Liberal caucus indicates partly why I disagree with that idea. I think people forget that Harper. The Harper years were just. Were so dramatic in terms of that government's assault on environmental protection. Stephen Harper and his cabinet launched a crusade against environmental organizations in Canada. They, you know, the. The environment minister himself of the time, Peter Kent, accused environmental groups of laundering money for foreign interests. We could go through a laundry list of the regulatory attacks that the Carver government instituted against environmental protection in this country, and it would be quite a lot longer than what Carney has done so far. So I think Gilbeault. I think Canadians should listen to Guilbeault and should be alarmed. But I don't think that comparison is apt. I mean, for all that Mark Carney has done to accelerate resource extraction, he's also fighting for a carbon price, an industrial carbon price, which is more than Stephen Harper ever did. And he's done a lot of other things to advance clean electricity and the energy transition in tandem with promoting fossil fuel extraction, which, again, is a more holistic approach than what Harper did.

[Jamie Poisson]

I think it sounds like you're making a more nuanced argument here about what Carney is doing. I just want to put you a headline from a piece that you wrote in the Walrus a few months ago. No matter which way you look at it, this is the headline. No matter which way you look at it, Carney has abandoned climate. I mean, square that circle for me because it seems to be at odds with what you just argued.

[Arno Kopecki]

Well, I think we should be allowed to change our views slightly over time. I think I wrote that right after the MoU came out, and with Alberta and promoting a pipeline, I remain. You know, I feel. And it's not about how I feel, but I think a lot of the environmental community, a lot of First Nations, a lot of British Columbians, feel quite betrayed by Carney's aggressive pursuit of a pipeline. That does feel like an abandonment of climate goals. At the same time, I think what I've come to appreciate since then, perhaps what's changed my calculus a little bit, is seeing just how ruthless Alberta's government and the oil patch have been in weaponizing Alberta separatism as a negotiating tactic. Danielle Smith has effectively become an enabler of that threat. And I think I have a bit more appreciation for what Carney is up against in terms of national unity and the global environment that we're dealing with here, with whatever's happening in the U.S. and so, for me, both things are true. I am deeply disturbed by everything Carney is doing on the climate file, and I appreciate why he might feel he has to be doing some of that. And how do you negotiate with that? I wish Carney could negotiate harder, but that's easy for me to say from my seat in my home office in Vancouver when I'm not the one who has to, you know, go toe to toe with these guys.

[Jamie Poisson]

You know, you mentioned the national Electricity strategy. Just tell me more about it and how that fits in the conversation that we're having today.

[Arno Kopecki]

Sure, yeah. So basically, Carney has pledged to double the national electricity grid and especially knock down provincial barriers, because right now, each province is sort of in a silo. We produce our own electricity, and if we want to trade across provincial borders, it's really hard and expensive and inefficient. So Carney's trying to knock that down and to electrify the country, which, if you talk to any climate hawk, the solution is always to electrify everything. So that's great. He's put some money into that. He's said he's going to refer to the major projects office. These things are great. The critique is that he's also opened the window to allowing for gas powered electricity to creep into the picture a bit more. So that's, you know, I think that's a valid critique. I'm hopeful that a lot more will be coming from everything from geothermal to wind and solar, because those are just financially, they make sense and I think Carney knows that too. So the market will somewhat decide how this goes. But yes, this plan is another big part of Carney's plank. It is less aggressive on the clean energy front, on the renewable energy production front than what Trudeau had. But it is probably more aggressive in terms of actually electrifying the country and expanding the grid, which is a huge deal.

[Jamie Poisson]

I think it's been really interesting listening to you today talk about how your position has evolved somewhat. But of course, as you know. Well, I'm sure there are lots of environmentalists in this country that would not give the Prime Minister the kind of, well, leeway. A little bit of leeway or generosity, really, that you just gave him. Right. People who feel like this is a guy who held himself up as a global leader in climate change. He was the former special envoy for climate action and finance. He gave this really famous speech while he was governor of the bank of England about the financial risks of climate change. And they do feel betrayed right now. And could this come maybe not right now, but perhaps even down the line with a political cost for the Prime Minister?

[Arno Kopecki]

I think it will. I think you're absolutely right. A lot of people are feeling deeply betrayed. I have been one of them. What the cost of this will be remains to be seen. You know, we could have a whole conversation about the opening this has created for Javi Lewis and the ndp. But I think, I just want to say, you know, I think the part of the betrayal here is even the conversation we've just been having has really, it's quite a cerebral conversation. We're talking mostly about numbers of quantities and substances that we can't really fathom. You know, megatons of carbon dioxide or billions of barrels of oil. And it just becomes automatically, I'm contributing to it, a very cerebral accounting exercise in moving numbers around on a page. And what has been swept off the page is the actual physical reality of climate change, of wildfires, of floods, of species disappearing. I live in British Columbia. Our snowpack and our glaciers are disappearing, our rivers are drying out, salmon are getting hammered. Farmers are having a harder time than ever. We're about to enter some are here where I think we're going to have a quite a dramatic season of wildfire. We've got an El Nino coming. It is already extremely dry where I live. All of these impacts, I could go on and on. Wherever you live in Canada or the world, you have a local physical effect of climate change. And then Alberta has been really successful at framing this conversation in terms of the profits of oil and the costs of climate policy, which is another way of ignoring the benefits of climate policy and the costs of oil and those costs. I'll be the first to acknowledge that oil generates a lot of profit and has delivered immense good to society. It has powered a lot of things that we rely on, obviously. But the costs are adding up in a really massive fashion. And that side of the ledger has just been completely swept off the page and including in the public discourse. And I think a lot of people in Canada have either sort of naturally forgotten about it because there's so many other things going on. I'm not trying to say this like, I'm not trying to wag my finger at anybody here, but just to acknowledge that, in fact, none of the cost of climate change have gone away. We're about to be reminded of them as summer comes up. And when those costs come in, I think that's when that sense of betrayal, when we see our community getting evacuated because of a wildfire, or when we see see water restrictions coming in because of a drought, or when we see the price of groceries, you know, double or triple because the local wheat harvest got hammered, I could go on and on. That's when that physical sense of betrayal, like, what are we doing about this? We need to collectively respond to this crisis. It's not just a moral or ethical thing. It's also a strategic imperative, I think, to live well in this world. And that's at the heart of this conversation. Or what something that I would like to bring into back into the conversation.

[Jamie Poisson]

Arno, that was great. Thank you. Thank you for being so thoughtful.

[Arno Kopecki]

Thanks, Jamie. It's so great to talk to you.

[Jamie Poisson]

All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thank you so much for the listening. Talk to you tomorrow.

[Arno Kopecki]

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