Is Trump overseeing a new 'Red Scare'?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Front Burner – "Is Trump overseeing a new 'Red Scare'?"

Host: Aaron Wary (in for Jayme Poisson)
Guest: Ellen Schrecker, historian of McCarthyism
Date: July 28, 2026

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Theme & Purpose

The episode discusses whether the United States, under the Trump administration, is experiencing a revival of "Red Scare"-style anti-communist sentiment similar to McCarthyism, or if there are critical differences. Through the lens of expert historian Ellen Schrecker, the episode compares the tactics, rhetoric, and consequences of today’s political climate with the Cold War era’s Red Scare, and examines the broader implications for democracy and civil society.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The New "Red Scare": Parallels and Differences

• The Trump administration has revived anti-communist rhetoric, presenting "communism" as an immediate threat, not just a Cold War relic ([00:26]–[01:10]).
• Recent actions include National Security Presidential Memorandum 7 (NSPM7), which calls for investigating "political violence" linked to anti-capitalism, and public reports naming left-wing individuals and groups as subversives ([01:10]–[01:44]).
• Schrecker sees some alarming parallels to McCarthyism:

  “Trump wanted to have the attorney general list all the supposedly subversive organizations in America. And I thought, oh, my God. Back in the McCarthy era, the attorney General's list of subversive organizations played a major role." – Ellen Schrecker [03:16]

• Key difference: Communism in mid-20th-century America, however marginalized, was a real movement; today, Schrecker argues, these threats are largely manufactured for political gain ([03:45]–[04:40]).

2. Political Strategy and Rhetorical Motives

• The anti-communist revival seeks to discredit leftist activism more broadly, not just attack fringe groups ([05:02]–[05:42]):

  “What they're doing is trying to find a way to eliminate left wing criticism in the United States.” – Ellen Schrecker [05:21]

• Schrecker suggests the intent is to undermine left-wing opposition, not genuinely address a threat.
• The administration's directives aim to mobilize law enforcement and intelligence agencies against these groups, moving well beyond rhetoric ([06:00]–[06:41]).

3. When Does Rhetoric Become Policy?

• Schrecker: It becomes consequential “when the people with power decide that it has to become a major front in their political work…in their need to amass power.” ([06:50])
• The episode draws on far-right voices that frame leftism as an existential threat, echoing Cold War propaganda ([07:06]–[07:38]).
• The revival is partly about manufacturing an enemy to rally support and maintain power ([07:38]–[08:13]).

4. Cuba Report and the Resurrection of Blacklists

• State Department report names a wide range of left-leaning Americans and organizations as being connected to “Cuban subversion” ([08:13]–[08:44]).

  “It read like an old document produced in the early 60s by the House Un-American Activities Committee…” – Ellen Schrecker [08:44]

• Schrecker argues these tactics exaggerate the threat and don’t actually resonate with most Americans ([09:34]–[09:54]).

5. Lessons from McCarthyism: History and Consensus

• Background:
  • Cold War “Red Scare” (often called McCarthyism) was powered more by FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover than Senator McCarthy himself ([12:27]–[14:16]).
  • The mechanism was a two-stage process: exposure of alleged subversives, then sanctions (primarily economic and professional) ([15:11]–[16:55]).
• Scope:
  • The net was cast widely: loyalty and security investigations touched academics, industry professionals, and Hollywood ([16:55]–[19:05]).
  • Cooperation from major institutions made McCarthyism so effective and damaging ([19:05]–[19:55]).
• Consensus:
  • The Cold War context, recent WWII victory, and fears of espionage created fertile ground for these purges ([20:21]).

6. Universities: Then and Now

• During McCarthyism: Surveillance and blacklists pressured professors; most self-censored rather than risk attention ([21:00]–[22:13]).
• Today: Schrecker says the threat is “worse than McCarthyism” for two main reasons ([22:46]):
  1. Breadth: The crackdown now targets all forms of dissent in higher education, not just communism.
  2. Impact: The Trump administration uses funding and visa leverage to stifle research, science, and academic freedom.
  • Universities have less autonomy and power; self-censorship and fear prevail as in the 1950s ([22:46]–[25:34]).

