Front Burner – "Mark Carney: climate friend or foe?"

Podcast: Front Burner (CBC)
Host: Jamie Poisson
Guests: Max Fawcett (Lead Columnist, Canada’s National Observer), John Woodside (Ottawa bureau chief, Canada’s National Observer)
Date: December 5, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into the environmental track record and policy direction of Mark Carney, former Bank of England governor and current Prime Minister of Canada. As Carney faces criticism and resignations within his government over substantial rollbacks on climate policy—including scrapping the carbon tax and freezing EV mandates—the debate turns to whether he has betrayed his earlier climate commitments, or if he’s executing a pragmatic, strategic long game on climate action. Max Fawcett and John Woodside, both climate-focused journalists, unpack Carney’s philosophy, the tensions in current policy moves, and the implications for Canada’s climate leadership.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mark Carney’s Climate Philosophy Pre-Politics

• Financial Framing of Climate Risk

  • Carney’s 2015 speech as Bank of England governor was pivotal, marking climate change as a systemic financial risk.
    • “He was bringing the business community into it and saying, look, even if you don't take this seriously...it has a material impact on your long term future. You need to take this seriously.”
      – Max Fawcett (03:15)
  • Central bankers post-2008 crisis searched for systemic risks; Carney positioned climate as the next major threat.
    • [04:00] Mark Carney (clip): “This need to manage emerging mega risks is, is as important as ever...”

• Role as UN’s Special Climate Envoy and the GFANS Initiative

  • Carney formed the Glasgow Financial Alliance for Net Zero (GFANS), mobilizing trillions in private investments for green transitions—but now considered “all but collapsed.”
  • Focus on climate as profit opportunity and risk management, urging government to de-risk investments for private sector participation.
    • “The message...was, this is a tremendous profit opportunity. The energy transition is your chance to realize enormous profits through investing.”
      – John Woodside (05:11)

2. Campaign & Leadership: Shifting Tone and Policy Reversals

• Climate Takes Backseat in Campaigning
  • Greater focus on shielding Canada from U.S. shifts under Trump; climate referenced mainly as future economic opportunity.
    • [08:23] Carney (clip): “Comprehensive new approach to make Canada the world's leading energy superpower.”
• Erosion of Platform Commitments
  • Promised environmental policies (e.g., EV incentives, peatland protection) are being undermined or reversed.
    • “You could run through the list. I mean, there's quite a few examples where I don't think the promises that were made are being left up...”
      – John Woodside (09:03)

3. Policy Moves as Prime Minister: Is Carney Consistent?

• Key Rollbacks:
  • Consumer carbon tax scrapped.
  • Electric vehicle mandate paused.
  • Oil and gas emissions cap and clean electricity regulations suspended, especially in Alberta.
  • Potential exemptions to tanker bans and pipeline approvals.
• Rationale:
  • Carney’s approach sheds the Trudeau-era preference for prohibitions, focusing instead on market-driven mechanisms and industrial carbon pricing.
    • “He made it clear that he was not going to be wedded to the way they did climate politics...”
      – Max Fawcett (11:28)
    • [11:53] Carney (clip): “Budget 2025 will introduce our climate competitiveness strategy with a focus on results over objectives, on investments over prohibition. We will build sustainably.”

4. The Industrial Carbon Tax: Silver Bullet or Not?

• Fawcett’s Argument:
  • The industrial carbon tax is effective (and politically durable) because it lifts the heavy load of emissions reduction without directly impacting consumers.
    • “It does the most work with the least political friction, let's say...”
      – Max Fawcett (14:02)
  • Industrial carbon price could deliver more emission reductions than piecemeal regulations—a $130/ton price projected to cut 90 megatons in Alberta alone.
• Woodside’s Counterpoint:
  • The industrial carbon price is not yet a done deal—current agreements only lay the groundwork for negotiation.
    • “The government traded a lot of environmental policies on a condition that we will negotiate a stronger one, but I don't think we actually have a stronger one yet.”
      – John Woodside (16:14)
  • Warns of political vulnerability (“post-truth environment”), echoing risks that sank consumer carbon pricing.

