D (2:26)

Thank you for inviting me.

B (2:29)

So we are not even three months into the year and there have been several big crashes in Alaska, Philadelphia, D.C. this Week in Toronto. And I wonder if we could just go through a few of these incidents, starting with the one in Toronto. For from what we know so far, what do people think happened?

D (2:49)

I think investigators always caution about coming to conclusions very quick until they've done their work. They'll probably look at weather. They're going to look at the aircraft itself and see if there was an issue with the plane. They'll interview the crew and the passengers about what happened. I understand they've been able to recover both black boxes, which will give you both the voice recording about what the pilots were saying and what they were communicating with the tower and the data recorder. That will give them an indication of, you know, the operations of the flight, where it was in the air, how it came down. Lots of experts have talked about how it looked like a regular landing until it didn't.

B (3:30)

Okay, let's do the one in D.C. now. So this was almost a month ago. The U.S. saw its deadliest plane crash in more than two decades.

A (3:38)

Bombshell statement really from the Federal Aviation Administration. PSA Airlines Bombardier CRJ700 regional jet collided in midair with a Sikorsky H60 helicopter, that's a Blackhawk, while on approach to Runway 33 at Reagan National Airport around 9pm local time. PSA was operating flight 5342 for American Airlines that departed Wichita, Kansas.

B (4:04)

All 67 people on board the plane and three military personnel on board the helicopter were killed. There's been a lot of theories about what might have caused the crash. I know the investigation similarly is ongoing, but what is the latest here? Do we have any more information?

D (4:21)

Yeah, I mean, one of the things we're waiting usually our National Transportation Safety Board here in the US is the lead independent agency in these crashes. So what we're waiting for right now is the preliminary report which we expect before the end of the month. The airport that, that these aircraft were operating in some of the most complex and security sensitive airspace in the country. It's a very small area. You've got a lot of air traffic coming in. And one of the things that investigators are looking at is whether or not the helicopter pilots, when they were communicating with the tower, may have been looking at the wrong plane, which may explain why they're also looking at the equipment and the aircraft, the helicopter. Helicopters there are required to fly at a 200 foot altitude. It's a very crowded corridor, very tough space, particularly for the airplane because it was going into a different Runway. There are some indications that the helicopter was maybe 100ft above where it should have been, which in that space is dangerous. One of the things that aviation relies on is predictability. You're hoping everyone is going to follow procedure and process and that's what helps keep, keep people safe. So they're going to look at, you know, if the helicopter was above where it should have been, was there perhaps an issue with the instruments. Were they getting, you know, perhaps bad readings from their instruments that didn't give them accurate readings of what altitude that they were at? It was a clear night that night. You know, one of the things they're also looking at is staffing in the tower. Whether or not there was some in general in that tower, usually there's one position for helicopters to manage helicopter traffic, one position to handle the commercial air traffic that's going into that airport. The night of the crash, that position had been combined. You know, it was a quieter night later in the evening when perhaps there aren't as many helicopters flying. So it's just not clear.

B (6:29)

Yeah, I remember in the aftermath of that really tragic crash, President Trump went on this tear about diversity, equity and inclusion policies and how they might have led to the collision.

C (6:45)

Then my administration will set the highest possible bar for aviation safety. We have to have our smartest people. It doesn't matter what they look like, how they speak, who they are. It matters. Intellect, talent, the word talent. You have to be talented, naturally talented, geniuses. The FAA's diversity push includes focus on hiring people with severe intellectual and psychiatric disabilities. That is amazing. And this is faa.

B (7:15)

Does that hold any water?

D (7:17)

You know, the standards for hiring air traffic controllers have always remained high. They have to take a test. They have to pass a physical, psychological exam. It's a very difficult and stressful job. And they want to make sure the folks that are directing air traffic in some of the busiest airspace in, you know, are there for the job. There was a change, and it was simply to include sort of a biographical narrative of who a person was. But the other standards didn't change. So the idea that DEI or somehow the FAA had lowered the standards for reasons of diversity just isn't true. FAA officials say they they maintain the same high standards they've always had for air traffic.

B (8:13)

I just want to go through a couple of the incidents that we've seen with smaller aircrafts. On Wednesday of this week, two people were killed when two planes collided in midair at an Arizona airport.

D (8:25)

One of the planes hit the ground near a Runway and caught fire. The other aircraft landed safely.