7. How Do Red Scares End? Lessons for Today

• Why McCarthyism Faded:
  • “The witch hunters ran out of witches”—public interest faded, especially as victims were less prominent ([25:55]).
  • Journalistic exposure (Edward R. Murrow), key legal moments (Army-McCarthy hearings, Joseph Welch's famous rebuke), and the rise of civil rights activism shifted the nation's focus ([27:11]–[28:04]).
• Potential for Today:
  • Resistance within academia is growing: some leaders are refusing to cooperate with government overreach ([29:00]–[30:00]).
  • The biggest challenge is the current alignment of government powers behind this crackdown ([30:00]–[31:48]):

    “If American democracy can survive the MAGA onslaught, I think we'll be okay. But it's a very big but.” – Ellen Schrecker [31:33]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Modern Anti-Communism:

  “There are still Democrats around, but there aren't really any communists and they're no threat whatsoever.” – Ellen Schrecker [04:18]

• On the End Goal:

  “What they're doing is trying to find a way to eliminate left wing criticism in the United States.” – Ellen Schrecker [05:21]

• On the Difference Today:

  “It's a much broader attack. McCarthyism really only was looking for communists... Today, it's looking at everything that could possibly be a way to punish higher education.” – Ellen Schrecker [22:46]

• Reflecting on Opposition:

  “We have to really think about ordinary citizens fighting back, as they have done, say, against ICE in Minneapolis. Things are different. There is opposition. There are politicians who are willing to speak out. There aren't enough of them.” – Ellen Schrecker [29:55]

• Famous Historic Moment:

  “Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?” – Joseph Welch to Joseph McCarthy (quoted by Schrecker) [27:50]

• On the Stakes Today:

  "If American democracy can survive the MAGA onslaught, I think we'll be okay. But it's a very big but. And everybody has to realize that… their lives are going to be very much affected if this MAGA movement continues.” – Ellen Schrecker [31:33]

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Timeline with Key Timestamps

• 00:26–01:10 – Introduction: Trump administration's anti-communist agenda
• 03:03–04:40 – Schrecker lays out parallels (and a key difference) between McCarthyism and today
• 05:02–05:42 – Discussion of rhetorical strategies and end goals
• 08:13–08:44 – Analysis of the Cuba subversion report and blacklists
• 12:27–14:16 – Historical context: Origins and mechanics of McCarthyism
• 16:55–19:55 – Breadth of McCarthy-era purges and effects on academia and industry
• 22:46–25:34 – Why today’s academic climate is “worse than McCarthyism”
• 25:55–28:04 – How the last Red Scare ended
• 29:00–31:48 – Growing resistance and the dangers facing American democracy

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Conclusion

The episode draws a detailed comparison between historic anti-communist campaigns and contemporary politics, demonstrating both alarming similarities and new, potentially more damaging dynamics. While Schrecker acknowledges echoes of McCarthyism, she underscores that today’s climate attacks a far wider array of dissent, often for raw political gain, and with potentially graver consequences for academic freedom and democracy. Yet, she notes there is more open opposition and hope than during the original Red Scare—provided it’s not too late for democracy to push back.

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Transcript

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[Ellen Schrecker]

This is a CBC podcast.

[Aaron Wary]

Hi, I'm Aaron Wary in for Jamie. You may have noticed that the Trump administration has been talking about communism lately a lot. Not as a historical evil, but as a living threat to the United States. The Bolshevik takeover of the Democrat Party is in full swing.

[Advertisement Voice]

We have literal self proclaimed communists who

[Ellen Schrecker]

are winning elections and who are claiming

[Advertisement Voice]

to be the new leadership of the Democrat Party.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

I think it's the biggest threat to our nation there is, maybe since our founding. That includes World War I, World War II, September 11, it includes the Pearl harbor attack.