5. Cabinet Resignation & Allegations of Betrayal

• Former Environment Minister Steven Guilbeault’s Resignation

  • Guilbeault stepped down over the Alberta MoU, citing the government's backtracking (e.g., allowing carbon credits for enhanced oil recovery after previously pledging not to).
    • [18:57] John Woodside: “What happened here was that as Carney was preparing its budget...Guilbeault was put in charge of negotiating with May...and budget day comes. The carbon capture tax credit is there, and it says it will not be used for enhanced oil recovery. So May got what she wanted. ... Mere weeks later in the MoU...enhanced oil recovery will be in the tax credit.”
    • [22:11] Elizabeth May (clip): “And that's where I went wrong.”
    • “Guilbeault quits, you know, basically feeling like he can't defend this, this government's decision here.”
      – John Woodside (22:23)

• Political Calculus and Durability of Policy

  • Fawcett argues that Carney’s industrial-carbon-price approach is designed to be more durable, “harder for a future conservative government to repeal” thanks to business buy-in and contract-based enforcement (carbon contracts for difference).
    • “If a future government kills that price, they pay a massive penalty. So there would be a probably billion dollar, billions of dollars in penalties...”
      – Max Fawcett (24:46)

6. The Pragmatic “Art of the Possible”—and Its Limits

• Woodside's Critique:

  • Accepts political constraints but warns that true climate leadership means expanding what is possible and honestly communicating the stakes.
  • Accuses Carney's government of “policy shredding and fossil fuel boosterism,” arguing Canada is falling behind global climate leaders.
    • “Experts have described it [decarbonized oil] to me as scientifically fraudulent.”
      – John Woodside (27:13)
    • “Canada is already behind...Canada, by staying on the fossil fuel path is with the United States and Russia and Saudi Arabia.”
      – John Woodside (28:18)
    • “If Carney privately has an idea here, he needs to start communicating it if he wants the public to come along with him.”
      – John Woodside (29:20)

• Fawcett's Defense:

  • Canada’s industrial carbon pricing distinguishes it from major fossil fuel producers and is a realistic path given political headwinds.
    • “He is not shouting it from the rooftops. He's just doing the work. And I think that is probably in the end the more effective approach. But time will tell.”
      – Max Fawcett (30:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Carney’s Caution (2015, as Bank of England governor):
  “The challenges currently posed by climate change pale in significance compared with what might come ... why isn't more being done today to address it?”
  [01:23] Mark Carney

• Pragmatic Justification of Policy Shifts:
  “This will make a difference to hard pressed Canadians. But it is part of a much bigger set of measures...”
  [11:07] Mark Carney, on killing the consumer carbon tax

• On Political Durability:
  “If a future government kills that price, they pay a massive penalty. So there would be a... billions of dollars in penalties. That is what will keep them in the game on this.”
  [24:46] Max Fawcett

• On the Atmosphere vs. Politics:
  “There is a very, very real atmospheric reality where emissions keep accumulating, the planet keeps getting hotter. And the longer you put off this transition, the more at risk Canada is of falling behind.”
  [27:00] John Woodside

Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |---|---| | 01:23 – 01:45 | Carney’s 2015 climate risk speech as a touchstone | | 03:15 – 04:58 | Fawcett on Carney’s reframing of climate as a financial risk | | 05:11 – 07:25 | Woodside on GFANS and Carney’s profit/finance-driven approach | | 09:03 – 10:22 | Broken or threatened campaign/environmental pledges | | 11:53 – 12:04 | Carney’s “climate competitiveness strategy”—focus shift | | 14:02 – 15:35 | Detailed breakdown of why the industrial carbon tax is central | | 18:57 – 22:11 | Guilbeault’s resignation, enhanced oil recovery controversy | | 24:46 | Durability of the industrial carbon price (contracts for difference) | | 27:00 – 29:20 | Woodside’s tough critique—Canada already falling behind, need for vision | | 29:23 – 30:50 | Fawcett—Canada's industrial carbon price as a pragmatic "middle way" |

Conclusion

The episode offers a nuanced debate on whether Mark Carney’s policy reversals amount to a betrayal or are a reflection of realistic, politically constrained climate action. Fawcett presents Carney as consistent in his market-based pragmatism and attentive to what can actually last given Canada’s political landscape. Woodside, meanwhile, argues that those constraints are being accepted rather than challenged, and the cost may be Canada sacrificing climate leadership just as the world accelerates away from fossil fuels. The public and political fallout, including Guilbeault’s dramatic resignation, underscores the stakes: is incremental, business-friendly climate action enough in a fast-warming world? Both guests agree time will tell.