B (8:31)

A commuter plane went missing off the radar earlier this month and was later found crashed in western Alaska. All 10 people, people on board were killed.

C (8:39)

Low altitude alert bearing AIR 445. Check your altitude immediately. Seconds later, during AIR 4 45, Anchorage center radar contact lost.

B (8:51)

Before that, on January 31st, a medical transportation plane crashed into a Philadelphia neighborhood, killing the six people on board and one person on the ground.

C (8:59)

But I just see the plane is getting lower and lower and lower. It nicked the house. When it nit the house, it hit the a couple cars, boom. Into the plaza, into the Dunkin Donuts everywhere. I never seen nothing like that a day in my life. I have never.

B (9:14)

I feel like there's this idea that smaller planes aren't as safe as bigger ones. And is that accurate?

D (9:21)

You know, you have your sort of commercial aircraft that would be your smaller regional jets and your large aircraft that I think most people know about. And they have to meet very stringent standards in their operations. You know, for smaller, what we call general aviation aircraft, you know, that's sort of a different category, and they're probably not as heavily regulated as commercial planes. You know, the pilots may be a little less experienced. That's not to say they're not great pilots. And then in the case of this crash in Arizona, you know, that was a very small airport which didn't have a control tower. So once again, you have to depend on good communication and that people are following, you know, the rules and the procedures that are designed to keep people safe. But for passenger aircraft, you have to think of all the different layers of safety. There are. There are pilots that have to meet certain standards, right? Flight attendants are trained. The aircraft themselves have to meet very stringent standards for safety and what they call airworthiness. You know, that's. Folks have said that's one of the reasons why the aircraft that was involved in the Delta crash in Toronto, right, That's something that dramatic. You know, that people survived. And it's because there are just layers and layers of safety that are built into aircraft that carry large numbers of people.

B (10:43)

And yet these incidents still happen. I'm thinking one that happened just after Christmas in South Korea, where a Boeing 737 operated by Jeju Air killed 179 people. Lori, how are you thinking about this string of crashes? Are crashes more common today?

D (11:00)

You know, it is interesting, and I understand that it's traumatic. The pictures are scary, you know, to lose so many people at one time. But you know what people always say, if you look at the statistics, I guess you're more in danger driving to the airport than you are actually getting on an airplane. One statistic that I found in my research was in the first nine months of 2024, just over 29,000 people here in the US died in traffic crashes. That's more than 100 a day. But I know it's different, right, because it's small numbers of people that are spread out. When you see an airplane cr, it's very scary. But once again, there are systems built in to try and protect people. You know, here in the US for our, you know, for this terrible crash that happened in near Ronald Reagan airport here in D.C. that was the first fatal commercial air crash since 2009. And as you mentioned in your opening, it was the worst air disaster in more than two decades. So it, it is safe to fly. It's safer than any other mode of transportation. But I why people are anxious, Putting.

B (12:14)

Aside comparisons to other modes of transportation, what if you just compared air travel right now to air travel in the past? Let me put this another way. Is it less safe to travel by air than it was five or 10 years ago?

D (12:33)

That's interesting. In the time I've been in the aviation beat there a lot of veteran aviation reporters, some of them are no longer riding, but they talk about a period of time in the 70s, 60s, 70s, 80s, when they were covering crashes several times a year, fatal commercial air crashes several times a year. And in the 90s here in the States, the FAA became very, very concerned about it and they worked very hard to find ways to make air travel safer. And since then, you know, we've had so few crashes and perhaps maybe they're so rare that when we do have one, it's jarring.

A (13:29)

It was the dawn of a new era of space flight.

C (13:32)

Our space program has reached another important milestone. We're going to fly this new rocket.

D (13:37)

Never been flown before, and we got people on it. You know that there are a lot of things that can go Wrong.

A (13:43)

From the BBC World Service, 13 Minutes presents the Space Shuttle.

C (13:48)

I think we've got something that's really going to mean something to the country and the world.

A (13:52)

Listen on the BBC app or wherever you get your podcasts.

B (13:58)

I just want to spend some time now talking about the politics rolling around air safety in the U.S. especially since the inauguration of Trump. Hearing a lot about this big shake up happening with parts of the US Government that are in charge of air safety. Right. Yesterday, the confirmation hearing for Trump's pick for deputy secretary of transportation started. Stephen Bradbury was general counsel at the Transportation Department in Trump's first term. He also worked with the Heritage foundation and played a key role in shaping the transportation section of Project 2025. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit more about him and how you would characterize the hearing that's been taking place so far.