[Aaron Wary]

And these aren't just words. The administration has issued orders like national security Presidential Memorandum 7, which directs federal agencies to investigate networks it says are funding or facilitating political violence and identifies anti capitalism as a driving force. Secretary of State Marco Rubio recently convened representatives from more than 60 countries for a summit on what the administration calls the resurgence of far left political terrorism. And the State Department has published an extraordinary report on alleged Cuban subversion, one which names prominent American left wing organizations and individuals, including the Democratic Socialists of America, broadcaster Amy Goodman and streamer Hasan Piker. For some experts, this is reminiscent of a previous era of American history, the red scare and McCarthyism. Today we're going to hold this current political moment up against the last one and ask whether the United States has entered a new red scare. Ellen Schrecker is one of the foremost Historians of McCarthyism in the United States and the author of several books on the subject, including many are the McCarthyism in America. Ellen, thanks for joining us.

[Ellen Schrecker]

Thank you for having me.

[Aaron Wary]

So Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson has warned that communism is on our shores.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

Look, we live in dangerous times. We're fighting communism on our own shores. And that, quote, the barbarians are in the gate.

[Aaron Wary]

The Trump administration has created new laws and directives which interpret left wing activism through the prism of national security and even terrorism.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

Last November, the State Department designated four violent far left extremist groups as foreign terrorist organizations and there will be more designations soon.

[Aaron Wary]

What would you say given all that to those who say this has the makings of a new red scare?

[Ellen Schrecker]

Well, it does and it doesn't. There are a lot of similarities. I read through that National Security Memo number seven and discovered that Trump wanted to have the attorney general list all the supposedly subversive organizations in America. And I thought, oh, my God. Back in the McCarthy era, the attorney General's list of subversive organizations played a major role. I don't think it's going to happen again that way. I'm often asked, is it going to happen again? And I usually say, yes, but not the same way. And now I usually say, and today it's worse. We'll get into that. I do believe McCarthyism differs enormously in that there was, quote, unquote, communism in existence in the United States. It wasn't a threat. It was a small and very beleaguered political group that came under pressure during the Cold War because it was a useful political tool, just like it is today for the Republican Party to attack Democrats as soft on communism. There are still Democrats around, but there aren't really any communists and they're no threat whatsoever.

[Aaron Wary]

Right. I was just going to say because it does seem, you know, this talk of communism does feel like a throwback to, to the Cold War and something that might not really resonate with newer generations of Americans. Why do you think this rhetoric still has some appeal to Donald Trump and the American right?

[Ellen Schrecker]

I think because it was there on the shelf. I mean, my gosh, they have an Attorney General's list and then look, there were congressional hearings. Looking for what? I think they're not going to get all that much clout and mileage out of attacking this little ghost movement that doesn't exist. What they're doing is trying to find a way to eliminate left wing criticism in the United States.

[Aaron Wary]

That's what you essentially feel is the end goal here.

[Ellen Schrecker]

Yes,

[Aaron Wary]

Politicians to state the obvious, say inflammatory things all the time. But this might now go beyond rhetoric. I mentioned NSPM7 in the intro.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

That directs, for the first time in American history, all of our law enforcement and intelligence agencies to work together to disrupt, identify, defund, debank, arrest and prosecute these political terrorists that are operating in our country.

[Aaron Wary]

There was Marco Rubio's political terrorism summit.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

For far too long, however, our counterterrorism doctrine has had a blind spot. A blind spot when it comes to extremist violence from the political left. Even today, the very idea that fear far left terrorism could be a serious threat is treated as a right wing fever dream, or worse, as a dangerous fascist conspiracy.

[Aaron Wary]

Historically, when does something like this cease to be rhetoric and become something more than that, something more consequential?

[Ellen Schrecker]

When the people with power decide that it has to become a major front in their political work, as it were, in their need to amass power.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

Left wing terrorism always ends in bloodshed, misery and suffering. It only can travel in one direction. There's no point at which the left wing terrorist is satisfied with his gains and ceases progressing. Because communism is the enemy of free people everywhere.

[Ellen Schrecker]

Everywhere in the world.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

Never works. It's the enemy of the Constitution. Above all, it's the enemy of July 4, 1776.

[Ellen Schrecker]

They need to find a target. What are they? They can't attack millionaires, billionaires. I mean the people would join them if they did that. But they are doing, you know, they're just accumulating power and in Trump's case, money for themselves. And how do you put get people to go along with them and you know, certainly the first or the second red scare, the Cold War red scare was quite effective. So maybe they think they can just go back to history. I'm not sure they can.

[Aaron Wary]

Following that summit that Marco Rubio hosted, the State Department released a roughly hundred page report describing Cuba as a center of 21st century communist subversion. The document mentions dozens of well known Americans and organizations, as I said, the Democratic Socialists of America, Black Lives Matter, Amazon labor union, Amy Goodman, Hasan Piker, as well as elected politicians, Congresswoman Maxine Waters and Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass. What do you make of that document?

[Ellen Schrecker]

It read like an old document produced in the early 60s by the House UN American Activities Committee that was trying to whip up anti communism after the end of McCarthyism. I could have changed the names of the organizations, but it's that kind of listing of organizations, pulling them out of context, attesting to giving them much more power and influence than they have and trying to resurrect a subversive book, Bogeyman or Scarecrow. And I don't think it's working.

[Advertisement Voice]

Do Republicans really think that this stuff is going to happen?

[Ellen Schrecker]

No, they don't.

[Advertisement Voice]

They're trying to scare people because they don't want us talking about the fact that we all have a right to health care in this country. So they want to call it communist.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

The caricature is you're a communist who's

[Ellen Schrecker]

going to nationalize the industries.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

You're going to take over Goldman Sachs.

[Aaron Wary]

I'm actually coming on this podcast to let you know that it's now my podcast.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

Wait, what?

[Ellen Schrecker]

It didn't work? I would say when Ron DeSantis tried to make it central to his campaign for the Presidency Back in 2023, 24, he just gave up. Because the American people, I don't think really are concerned about Cuban espionage. In the United States, it's just not very high on people's lists.

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[Aaron Wary]

We've talked about McCarthyism. We've mentioned it several times here already. This is probably a good spot to sort of go back to that history and explain it, because McCarthyism is probably a term some people have heard without really knowing the history. Can you talk to me about Joseph McCarthy, the Red Scare and what McCarthyism actually was?

[Ellen Schrecker]

McCarthyism actually was very seriously misnamed. What I consider McCarthyism is what you could accurately call the Cold War Red Scare or the second Red Scare, but we should call it the Cold War War Red Scare because it wouldn't have existed without the Cold War. After all, that had an enemy, right? The Soviet Union. And Communism was in fact a movement that did have ties in the United States and around the world with the Soviet Union. And I would say it was designed to eliminate all the influence of the individuals, the ideas and the organizations that had anything to do with the Communist Party in the United States. And there was a Communist Party. It had at its peak maybe 75 to 100,000 members but it certainly couldn't have mounted a revolution and never tried to and never thought it would.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

The question is, have you ever been a member of the Communist party? In the federal court in New York, trial begins for 11 of the 12 communist leaders who are charged with a conspiracy to teach and advocate the forcible overthrow of the US Government. Fear of Communists subversive activities has developed into hysterical frenzy which grows daily investigating alleged Communist influence and infiltration in the moving picture industry. Philip Jessup, who flew home to testify, bitterly denies charges of Wisconsin Senator McCarthy who accused him of having an unusual affinity for communist causes. Alger Hiss, former high state departmental official, is branded a Communist spy by an American jury after a sensational trial.

[Ellen Schrecker]

If we wanted to give it a name, however, of an individual, I'd nominate J. Edgar Hoover, the director of the FBI, who I think really created not just the notion of a communist enemy and was able to flesh it out with examples and scary moments of, you know, Communist sailors owned merchant ships sinking them in the middle of New York harbor or something.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

The Communist Party of the United States is a fifth column if there ever was one. It is far better organized than were the Nazis in occupied countries prior to their capitulation. They are seeking to weaken America just as they did in their era of obstruction when they were aligned with the Nazis. Their goal is the overthrow of our government.