D (14:37)

His hearing was interesting because he was also general counsel at the Department of Transportation. During the Boeing Max crashes, Canada today.

A (14:47)

Joined most of the rest of the world on handling safety concerns with the Boeing 737 Max. Two models of the airliner, the Max 8 and Max are now prohibited from using Canadian airspace. It's in response to the Ethiopian Airlines crash and a second crash by an Indonesian Lion Air Max 8 less than six months ago.

D (15:08)

Several Democratic lawmakers were concerned that during their own investigations of what happened at the FAA and what steps were taken and what sort of signs were missed, the Senate was concerned, it was actually a bipartisan concern that perhaps they had not been forthcoming and providing docum that the Senate needed for its investigations. There was also an investigation on the House side. So there are concerns about that. There are definitely concerns about cutting jobs at the Federal Aviation Administration when you've had all these crashes. Steven Bradbury sought to assure lawmakers that safety is a priority. It's their top priority. We need the latest tools, we need the latest data and data analytics and computer capabilities. I think that is what the Secretary is bringing to bear in looking at the systems and ensuring that they are up to speed, improved, et cetera. And we need the people, the people at FAA and in the department who are capable and knowledgeable about that, but insisted that even when you're trying to make a system safer, you can also perhaps make it less expensive. I don't, maybe that's not the right terms, but he, you know, they're committed to safety, but they also are, you know, this is an administration that is not interested in putting more regulations out there. Right. So this is what's going to be interested going forward. You know, as we, we learn more about what caused these crashes. We know that the system, the technology that runs the air traffic control system relies on a lot of very old systems. You know, they've been trying to update it so that it, you know, it doesn't rely old fashioned radar navigation, but satellite navigation. But it's been slow going.

B (17:05)

These cuts at the faa, they're part of the sweeping cuts led by Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency. I think it's hundreds of FAA workers that have been fired. Now what do we know about who is let go and how that might impact aviation? Are people worried about that?

D (17:26)

I think people are definitely worried about that. Right. We learned that these were all probationary employees, meaning that they were folks that just hired on. They maybe have a little less than a year of service and so can be let go with perhaps less process than more veteran civil servants. The Secretary of Transportation, Sean Duffy and Stephen Bradford, at his confirmation hearing, insisted that these were not safety critical positions. I think lawmakers are very skeptical about that. They've written a number of letters to the secretary asking for more information about what jobs these people did, what criteria you're using to determine whether or not a position is safety critical or not. Is a technician that repairs equipment at a tower, is he safety critical? Well, if you want your equipment to work, perhaps he is. So we're also trying to learn more about the folks that were let go, where the cuts were, and how that might affect the FAA's ability to keep travelers safe.

B (18:48)

I remember a couple years ago now, the chair of the National Transportation Safety Board, Jennifer Hamendi, warned that the American aviation system was under stress after several close calls at airports. And can you tell me more about those concerns and whether they still persist?

D (19:07)

Oh, they, they definitely do. You know, we, in 2023, we had a series of what you call near misses at airports, you know, around the US Incidents where planes got too close to each other, you know, on the ground, taxiing. We had an incident in Austin that was quite scary where a cargo jet almost landed on top of a Southwest jet that was taking off. The cargo jet was landing. And so there were a lot of very distressing events. And I think that's what led Chair Homendy to say that. And the issue is that we have had a shortage of qualified air traffic controller that goes back decades. And they have tried to beef up that workforce, but it's really, really difficult. It's a tough, stressful job. They're very high standards. And so they, they are trying to catch up. You know, I think the union that represents air traffic controllers estimated that we are about 3,000 qualified controllers short of where we need to be. That doesn't mean the system is unsafe. Right. The system continues to function. And, you know, the FAA makes adjustments where they can. If folks have flown out of New York a couple years ago, you know, they have had trouble making sure that they have enough controllers to staff those towers. And so they've asked airlines to voluntarily reduce the number of flights. So airlines have tried to compensate by operating larger aircraft. Right. So they may have fewer flights, but they are operating larger aircraft. But those are sort of the, the things that the FAA is doing to make adjustments to ensure that, you know, the system can keep functioning safely. You know, airlines get frustrated, passengers get frustrated because they, you know, the system, you know, demand for travel has not, you know, has not abated. And people really want to fly. And so that is, I think, something that we're going to be the Trump administration is very committed to finding ways to get more air traffic controllers in the pipeline, finding ways to, you know, update the technology that air traffic controllers use. You know, someone told me that in some towers, you know, the equipment is so old that they still use floppy disks. And you have to imagine, you know, I'm sure some of your listeners don't even know what a floppy disk is. And in fact, some of the younger air traffic controllers that they're bringing in have never seen one. But it's been hard, I think, for the faa. I think the FAA wants to update the equipment, but it's this hard thing where there's, there seems like there's never enough money or they're just because of the budget cycle, they can't get these systems in place. And in a lot of cases, some of their systems, they have to keep these older systems running while they're trying to bring these newer systems online. But sometimes the cost to maintain these old systems, to get parts to find people who know how to fix and maintain them is so expensive, it doesn't leave enough money to pay for upgrades.