[Ellen Schrecker]

Hoover really was if any one single individual was the creator of the machinery, the mechanism through which McCarthyism, that red scare operated. And it operated in accordance with a two stage procedure. The first stage was exposure, identifying the individuals or organizations that were a threat, which is what Rubio's rather detailed presentation in fact was doing exposing the so called Cuban threat in the United States. The second stage was the imposition of sanctions on these supposedly dangerous subversive people and organizations. And that was done mainly through economic sanctions. People lost their jobs. We were not yet, let me say not yet. But it could come at this stage of during McCarthyism. Too much in the way of criminal prosecutions, there is no doubt as to

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

wear a real Communist loyalty dress. Their allegiance is to Russia, not the United States. Communism in reality is not a political party. It is a way of life, an evil and malignant way of life. It reveals a condition akin to disease that spreads like an epidemic. And like an epidemic a quarantine is necessary to keep it from infecting this nation.

[Aaron Wary]

Was it membership in the Communist Party attending a meeting? Like how wide a net were they throwing?

[Ellen Schrecker]

They were throwing as wide a net as they could. Often the FBI had programs, one of which they used within to identify teachers and professors. They would go to the president of a college, for example, and slip them a sheet of paper with a list of a professor's affiliations with the these supposed front groups. And that would be enough for that professor, especially if he or she didn't have tenure, to just not be renewed the next year. So we actually do not know how many people got fired, lost their jobs, were blacklisted because of these kinds of actions on the part of the FBI. The FBI was also feeding names to congressional committees, to the House UN American Activities Committee, the sort of grandfather of all the anti communist McCarthyist groups, to the more sedate as it were, Senate Internal Security Subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee, and also of course to Joseph McCarthy's committee. Until McCarthy himself sort of self destructed in a way that is, I'm afraid, all too reminiscent of what goes on day to day in the White House. Former FBI agents went into business. They became blacklisters, professional blacklisters. They put out a magazine called Red Channels, or it was sort of a pamphlet, a booklet that listed entertainment industry figures and their front groups.

[Advertisement Voice]

And

[Ellen Schrecker]

interestingly enough, everybody whose name was in this organization, Red Channels tended not to be hired within the entertainment industry. But it's that cooperation, that collaboration by the main institutions of civil society that made McCarthyism so powerful. And that's what we have to realize today as well.

[Aaron Wary]

On that institutional consensus. The American academic and author Corey Robin has cited estimates that something like 40% of the American workforce was ultimately subject to some form of loyalty or security investigation. How, how did you know what we now call McCarthyism gain such consensus? Was it just that backdrop of the Cold War? What was it that made this so broad?

[Ellen Schrecker]

It was certainly the Cold War, there's no question about that. You have to think of what the United States was like and it sort of explains McCarthyism, maybe even in a way today. We just won World War II. We were all powerful, we had the bomb. Turned out the Russians got the bomb too, through communist espionage. Never forget that. And so there was a anti communist scenario out there within universities that a communist teacher or communist professor would indoctrinate his or her students with Marxist Leninism in class. Well, if you've ever taught, if you could ever indoctrinate your students, if you could ever get your students to read their assignments. Assignments, you were lucky. This was taken very seriously, even though it was not true. And what was interesting is that during the Cold War Red Scare, when supposed subversives were being questioned both by congressional committees or the FBI or their own institutions. They were never asked about their teaching and research. It was always assumed, and it was true, that they didn't proselytize in class, that they didn't bias their research because they would have been found out. It wouldn't have worked, Let alone the fact that you can't teach a student anything if he or she doesn't want to learn.

[Aaron Wary]

Yeah. We did want to ask specifically about universities, because this is obviously an area you've studied closely. Today, the US Federal government can threaten billions in research funding. We've seen foreign academics testify that they've stopped speaking publicly or attending conferences. Yeah, candidly, my colleagues have even had experiences on this show with American academics that have talked privately about being less than willing to speak candidly on the record. You've actually described what's happening to American higher education today as, quote, worse than McCarthyism. Why is that?