B (22:08)

Just Elon Musk specifically. I know that he is talked about revamping that, that air traffic control system, but I think it's worth noting that he's not been on good terms with the FAA in the past. In 2023, the agency proposed fining his rocket ship company, SpaceX, more than a half million dollars for alleged violations related to two rocket launches. And he threatened to sue for regulatory overreach and called on the former head to resign. How is his involvement landing with people in the industry?

D (22:40)

People are concerned about Elon Musk getting involved in the FAA because he's a user of the system. And it seems like a major conflict of interest. You know, once again, I think that lawmakers and the public would welcome a way to update, you know, the air traffic control system. But I think there are also concerns about Elon Musk being involved in that, given that he's, you know, a customer and a user of the system.

B (23:18)

Lori, before we go today, I did want to talk to you about one other final issue that we hear a lot about, and that is Boeing. You've reported on its horrible year. Last spring, 50 people were injured when a 787 Dreamliner on its way from Australia to New Zealand suddenly dropped midair. And in January last year, a panel in the body of a 737 Max plane was blown out during an Alaska Airlines flight. All of these, of course, led to a lot of concern. And where are we at with the investigations around Boeing?

D (23:52)

I think we're still, you know, it's been about a year since that door plug blowout and we're waiting to get the final report on, you know, what happened.

A (24:01)

Photo evidence shows bolts were missing from the door plug, which had been removed to fix rivets that were damaged in, in the production process. That's according to the independent U.S. national Transportation Safety Board report.

D (24:14)

You know, the FAA was criticized for perhaps not watching Boeing as closely. And Mike Whitaker, you know, when he became FAA administrator, there were multiple investigations and audits of Boeing's safety management systems. And so they were put on, I suppose, some kind of corporate probation where they are not allowed to increase product, the 737 Max jet until the FAA is assured that they are doing it safely. There are benchmarks or standards that Boeing has to meet and that the FAA has to sign off on to say that, yes, we believe that you are manufacturing these airplanes safely, that you're following your own standards and safety procedures, and that these jets are safe to fly and operate. So the FAA has put a lot of pressure on Boeing. And it's not just the faa, It. Right. You know, airlines may still be ordering planes, but you want to be sure those planes are safe to operate. You know, I, I remember the CEO of Alaska Airlines, Ben Minicucci, how angry he was that, that this had happened. Right. You know, you put your faith in the company, they're producing safe jets, and then some. Something terrible like this happens. So I think Boeing's got a lot of pressure to turn itself around. I mean, they had the midair blowout. They had the safety issues. They had the issue with the Dreamliner mentioned. There were multiple investigations. They had a very damaging machinist strike. You know, they had to lay off. So the new CEO, Kelly Ortberg, who, who joined Boeing in August, has talked about focusing on their core mission, which is building safe airplanes. And so it's going to be up to him to turn around the company. You know, that Boeing is a major exporter in the U.S. it's a, it's a huge manufacturing giant here. And I think people are hoping that, that Kelly Orper can fix what's wrong with that company.

B (26:17)

Okay, I think that's a good place for us to leave this conversation. Lori, thank you so much for this. Appreciate it.

D (26:23)

Oh, thank you so much.

B (26:33)

All right, that is all for this week. Front burner was produced this week. By Joytha Shangupta, Ali Jaynes, Lauren Donnelly, Cecilia Armstrong, Matt Amha and MacKenzie Cameron. Our YouTube producer is John Lee and Evan Agard is our video producer. Music is by Joseph Shabazin. Our senior producer is Elaine Chao. Our executive producer is Nick McKay Blocos. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you next week.

D (27:04)

For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.