[Ellen Schrecker]

Two main reasons. One, it's a much broader attack. McCarthyism really only was looking for communists. I mean, they scared a lot of other people. It spread, but it was directed against communism, which really did exist. They destroyed it, but nonetheless, it was just against a group of people and their political affiliations. That was it. Today, it's looking at everything that could possibly be a way to punish higher education. It's not just forcing universities to fire people, but it's, as you pointed out, clamping down and withholding enormous amounts of money and putting a stop to a lot of basic science. I mean, what in the world is the Trump administration doing here? They are really destroying American science as it were, eating our seed corn by not letting foreign students come into the country, Things like that. It's just crazy. But the other thing is that universities are much less powerful. The 1950s and the 1960s were what has been called the golden age of higher education. And just as McCarthyism was shrinking the political spectrum on American campuses and leading to an enormous amount mainly of self censorship. Not so much overt censorship, which is what we're seeing today, but self censorship and a similar refusal to get involved in some teach a controversial course. You know, I interviewed somebody who was in French history, I think, and he said he just stopped teaching about the French Revolution. It was too controversial. You know, that kind of thing, I think, is happening today. And it happened during the McCarthy period. People just pulled back from being political.

[Aaron Wary]

We've spent a lot of time talking about what happens during these periods, what we've called red scares. But we do want to ask about how they end for you, what was actually required to end the last Red Scare? And do you take any lessons from that moment that might apply today?

[Ellen Schrecker]

What caused the end of McCarthyism is clearly a number of things, just as there were a number of reasons us historians never going to give you one answer. We believe in nuance and complication. But anyhow, there were a number of reasons. One of the most important one was that the witch hunters ran out of witches, especially witches that would bring them headlines. Who's going to be really that interested in a suburban housewife who sent money to prisoners of war in France or something? It just wasn't the kind of thing that was going to get on the front pages. Not like a Hollywood screenwriter or atomic spy, you know, but so they ran out of witches, you know, everything contributed. Yes. Edward R. Murrow's television programs on McCarthy's craziest victims and how McCarthyism, you know, hurt innocent people, which it did, helped.

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine and remember that we are not descended from fearful men.

[Ellen Schrecker]

Certainly, though, the Army McCarthy hearings were where the very clever Boston lawyer Joseph Welsh turns to McCarthy as he's smearing one of Welsh's law partners and says,

[Historical/Political Voice or Archival Audio]

let us not assassinate this lad further. Senator. Look, look, you have done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?

[Ellen Schrecker]

And pulls the mask off McCarthy himself. But that was occurring in the spring of 1954. And something else was occurring as well. In the spring of 1954, the Supreme Court was about to hand down its Brown vs Board of Education ruling that made segregation illegal in United States public schools. And that really changed American society. It ignited an already existing civil rights movement. And as the civil rights movement grew, it could no longer be ignored. And so what drove McCarthyism from the front pages were all those ordinary citizens who were marching, walking to work in Montgomery, Alabama, during the Montgomery bus boycott, or the college students who sat down at a soda fountain in Greensboro, North Carolina. All of the things that began the civil rights movement and made McCarthyism and the threat of communism really irrelevant. So it wasn't because of opposition to McCarthyism within civil society. And that seems to be beginning to happen now. We're seeing some university presidents saying no, when Trump threatens to pull Harvard's research money for billions of dollars away, saying, no, we're not going to play your games. You can't take over whole departments and appoint outside monitors. Thank you very much. They are beginning to stand up to Trump's threats in a way that pretty nearly no academic institutions did during the McCarthy period. And so we have to really think about ordinary citizens fighting back, as they have done, say, against ICE in Minneapolis. Things are different. There is opposition. There are politicians who are willing to speak out. There aren't enough of them. What's happened is that the system, the political system, Congress and the Supreme Court are very much under the thumb of the Trumpian MAGA section of the Republican Party. And it may or may not be too late to salvage our democratic system. I mean, the threat is much greater than McCarthyism ever was. If American democracy can survive the MAGA onslaught, I think we'll be okay. But it's a very big but. And everybody has to realize that they're. Their lives are going to be very much affected if this MAGA movement continues.

[Aaron Wary]

Ellen Trekman, we thank you for all of this nuance and context. Thanks for joining us.

[Ellen Schrecker]

Thank you for having me.

[Aaron Wary]

That's all for today. I'm Aaron Wary. Thanks for listening.

[Ellen Schrecker]

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